Topic: TEST Results! New to Lyme. Help me make sense...please.
Judie
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posted
Hi Everyone,
My LLMDs office is closed til next week. I just got some test results in the mail.
As an update, I had a bulls-eye rash in the middle of July. I've been on doxycycline since then. I ignored the original doc who only wanted me on doxy for 3 weeks and found a doc who would prescribe for longer (as encouraged by so many on this forum).
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Judie
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"welcome to our "don't wanna join" club"
LOL. I really needed a chuckle.
Thanks for making sense out of this.
Oh man, now I have to decide on the best treatment from here out.
Any advice?
The LLMD doc I saw only does orals that I know of (and didn't order the lyme test, she just assumed I had it because of the rash). The infectious disease doc will do IV, but he only wanted me to do doxy for 4 weeks and stop (I stayed on it longer anyway). I'm not sure who to trust. Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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posted
You trust your GUT!! You do not stop treating until you've felt symptom free for 2-3 months! Or you will be chronic for sure.
Not everyone needs IV .. esp if you caught this early.
Glad I made you chuckle!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Judie
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Thank you soooo much for telling me to stay on antibiotics beyond the original 3 weeks. Sheeesh, here I am going beyond the approved treatment and I'm still positive.
The LLMD said for me to stay on the orals. It'll probably take about 6 months and I'll herx less with every cycle. When I stop herxing, I stay on it for a few more weeks. I think the IV treatment that's offered is for about 6 weeks in the infectious disease doc's office.
Yes, I really need to laugh. I'm so ****ed at the health care industry right now. They are just breeding chronic Lyme with their crappy guidelines.
Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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Well Judie, I guess your going to have to decide if taking Doxy causes cystform Lyme in living tissue.Will these cyst come back later and give you chronic Lyme.This study by Yale U says it won't happen. http://www.jci.org/articles/view/58813. Here is a Long term patient follow up study that says it probably won't happen. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11345216 All the research that supports the cystform theory is test tube only.There is no study where they have produced,identified and cultured infectious cysts from living tissue caused by taking Doxy.But if you want to play it safe,go ahead and take two or three more months of abx's.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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Judie
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Thanks Nnecker. That makes me feel better.
I was able to open the second link, but not the first. I also noticed a link to an interesting articles next to it:
I feel like I've been hit by a truck when I wake up in the morning. No energy at all even with sleep. I assume this is all part of "the club."
Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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posted
Where are the long term patient studies showing that two to three month long abx treatments for early lime are significantly better then 4 weeks of Doxy.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
I think marypart's comment on the Yale study is on to something.She said "What I think is an important point,is that this study is about mice that were treated with antibiotics right away(treated thirty days later when tested positive and treated for thirty days.).Many people with chronic Lyme are people who not treated or under treated.I think chronic Lyme comes from disseminated infection that is entrenched, a much more resistant case with the spirochete(not a cyst or biofilm)living in places that are hard to reach(with antibiotics)and make the infection hard to kill".Take a look at the Yale study http://www.jci.org/articles/view/58813 look at the blue photos in figure 1.Look at photo a and compare it to photo b.That's one day of abx kill.Whats three more months of abx"s going to do for you.That's like killing an ant with a sledge hammer.Also look at figure 2.It shows a spirochete morphing into a cyst like the one on youtube.But when they cultured the tissue it was in, it was negative.I think as long as you catch Lyme early,and take thirty days of Doxy and are not unlucky that one of those spirochetes dosen't get entrenched,you should be ok.If some spirochetes do get entrenched,taking more months of abx's is not going to help you anyway.The early Lyme, long term patient studies show this is the case. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12893393http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11345216
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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WPinVA
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The horrible thing about this disease is that everyone who gets Lyme has been where you are and is forced to make this same decision. And none of us are well-equipped to make it because before getting sick we usually know absolutely zero about the whole Lyme mess, and it's really hard to research and make good decisions when you're terribly ill.
I had never gone out the medical mainstream until I got Lyme. It's scary to do it. But I pretty quickly deduced that I wasn't going to get well by following the ID doctor's advice to go off my meds when I was still so sick I was bedridden. So, in the end, the scarier choice was to stay sick, and the more reasonable choice was to go to an LLMD.
Have you been tested/evaluated for co-infections yet? That is definitely something you want to pursue. There is unfortunately a lot more to this than "just" Lyme.
As for no energy, I sympathize because fatigue has been one of my worst symptoms from the get-go. Lyme can do a number on hormones and the adrenal system. You may want to ask about an adrenal recovery program and have your thyroid levels checked.
Posts: 1737 | From Virginia | Registered: Aug 2011
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Yes, I have been tested for co-infections,and they were negative.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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TF
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Member # 14183
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Judie, your Western Blot test results can stay positive for months or even years after you get rid of lyme. That is because the Western Blot does not look for the lyme bacteria in your blood. Instead, it looks for your body's response to the bacteria--the making of antibodies to lyme.
When the WB test finds evidence of antibodies to lyme in your blood, the positive bands show up.
So, the Western Blot says "this person was exposed to lyme some time in the past."
That's all it says. It doesn't say that you have lyme now.
If you want to know if you still have lyme, the lyme doctor will do what is called an antibiotic challenge test. This is done after you have finished treatment if you ever think you might be relapsing.
The test requires you to take a short course of antibiotics that kill lyme. Then, your first morning's urine is checked to see if any dead lyme bateria are found in the urine. If none are found, then there was none to be killed. You have no more lyme.
Those of us who have had lyme in the past can't be tested using the Western Blot. So, in the future, just remember that. Your Blot could be positive for years after this episode of lyme.
Here is the recommendation for length of treatment from Dr. Burrascano, foremost lyme disease expert in the world in his time:
"DISSEMINATED DISEASE - Multiple lesions, constitutional symptoms, lymphadenopathy, or any other manifestations of dissemination.
EARLY DISSEMINATED: Milder symptoms present for less than one year and not complicated by immune deficiency or prior steroid treatment:
1) Adults: oral therapy until no active disease for 4 to 8 weeks (4-6 months typical)" (pages 19-20)
When he says to use oral therapy until no active disease for 4 to 8 weeks, that means to take meds 4 to 8 weeks past your symptom-free date.
That's what my lyme doctor did with me. I got rid of lyme disease over 7 years ago and I am still symptom-free, enjoying my life. My doctor followed the Burrascano Guidelines.
That's how a number of my friends also got rid of this horrendous disease.
Good for you for dropping the ID doc.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Tf, what exactly are you trying to kill taking antibiotics for that long.I don't get it.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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TF
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nnecker, yes you do get it.
You disagree with Burrascano. Or, at least you question him.
Why don't you write to Burrascano and tell him you are not clear on why he says to take antibiotics for so long. Ask him what exactly he is trying to kill taking antibiotics for that long. Ask him for his proof that all of this treatment is necessary.
Your debate is not with me, as I have told you before.
When I gave YOU this quote a few months back, you didn't like it. I don't see the sense in trying to argue with me each time I give this quote to someone else.
Let each person make up their own mind.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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During the antibody can attack B. burgdorferi mutate and make rearrangements in DNA, which can lead to antigenvariasjon. It is particularly OspE undergoing major antigenic variations ( 21 ). Modification and down-regulation of other outer surface proteins (aspen, C), so they do not bind to protective antibodies, is also a characteristic that bacteria can use to circumvent the host's defense. This is particularly important for the bacteria in early infection phase. Borrelia burgdorferi - a unique bacterial � Brorson
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22878540 Vet Med Sci. 2012 Aug 10. [Epub ahead of print] A total of 87 Thoroughbred horses and 10 ixodid ticks from a ranch in Hidaka district, Hokkaido were tested for tick-borne diseases.
Using the indirect fluorescent antibody (IFA) method, 3.4, 92.0 and 97.7% of the horses
showed antibody titers of ≥80
against Anaplasma phagocytophilum, Rickettsia helvetica, and Borrelia garinii,
respectively. This is the first report of infection with the 3 pathogens in horses in Japan.
Microbial pathogens acquire the immediate imperative to avoid or counteract the formidable defense of innate immunity as soon as they overcome the i nitial physical barriers of the host.
Many have adopted the strategy of directly disrupting the complement system
through the capture of its components, using proteins on the pathogen's surface.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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TF
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Here are some quotes from Burrascano about why treatment takes so long to eradicate lyme:
"As the spirochete has a very long generation time (12 to 24 hours in vitro and possibly much longer in living systems) and may have periods of dormancy, during which time antibiotics will not kill the organism, treatment has to be continued for a long period of time to eradicate all the active symptoms and prevent a relapse, especially in late infections. If treatment is discontinued before all symptoms of active infection have cleared, the patient will remain ill and possibly relapse further.
In general, early LB is treated for four to six weeks, and late LB usually requires a minimum of four to six months of continuous treatment. All patients respond differently and therapy must be individualized." (pages 16-17)
"It has been observed that symptoms will flare in cycles every four weeks. It is thought that this reflects the organism�s cell cycle, with the growth phase occurring once per month (intermittent growth is common in Borrelia species). As antibiotics will only kill bacteria during their growth phase, therapy is designed to bracket at least one whole generation cycle. This is why the minimum treatment duration should be at least four weeks." (page 17)
"All patients must keep a carefully detailed daily diary of their symptoms to help us document the presence of the classic four week cycle, judge the effects of treatment, and determine treatment endpoint." (page 17)
So, based on the 4-week growth cycle of lyme disease, Burrascano wants a person to take meds for 1 to 2 cycles past the symptom-free point to ensure all lyme has been eradicated.
For those infected over a year, you are to always take meds for 2 cycles past symptom endpoint.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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I think four to six weeks of treatment is fine for early Lyme.But any more is overkill as the Yale photo's show.I guess when he says dormancy,he is talking about cystform.Again look at the Yale photo of the cyst.It was cultured negative.If Burrascano can show a study in mice where they treat them with Doxy,photograph the cysts it creates,culture the cysts into infectious spirochetes,I will start sucking down cystbusters like there is no tomorrow.And why the ILADS is not doing it, I have no idea.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tincup
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Necker said.. "Your right.I will back off.Just something I need to vent that's all."
It is quite possible your venting would be more appropriate if done at the LN Europe site that you've been frequenting.
Keebler
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posted
-- nnecker,
If you want to rely on Yale to save your life, you might want to have a plan B. Yale is not a good authority about lyme. Not at all.
Links below open a few windows, so to speak.
How many of the ILADS past conference articles and DVD sets have you been able to obtain? These are key. Absolutely key.
Listen & watch the presentations and Q & A sessions. I've gathered such a better base of understanding from the conference DVDs.
This autumn, when their next conference comes around - go ahead now and mark your calender to watch as they do live streaming. Don't miss one minute. Later the DVD set can be purchased but the live streaming will be free.
For past DVD sets and to learn about the upcoming conference: www.ilads.org
Many lyme support groups have these sets to loan.
In case you really might need a bit more basic detail, see next post. -
[ 08-25-2012, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- It's important to read the work of those LLMD who suggest treating for two to four months past symptom clearance.
Another excellent point to consider is from this author who explains why treatment would need to last at least 30 weeks [for a new case, and just speaking about "uncomplicated" lyme itself]:
Controversy continues to fuel the "Lyme War" Excerpt:
. . . Once disseminated throughout the body, B. burgdorferi secludes itself and becomes difficult to detect through laboratory testing�and by the host's immune system.
The bacterium may hide in its host's WBCs or cloak itself with host proteins. Furthermore, it tends to hide in areas not usually under immune surveillance, such as scar tissue, the central nervous system, the eyes, and deep in joints and other tissues.
Phase and antigenic variations allow B. burgdorferi to change into pleomorphic forms to evade the immune system and antibiotics.
The three known forms are the spiral shape that has a cell wall, the cell-wall-deficient form known as the �L-form� (named not for its shape but for Joseph Lister, the scientist who first identified these types of cells), and the dormant or latent cyst form.
Encapsulating itself into the inactive cyst form enables the spirochete to hide undetected in the host for months, years, or decades until some form of immune suppression initiates a signal that it is safe for the cysts to open and the spirochetes to come forth and multiply.
Each of these forms is affected by different types of antibiotics.
If an antibiotic targets the bacterium's cell wall, the spirochete will quickly morph into a cell-wall-deficient form or cyst form to evade the chemical enemy.
Borrelia burgdorferi has an in vitro replication cycle of about seven days, one of the longest of any known bacteria. Antibiotics are most effective during bacterial replication, so the more cycles during a treatment, the better.
Since the life cycle of Streptococcus pyogenes (the bacterium that causes strep throat) is about eight hours, antibiotic treatment for a standard 10 days would cover 30 life cycles.
To treat Lyme disease for a comparable number of life cycles,
treatment would need to last 30 weeks. . . .
- The FULL article is well worth reading for basic education.
-------------------------------- The author above is talking about a relatively new case, not chronic. That would take longer attention.
Because lyme rarely travels alone, OTHER tick-borne infections would also need to be assessed. Different Rx are usually required.
[ 08-25-2012, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- Many who are concerned about assertive treatment may be unaware that most LLMDs usually suggest support methods that help the body better tolerate treatment. Some of those are here:
posted
Keebler, you keep giving me this cystform stuff.Cystform Lyme created by taking Doxy is still in the test tube stage.Prescribing cystbuster remedies while it's still in the test tube stage is ridiculous and potentially harmful.Dr McDonald,Dr Sapi's colleague will not endorse these cystbuster remedies.He said so himself.Why would I want to take them when someone with his knowledge about cystform Lyme won't even admit that he can prove they even exist.Much more research needs to be done before we can start to safely treat them if they do even exist.Like I said, if you can give me a study that shows that they can produce,photograph,and culture Doxy created cysts from living tissue,into infectious spirochetes,I will start taking cystbusting drugs.Can you show me that study?
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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surprise
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It's your choice whether to take cyst busters, or not.
After what I know now, 15 years of untreated Lyme and Bartonella,
if I knew I had Lyme when I contracted it, couple months of Doxy, some GSE, Samento, 2 weeks of Tindamax if I could get it,
would be a sweet walk in the park compared to deeply engrained neuro and body pain issues. And the $80,000 I've spent so far trying to correct my daughter's and I health issues.
Take them or don't take them nn. We all ultimately decide our own treatment.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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Surprise, I agree we decide our own treatment.But when I look at studies like this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11345216 were do you fit in the context of this.I don't know if your a one in a hundred case or not.Now you can say that study is bs.Fine.Show me a long term patient study that shows me your going to go chronic if you don't take cystbusters?Do you have that study?
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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surprise
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I guess my point is, I don't think taking a cyst buster is a big deal (Samento, GSE, flagyl) for a few weeks.
Having Lyme go chronic and wreak your life, passing it to an innocent child, that's a big freaking deal.
I'd trust the Doctor's who have years experience treating Lyme.
JMO.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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Keebler
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- nnecker,
That study is not accurate. Not at all. You'd have to look at the methods.
Who has assessed the IDSA and IDSA-style of research methods?
This ILADS researcher.
Now, she may not have detail in this presentation but do search for ALL her past presentations and papers. She has a very entailed lecture and paper where she went through with a fine toothed comb, explaining the methods and how they were found lacking.
This is just a start so you know whose work to first study:
posted
Surprise,if you cant culture cysts in tissue,how do you know that your killing them for sure, and at what percentage,20,50 75 of them.There are no studies of this.Hell, they are still arguing if they even exist.LLMD's are guessing that they work,just like everybody else.Yale photograghed a couple of them in tissue,cultured them,and they were negative.To me that is better evidence then the test tube.And Flagyl,known to cause cancer in mice.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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Keebler
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- Again, I would not trust your life to Yale. Read what Maloney and Johnson have to say about the research methods.
There are many ways to address the cyst form. There are also various protective and supportive supplements that can help with treatment.
But, some strains of lyme (and some of those stains in combination with other tick-borne infections), can be fatal when untreated, under-treated or improperly tended in a number of ways. That is to be considered, too.
HARD SCIENCE ON LYME: Straubinger�s New Study Shows How Lyme Bacteria survives
2nd January 2011
A recent research paper by Straubinger confirms that the bacteria responsible for Lyme disease, Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), is capable of
transforming itself from a spirochetal form (that looks like a cork screw shaped worm) to a spherical shape when it encounters unfavorable conditions.
The study is important because it confirms earlier work by Brorson on the ability of Bb to convert to a spherical shape under adversity and convert back to a spirochete when conditions for survival improved.
This ability to convert is thought to protect Bb from the body�s immune system as well as help protect it from antibiotics.
These two mechanisms may be instrumental in the ability of Bb to persist in patients.
The study also found that intact RNA, which is essential to reproduction, was able to survive the transformation.
This latter finding dispels the argument that the spherical form of Bb is merely an artifact or debris from a dead organism.
Al-Robaiy S., Dihazi H., Kacza J., et al.
Metamorphosis of Borrelia burgdorferi organisms�RNA, lipid and protein composition in context with the spirochetes� shape.
J Basic Microbiol, 2010, 50 Suppl 1, S5-17. -
[ 08-25-2012, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Thanks Keebler for the links,it's always good to read new info.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
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- It's important to consider the MANY STRAINS OF BORRELIA as we assess what we read about lyme. The book link was posted few posts above.
TF posted this recently at another thread: ----------------------
What many people don't know is that 10 strains of lyme cause only the lyme rash. They don't cause any lyme disease at all. So, that's why a person can get a rash and just take a little doxy and be fine. They actually would have been fine even without the doxy
Here is an exerpt from the book "Cure Unknown" by Pam Weintraub in which she talks about this aspect of lyme disease:
Cure Unknown excerpts
p. 342 tells how Ben Luft, infectious disease specialist and Daniel Dykhuizen, evolutionary biologist, working together at Stony Brook went out into the field collecting ticks and analyzing Borrelia.
A few years later, they had a graduate student travel the Eastern seaboard as far north as New Hampshire and south through the Carolinas collecting ticks infected with B. burgdorferi spirochetes.
p.343 �The Borrelia were duly isolated and compared for differences in their genes.
Eventually the researchers focused on twenty strains, each with a different version of the changeable OspC. Working with those twenty strains, Luft learned that six didn�t infect humans and ten caused only a rash.
Only four of the twenty could leave the skin to invade other tissue like the heart and joints or the brain.
The most virulent of the strains turned out to be the prototypical B31, the version of B. burgdorferi � ultimately isolated by Burgdorfer and Barbour at the Rocky Mountain labs in 1981.
The implications are profound. One of the most important is that if just four strains of the twenty cause disseminated infection, then the roster of rash-based studies on the treatment of early Lyme disease, conducted from the 1980s to the present, would have to be reassessed.
Take a moment to ponder the simple math: It would be impossible to accept results based on the assumption that 100 percent of Lyme rashes can cause invasive disease when a significant percent cannot.
Some of the classic studies claim very high cure rates for early infection; yet if the causative strain were of the rash-only variety, then even orange juice would be a �cure.�
Are recommended treatment protocols truly curing most of those with early, invasive borreliosis? Or has noise from rash-only strains obscured less rosy results?� (p. 344) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Seeing videos of the spirochetes crawling out of the cysts was enough to convince me.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Pinelady
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The so called experts want to deny cyst formations of which Dr. Sapi has described 30-poss. 60 different forms...Why?
Because many cancers are heralded by calcium deposits and since we know the biofilm is made of mostly calcium and that calcium was protecting spirochetes that would mean billions have been robbed for cancer treatment that never worked in the first place would lose zillions of dollars chasing lies.....
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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lightfoot
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This discussion is a waste of everyone's time.
-------------------- Healing Smiles.....lightfoot Posts: 7228 | From CO | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by lightfoot: This discussion is a waste of everyone's time.
Only the moderators ... no one else needs to read it.
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Dogsandcats
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Yeah, the moderators only....
-------------------- God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.
Billy Graham Posts: 1967 | From California | Registered: Oct 2010
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Judie
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I'm reading it and I'm the one who started the thread.
I'm finding ALL the info helpful.
My new question is what do you do if you already have a compromised immune system and get infected?
This is what I'm dealing with, I already had a messed up immune system and was struggling everyday before getting infected.
Getting this infection is just adding more crap to my crappy situation.
Are there studies on if you're already unhealthy and you get this as a NEW infection?
Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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Dogsandcats
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I was bit in June. Didn't know that it was a tick bite. Had a minor "woman" surgery in September. Did not recover well.
Had to have another surgery in November, could not recover.
Not only did I have all the horrendous fatigue, herxes, etc, the worst pain I still have is where my surgery was. Everything has been examined in my records and now is just labeled "chronic pelvic pain"
Don't know if this answered your question.
It seems logical, IMHO, that if your resistance is down, Lyme would hop in....but-I am not doctor!
Sorry you are so sick.
-------------------- God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.
Billy Graham Posts: 1967 | From California | Registered: Oct 2010
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Sixgk,if people with a different view about Lyme and it's treatment of it, then almost all who post here, are not welcome here,then please post it on your home page.I have not made any outlandish claims.I think I am testing the validity of the claims that are made by others on this board.Thats all.For example.Dr Tom Grier,supporter of the ILADS,stated in an article he wrote about culturing spirochetes."Lyme patients personal accounts with antibiotic therapy have CONSISTENTLY BEEN IN CONFLICT OF WHAT HAS BEEN OBSERVED IN THE TEST TUBE,ERYTHROMYCIN IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE DRUG AGAINST THE LYME SPIROCHETE,YET THE USE IN LYME PATIENTS HAS BEEN DISAPPOINTING.This is my exact point here.I think new people who come to this board should now stuff like this and to be careful about treatments based on test tube studies.That's why I have asked Keebler and others over and over to give me tissue studies of what they see in the test tube,for this exact reason that Dr Grier, SUPPORTER OF THE ILADS,stated about the test tube.And I think Judie who said she is thankful for ALL the info stated on this thread would like to see the tissue studies too.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
Sorry,should be"ANYIBIOTIC THERAPY HAVE CONSISTENTLY BEEN IN CONFLICT OF WHAT HAS BEEN OBSERVED IN THE TEST TUBE.IN THE TEST TUBE ERYTHROMYCIN IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE DRUG AGAINST THE LYME SPIROCHETE,YET THE USE IN LYME PATIENTS HAS BEEN DISAPPOINTING.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I - and I know many others here cannot read the above two posts but it is possible to make out that you want more detail.
Usually, by now posters know that short paragraphs of 3-4 lines, and in lower case, are the most reader friendly. If you want to edit the posts, more will be able to read.
You have been told how to find the best research. I know you've not been able to do the required searching yet as that would take time to sort out the leads you were given in several above posts.
Do the reading, see the DVDs of the conferences, sort out Maloney's presentations from two and three years ago that discuss parameters of research methods - see the Syracuse videos from about six months ago - then you will have more information.
WE are not the ones who can spoon feed all details but we can provide some clues where to find the best research. Then it's up to you. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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poppy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5355
posted
Keebler, you are wasting your time with this guy. He is one of the lymeneteurope gang that like to sow dissension.
If he actually had lyme, got treated early and is symptom free, then none of this applies to him anyway. Cured he says. Fine. Goodbye.
Posts: 2888 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Point taken. I tend to have a hard time thinking - maybe - he's on the level and just doesn't get it and I'd hate for anyone to suffer needlessly for lack of proper treatment as I know how devastating that can be.
But, you are correct, poppy. I am wasting my precious time. Thanks for your input. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- One more point, though, Tom Grier's comment was taken out of context.
Again, until you see or read Maloney's presentation on the research parameters, it's going to be very difficult to put this in the proper context.
Until you see or read from MANY of the ILADS conference presentations, context will be elusive.
It's important to read everything Grier has written and also follow his own lyme battle. His case was very complex and required extensive & varied treatments over quite some time. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Let me try this,Keebler you post Dr Sapi"s study on Doxy creating cyst in the test tube all the time.Do you know of any studies that show that you can create,photograph, and culture, from Doxy created cysts in living tissue,into infectious spirochetes.YES OR NO.If the answer is yes, show it to me.
-------------------- nn Posts: 103 | From Northen Neck Va | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
Give her a break. It's not her job or anyone else's to prove anything to you.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- That was ONE link to consider of MANY I posted with that set.
As anyone here will tell you, I never post just one link - ever. If you want to go back to that set where I posted that, you will see many other links that are necessary to go along with that.
ILADS' site is one of those - with the conference links.
And, still, it's just the beginning of study. But, in case you are (maybe) serious about this for your own research - it will take YEARS of study. Really, YEARS, especially when one is ill.
That is why it's best to have the most experienced and educated doctor possible. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by nnecker: Sixgk,if people with a different view about Lyme and it's treatment of it, then almost all who post here, are not welcome here,then please post it on your home page.
I was referring to the bickering TONE, not what was being said. This thread overall has a hostile tone to it, which is why the moderators are keeping an eye on it. Threads like this go south quickly.
You seem to be challenging people, not asking for information you genuinely want.
It's not about having a different point of view. In fact, I'm personally against abx treatment for Lyme unless it's in the early stage, so clearly, we allow different viewpoints. I greatly respect TF and Tutu, who support Dr. B's treatment methods. There are many viewpoints represented on Lymenet. And we all have mutual respect for each other.
The difference on this thread is tone. This thread is hostile. So far, I haven't deleted anything or warned anyone, but I am getting close to closing it since the original questions have been answered.
And, it's not *my* board nor *my* homepage.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Give her a break. It's not her job or anyone else's to prove anything to you.
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