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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Fry bug

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Author Topic: Fry bug
katrinab
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Are a lot of people testing positive for the fry bug still? It is a parasite, so could things like wormwood and huma worm kill it? How are people dosing the ivermectin paste for horses? Are people stil doing this?
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hadlyme
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Do a search in here for FL1953 and different wording on Fry labs, Fry bug etc....

You will find a lot of answers to your questions under the search.

--------------------
Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again!

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nefferdun
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Yes, a lot of people are testing positive. One doctor reported about 3 out of 4 patients have it. Another said 90%.

Diet is critical. You should be on a low fat vegan diet - less than 15 grams of fat a day. When F began using this diet approach treatment success went from 70% to 90%. Some people are getting better just with diet.

It is unclear how to take the ivermectin because it is a very new treatment. Some people take it everyday for 3-4 months. Some people pulse it 3 days on 4 days off or every other day or two weeks on, two weeks off or even just once a week.

As it is a blood parasite similar to malaria, it seems to me that you would need something in your blood every day. I do not know but doubt that it can be killed while in the red blood cells so I assume it has to be killed when the red blood cells die and it is released. It seems to me if you are pulsing it, you would just be killing some of it.

Right now I am pulsing it because the diet is helping me so much.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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canefan17
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nefferdun

My only issue with this low fat diet is the health of the liver.

It's widely known that eating FATS are what stimulate the liver/gb to produce and spit bile into gut.

Low fat diet always gave me extreme liver pain and mid-upper back pain *shrugs*

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Larae30
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I am waiting on my Fry results.... I'm nervous.

Is Ivermectin the only treatment? Do antimalarials help at all that are used for babesia?

How do you do a really low fat diet when you are supposed to eat fat with mepron/malarone?

Doesn't the body need good fats to function?

--------------------
Treating lyme, bart and babs

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seibertneurolyme
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Larae,

I have many of the same concerns you do.

Good fats are very critical for the brain and maay lymies have seizure issues and neuropathy that could be made worse on low fat diets.

Personally I still think the diet may help because it is low in iron and not because it is low in fat.

Hubby does not plan on going on the diet anytime soon. I do not think he has the F bug, but even if he did I think the malaria drugs including ivermectin would be the first line of treatment.

The numbers people are citing are based on one interview with Dr F and I am not totally convinced yet that the parasite is as common as is being reported.

Given the nature of PCR tests I don't understand how the FL1953 test could return so many positives when babesia PCR tests for example are so often false negative.

Bea Seibert

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SickLYme
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This is just my opinion...and I tested positive for this bug and treated it long term. No resulst whatsoever! So beware! I feel that this "bug" is being mistaken by something from Lyme. Of course if anyone with Lyme does this low-fat diet...they should feel better. Especially if they are on antibiotics and such. The low fat diet disenegrates the biofilm layer allowing the meds to penetrate the actual bacteria and co-infections. I also believe that we develop "parasites" from lyme weakening our immune response. I believe this "bug" is just a co-infection of lyme. Not something seperate which is what is stated in his research.
Sorry...just my opinion.

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by SickLYme:
This is just my opinion...and I tested positive for this bug and treated it long term. No resulst whatsoever! So beware! I feel that this "bug" is being mistaken by something from Lyme. Of course if anyone with Lyme does this low-fat diet...they should feel better.

Especially if they are on antibiotics and such. The low fat diet disenegrates the biofilm layer allowing the meds to penetrate the actual bacteria and co-infections. I also believe that we develop "parasites" from lyme weakening our immune response. I believe this "bug" is just a co-infection of lyme. Not something seperate which is what is stated in his research.
Sorry...just my opinion.

-
I tend to agree. Time will tell.

Eating low fat and more carbs poses other problems as well.

(PS.. not sure I agree that patients will feel better on low fat though)

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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kelmo
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Sick...you are right, you can have the bug and still have Lyme. I do not, however, think it is being mistaken for Lyme.

What Dr. F is doing is finding out WHY some combinations of bugs cause different chronic illnesses in people.

Some combinations of this bug can lead to MS, other combos may lead to Parkinsons, etc.

He says he can get rid of Lyme in about a year. But, if they patient isn't in remission, or cured, it is probably because they have this bug in their system, and it needs to be treated differently from the other Lyme co-infections.

Hope this clears it up. Information gets passed around on this website and evolves into something it isn't He has always said that "chronic" Lyme probably has a big contribution by this bug.

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hadlyme
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Agree with Kelmo.

I am feeling BETTER because of diet and anti-malaria meds. I can not take Ivermectin.

This was the missing 'link' in my treatment for sure. Diet doesn't mean diet! I call it low fat eating. Not a 'diet'!

And when it comes to eating fat with malarone, I do not do that. What you see on paper from a pharmaceutical company on how to take it, is NOT the same as what we should do with it for this bug. Do as you all want, I do not take fat with it and I'm feeling pretty darn good these days. I have talked to my llmd about this too.

My dad died of ALS, my aunt died of ALS. With this connection of FL1953 to being one of the causes (if not 'the' cause) of these auto immune diseases, I for one am staying on this 'life style', For Life. With white spots in my brain, I'm a prime candiate for MS. I will avoid it at all cost.

My tests had come back for babsia years ago. But FL1953 makes more sense to my mind on what I have. I pulse some drug at all times. Zith, then Malarone, then Diflucan.. and there goes the merry go round!

My liver and kidneys are fine. I get enough iron. I have complete blood tests every few months.
I feel great, walk 2-3 miles a day, work full time and no one knows I have this 'disease' by looking at me.

We are all different,and have our own 'stories' to share. I won't knock yours if you don't knock mine.

And dr. of this bug said it's like a parasite, and like a protozoan. It's neither, but a combo of a new type. My bets are that most people DO have this, and that lyme has been treated and this is left in the body.

If you knew by thinning out the biofilm, you could kill this easier and get better faster, wouldn't you try just an easy way of eating to achieve that? It's not rocket science, it's just low fat eating.

--------------------
Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again!

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hadlyme
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Not sure if I can post this, so google a conference that will be held in Phoenix in Sept.

Google: Decoding the mystery of chronic illness. Lots of great llmds speaking at this conference for Medical personal. (not the public)

It's going towards 'chronic illness' and not lyme and company per se' anymore. Another llmd even wants to call it 'Multiple chronic infectious disease syndrome'..... not just 'lyme anymore with any of them it looks like.......
[Smile]

--------------------
Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again!

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RC1
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Does anyone know the science behind not eating meat. I get the low fat part. Thanks [Smile]
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SickLYme
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Thanks hadlyme...I will definently check this out! And I have heard they are trying to label it multiple chronic infectious disease syndrome. Interesting because yes, all of these things seem to be linked somehow.

Also, I am not here to debunk any theories or knock anyones stories or beliefs. I simply stated what I believed. I do believe that they are all interlinked somehow. I just feel some people who have lyme are being misdiagnosed with this bug and then only treating this bug and not the lyme. Therefore they don't get better with time; its no different then what you say when patients treat the lyme and not the bug and don't get better.

However saying that, they must have a symbiotic relationship possibly. Maybe they net together in the biofilm communities. But how can his tests prove this actual organism is what he is looking at? I have had the test...isn't it just a DNA stain under microscopy?

Anyhow, we all know that we have tons of bacteria and parasites, and even unknown things in the body. I hope for everyone, that no matter what it is, we can evade it and get better!
Best Wishes.
Thanks!

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SickLYme
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Oops...I forgot to responsd to RC1

So the Mcdougall diet claims that all animal products create extra inflammation in the body through they antigens and cholesterol, etc. Patients that already suffer from chronic inflammation from lyme, parasites or FL1953 need to not put more inflammation into the body.

The idea is that the fruits and vegatable (vegan) diet will help heal the body from inflammation that is created from disease or animal products.
A good watch is Forks over Knives. If you haven't seen it, it kind of gives insight to eating habits and such.

With that said, I have done the low fat diet, with only very small amounts of lean protein sources. My cholesterol dropped nearly 40 points, glucose down 30 points and my CRP down 10 points. I have severe inflammation levels so we are working on that.

Sorry so long, but I hope this helps.

Thanks!

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tickbitt
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Speaking of the Fry bug, does anyone know how accurate the test is?

I've been taking abx for three years and am not yet well. That often means the Fry bug is busy making biofilms. I tested negative, however. Maybe I'll bring up invermectin at my next visit.

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kelmo
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tickbitt...sometimes the bug can live in the biofilm that clings to the walls of the arteries.

So, it may not show up in a blood test. You can call the lab and ask them what their level of accuracy is.

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tickbitt
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Thanks Kelmo. Maybe I'll try that, though it seems like any testing firm will think their test, uhmm, 'at least' as accurate as it really is. There's only the one lab the bug is named after that has a test for it.

Any real world experience? Anyone test negative for it but take invermectin anyway and get better?

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hansemand
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according to Dr Fry they applied for a patent on the protomyxzoa in 2009.

nothing has been in the relevant journals since then.nnormally the identification of a new microbiological orgsanism would hit the cover of Nature in next to no time.

i still hope that the lab would work in a normal scientific way and publish their results.

Until then ????

--------------------
hansemand

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nefferdun
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I have been on the diet about two months and am much better. I also take the supplements recommended by heartfixer.com for the methyl cycle mutations. This doctor also recommends a vegan diet for the CBS mutation.

You do get some fats. I use chia seed which is the highest source of omega 3 fatty acids. Most fats are high in omega 6 which are inflammatory. The diet allows 15 grams of fat a day which is about one tablespoon of coconut oil but of course there is some fat in foods. Even a cup of cooked oatmeal has 2.5 grams of fat.

I am off all drugs except LDN. I can't take anything else or I get insomnia. I am even off my thyroid meds since starting LDN as my thyroid has reverted to normal.

I have more energy, I can think better, remember better, and the stabbing pains I was having are gone. I have occasional headaches but I lowered my bio-identical hormones to half so that might be why.

I also thought I needed fat with malarone/mepron but I was not getting better. I was feeding the biofilm so the medication, no matter if more of it was absorbed, was not able to attack the infections. Malarone quit working many months ago and I was real worried I was headed for the brink. I actually thought I would just die.

Now if this continues another couple of months, I will be real optimistic that I can actually get into remission. Is this remission? No I am still sick, but I could live here and be ok and I am as drug free as it gets. I forget to take the tinctures so that is not it either. It is just the methyl cycle supplements, LDN and the diet. If i can do this the rest of my life and be ok, that would be wonderful.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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kelmo
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I know the lab that produces the test will most likely say they are 99.9% accurate. Since the lab is also my doctor, we talk a bit about the experimentation he is doing. I don't know much, but I know that, as a scientist, they tend to look at the big picture.

He also treats by symptoms. So, even if something doesn't show up on the slide, he knows that sooner or later something will break loose with treatment and show up later.

Sometimes, my daughter's slide is clean. Other times, a big blob of biofilm colony will appear. Those colonies are breaking up, however.

So, diet and ivermectin are working.

Didn't know omega 6 causes inflammation. Why can't there be consistent information on this stuff?

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RC1
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I just wanted to share, I have been low fat for about 1 month and I just started vegan about 4 days ago. I had been stuck with this inflammation that wouldn't go away. Constant aches and pains.

I felt better the first night I didn't have meat so I stuck with it and I am feeling A LOT better! I am really surprised by this! That this diet is actually making me feel better.

I can't get enough to eat though, need some good filling low carb ( for yeast ) recipes.

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SickLYme
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That sounds great Nefferdon. How much LDN are u tAking? I have strongly considered this as many people swear they feel better on it. How does it work? Does it boost the immune system? I am with you.....if I could just feel better I could Luce with that! That's all I want!

And I also agree....where is the research and journals on this FL 1953...I have a Dr./ researcher in my lab who has tons of research published just within the last few years on Lyme. There is no information on google or anywhere... I have searched diligently. ( I am a reader [Big Grin] )

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nefferdun
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RCI I have been experimenting with recipes and posted some in General under "my favorite good for you recipes". I just made some bean soup with tomatoes, onions, corn and peppers. As I was stirring it, I noticed how beautiful all the colors are.

I also use a lot of spice especially tumeric and cumin. Hot spices increase circulation and almost everything I eat now is hot. When you get into this diet, you crave vegetables.

I cheat now and then using egg whites which have no fat but are an animal product. I eat cheese now and then but can do without it. Vegan cheese is kind of like American cheese so I usually have some of that.

SickLyme, I am only taking 2 mg of LDN right now as I was told to take is slowly. I started with 1.5 mg. When I first tried LDN last fall I could not tolerate it. I had to urinate all the time and was miserable. Now I have no problem. I am mixing it myself which is very simple, and there are no fillers to cause problems. It is also much cheaper.

LDN temporarily blocks opiate receptors which triggers the body to produce massive amounts of endorphins. Endorphins stimulate the immune system. In the case of auto immune diseases (like Hashimoto's) LDN increases regulatory T cells 300%. In auto immune diseases there are too many killer cells and not enough "intelligence" to shut them down.

LDN will not cure lyme disease but it will help boost the immune system. A side benefit is you feel better emotionally. It is used for depression. When I am on it I am much more out going, generally just enjoy life more.

Methyl cycle mutations are important too because glutathione is the most powerful antioxidant produced in the body and if you are not assimilating folic acid, you cannot produce enough of it.

I am feeling better and better. Right now I am going out to ride my horse. Two months ago, my motivation to do anything was almost completely gone. I had to force myself. Life is coming back.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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SickLYme
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Well this is interesting! I may have to ask my doc about it. Does it improve the body to fight Lyme faster then? Or is it just a feel good cover up drug?
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nefferdun
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LDN has been very successful at halting the growth of cancer. People who were diagnosed terminal have recovered completely. My dog was diagnosed with liver cancer. I started him on LDN and 3-4 weeks later a new ultrasound showed the tumor had shrunk slightly and there was less fluid.

It definitely helps your immune system to function better so it can fight disease. It is also good for pain. Lyme can set us up for auto immune responses and LDN will halt this. You still need antibiotics and antimalarials to target the individual infections.

What I believe may have happened to me the first time I took LDN, is it woke up my immune system to hidden infections and that was my discomfort. Some people have a very strong response and have to quit it until they have gotten things more under control.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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anuta
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Wow Nefferdun, it's great to hear that yiu are feeling better, to the point that you are talming about remission!
I understand that you are on low fat vegan diet. Are you also doing gluten free and sugar free, because if you are there is not much left to eat.
But on the other hand i was thinking if this is key to remission i would do it too no questions asked.

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nefferdun
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I have been sugar free over four years but I do eat some honey and maple syrup. I have not given up gluten because I don't believe it bothers me - but that could be denial. I try to eat Ezekiel bread rather than plain bread.

The diet is very restrictive but with experimentation I am developing recipes I enjoy as much, if not more, than what I was eating before.
It does not bother me at all when other people are eating things I cannot have. Now and then I will eat a small amount of something forbidden trying to keep the fat to less than 15 grams.

For instance egg whites do not have any fat and not that much arginine. I find the MCDougal recipes for pancakes and quick breads etc absolutely disgusting. I can make brownies with egg whites and pureed black beans for a once in a while treat. I can also make quick bread with pureed white beans instead of fat and it is very good with a lot more fiber and protein.

I make the food very spicy which helps with interest. I make a loaf with mashed black beans, Chinese black rice, onion, green pepper and a bit of flour or bread crumbs to make it bind - spice it up and it is wonderful.

I make a lentil curry and a great vegan chili. Spice is key to everything. Grilled marinated portobello mushrooms are to die for. I can cheat on this one too. WHen I flip them over I put some low fat ricotta cheese that only has 1.5 grams of fat and a tiny amount of mozzarella cheese on top. All together it has about 3 grams of fat. In the left over marinade I saute onion and peppers and serve it on rice.

I am telling you guys this so you do not continue to think the diet is just steamed vegetables. The mainstay for me is beans, lentils and rice. There are millions of people in the world living off this diet.

It makes absolutely no sense to me when people believe they must have meat or they will get sick. That is just brain washing. Meat is full of toxins. It causes ammonia to build up in your body. The only benefit it offers is protein. When you get protein from plant sources you are also getting fiber and vitamins and minerals.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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anuta
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Wow Nefferdun, it's great to hear that yiu are feeling better, to the point that you are talming about remission!
I understand that you are on low fat vegan diet. Are you also doing gluten free and sugar free, because if you are there is not much left to eat.
But on the other hand i was thinking if this is key to remission i would do it too no questions asked.

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CD57
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Nefferdun -- I looked on heartfixer and could not find supplements -- are you taking the RNA drops from Amy Yasko?

Kelmo -- what is Dr F's position on bartonella now? And those of us who seem to struggle and struggle with these sets of symptoms and can't get anywhere? I feel like he never talks about this infection in anything I have read, while the other LLMDs take it very seriously. Does he believe it is a non-issue if you take care of the bug and the biofilms? I know there are thousands of people walking around with it who are asymptomatic so in theory a healthy immune system can handle it just fine.

I agree with him about Lyme by the way...knocking it down in a year. It seems to continue to respond to most meds while bart seems to for awhile also, then the meds stop working.

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hadlyme
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CD57, Take a look at this conversation from Dr. F about the protozoan. It does explain a lot of where he is coming from.

There is a whole 'soup' of infections out there. Maybe what we thought we had isn't what we have? I always thought I had babesia only... now I realize that my tests for that were showing 'something' and saying positive for it, but I feel it was the FL1953 making a positive look for babesia.. make sense?


http://www.iadvocatehealth.org/protozoal_infection0.aspx

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Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again!

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AuntyLynn
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Can someone please tell me ... what is LDN?
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nhlymeguy
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bump...what is LDN
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Tammy N.
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LDN is Low Dose Naltrexone. It gets compounded at the pharmacy. (Not to be confused with Naltrexone.)
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soccermama
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I tried to go vegan 12 years ago. I got down to 112 pounds. My body was eating my muscles.

My integrative doctor at that time said some people just need meat. The doctor wanted me to

make sure that my meat sources were organic and grass fed.

I am already having trouble keeping on weight. I don't know how I could make a diet like this work.

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Larae30
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Well, I tested positive for the fry bug...

I am wondering what the heck I'm supposed to eat to maintain being gluten and sugar free and now not having more than 15g of fat a day.

I want to make sure my body is getting everything it needs to function?

I only really ate good fats, but now I can't have much of that either.

1 avocado has about 30g of fat!!!! I am going to starve I feel like!

I also don't want to lose more weight...

Any suggestions for natural, naturally sweetened protein powders?

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Treating lyme, bart and babs

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Tammy N.
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I'm in the same boat as soccermama and Larae.... can't risk losing more weight.

I've been reducing fats, but not eliminating them. I'm heavy into treatment for parasites right now. Hoping the meds and clean diet will be enough without having to go to low-fat, vegan.

Feeling so much better already, and I haven't been treating for even a week yet. Parasites are leaving. Very exciting to see.

Sorry if I missed it above, but how long does Dr. F recommend treating with Ivermectin? Also, does he pulse it or take it continuously?

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hansemand
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this is still the status

SWCCD's focus is to identify the underlying cause of Chronic Inflammatory Disease. We believe and have evidence to show that most inflammatory diseases are caused by a common infectious organism. With additional funding we plan to determine the genetics and growth characteristics of this pathogen. We then need to prove the prevalence of this pathogen to the medical community. By understanding the biology of this pathogen we hope to identify and target its weakness with current available therapeutics, help to discover new therapies, and develop methods for prevention

No official news

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hansemand

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outerspace1226
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What is the basic test that should be ordered on Frylabs.com? How much is it?
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Larae30
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I did a coinfection panel and the fry bug PCR and the total was almost $1000, I think just the fry PCR was almost $400?

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Treating lyme, bart and babs

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Spindleshanks
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So what symptoms have people for sure contributed to this bug?

What improvements are being seen with treatment?

Has anyone had what they thought was bartonella symptoms go away with this treatment? I understand the correlation between the Babs and fry but I guess what i am asking is did anyone think it was Bart but it turned out to just be symptoms of the fry bug?

I don't know if that made sense! LOL

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hadlyme
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Spindles....

I always thought I had lyme, babs and who knows what other co infection.

You need to think of the fl1953 as another co infection OR the stand a lone type of infection.

It has all the same symptoms as any of them really.

Hansemand:

You are always so quick to try and figure out why nothing has been posted on this. My bets are that you're from another lab in Europe and want to find out the info before others.

Did you look at the link I posted? If you read it, you'll learn a few things on why nothing is printed yet. Looking at their Foundation page will not give you any scientific info.

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Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again!

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nefferdun
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If any of you went vegan and lost too much weight and muscle, then you were not eating correctly. This is a healthy diet. You should feel much better, have more energy, brighter skin, clearer thinking, less pain, better muscle tone etc. There are many athletes that are vegans.

On this diet, you are not eating animal products and you reduce the fat to 15 grams a day. You eat whole foods, not processed refined junk. That means lots of vegatables, grains, rice, legumes etc. You will get plenty of calories and plenty of protein.

If you add chia seeds to sauces etc you will get a lot of omega 3 fatty acids. Vegetable oils have omega 6 fatty acids which are inflammatory.

You don't need meat. No one does. Most of the world's population survives very well on very little animal protein. Americans have been brain washed to believe meat is the "superior protein" and milk is "good for the bones". Say you won't give up meat because you like it, but please stop saying you need it!

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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nefferdun
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About LDN

www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/

Supplement for methyl cycle mutations can be bought here:

http://www.holisticheal.com/supplements

The doctor on heartfixer uses the above site for supplements. I am following his recommendations until I get my test results back.

I believe Ben on mthfr.com sells his own or from another source. I don't know which would be cheaper.

I hope my lyme infections are under control and protomxzoa is all that is left. That might be wishful thinking. I am pinching myself every day - off abx and antimalarials and doing ok.

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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vitamink
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Actually, nefferdun, one does need animal products, as they are the only source of B12. There are no plant sources of this vitamin.
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Larae30
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What if you supplement with B12?

I was vegetarian for 10 years and felt NO worse than when I ate meat.

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Treating lyme, bart and babs

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vitamink
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Sure, you can supplement with B12, but that doesn't make "You don't need meat. No one does." a valid statement. Because we have clearly evolved to need getting B12 from animal products, not supplements.

Anyway, my problem is with the statement, not with veganism itself.

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hansemand
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hadlyme

you may have seen that the 7th world congress abpout bartonella was held at NCSU recently.

scientists, MDs from all over the world participated and maybe 80 ?presentations were made reporting the research going on in different places.
It is quite clear that the scientists and doctors are only at the beginning of understanding bartonella as a pathogene let alone treatment options.

How likely do you think it is that one small lab alone can complete research necessary for a new possible human pathogene within a time spoan of a hundred years?

My hope is that scientific discoveries can help humans.In this case none of us will be around to benifit from research into this organism unless the scientific community gets involved

The lab has secured its IP rights, It says in the interview with the lab owner.So,I just dont get it.And to extent I do, I dont like it.
In particular considering the number of people affected by illnesses that the lab owner thinks can be related to this organism.We are not talking millions of people, we are looking at...

Wish I had a lab

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hansemand

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kelmo
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hansemand, you spend a lot of energy condemning this little lab. Why? If you think they aren't doing enough, whining about it isn't going to make it happen. Move on.

Perhaps concentrating on your region and the discoveries there would be far superior than what is happening in this cowboy town.

Ignore it. It's not hurting anyone. It's just a little engine that is trying to get up the big hill.

How about doing something positive. Encourage a big scientist in Europe to cure us. Then share the good news.

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kelmo
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To respond to the B12 question. My daughter supplements with B12. It doesn't take much; her level can go sky high quickly. I can't tell you how much, it is definitely personal.

I have always loved meat. A good hamburger makes me happy.

However, since my daughter has gone vegan, I have toyed around with her menu and find that my body's reaction to food is changing. I can't tolerate a lot of meat any more.

I'm really getting into falafels.

Not going vegan, yet. Going more vegetarian.

With an occasional hamburger.

I'm not in treatment, but should be. Taking care of my daughter, my dad, and two households...can't afford to herx. May try Bolouke over my summer break.

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