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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » how long for prophylactic care?

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Author Topic: how long for prophylactic care?
gigimac
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My husband went for a walk and the next day discovered two ticks attached to his back.


I am obviously recommending doxy immediately. I say let's not take a chance. I never got a bulls eye rash and got horribly ill all the same.

How long and what dose do you think, just to be sure?

Posts: 1534 | From Greensboro NC | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TF
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28 days of doxy, 400 mg per day. But, you are going to find it difficult if not impossible to get that much for him.

If you can get 200 mg per day for 14 days, you will have gotten the best likely from a regular doctor.

If you can get that from 2 walk-in clinics, then he could take both Rxs together for a total of 400 mg per day for 2 weeks.

When this has happened to my husband, I have watched him carefully for symptoms for a few months. He has never had any lyme symptoms. Some summers, he will find an attached tick 3 times during the summer. Then, we have the battle of getting doxy 3 times! So, it is a continual surveillance.

In addition, if you get doxy rxs from more than one provider, I don't know if your insurance will raise a stink or not.

In addition, there is now a doxy shortage. This has caused the cost of doxy to skyrocket. I am now paying almost 10 times the copay I paid early in the year. So, you may find it extremely, extremely expensive to get this doxy for your husband.

See the current "Doxy Shortage" thread to see what people are paying for 100mg and higher pills:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/123265

(My husband takes 50 mg doxy per day for ocular rosacea. The copay was $2.50 for a 3 month supply. Now, a few weeks ago, the copay for his refill was $23!!!)

If you happen to have some left over doxy that was originally prescribed for you, be sure it is less than a year old before you give it to him. Doxy that is expired can actually be quite dangerous. If you end up needing a medical reference (website) for this statement, let me know and I'll see if I can find it again. Doxy breaks down after the expiration date, unlike most meds.

Also, a few years after I got rid of lyme disease, I got bit again and got the bulls eye. I went to my lyme doctor. He put me on a few meds for 30 days, covering both lyme and the coinfections.

About 3 days into taking the meds, I had a very mild but noticeable herx. I would begin to do things and get totally exhausted in no time. I would have to lay down. After about 20-30 minutes of rest, I felt good, so I would get up and go again. The same thing would happen to me again. I was up and down (doing things and having to quickly go rest) all day.

My lyme doctor considered this a herx. So, he said that I had evidently gotten "the real thing" when I got that bulls eye. (Some bulls eyes are not the type of lyme disease that disseminates. Some types of lyme cause only the bulls eye and nothing else.)

So, if you get your hubby on doxy, tell him to look out for any strange occurrences like what I described (getting played out extremely quickly) or any other suspicous symptoms.

If he notices anything that could be classified as a herx once he is on meds, then you must get him to a lyme doctor.

And, finally, if that were not enough, be sure that he stays totally out of the sun while on doxy. Otherwise, he could get the dreaded doxy burn. It is nasty. Hands are most susceptible, even from sun through the windshield while driving. It is dangerous to take doxy in the summer due to this medication burn possibility.

And, he must take the pills in the middle of a meal. If he doesn't, he will get terrible stomach upset, reflux, even vomiting and will not be able to continue.

So, all in all, you will go through a lot to treat him for these bites.

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Keebler
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Not all ticks are infected but we know we can't take chances and that, if infected, the sooner the better.

IMO, though, doxycylcine - alone - is never a good idea - even with the first dose, I think there needs to be another agent to prevent the cystic form from developing. That could happen just 20 minutes after a dose of doxycycline.

Start here:

http://www.treatthebite.com/

TREAT THE BITE


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=124481;p=0

Topic: "Preventative" dose of doxy?

It could be 30 weeks, according to one LL author. See link here.

This thread discusses embedded ticks, attachment time, cyst form, chronic lyme development chances from treatment with doxycyline, alone.
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[ 06-01-2013, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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http://www.anapsid.org/lyme/lymeseroneg.html

Reasons for False Negative (Seronegative) Test Results in Lyme Disease


Co-infections also have to be considered, including parasites. Doxycycline will not address all tick borne infections. And, for erhlichia, a higher dose is required than that for lyme. Detail:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=015508;p=0

Diagnosing Lyme Disease (&/or whatever else is going on)

Other tick-borne infections and other chronic stealth infections - as well as certain conditions that can hold us back - are discussed here.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/122300/3?

Topic: PARASITE WARRIORS SUPPORT THREAD
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Keebler
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Good to get liver support on board from the start (because so many Rx can be very hard on the liver):

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=030792;p=0

LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too.


PROBIOTICS also key to help preventing system fungal infections that can develop from antibiotic use. Search diet advice for CANDIDA

TIME APART all supplements, basically keeping separate by a couple hours of the clock in both directions:

Rx

Supplements

Probiotics
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Keebler
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Now, as no one wants to take Rx if not needed but (with testing not effective at the very start) we understand the risks with that are less than letting a possible tick-borne infection develop and missing a crucial window of opportunity before a chronic infection might take hold.

Not every tick is infected, of course, but it's impossible to know since the window of opportunity is very slim. Lyme can reach the nervous system within 12 hours of a bite.

It seems wise to start treatment but also send the tick off for testing. It's just that even tests directly on ticks are no alway perfect and they don't test for all possible infections.

Still, if the tick does test positive for lyme at least that information really helps to formulate a full course plan. If it does not test positive, though, that is no guarantee of absence of lyme.

A different option to address this early on might also be a Rife machine:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=117755;p=0

Topic: RIFE Machine - Reference LINKS

LL Naturopathic links & herbal support detail here, too.
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[ 06-01-2013, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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You likely know this but also for any new comers who may see this thread:


If taking doxycycline:

Keep torso upright for an hour after taking

Take with food (but not dairy)

STAY OUT OF SUN - totally - take cover, even in the car and avoid windows if sun is streaming in.
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Lymetoo
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Since the life cycle is 3-5 wks, I would want 6-8 wks of 400mg a day.

www.TreatTheBite.com

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Keebler
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The "life cycle" coverage - or the need to cover a certain number of life cycles - can be seen in different ways.

So, it's important to also consider that this very LL author says that a minimum of 30 weeks treatment - combination treatment - is required - for a start.

Especially see last four lines below.

Other forms of lyme and the need for combination treatment also disccussed but, still, this is mostly about lyme. OTHER infections would also need the similar consideration regarding the types of Rx and timing.

Not discussed here but also addressing BIOFILM is vital to any treatment protocol. If that is missed, there is greater chance of treatment failure.


http://www.clinicaladvisor.com/controversy-continues-to-fuel-the-lyme-war/article/117160/

CONTROVERSY CONTINUES TO FUEL THE "LYME WAR" - 2007

Excerpts:

. . . Each of these forms is affected by different types of antibiotics. If an antibiotic targets the bacterium's cell wall, the spirochete will quickly morph into a cell-wall-deficient form or cyst form to evade the chemical enemy. . . .

. . . Within the tick gut are hundreds of different types of pathogens . . . .

. . . Phase and antigenic variations allow B. burgdorferi to change into pleomorphic forms to evade the immune system and antibiotics.

The three known forms are the spiral shape that has a cell wall, the cell-wall-deficient form known as the �L-form� (named not for its shape but for Joseph Lister, the scientist who first identified these types of cells), and the dormant or latent cyst form.

Encapsulating itself into the inactive cyst form enables the spirochete to hide undetected in the host for months, years, or decades until some form of immune suppression initiates a signal that it is safe for the cysts to open and the spirochetes to come forth and multiply.

Each of these forms is affected by different types of antibiotics. If an antibiotic targets the bacterium's cell wall, the spirochete will quickly morph into a cell-wall-deficient form or cyst form to evade the chemical enemy.

Borrelia burgdorferi has an in vitro replication cycle of about seven days, one of the longest of any known bacteria.

Antibiotics are most effective during bacterial replication, so the more cycles during a treatment, the better.

Since the life cycle of Streptococcus pyogenes (the bacterium that causes strep throat) is about eight hours, antibiotic treatment for a standard 10 days would cover 30 life cycles.

To treat Lyme disease for a comparable number of life cycles, treatment would need to last 30 weeks. . . .
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[ 06-01-2013, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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TF
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From page 19 of Burrascano:

"TICK BITES - Embedded Deer Tick With No Signs or Symptoms of Lyme (see appendix):

Decide to treat based on the type of tick, whether it came from an endemic area, how it was removed, and length of attachment (anecdotally, as little as four hours of attachment can transmit pathogens). The risk of transmission is greater if the tick is engorged, or of it was removed improperly allowing the tick's contents to spill into the bite wound. High-risk bites are treated as follows (remember the possibility of co-infection!):

1) Adults: Oral therapy for 28 days.
2) Pregnancy: Amoxicillin 1000 mg q6h for 6 weeks. Test for Babesia, Bartonella and Ehrlichia.
Alternative: Cefuroxime axetil 1000 mg q12h for 6 weeks.
3) Young Children: Oral therapy for 28 days.

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gigimac
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I have quite a bit of Doxy left over and it is only a couplemonths old.

The ticks were not engorged and were probably on him no more than 8 hrs.

Keebler, I am doing good getting him to take the Doxy and I am not sure what should be given for cysts early on.

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Lymetoo
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gigi.. make sure he takes probiotics!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

Posts: 96227 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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