canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
Which do you prefer and why?
I really struggle with anti-microbial tinctures whereas I do well with powdered/capsule anti-microbial herbs.
In my experience the tincture formulas drive deeper into the body and more often than not these anti-microbials are just stirring things up in the CNS (which for me equals a whole lot of flaring/herxing but with no improvement)
Powdered herbs seem to have the majority of their effectiveness take place in the gut (for obvious reasons). But I generally don't get awful effects from powder and can usually take more whereas the tinctures I can only take 1 drop in 16 ounces of water.
Wtf is that? Are all these anti-microbials really doing anything other than agitating the bacteria? Abxs have better killing power and also force the bacteria to run and hide (which means our symptoms diminish).
I prefer the latter over a lifetime of flares/herxes.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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droid1226
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 34930
posted
Tinctures. They bypass a messed up gut, which most of us have. So until candida, parasites, and all othe gut issues are healed, powders will not be absorbed well.
That's why there's so much success w fermented vegetables. Gut heals, body accepts everything better. Until then, tinctures behind the lower teeth right onto those two veins. With a dry, warm mouth. This is specifically so it doesn't go into the gut.
Of course powders are better if you are using them for gut health.
I prefer Buhner style tinctures and have made my own.
What tinctures have you taken that such a low dose has such a massive CNS effect on you?
Either they're stirring up bugs or just aggravating CNS. Some essential oils are also absorbed better than most powder herbs. But you seem extra sensitive, probably Bart I assume.
If it's just aggravating CNS which it seems to be, there's plenty of others that would have the opposite effect.
The powder just may be better on you cause they're passing through a bad gut, unabsorbed.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- To be clear when you weigh the benefits or disadvantages of various forms, not all "powder" herbs are the same. There can be the powdered "raw" or "crude" herb -- or a powdered "extract".
Then, additives, even if slight and added only to prevent clumping, need to be considered so you know what you are getting and how to compare and contrast the forms.
Herbs come in many different forms. The most common are crude herbs, powders, dried decoctions, tinctures, capsules, gelcaps, salves, oils and teas. ------------
• CRUDE HERBS are simply collected and dried, then cut and sifted. This is the original way herbs have been prepared since the dawn of time.
This form is commonly found in traditional herb shops around the world, and in ethnic neighborhoods in major cities in the United States.
The advantage of this form is that you can actually see, taste and smell the herbs. Crude herbs are usually taken home and cooked into teas.
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• POWDERS are simply ground crude herbs. You can use powders to make herbal tea, or simply ingest them in their natural form. I like powders because they allow you to experience the taste and smell of the herbs you are using.
Another benefit of this form is that you can often take larger doses of the herbs. However, powdered herbs do not last as long in storage as the other forms.
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• TEAS are aqueous extractions of crude herbs or herbal powders. Most herbs today come in pills or tinctures, so to make sure we do not forget our herbal roots, I always make sure to keep some loose herb teas in the house.
There are several methods of preparation for herbal tea. Infusion, better for delicate leaves and flowers, entails bringing water to a light boil, turning off the heat, and letting the herbs steep in the water.
Leaving the crude herbs out in the sun for a couple of hours in a tightly sealed container makes Sun tea. Simmering the herbs for anywhere from ten minutes up to an hour (longer is better for the much heavier barks and roots) makes a decoction.
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• TINCTURES are extracts made by soaking herbs in solutions designed to draw out their virtues. Alcohol is the most common soaking solution for tinctures. Tincture manufacturers must have recipe books to guide them, as the exact method will differ for each herb.
Tinctures are valuable because they are easy to digest and absorb. Some herbs can only be used in this form. The strength of a tincture should be listed on the bottle in the form of a ratio, such as 1:5 or 1:2.
The first number tells you how much of the herb is present, and the second number tells you how much menstruum (the liquid used to dissolve the herb) is in the preparation. Therefore, a 1:5 tincture is weaker than a 1:2 tincture, because a larger volume of liquid is used.
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• DRIED DECOCTIONS, also called CONCENTRATED GRANULES, are used primarily by Chinese (TCM) herbalists. This method of preparing herbs was devised several decades ago in Taiwan by a group of chemists and traditional doctors.
Basically, the herbs are cooked as teas in large vats and the solid residues are removed, after which the remaining liquids are dried out until only powders remain. Sometimes certain important components (such as volatile oils) are collected separately by specialized equipment and then added back to the final product.
These powders are usually about four times more potent than the crude herbs. The label may list a ratio of 4:1, but concentration can be as low as 2:1 or even as high as 10:1.
Dried decoctions still retain the herbs' basic tastes and smells, and the concentrations of chemicals discourage bacterial growth so they tend to store well. I use these granules frequently in my practice.
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• CONCENTRATED HERBAL EXTRACTS are now made using various methods. These extracts, in liquid or solid form, can be anywhere from two to 100 times more concentrated in certain components than crude herbs.
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• CAPSULES are simply powdered herbs, dried decoctions or concentrated herbal extracts that have been put into gelatin capsules.
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• TABLETS are simply powdered herbs, dried decoctions or concentrated herbal extracts with a binding substance added. They are then are pressed into tablets by a machine
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• GELCAPS are sealed gelatin capsules that hold either tinctures or concentrated liquid herbal extracts. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- You say: "Powdered herbs seem to have the majority of their effectiveness take place in the gut" (end quote)
That is not true for all herbs. I can think of several that are just excellent as a powdered extract, they do not stay in the just the gut.
It can depend on many factors. It is also possible to take both a powdered extract with a tincture. Piperine will also help much with getting the herb "distributed".
A LL ND would be the best to consult (or read from various LL ND authors' works) as the specific herbs and the best form for each you consider.
[ 02-22-2014, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- If you have trouble with tinctures, it could be the alcohol - the type of it. Some tinctures are made with organic alcohol and that might make a difference.
Glycerine extracts are available, too, with the same considerations as to the the source of the glycerine.
You can take tinctures only for those that work best that way and then powdered EXTRACTS for others that do just fine that way.
I met with one LLMD who is also a doctor of Chinese Medicine who thinks that his patients should avoid tinctures do to the high alcohol content when so many are required for concentrated protocols.
He says that alcohol is just too hard on the liver when taking so many tinctures. But even one drop (once detected from mouth to brain) of alcohol can also trigger various reactions, as a cascade, in various people. You might just be one of those.
There is really no way to make that disappear but there are ways to lessen it. Warm water, swirl to the air in a shallow mug . . .
For strictly root extracts, hot water can be used.
Any above ground parts (aerial parts) and hot water can destroy some of the properties so warm water should be used. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- It seems reasonable to consider that whatever method(s) chosen, feeling good (or even much better) during treatment in not really going to happen - or not as much as we'd wish. There are just so many processes going on.
Still, it can be hard to judge when to roll with a rocky ride on one course and when to find a different river, path through the woods or catch a helicopter ride to the next juncture.
But no method of "travel" is going to be easy, it seems. So we face the main question: what's going to work best - and what will be best tolerated to that end - with MY body, MY unique set of circumstance?
The answers can change along the way.
For those who have difficulties of any kind with either Rx, herbal, or combination approaches - rife might be considered:
[ 02-22-2014, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Going back to your last questions:
"Are all these anti-microbials really doing anything other than agitating the bacteria?
Abxs have better killing power and also force the bacteria to run and hide (which means our symptoms diminish)." (end quote)
To clarify, starting with your last assumption that "also force the bacteria to run and hide" -- well, that is not true IF a proper combination formula is used. It's the combination of various Rx, not just antibiotics. It's the rotation. And it's the support that goes with that.
IMO, Rx most definitely have a proper place at the table. The course needs to be strong enough, long enough and all aspects well considered by an ILADS educated LLMD or LL ND who knows as much science about lyme / TBD as their is to know at this time.
Many who have had the most aggressive (WITH support) Rx treatments have done very well. So please do consider that if you have the option of working with a excellent LLMD / LL ND.
But not everyone has that option nor can everyone tolerate Rx treatment. But don't dismiss it right off the start due to some assumption.
Back to your first concern "Are all these anti-microbials really doing anything other than agitating the bacteria?"
I assume you are talking about herbals?
Also assuming that you equate feeling poorly to the "agitating of bacteria" and that may not be what's going on at all, or just part of it.
Yes, herbals have some wonderful properties . . . herbals can work . . . herbals can fail. The key is finding the best doctor we can who know as much as possible about all this. It's a very intricate skill base.
It's really hard to work as hard as you do trying to find what will work. I am not sure the knowledge we need can all be gained with web study, articles and even all the books we can gather. It's just such a complex matter and so much does not make it into the materials that we can access.
I wish you had a better doctor (not sure you even have one at all?) as it seems you are on your own figuring this out and I know what a rough place that can be.
But, for as much as I say no treatment path is going to have us feeling good, really, and no treatment path is a guarantee . . . if you are not finding signs that what you are doing is even able to work WITH your body, that is important detail.
I just wish you had a doctor who could really work with you on how to steer in such turbulent waters.
Cheers. -
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