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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Bartonella Questions...

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Author Topic: Bartonella Questions...
sparklyholiday
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I have a few Bartonella quesitons... :-)

1. Can it give a false negative in much the same way Lyme can? I know that Lyme typically tests for the antibodies and if you aren't making antibodies, you'll test negative - is the same true for bart?)

2. Does doxy treat bartonella? And if so, can herxing cause the bartonella rash to come out?

3. Do you always have a rash that accompanies it? (meaning, can they come and go)?

4. Is a titer different than testing for antibodies?

5. Can bart cause a low CD57?

I'm asking b/c I've been having an increase in symptoms in the last few days. And so whenever that happens, I panic that I have something else and start googling.

Well I came across some onfo on bart and saw the rashes it can cause... that look splotchy and/or like cat scratches.

I'VE HAD RASHES LIKE THAT!!! Once a few months ago, I had what looked like cat scratches. I still have the picture b/c I took a picture to send to my friend to ask what he thought it was. And then it went away after a few days, then a few days ago, my symptoms started to get worse and I got these weird splotchy red spots on my left leg...

I thought maybe I scratched myself on accident or rubbed against something.... it was there for a day, then went away.

I have a lot of the other bart symptoms, but so many of those overlap with lyme... but the rash pictures blew me away.

Maybe it's just coincidence? Maybe I'm grasping at straws?

My doctor did test me for bart (among a ton of other co infections) and it was a titer that was negative.

Thanks so much!

Posts: 173 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
gmb
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None of the Bart tests are very accurate. There are too many strains and I think they only test for a couple.

It's good to have photos of the weird rashes. Yes they come and go spontaneously.


Rifampin is the go too drug for Bart and it is commonly used with Doxy. Not sure if Doxy alone is enough.


I'm going back to treat bart one more time after two years to see if that is what is contributing to slow babs progress.

Yes, so many sx overlap... you have to look at all possibilities.

gmb

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Dogsandcats
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I had scratches on my arm- looked the cat had done them.

He had scratched me, but his were a tad different.

I did not test positive for Bartonella. The doc did believe I had it, but can't remember what I was treated with for this bug.

The scratches itched too...

--------------------
God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

Billy Graham

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ticktox
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sparkly, a negative Bart test means nothing. There are some very specific Bart symptoms that allow you to differentiate from Lyme and Babesia. Lt & sd sensitivity, pressure in the head, pain in the soles of the feet. pain &/or burning deep in the bones and cognitive deficit as opposed to memory loss. Bart can really impede progress in treatment of Lyme. Doxy by itself does not treat Bart but it could bring on a Bart rash. Yes rash can come and go. No it doesn't cause low CD57. Bart is as common as Lyme but often missed even by LLMDs.
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'Kete-tracker
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Hi 'sparkly',

1) Yes.

2) No, not really. To hit "bart" good, you need to take a dose of an antibiotic from the "-floxacin" group daily. Also, rifampin & gentamicin are used frequently.

As far as "herxing", bart is not a spirochete so you can't "herx" when hitting it... by definition.
(People on this site use the term "herx" & "herxing" W-A-A-A-Y too loosely.)
Read up on the Jarsch-Herxheimer reaction. The "delay" (in hours) between starting an anti-spirochetal medicine & the flare in symptomology is directly related to the sophistication of the 'kete & the potentcy of the antibiotic. Folks recovering from syphilis, for example, will experience a herx in only ~6 hours as the 'kete is pretty basic.

3) No. Absolutely not. Everyone's symptomology differs, though there are common signs which help in it's diagnosis.

4) A numerical 'titer' result (pronounced "tighter") IS usually a quantitative test for the presence of a specific anti-body group, whether it be for bartonella, or borrelia like B. Burgdorferi.

5) Nope. The only pathogen known to commonly affect humans that can cause a 'suppressed' "CD-57 count" (a sub-set of our "killer" white blood cells) is the Lyme bacteria. But the count in a healthy individual varies. That's why it's the CHANGE in the CD-57 count can [help] guide the practitioner as to whether the present protocol is working. ;-)

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sparklyholiday
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Thanks so much guys! I am definitely going to ask my dr about it... I feel really confident that I may have bart.

The rashes really floored me b/c my rashes that come and go look just like the streaky bart rashes! I had NO idea -- I just thought I had sensetive skin.

Then I posted another thread about edema and clear urine and Greta also mentioned bart there... so I am definitely going to read up on it and ask my doctor. I have a follow up on Tuesday!

Thanks so much!

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GretaM
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'Kete-tracker: I disagree slightly the reference to herxing as only happening with spirochetes on Wikipedia.

That is what it implies on Wiki, but that is not the entire story. It looks like the only examples are with spirochetes and other tbd's but a herxheimer reaction can occure with any bacteria that produces an endotoxin.

The bacteria, yet unnamed, that causes sarcoidosis causes life-threatening herxes when it is killed.

Bartonella does indeed cause herx reactions. I can attest to that, although reluctantly, as I don't like to use the term "herx" either.

And believe you me, I was of the mindset that the majority of herxes are merely a regular symptom of a sufferer, noticed as being more prominent because of the power of the mind and the logical action-reaction leaps our minds make.

Until my mom almost died from one. 6 weeks of hospitalization until they realized her symptoms flared within a certain time frame of taking her antibiotics for sarcoidosis.

And upon further investigation, it happened to several patients treating sarcoidosis and they no longer use that antibiotic because the die-off is so severe.

But I do understand your point about the term being used loosely, I just wanted to clarify it is not just spirochetes that can cause a herx, as stated on Wikipedia.

I am not criticizing you at all. I hate placing opposing views on here because I don't want it to come across as criticism. It is so hard with writing to convey discussion, not debate. So I hope I am conveying that I am displeased with the Wiki examples, and please with your post [Smile]

Also, I think herxing is a term used in reference to a cytokine storm or a cytokine cascade as well, which I think is why we see it a lot round here [Smile]

But I don't know much about the cytokine business. My bean can't keep track of all the initals and abbreviations... Haha.

Maybe Bart is just a nasty cytokine storm, but it is hell regardless.

Best wishes
Greta

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