Topic: Traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture and lyme
Marz
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Other than Zhang I don't see TCM discussed here much.
I kind of accidentally started acupuncture by going to a place where I thought I'd get a Chinese herb recommended to me.
The Chinese doctor said she's helped people with lyme.
Have had 5 treatments and started a Chinese herb combo that she recommended. Seems like my heart palpitations are not as strong or frequent and I have a little more energy.
Has anyone been helped by this over a period of time?
Even though it's covered by my insurance, I don't want to waste what they pay for this.
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Judie
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Can you talk to the acupuncturist's prior Lyme patients (perhaps connect with them through a local support group) and find out their experiences?
Before my friend knew she had Lyme, an acupuncturist helped her control her symptoms (she had horrible pain). She herxed from the herbs.
This helped with the symptoms, but as soon as she stopped the treatments after a year ALL the symptoms came back even worse.
She eventually had to do the conventional/integrative route with a Lyme doc.
For me, I just got reinfected with Lyme early last month. I've been seeing a TCM doc for awhile to help with methylation after going into remission last year (I treated at a tick clinic last year).
She wanted to treat me without antibiotics and just do herbs/energy medicine.
I have to say it was a nightmare month and it wasn't a herx. My symptoms snowballed and had weird symptoms that I never had before.
I started self-treating with doxycycline and finally got some relief after feeling like I was in hell with no end in sight.
For me TCM may help with symptoms, but I have no faith that it would have helped me put Lyme in remission like the integrative doc helped with last year or with my friend.
That's just my experience though.
I have had good luck with acupuncture though. It can help with symptoms with the right practitioner.
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Keebler
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- Most NDs in the U.S. are trained in TCM. However, Zhang notes that his approach goes beyond that to MODERN Chinese Medicine . . . and nearly any LL ND has had to make certain adaptations as well - to consider the requirements & unique characteristics of lyme / TBD.
When considering herbal / nutritional / adjunct methods:
if at all possible - because each person & each case is different - it's best to consult with an ILADS-educated LL ND (lyme literate naturopathic doctor) (or similar) who has completed four years of post-graduate medical education in the field of herbal and nutritional medicine -
- and someone who is current with ILADS' research & presentations, past and present, and has completed the ILADS Physician Training Program (see: www.ilads.org )
Many LL NDs incorporate antibiotics (depending upon the licensing laws in their state). Some LLMDs and LL NDs have good working relationships.
When possible, it's great to have both a LLMD and LL ND and even better when they have a long-standing professional relationship.
Be aware that integrative doctors can have various levels of formal herbal &/or nutritional education, perhaps even just a short course. Do ask first. Some have learned on their own from experts in the field. There are many ways to acquire knowledge and most are eager to share basic details about their training. You want someone with a deep knowledge.
Some of the specialities above may not actually treat lyme yet, for things such as physical adjustments, it is just good that they are also LL, at least to some degree (to know never to suddenly twist the neck or spine).
Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:
Understanding of the importance of addressing the infection(s) fully head-on with specific measures from all corners of medicine;
knowing which supplements have direct impact, which are only support and which are both.
You can compare and contrast many approaches.
BASIC HERBAL EDUCATIONAL & SAFETY links,
BODY WORK links with safety tailored to lyme patients,
LOW HEAT INFRARED SAUNA detail,
BIOPHOTON - BIONIC 880 (& PE-1) links, and
RIFE links. -
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Marz
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I really like this Chinese practitoner. She was born in China and got her training at a University there.
So much of TCM is a mystery to me, but she was "right on" in what she knew from reading my pulse/tongue.
Unfortunately NDs are few and far between where I live and one that I saw wasn't very helpful.
I heard Dr B Saturday night at ILADS talking about boosting our immunity and then able to live with the bacteria.
Thought there's some similarity with Chinese medicine in that idea.
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Judie
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I suppose what matters is "why" you're doing TCM and "what" you expect.
Is it to completely get rid of Lyme or is it to control symptoms?
The thing to keep in mind about TCM is that it's all about supporting the body and helping your immune system.
It's not as much about killing off an invader.
The problem I had was that my immune system is a mess already. Even if it's supported at full speed, it just wouldn't have the power to fight off Lyme and it's co-infections.
For example, my neighbor has a kick-ass immune system. He knew he had Lyme (had the bulls-eye rash) and waited 8 months to treat.
He didn't start until he had heart-palpitations.
He just took amoxicillin for awhile from his PCP (he couldn't even remember how long). No other support.
Even with his immune system, he still needed antibiotics to get rid of it.
This was several years ago and he's been fine ever since. No relapse.
It really depends on your own constitution and what you realistically expect from any treatment.
If you're happy with the energy it gives you and the lessening of heart symptoms, it might be worth it to pursue for those reasons alone.
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Marz
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What you say makes sense to me Judie. I was diagnosed 9 months too late and got well after brief treatment, a relapse and longer treatment next time with only doxy.
But symptoms came back years later. I think because I was much younger back in the beginning and didn't have severe lyme, but now that I'm older and constantly stressed, I'm not able to fight it off as easily.
Have been doing Buhner with LLMD right now, but had gone through 18 months of abx a while back.
Your neighbor sort of sounds like me. But my constitution must be getting weaker.
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Brussels
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Hi Keebler,
I wonder how most NDs are trained in TCM in the US. I know it takes about 5 years to train in ONE of the areas (like acupuncture) and more 5 years to train in herbs. These are totally SEPARATE studies, meaning, it takes very long to specialize into one or another area.
And according to a nurse friend of mine who went to China and did a specialization in pulse reading, she said, after the course, it will take you about more 5 years of PRACTICE under someone who is good in doing that, just to start to feel confident about reading pulses.
Anyway, I hope these people who practice TCM are not saying they do that after a one year course on both fields, herbs and acupuncture, for example.
If you think there are many herbs available in the west, forget about that. There are many more of them used by the Chinese. And not in simple formulas, but in combined formulas. They are the masters for combining herbs, no other tradition can do what they do, in my opinion.
But to find a good practioner, is almost impossible. Many study in good universities, but not all have really the flair to do that well.
anyway, I used many Chinese herbs long ago, against lyme and coinfections. And I think I was rather successful in fighting persistent infections like babesiosis and bartoneliosis.
At that time, I didn't know about photon treatments, so I had to go the normal way, mostly by herbs. Without Chinese herbs,I think I wouldn't have beaten a persistent babesia infection.
If the practioner does not know about infections too much, at least, Chinese herbs can help supporting the body systems, and energy flow. It is already something very positive. But if you can test energetically to find which herb can kill each pathogen you are targeting, the Chinese pharmacopeia is wonderful.
I'm almost sure one could do only Chinese herbs and fight lyme and most infections, as alternatives are huge.
Specially if you combine herbs, you can have an AMAZING palette of treatments. For a very low price, in case you do your own tinctures, decoctions, teas and mixtures.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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What you need to find out is if the herbs the Chinese doc suggests are only for symptoms or are they killing herbs.
I believe strongly that Chinese medicine is a valid treatment for many illnesses, especially if the doc is actually trained in China. But I do not think many of the real Chinese herbalists have experience dealing with lyme and coinfections. They are good at what they know in other words.
Yes, it is always a good idea to talk to other patients.
Personally, I think if you can afford it taking herbs, nutritional supplements and antibiotics all is the best approach. Each thing helps in different ways. Some people are lucky and only need antibiotics, but the longer you have been sick then the more help the body needs to recover.
There are a couple other Chinese herb protocols on the web besides Dr Z -- but careful study will show that they are mostly copycats of Buhner or Dr Z.
Acupuncture is supposed to be good for pain. If it works -- great. Then if not, move on to something else.
Personally I would not rely on herbs alone -- either Western or Chinese.
What you will often find is that many people started with antibiotics and then added herbs to antibiotics or switched to herbs only.
I don't think you will find many that only took herbs and made a full recovery.
Each person is different of course, but as with everything in lyme, there are no studies using herbs only so everything you read is anecdotal. It does not mean the info is invalid -- just that the results are not proven. Anyone can say anything and just like people wonder what a doctor's real success rate is there is even less way to know an herbalists true success rate.
Bea Seibert
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Keebler
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- Marz,
Sorry that LL NDs are so hard to find in many states. Still, I hope the links set will be of help with the articles and books by LL NDs, etc. To compare notes.
Bea,
PubMed does have many medical abstracts regarding herbs. However, with lyme, the kinds of studies typically used for other reasons don't quite translate. Still, PubMed is a wonderful resource. There are other research links in the LL ND links set.
As you did note, not all NDs / herbalist are the same. That links set above should help clarify.
Brussels,
The ND coursework is rigorous and detailed. There are 4 - 5 naturopathic colleges in the U.S. Bastyr University in the Seattle area's website offers more detail on the coursework.
The links in that set are how to find NDs who have the typical four + years of medical college in naturopathic medicine but many go beyond that, too. This is post graduate, after college degrees in related science or health fields.
Some can get both acupuncture and ND certification and, yes, it takes many years. Acupuncture training varies yet still covers some of the same work as NDs, still, one can check the training and all that.
All the links are there to find NDs (and similar) with the proper education and certification. Beyond that, what I stress is the importance of their also being ILADS educated.
Not all states have the same kinds of certification system (and - sadly - not all states will allow NDs to practice under any system, due to political pressures.). Links in that set explain. -
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Keebler
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- Marz,
You mention " boosting our immunity" (with support supplements).
While some use this term with the understanding that it is not "boosting" at all but "balance" and "support" that is key . . . anyone who is ILADS educated (such as Dr. B) will NOT "boost" as someone not LL / ILADS educated might do.
Lyme sort of flips the way the immune system functions. What might be a "boost" to someone else can totally clobber someone with lyme.
So, not just how someone might use that word but their background really matters when they advise anything along these lines.
Same goes for adrenal / energy "boosting" "Boosting" is never a good idea as that can push us off the tracks. Again, though, a lot depends on what someone means by use of that term.
The idea is to offer "support" to go for "balance" or "modulation" so it's not a rocket-fuel effect. -
[ 10-22-2013, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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I use PubMed frequently and agree it is a great resource. But each herb must be researched individually. What I was trying to say is that there are not even any published case studies in the medical literature let alone formal herb trials of even a single herb let alone an herbal protocol such as Z or Buhner in regard to tickborne diseases.
There are some studies of Indonesian herbs used in Babesia for dogs by the Chinese for example, but no human studies. And other herbs may have been tested on rats or hamsters for example, but not on humans. Yes, there is some overlap with malaria, but it has not really been researched in depth.
Hubby used Buhner herbs, Chinese herbs and other Western herbs based on my reading and research. And he did consult with lyme literate herbalists and nutritionists. But that was all adjunctive treatment to the prescription meds.
There are fewer people that use herbs then there are those who use meds so there is less data.
I am definitely not anti-herb. Whatever works. But since herbs are not regulated the same way meds are it is easy for people to post testimonials etc that may or may not be valid claims. Buyer beware and do your own research with herbs, just like in everything in the tickborne world of medicine.
Bea Seibert
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Judie
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It really depends on the level of the TCM doctor.
I've done both Naturopathic Medicine and Chinese Medicine for several years (I've worked with several TCM practitioners).
If you go the TCM route, I find it best to work with one of the old-school practitioners who do custom herbs that you boil up and make into decoctions. This way the formula can be customized for your particular body.
I felt better doing this, but eventually I did reach a road block and just stopped progressing. This was several years ago, before Lyme but for other health problems like a poisoning that I was recovering from.
When I stopped the herbal decoction, all my symptoms came back in full force. It was just suppressing what was going on but it DID suppress the symptoms which was a relief.
A lot of newer practitioners do pills and there isn't the ability to customize the formulas. This is what made me stop doing TCM. There just wasn't enough flexibility.
Some do custom tinctures and that could be good too if you can find one.
I've tried the TCM pills, but had several allergic reactions to them. There's just no way to customize these or eliminate something that may be a problem.
I've had better results with my ND because they do study western medicine and I can take my test results in for analysis.
We don't do a zillion herbs for me to feel better, just a few select ones to target what's going on.
I've had no allergic reactions to the herbs my ND prescribes.
Here are some other ND searches. There's nothing wrong with getting another opinion.
You might also want to call some of the colleges to see if there's anyone in your area. I had to talk to someone in another state to find a referral to a person who practiced by me.
Bastyr University Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine
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Marz
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This Chinese practitioner recommended I not take the antimicrobials that my LLMD had me taking.
What do you think about the TCM theory that herbs are cooling or warming. She said they were too cooling for me.
I read somewhere that people with lyme are "cold".
It also bothers me that my LLMD has me off the antimicrobials for two weeks, then back on. I'm in that two week period and don't know what to believe now after seeing TCM practitioner.
Thanks for all the info everyone.
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Keebler
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- If the practitioner is NOT ILADS educated and thoroughly lyme & TBD literate, I would not follow their advice.
They may be brilliant but are missing a huge piece if not LL / TBD L and ILADS educated (not so much they follow Dr. B's guidelines but they know all about the why's and wherefore's and what else can serve the same purposes).
Lyme is "hot" is is a very aggressive "yang" infection.
A two-week break of abx is common. Pulsing can be very helpful.
Bottom line: who ever you see must have the highest degree of wisdom in all matters, not just some. Together, these two should be working together for you but it seems like they are not.
Some LLMDs know LL NDs and have good working relationships. The common thread is being ILADS educated about how these infections work and what they do to a body. Then how to think around all that. -
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I have a hard time believing that an ND can spend 3 years studying general ND courses and then in the 4th year specialize either in Acupuncture or Homeoapthy, which is how the schools are set up to my understanding. One year of study in either Acupuncture or TCM, or homeopathy does not make a TCM doctor nor a skilled homeopath.
My ND who went to the school in Portland said that they spend one year in either oriental medicine or in Homeopathy. I do not see him doing either classical homoeapthy nor TCM in his clinic but uses lessor applications of each.
In Arizona to become a homoepath the training is 3 years and I think maybe one school is pressing to 4 years. I agree with Brussels, no way can someone sufficiently learn TCM in an ND school. TCM is a whole dicipline in and of itself and its paradigm is quite different that what NDs learn.
Many people with a western orientation and linear thinking mind set never really can get TCM. there are TCM schools available in the US.
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I'm in the Houston area and would love to find a good TCM, Chinese trained acupuncturist, have a great one in Dallas. It's good for stabilizing systems, treating too hot/cold, balancing energies, etc, it may not be a cure all, but all works together, can help antibiotics to be more effective by clearing areas of chassis or stagnation, etc.
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Keebler
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- TCM is not the end-all, be-all. I wasted 5 years and thousands of dollars working with someone trained in TCM in China, with additional education but because he only thought he knew all about lyme and really did not, his skill level was extremely inadequate for someone with lyme and other TBD of years standing.
Just as with an MD, if an ND is not really LL & TBD literate, IMO, they simply are not adequate. At this point in time, ILADS provides the best "education" and association avenues for that.
Not that all LLMDs or all LL NDs practice the same way (which is fine) but that that members all are exposed to the research and thought process during the annual conferences, other gatherings both formal and informal professional relationships -- as well as members' articles & books. The sharing of patient experiences is invaluable, too.
If they are, there are still difference in skill level and education. I have met and worked with (in limited capacity due to budget constraints) some excellent NDs who are ILADS educated. Most good NDs will draw upon various aspects of training.
TCM, itself, is a good foundation but it's not complete when it comes to TBD. It stops short but a wise practitioner will learn outside of that TCM sphere things that are required. Zhang's book explains this. I attended a lecture where he eloquently discussed this (and my 5-year mistake assuming the TCM ND had it all covered confirmed that). I wish that my words were so on point but do look into his professional growth in this regard for a bit more insight.
Someone can also be an excellent ND and not be of the strict TCM mode. -
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Judie
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"I have a hard time believing that an ND can spend 3 years studying general ND courses and then in the 4th year specialize either in Acupuncture or Homeoapthy"
From my understanding, the first few years are just like regular medical school.
Afterward that, instead of doing pharmacology studies (which is what regular docs do), NDs study herbs, nutrition, homeopathy and other ways to support the body.
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Judie
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"What do you think about the TCM theory that herbs are cooling or warming. She said they were too cooling for me."
I actually took a TCM class in college so hopefully I can help explain.
The way my teacher put it is organs can be hot or cold, the best is when they are in balance.
The hot and cold terms can be applied externally and internally to the body, they don't have to be in sync.
For example, someone could be totally bundled up and freezing on the outside but you'll see them eating an ice cream (cooling the insides).
Another example she gave was of a smoker that she treated. His heart was too cold and when he smoked, it brought his heart up to the right temperature because of the heat entering his lungs, but as soon as it cooled again, he would crave another cigarette.
She treated him by heating his heart area and eventually his cravings for cigarettes went away on their own.
Personally, I burn really hot. I need cooling stuff. Hot spices aggravate me like crazy, so cooling herbs sound great!
Are the herbs the LLMD wants you to take giving you relief?
I can understand the quandary that you're in since your hearing two different opinions.
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Keebler
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- In addition to Judie's post, you can find wonderful articles here at ITM, a research library of sorts just for TCM
In TCM, a "hot" condition is usually associated with "yang" and male, more aggressive, with "wind" etc. But it can also cause "wind" or other terms. All TCM terms regarding the characteristics of an illness or condition. Not the same for everyone, though, and not always even the same for a particular person as things shift due to various variables.
To balance that in an organ, a "yin" or cooler, more "feminine" herbs would be called into play. You can search here under various terms but you might start with "yin" & "yang" for a good explanation of "hot" and "cold" and balance.
"Stagnation" is a characteristic that can cause all kinds of pain and problems (not sure but think that is related to too much yin / cool and a warm herb might be of help to move things along, improve circulation, etc.
It's all about balance from this perspective. But it's not enough as herbs that just work to bring balance may not be effective in treating stealth infections (some may be of help but not necessarily or not enough). Targeting infections such at TBD with a stealth nature goes a bit beyond typical TCM theory.
A search of "TCM" brings up over 300 articles. One example (keep in mind that we all know that MS can be caused, at least in part by stealth infection):
[I hesitate posting this. While it has some good information and does address spirochetes but not deep enough nor in the cyst form, it also really misses the mark in several ways. It's helpful to a degree but the unique science of lyme - in light of the MIX of stealth infections - has not been fully explored in the writing of this article.
ILADS educated LL NDs would sort of start here and then take their efforts far beyond this approach. Still a good article but not complete.] -
[ 10-23-2013, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
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- Though not at all about lyme, this is one of the best reference resources on my bookshelf that has wonderful chapters, many graciously available through their website.
posted
NDs do study pharmacology and when they come out they can prescribe most of the drugs. Pfizer, a huge pharmaceutical company pumped in a million dollars at one point into Bastyr in Seattle.
Not all states permit NDs persecription pads. My state of Idaho does not, but Utah does. Nor can NDs do IV therapies in Idaho, but hey,Chiropractors can so quite a few NDs are also chiropractors so they can do the work they were trained to do. Its a confused mess.
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Ellen101
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Acupuncture does not work for me. I have seen three different practitioners and each time had an increase in pain.
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Keebler
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- Ellen,
I wonder if the L.Ac.s you've been are LL, or at least "fibromyalgia" literate?
As part of a clinic with lots of different interns over the years, and very (very) low fee, I was able to go but it always hurt and I had "payback" from the energy output but also more "wired"
I stuck with it, though. Wish I had known then that it takes an L.Ac. with a very special touch but also one who really understands that the toasted adrenal system of someone with lyme (or even the previous MISdiagnoses of FM or CFS) just needs it done differently.
Not too many needle (and not in the place of pain but a reference point), very little actual "chi" stimulation and nearly just in and out for the first many sessions. Then, gradually increase in time. It took me a long time to work up to the typical 20 minutes.
I've found two such ND/L.Ac.s who has this knowledge and touch yet both only partly "LL" -- within my budget whereas the LL ND / L.Ac. was not after a couple consults.
They also helped me in other ways with herb and questions, etc. I've not been able to go now for years but could really see improvement in pain level when I could. I felt a nice sense of well-being for up to 5 days afterward once I got in the groove.
The style of acupuncture can vary, too. But mostly, it's the skill level and intuitive touch of the L.Ac. As with any profession, individual skill varies.
Or, it also can be that this is just not the right modality for your body. I would still choose massage any day over acupuncture - after finally also finding the right LMT. [Too bad those days are long gone, though (due to budget). I think the world would be a better place if every human were able to get massage (or whatever other treatment worked for them) from cradle to grave.
There are also many styles, some are more soothing than others.
The thing is, though, that as helpful as these adjunct hands-on methods can be (at least for myself) when there is just a dollar left, it has to go to things that are a direct tool, rather than indirect. -
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Keebler
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- In the back of Zhang's book, there are pages of acupuncture suggestions for L.Ac.s treating lyme patients. (that link is listed in with the "how to find a LL ND" thread). -
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Marz
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This might sound strange, but I've wondered if the reason that I feel good immediately when I finish acupuncture is because I'm lying face down for about 20 minutes!
I know you all are probably laughing--but I know that's why a full body frontal hug feels so good!
Our sensitive nerve endings are on the front of our body.
The day after acupuncture this last time was bad. Heart palps and occipital pressure/heacache as usual before having started acupuncture.
But, I think I'm feeling warmer. Sometimes even feel like I'm running a slight temp.
It will take me a while to digest all your infor and read links.
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Keebler
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- Marz,
not laughing at all. As long as there is a cradle for the head so the neck is not compromised, lying face down can be a sort of body hug (as described by Temple Grandon, sp?)
If you feel warmer with acu tx, could be from increased circulation, a good thing.
As for taking time to read and digest links, bottom line is YOUR practitioner. If you know they are as well educated as possible in all matters that affect you and their work with you is helping, I'd say stick with them.
if you want to learn more, ask them what article, book, film, etc. might be of interest to you. IME, so much time and energy can be spent on "study" (and then leave us drained) so it helps to take it in small increments that are most helpful to us at that point in time.
I think it's also best to take "information breaks" and just let the process work. To me, a walk in nature, or singing a few songs with friends (or whatever nurtures you) is often better than any study session from a computer. -
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Keebler
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- Reference above about "hug" -- for those interested:
Google Advance Search: "hug machine" "Temple Grandin"
Then, go back to wikipedia and just see who she is.
There is a very good HBO produced move about her. A few months ago, I saw a talk with her on BookTV and she says no longer requires this but it helped her tremendously.
The idea of "hug therapy" pressure on nerve endings to stop spasms can be very helpful for those with lyme (as many are actually on the autism spectrum due to the hyperactivity of so many systems, caused by lyme).
I think that is why the right sytle of massage also worked so well for me. Much worse since not getting that anymore.
For those with good friends and family around, actual hug sessions can be very nice for all parties (as long as each is emotionally well grounded and clear of intent).
Remember to keep feet centered for balance as you come out of a hug -- and be near a wall if there are any balance issues. -
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Keebler
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Member # 12673
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- Whether face down or on back, there is a distinct advantage to lying FLAT enough for the brain to get better circulation, too. I read that about lyme and certianly know that when I'm exausted to the max that only lying flat will work. Even a nice recliner is too elevated for restorative rest.
But I think I read that in an adrenal book.
Although, lying flat still means good neck support in a pillow when on back. That is vital. Absolutely vital for anyone with lyme.
When lying on front, configure something like a cradle used with massage tables so that the neck is not strained. For women, a pillow either at the top of the chest or below bust can help if one happens to have the kind of massage table with a hole built in for the face rather than an attached cradle that connects to the end. -
[ 10-23-2013, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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