GretaM
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 40917
posted
Yes, exactly, laxmom!
But then I wondered about the meninges.
I know those bartdrels are tiny but how do they survive without RBC?
Or does spinal fluid have RBC?
The above is me trying to figure this out haha
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged |
map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
Oh my, too technical for me. But I will await the answers.
I've got dirty rotten bartdrels on the brain too or his cousin lymesucks.
They find a way to survive, that's for sure.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
Razzle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 30398
posted
There are blood vessels in the brain. That's how the brain gets nutrients to function.
I was under the impression that bart lived outside the blood cells, but would stick to the blood cells to suck nutrients from them???
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
BoxerMom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25251
posted
Bartonella henselae has a preference for endothelial cells, cells that line blood vessels. It can also enter RBCs.
Babesia is exclusively a RBC dweller, except when it is replicating, though it enters the RBCs very quickly during this phase.
Both secrete substances that allow them to aggregate and adhere to blood vessel walls, restricting blood flow. They also release endotoxins that induce cytokine pathways, creating massive inflammation.
Yes, the brain is highly vascular. It also contains cerebrospinal fluid and lymphatic fluid.
Neuro symptoms are caused by restricted blood flow (also thick blood), inflammation in the various types of brain cells, endotoxins, and the by-products of microbial metabolism (ammonia, etc.). Also poor detox and drainage. Interesting new research on sleep and brain detox!
Also nutrient deficiencies in chronic cases.
If they can't find one way to debilitate us, they'll find another! Very complex disease mechanisms in chronic infections.
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Bartonella is diverse in its action and can infect many types of cells, including erythrocytes (red blood cells), endothelial (vascular lining cells), and various macrophage-type cells (including brain dendrites).
It is found both inside and outside of cells.
Some ways Bartonella causes symptoms/damage is by:
-Neural toxins -Direct injury to cells within the CNS -Triggering aberrant autoimmune or immune mediated responses
Posts: 1887 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am with boxermom on this one. I do not think bartonella actually invades the brain in most patients.
I think the primary method by which it causes neuro symptoms is by sticking to the blood vessels and restricting bloodflow to the brain as well as elsewhere in the body.
For example, a lot of the damage from strokes is caused by restricting bloodflow -- not from actual destruction of cells -- so it is easy to see how insufficient oxyegen can cause major neuro symptoms. This is why hyperbaric is a good adjunct treatment for stroke victims and also tickborne patients.
This is also why I believe systemic enzymes such as lumbrokinase in high enough doses is also a vital part of tickborne treatments.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
lax mom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38743
posted
Yes, bea, that explains my problems exactly!...it feels like my brain isn't getting enough blood/oxygen flow.
GretaM
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 40917
posted
Awesome awesome awesome!
Thank you for sorting this out for me you guys!
You're the best!
And thanks for explaining it in a way I can understand and visualize!
Bea-what is a high enough dose of lumbrokinase? I just started last week. Boluoke. From Canada RNA. But I want to be sure to be taking enough to make a difference.
The bottle says 1-3 capsules, 1-3 times per day.
And I am pudgier, so have more miles of blood vessels than the average Betty Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged |
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Here is what a prominent LLMD that I used to see said about bartonella (and other infections). They cause "small vessel disease" -- the brain is full of small vessels.
Also: he did say that brain symptoms did NOT necessarily mean a brain infection, that the infections can be downstream but still cause brain symptoms. He said that the brain/CNS is NOT it's preference of territory.
"These infections are primarily resident with the vascular system and thus, affect vascular hemodynamics at many levels."
"Disconnection with cognitive impairment" and the rest describes me to a tee.
Small Vessel Disease nerves are most sensitive ‘trip wires’ white matter areas of brain are watershed areas: no collateral flow, metabolically very active disconnection’ syndrome with cognitive impairment executive dysfunction, reduced bandwidth, delayed psychomotor processing, and reduced working memory are common features
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
surprise
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 34987
posted
Gross, and you're all freaking me out.
Best not to think about it Greta.
Too much of a head trip, all this brain vessel blood stuff.
I figure at this point, (after Bart treatment w/ antibiotics and herbs) that doing my best to keep inflammation down and circulation going is the best I can do,
so non-inflammatory diet (GF, dairy free, as low sugar as I can possibly live with by my fingernails oh sugar free is hard)
Curcumin, coconut oil, exercise. That's all I'm left with at this point, let the chips fall where they may.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
thanks everyone, you explained it nicely. Small vessel inflammation explains why my brain feels like it is swollen and trying to come thru my scalp.
I've always called this a bartonella sx because it was with the other bart type sx. This head pain feels different than lyme headache and it feels different than the babesia headache.
I too do not want to know if there is white matter or lesions or whatever. It would only add stress.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Another note -- I had forgotten exactly why hubby took 500 mg l-arginine 3 times daily on an empty stomach while treating bartonella. I knew it was supposed to help, but had forgotten why.
If I understand the link below correctly then the l-arginine can actually help reduce the inflammation caused by bartonella.
But a word of caution -- you can't take l-arginine if you have active herpes viruses.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- And . . . anytime the liver &/or kidney function is distressed, overwhelmed, not working well enough or in any way compromised, the brain will suffer, too.
So will the inner ear system (cause havoc if the liver / kidneys are stressed). And the ear system can mess up brain function as well, in different ways. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
GretaM
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 40917
posted
Thanks Bea and Keebler.
Pam-I completely concur...the bart headache is different from the lyme headache.
I feel like my brain is spray foam. And bart headache feels like too much was sprayed in my skull-now it's trying to expand. (Good thing the evil lyme gnome and his razor sharp claws have a good grip-keeps my skull in a vice grip.)
Surprise-yes it was easier to visualize red blood cells. Haha. Bart really is a dirty rotten bleepbleep.
Thanks Bea about l'arginine and three times vs twice for boluoke. I will try that to see if it helps.
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[dizzy]](graemlins/dizzy.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic