posted
I'm assuming I have babesia because I have terrible chills and sweats.
I want to know why when I take a hot bath afterwards I cannot cool down but kinda have a chill also. It's like it takes forever for my body to get regulated.
Posts: 415 | From USA | Registered: Jun 2012
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Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
That's what babs does. I had chills 24/7 after my last tick bite. They lasted for about a month, then calmed down. I still get chills, but it's from a/c, or the freezer, or when I get out of the shower. The sweats are typical too. Try a low fat diet (it's helping me).
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
it happens for other reasons too. it happened to a friend regularly. but i dont understnad it all...maybe too much detox...maybe related to mag, hydrogen peroxide or epsom salt
he could get sick for a week after one bath
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Razzle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 30398
posted
Sounds like a herx from the heat of the bath, or maybe toxins moving around causing symptoms...
Suggest maybe staying in the bath a shorter time, like maybe only 10 minutes instead of 20... Or just starting with foot baths for 5 minutes no more often than once a week...
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Every now and then, there is someone with lyme who does great with heat. However, that is rare. Generally:
Got Lyme? AVOID HEAT
It could take up to a week or so to recover from a hot bath, in my sad experiences (multiple times until I figured this out and then followed the "MS" advice about avoiding heat, as that relates to lyme, too).
Most with lyme should avoid hot baths or hot showers - and avoid getting overheated.
Heat can have some devastating effects on the
heart,
the adrenals,
the liver,
the nerves (with lyme, the myelin sheath around nerves is often compromised and heat makes that worse).
Nerve fibers, as mentioned can take a huge hit but also:
Nervous systems that are often dysfunctional with lyme.
The BRAIN too, takes a hit from heat and then all systems can go haywire, so to speak.
It someone has swelling in their brain, heat is downright dangerous. And lyme often causes inflammation and swellling.
IMO, it should be in the new "owner's manual" for anyone diagnosed with lyme: avoid heat.
This is also why regular saunas are to be avoided and only low-heat infrared saunas are suggested.
A warm, cozy bath for no longer than 20 is best. But never hot. But even 10 minutes may be maximum time for some, or at some times.
Just don't get chilled. You can keep the water nice and toasty warm if if cools down. To get chilled can also have negative effects. Keep a steady temperature, no extremes.
Hope you feel better soon. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Well that totally isn't something I've heard before. Is there anywhere I can get more info about avoiding heat? Everyone else around me is telling me to detox with really hot Epsom salt baths and that heat kills borrelia.
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- It is absolutely impossible to safely get the body hot enough to kill borrelia without killing the patient.
"Detox" methods should ALWAYS be gentle.
The benefits from increased circulation and oxygen supply can be attained with GENTLE methods, and warmth does just fine in that regard.
Warm water will prompt sweating just fine, too.
"Really hot" baths can cause some very serious damage, even permanent in some cases.
[I became unable to walk for about a month once after a hot bath but it took me a long time to figure this out and repeatedly set myself way back with hot baths. Huge mistakes.]
Look to the "MS" sites about this. Just Google:
MS, heat
MS, cooling vests
How it applies to those with a dx of MS (which can be caused by lyme or other stealth infection) also applies to us but we also have to consider the other systems above.
Take each of those systems or organs listed and then see how pushing any of those can be hard with lyme. Heat is pushing, so if pushing in general clobbers those systems / organs, heat will, too.
If your body has negative reactions to heat, it's imperative to heed that warning for backing off of the heat could literally save your life. Heat can be that dangerous to those with lyme who are sensitive to it.
A bath should be enjoyable, keep that as the focus and you'll likely do better in all regards from the experience.
Heat can hammer.
GENTLE warmth works well to provide a more enjoyable experience, with more consistent results.
Gentleness is the best way to proceed, generally, in all matters. Easy goes it, so you can enjoy the experience and the results.
---------------
[Again, there will always be the exceptions - one or two who can brave, enjoy and thrive from high heat that would melt most others. Those folks already know who they are but should still be careful to listen to any changes about how their bodies may, or may not continue to, tolerate heat with the addition of lyme, et.al.] -
[ 09-15-2012, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
A very warm epsom salt bath relieves my deep body aches. Maybe you're getting it just a little too warm? I wonder if you try it a little cooler if you'd have better results?
Posts: 463 | From Sandusky, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
Yea I definitely have negative results with heat and cold. My LLMD says to induce a false fever and sweat it out! I'm so glad you told me of this!
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- "Induce a false fever" can be interpreted a few different ways but it would seem to be a harsh approach as most would interpret it.
But, it can be as gentle as warming up just one degree. You can promote a gentle sweat . . . high heat is not required.
For some with neurolyme, even one degree more is all they can take. Really.
Most LLMDs would caution against high heat, especially those who are experienced in treatment of neuroborreliosis.
If your LLMD suggests high hot heat, I would question whether he's ILADS educated or not. I know the term "hot bath" can even have different meanings and some LLMDs many use that term but then caution as to the specifics.
Bottom line: I hope your doctor understand the possible dire results from heat that is too high for too long - for your body even if just one degree too high for YOU.
With autonomic and sympathetic nervous system damage, lyme patients thermostats can be "broken" and then there are all the other concerns, mainly, your liver may not be able to tolerate more heat. Or your heart. Or your adrenals.
With adrenal dysfunction that often comes with lyme, heat can be horrific.
If he or she does not know that, that would give me pause.
Google: neuroborreliosis, heat intolerance
In line with catgirl's first reply above:
Also important to be assessed for Babesia if you've not yet done so. Chills as you describe can be part of the babesia experience. -
[ 09-15-2012, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- THE LIVER & HEAT
Looking back at your posting history, you said that your LLMD (?) said milk thistle is of no good.
I hope you cleared up that communication with him and hope you found that he may have other ideas for liver support. If he has not instructed you in liver support, a hot bath WILL be harder on your body.
With infection and with Rx, the liver is pushed to the max. Put it in heat and it will just be forced to TRY to work harder but can't. Toxins will spill out into your body (in a manner of speaking) and then you will feel worse.
The same thing can happen with any physical activity that may be too taxing. Your liver has to be able to process out the increased load from activity and from heat.
I truly hope your doctor guided you with other liver support methods if he did not like milk thistle.
You can refer to back to your thread for liver support links here:
Topic: Doctor with MS recovers: shares nutrients & pivotal diet
Focus: "Minding My Mitochondria" by Terry Wahls, MD
"TED Talks" Video and book links.
SUPPORT for MYELIN SHEATH (protective coating around nerves that can be compromised with lyme and "MS" - when so, heat exhaustion is felt much more intensely)
& MITOCHONDRIA SUPPORT discussed. -
[ 06-15-2017, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
When I asked my dr about milk thistle they said ah does no good. The dr then proceeded to tell me I needed questran (cholestryramine). Do you know anything about this? Dr said it would help my gut issues.
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philly78
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
I do well with heat. It is the cold I cannot tolerate. But as Keebler stated...I'm the minority.
You can try a warm...not hot....bath and add some ginger to help promote sweating.
-------------------- When faced with pain you have two choices....either quit and accept the circumstances, OR make the decision to fight with all the resources you have at your disposal. Posts: 1000 | From PA | Registered: Mar 2011
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Messa,
Cholestryramine can help remove toxins from the body but it is NOT a liver support, as such. It cannot protect the liver the way milk thistle can.
Milk thistle and cholestryramine can complement each other but they are not interchangeable.
I could not tolerate cholestryramine (it's not an easy thing to take and some do great with it and others do not).
If tolerated, it can be very helpful in capturing toxins in the gut but it's still not enough liver support, IMO. You need the support FIRST so the toxicity level doesn't get as high to begin with.
There are many past threads here about cholestryramine. Search in the subject line here:
Chronic Neurotoxins site - Cholestryramine detail will be here but it's not easy to find. You might also search: Shoemaker, cholestyramine
Some LLMDs suggest this as PART of a detox protocol, for some patients.
But be aware that this site is not at all about "liver support" as I refer to it. Not about herbs or nutritional methods detailed in the liver support thread. That's just not their focus nor their educational training. -
[ 09-16-2012, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Messa,
Timaca is a trusted poster here at LymeNet. She is not a lightweight with any part of this complex treatment. She educates herself well and has good common sense in how she proceeds with anything.
Her experience with cholestyramine
was similar to mine (it made me sick as H---, even with repeated tries. I will never take it again as - in my case - it lowered the seizure threshold to dangerous levels and the seizures were stronger and longer
but also just made me feel so horrible every minute on it).
Cpn Help site, search results for "cholestyramine"
[Cpn is a chronic stealth infection and the multifaceted treatment protocol is similar to that of lyme. Some with lyme also have Cpn and visa versa.] -
[ 09-16-2012, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- While Cholestyramine might still be something you investigate, IMO, any doctor who suggests that should also be educated in other methods of support. There is no one-size fits all so flexibility really helps.
Yet, it's really difficult for (and probably unrealistic to expect) any doctor to have all the tools as lyme & co. is just so very complex. You might seek out a LL ND to complement your treatment approach.
posted
Thank you very much! I'll check all of this out. I'm taking the milk thistle anyway. I've heard too many good things about it.
Did the questran also make you sick to your stomach? I can't tell a difference since starting it a week ago. Will it take a while? What should I be noticing?
Posts: 415 | From USA | Registered: Jun 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Yes, cholestyramine made me feel very ill to my stomach - and my brain, too. I lasted just one month on it and then tried several other times for maybe a week at a time but finally just divorced cholestyramine, totally.
I had to stop because it increased seizures and lowered the sensory startle reaction so severely, even if seizures were not triggered. But that was MY body. I just couldn't do cholestyramine.
Remember that this will take out good nutrients from your body so you need to time nutrition around this.
I did not take the brand name but got it plan from Hopkinton pharmacy in the Boston area.
Be sure that the Questran you are taking has no additives, especially artificial sweeteners. Some "lite" versions do and, IMO, no one with lyme should consume even a trace of any artificial sweetener. They are neuro toxic.
"Natural Flavors" also need to be avoided as, often, they are really MSG by another name.
Where I got my cholestyramine link below, they did add Stevia but it was WAY too sweet so I had them take that down to nearly nothing. I don't care about taste. I just gulped it down, maybe added some carob root powder, though.
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