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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Why old people smell

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Author Topic: Why old people smell
Marnie
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Okay...what does this have to do with lyme? You'll see...hang on.

Why do old people smell?

It has to do with 2-Norenal - which is generated when w7 unsaturated fatty acids are ***oxidatively*** degraded.

2-nonenal is generated by the oxidative degradation of 7 unsaturated fatty acids

(Can't link here...nature.com or type in the above into a search engine to read the abstract)

Why would persons (over age 40! Yikes.) oxidize the VERY PROTECTIVE w7 fatty acid (Palmitoleate/ Palmitoleic acid)?!

Palmitoleate (w7 fatty acid)is made this way:

palmitic acid (in coconut oil, etc.) + delta-9 desaturase (= Stearoyl-CoA desaturase ) =

Palmitoleic acid (***Omega 7 fatty acid***) = palmitoleate.

This acid (Palmitoleate) ***blocks the uptake of fats*** which results in resistance to type II diabetes and atherosclerosis.

So why rid a good thing? Geezeup goes the possibility of late onset diabetes and atherosclerosis!

Are older persons' bodies switching to using fats for energy (ketones) instead of glucose because some intracellular pathogen is gobbling up all their glucose?

Is the block offand now fats are taken up to supply energy to the starving cell?

Scary...but cancer cells (HeLa with DNA damage) look to flip the switch too.

We do know the ketogenic diet (high-fat, adequate-protein, low-carbohydrate )can be brain beneficial (although it can do a number on the kidneys)!

Middle ageweve all seen our older family members at a healthy weight (or today - overweight), but as they age and approach death, weve all seen them waste away and their body weight drops significantly.

I think much older persons maybe using their stored fats (triglycerides in adipose cells) to make energy (ATP) i.e., ketones. This might be a protective move.

Backing up

Palmitic acid, or hexadecanoic acid is the most common fatty acid found in animals, plants

and microorganisms!

Oh, oh.

It is a major component of the oil from palm trees (palm oil, palm kernel oil and coconut oil).

BTW Macadamia nut oil is a rich source of palmitoleic acid, which is a monounsaturated fatty acid

whereas coconut oil is rich in palmitic acid

which, via the help of delta-9 desaturase (= Stearoyl-CoA desaturase), makes palmitoleic acid

(which blocks the uptake of fats and leads to resistance to late onset diabetes and atherosclerosis).

What IF Bb needs and is stealing our glucose to make (his) palmitic acid so we cant make Palmitoleic acid and block the uptake of fats -> increased chance of diabetes and atherosclerosis?

***Does Bb (like us!) convert excess carbohydrates to palmitic acid?***

Palmitic acid can generate ATP (his and ours):

Palmitic Acid = 16 carbons = 8 acetyl groups

Number of turns of fatty acid spiral = 8-1 = 7 turns

ATP from fatty acid spiral = 7 turns and 5 per turn = 35 ATP.

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/622overview.html

Caprylic acid (also in VCO) is converted in the liver to a ketone called BHB which enters the blood stream and can cross the BBB where it enters the cells' citric acid cycle and generates ATP. (That's how the "medicinal food" for AD called Axona works.)

Given that Palmitic Acid and caprylic acid are both in VCO...that might be a good thing to generate a lot of ATP.

Back up...remember palmitic acid had 8 acetyl groups...

Pyruvate makes/is converted into acetyl CoA .

Acetyl CoA's job is to take the carbon atoms within the acetyl group (from palmitic acid) to the citric acid cycle (Krebs cycle) to be oxidized for energy production.

That might be how Bb is making HIS ATP.

Pyruvate (converts to acetyl CoA) protects brain cells from amyloid beta.

Amyloid beta (which our liver makes) suppresses acetylcholine.

But when amyloid beta joins with another protein called APOE (4 is the bad kind, 3 is good)...it is carried off and degraded.

Pyruvate is converted into acetyl CoA...remember?

Acetyl CoA has another job too...It works WITH HMG CoA synthase to make mevalonate.


The mevalonate pathway is the HMG CoA reductase pathway...the cholesterol pathway...which IS a pathway Bb takes to build "his" cell walls.

Note...cholesterol is used to build OUR cell walls too!

See a picture of it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mevalonate_pathway

And statins (and Mg and berberine) lower cholesterol.

Statins and Mg INHIBIT HMG CoA - REDUCTASE.

Sooooif Bb is stealing OUR glucose to make his palmitate (in VCO) -> 8 acetyl this may hinder our ability to convert palmitate to

palmitoleic acid which is a good acid and one that blocks the uptake of fats and helps us resist diabetes and atherosclerosis.

Macadamia nut anyone?!

Interesting reading about that nut!

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Marz
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I'll have to read a couple of times before this sinks in Marnie, but you're answering a question I've often wondered about.

I've noticed that smell in the elderly--usually women--and in terminal cancer patients, but the cancer smells different to me. In old people, to me it smells like old talcum powder.

I'm wondering if I should be asking people if I smell. At least now I know what will help.

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Razzle
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Any other sources besides palm oil? I'm allergic to palm/coconut.

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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Kudzuslipper
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Sea buckthorne seed oil. New chapter markets it as critical omega 7.
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Lymeorsomething
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As a Magnum PI fan, Marnie brought back some good memories with her Macadamia nuts idea.

John Hillerman Commercial for Mauna Loa Macademia Nuts-1989
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vRmDsVi13Y

--------------------
"Whatever can go wrong will go wrong."

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Al
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I'm old but my feet smell and my nose runs,
does this mean I'm upside down; You see my nose should smell and my feet should run. :):)

Happy day!

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tickle
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I read all that and was so confused and intrigued that I had to research it.

Here's what I found, in a nutshell:

2-nonenal is what causes the "old people" smell.

It starts with palmitoleic acid, which is broken down by bacteria living on the skin and by lipid peroxides which are more plentiful in older people.

Badda bing, badda boom! [lick]

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tickled1
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Good one Al!
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Lymetoo
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Old people smell because they hate taking baths!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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lpkayak
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2-nonenal is what causes the "old people" smell.

It starts with palmitoleic acid, which is broken down by bacteria living on the skin and by lipid peroxides which are more plentiful in older people.


THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS TICKLE...CAN YOU GO ONE MORE STEP...HOW TO PREVENT IT...IN EZ TO UNDERSTNAD WORDS???

JUST TAKE MORE BATHS? OR SOMETHING ELSE...

OH YEAH...WHAT IS "OLD"...DOES JUST FEELING OLD COUNT?

I LOVE BATHS...BUT THEY ARE SCAREY AND DANGEROUS FOR ME NOW...I FANTACIZE ABOUT ONE OF THOSE STEP IN TUBS...THEY ARE SOOOOO EXPENSIVE.

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Lymetoo
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I hear ya, kayak! I have to be very careful now due to my feet and my back...mostly the feet.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Marnie
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Palmitoleic acid...look at dermatological use for it!

Wanna look younger?

Today, research is emerging on the *anti-aging* benefits of Omega-7 from rare palmitoleic acid, a monounsaturated fatty acid that is present in all tissues and is a natural component of skin.

Palmitoleic acid is rich in human sebum, which

declines with age.

It can nourish and rejuvenate skin, plus help strengthen the health of mucous membranes that line the urogenital digestive, and respiratory tracts and other canals and cavities of the body.

Over time, skin and these delicate membranes can become dry, overly sensitive and inflamed as part of the normal aging process, exposure to the stress of environmental factors and mucous membrane-related disorders.

Although the human body is able to produce palmitoleic acid, research has shown that accelerated healing, rejuvenation, moisture repleneshment and comfort can occur by supplementing the diet with Omega-7 fatty acids.

http://www.bronsonvitamins.com/548A/omega-7-plus

Skin Pharmacol Appl Skin Physiol. 2003 May-Jun;16(3):176-87.

Palmitoleic acid isomer (C16:1delta6) in human skin sebum is effective against gram-positive bacteria.

PMID: 12677098

Our skin is our 1st line of defense.

However, if you want to look like Cleopatra, it will take a lot more (and I think it is way too late for me):

http://sasinib.hubpages.com/hub/Cleopatra-Beauty-Secrets

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lpkayak
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sorry?????????? i have zero brain today i guess

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Lymetoo
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join the club

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Marnie
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This is all you have to understand:

Palmitoleic acid (***Omega 7 fatty acid***) = palmitoleate.

This acid (Palmitoleate) ***blocks the uptake of fats*** which results in

resistance to type II diabetes and atherosclerosis.

It is protective.

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lpkayak
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so...eat coconut oil?

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Keebler
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-
I think SEA BUCKTHORN OIL is the best of all.

It contains palmitoleic acid and so much more, even better than macadamia nuts.

It's also not a good idea to consume the same foods every single day. Rotation matters.

It's good to stop our frequent foods for at least one day a week and for a whole week every now and then (some say for a week each month).

Some nutritionists advise: Eat (whatever it is); take 3 days off before consuming it again.

I think we need all the FISH, NUT, and PLANT oils to complement each other. No single food has it all.

Even within each group, there are many varieties that should be alternated.

========================

Mountain Rose Herbs in Oregon has the best quality SBO for the best price that I've been able to locate -- others may have additional sources to share, though.

I've been using this to help get rid of "burning mouth" and aphthous mouth ulcers. It has helped more than anything.

For "dry mouth" - the "viscosity" is better than any other oil and help keep my mouth moist all through the night.

Now, as much as I suggest rotating our food, I do find that this works best applied to the inside of the mouth a few times each day. I try to take a day off each week and a week off now and then.


http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/search/search.php?refine=y&keywords=Sea+Buckthorn+oil

Sea Buckthorn Oil - Mountain Rose Herbs
-

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Keebler
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-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmitoleic_acid

Palmitoleic acid

Excerpt:

. . . Palmitoleic acid can be abbreviated as 16:1∆9. Dietary sources of palmitoleic acid include a variety of animal oils, vegetable oils, and marine oils.

Macadamia oil (Macadamia integrifolia) and sea buckthorn oil (Hippophae rhamnoides) are botanical sources with high concentrations, containing 17%[2] and 40%[3] of palmitoleic acid, respectively. . .
-

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randibear
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Do I smell or what? Don't think so. My mom was 83
And she didnt smell? Tu i think you're right. Has to do with not bathing cause if they fall theyre in trouble.

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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Keebler
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HEAT (often) DAMAGES OILS due to oxidation - and then they can be toxic, literally caustic, to the lining of our blood vessels - and our (respective) hearts.

With the days getting warmer, remember to keep oils away from heat.

Use as little oil as possible when sauting.

Avoid frying &/or consuming fried foods. Always and forever. It's very important. Within just hours, oxidation from fried foods can damage the heart.

Light steaming (or a sort of water saut) is helpful to avoid cooking with oil

Then just drizzle a bit of the fresh (olive, avocado, etc.) oil on as you serve the food.

For nuts, be sure to buy fresh RAW nuts, never roasted. You can toast or roast the serving of nuts just before enjoying. Do not roast or toast ahead of time. The oils can oxidize very fast once they've been heated.

Keep in dark glass jars, out of sunlight, away from the fridge motor which gets hot (IN the fridge is okay) . . . away from the microwave or computers - or charging units.
-

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lpkayak
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when i hear all this stuff it just makes me want to give up.. like buying organic and finding out they used pesticides...

it is too much work for me and too confusing

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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sparkle7
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Re: bathing... Showers are good. I have one of those shower nozzels with a long hose - you can sit on the floor or get a small stool if necessary. That's how they do it in the Korean bathhouse.

re: organic food & rarified diet... Even if we eat organic, the fish is poisoned - especially if it's from the Pacific (Fukishima) or the Gulf of Mexico (BP) or anywhere at this point.

It rains & radiation or toxins are watering the plants. GMOs are everywhere. They are infiltrating all of the food grown on the planet. I'm not sure we can stop it now.

I don't think we can escape from this. Yeah, it's probably better to eat organic collards than ones sprayed with 52 different kinds of pesticides. Even if they are $4 for a puny bunch... We may be able to run but we can't hide from the toxins forever.

Every breath we take & every move we make is being accounted for in more ways than one.

If Omega 7 is good for us - great! I'm willing to try it. Thank you Marnie & Keebler!

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Marnie
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lpkayak ...you asked...eat coconut oil?

There is a doctor (woman, pediatrician) in Tampa whose husband has Alzheimer's.

She is giving him 3 tablespoons of VCO (virgin coconut oil) daily and guess what...

It is slowly reversing his Alzheimer's disease!

Google: virgin coconut oil Alzheimer's

She even has videos showing her husband's progress on YouTube.

Do you watch "Survivor"? Don't they (contestants) consume coconut milk (and a lot of fish). Do you not think "they" (producers) know how to keep those people alive when they look to be wasting away?

Have you seen now on grocery store shelves (new) ...flavored coconut water?

Caution...some persons are "allergic" to coconut water. It has to do with the fact that coconuts are a NUT...It is a rare allergy, but is an emerging food allergen (protein reaction).

From Wikipedia:

Bottled coconut water has a shelf life of 24 months.

In recent years, coconut water has been marketed as a natural energy or sports drink due to its

high potassium and mineral content.

Unless the coconut has been damaged, it is likely sterile. There have been cases where coconut water has been used as an

intravenous hydration fluid

in some developing countries where medical saline was unavailable.

Coconut water has a high potassium content and contains antioxidants. It also contains cytokinins which promote plant cell division and growth.

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katrinab
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Can people just take caprylic acid derived from coconut oil?
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Keebler
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Caprylic acid can be very hard to tolerate.

It really wrecked my stomach. I will never take that again. There are many other ways to address candida (which is why many take caprylic acid).

Real coconut oil- and other good oils - work fine for my purpose of nerve support. The WHOLE food is often far better than single elements.

The OIL is want helps with the protective myelin sheath around our nerve fibers. Our nerves need the full complexity various specific fats.
-

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AuntyLynn
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Wow thanks for the tip on the Virgin Coconut Oil and the woman helping her husband with Alzheimers.

I really think that our obsession with cholesterol (which, btw, is completely UNfounded by the REAL science), and the pharmaceutical push to sell their STATIN DRUGS is actually a THREAT to our health! Ever notice how the "recommended" total blood cholesterol went from 250 to 200 when STATINS were introduced??

One peer-reviewed study found that elderly people who had LOW cholesterol, also had diminished immune systems!

Given that our brain tissue is mainly fatty acids and water, I'm thinking that the "low fat" craze may have actually starved the brains of those who believe in this hype.

BTW low fat diets are ALSO known to cause cataracts.

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AuntyLynn
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Oh yeah - meant to put up a "thumbs up" for the shower over the bath!

Lots cheaper to install a shower head than a sidestep tub. Also like the idea of those rubber hose shower heads you can simply connect to the water spout. Unfortunately, most folks will need to climb into a tub to use them.

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lpkayak
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marnie-thank you. i have been cooking with it...im not sure if i can eat it by the spoonful...i wonder if i ruin it by making it hot

thank you so much for the answer

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Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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lpkayak
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aunty lynn-your mailbox is full

they did an mri on me. i have 2 head injuries and lyme for 30 yrs. trying to figure out what is causing cognitive problems.

there is a lot of white matter abnormalities. they said coudl eb anything from lyme to cholesterol. i do test high in lipids but cant take statins...so i am kinda nervous

do you know any thing about cholesterol showing up on mri

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Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Marnie
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Some persons believe cholesterol is not really bad.

We DO need it...it is in our cell membranes.

That said, LDL ("lousy") cholesterol PLUS homocystine (toxic) is bad...very.

Mg inactivates HMG CoA reductase (like statins). However, at the outset of lyme, Mg levels drop "significantly" (understatement). ATP drives Mg back into the cell where it combines with ATP as Mg-ATP. It takes ATP to drive Mg back into the cells and in the infected cells there is far too little ATP being made in the powerhouses of the cells.

Those who have been here a long time, know that Mg restored the "health" of our antibodies to Bb's OspB.

Mg is needed to make all enzymes, and is (along with calcium) needed to make our antibodies...which takes a little time to happen.

IV Mg + abx. cleared early onset lyme in 3 patients in Romania (a few years ago).

It would appear we need to restore Mg (anti-inflammatory, anti-histamine, lowers cholesterol) AND hit Bb.

Getting Mg levels back up when the infected cells are starving of ATP (likely due to Bb robbing NADH) is a problem.

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nefferdun
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That is so complicated - I could understand the simplified version and it is very interesting. I never knew about omega 7 fatty acids, just 9, 6 and 3.

I think the reason why old people smell is diet. They have accumulated a life time of toxins and cannot detox well. Glutathione productions is greatly diminished in old age.

I believe meat, fats, sugar and refined processed food makes you smell. The fatter a person is, the more they smell. It comes from the toxins accumulated in the body fat. People who eat garbage smell like garbage.

A lot of young people are making themselves old. Children are getting type two diabetes. People in their 20's have wrinkles. Smoking also causes people to age dramatically and damages the cells DNA.

It also depends on how much oil is in a persons skin which relates to bathing. People with oily skin smell more if they don't bathe because the oil becomes rancid. Their urine is stronger too especially if they eat garbage and are fat. I am grossing myself out.

It depends a lot on what your inner health is like. Gingivitis is related to heart disease which is all related to poor circulation which is related to what you eat. There is nothing worse than the bad breath of gingivitis.

I am getting old but I hope I never smell old!

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Marnie
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You can APPLY virgin coconut oil on your skin after a bath/shower.

We DO absorb things thru our skin.

I put some in a tiny dish over a tea candle and heat it while in the shower to melt it.

Then after drying, I apply it all over (but my dog loves to lick off any not absorbed). You can use one of those lotion applicator thingys (to reach your back).

Rancid = LDL (low density lipoproteins/"lousy" cholesterol) which is *oxidized*...not good.

LDL + homocysteine is a horrible combination.

Posts: 9404 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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