posted
hi folks, used to be comunsens on this site back in 2002 and many useful helpful lifesaving discussions were had...
I tried to do a search for smoking cessation in these pages; perhaps i'm not looking in the right spaces, but what I really need to know is what exactly is happening in the body, on a bio-level, when quitting smoking in relation to Lyme...
i mean, the incredible joint pain...does smoking cover the real joint pain symptoms of Lyme (demyelination, nerve end damage), and when we quit, is this pain what i'm going to be living with as a non-smoker? or is it extra toxins,
besides the ones we live with as part of sharing bodies with Bb, being dumped into the lymphatic systems that are creating this pain?or both? or something else?
does anybody remember coming across a post here with a scientific perspective of this?
i've been about 12 days, radically cutting down my smoking, from 15 a day (for over 20 years)to none, or one.
that one cigarette, as soon as i take a puff, two puffs, that is all it takes for this incredible pain to subside. i'm dealing with the pain, but sometimes i have to leave the house.
i'm really committed to quitting totally, and i feel that if i knew more of what was actually going on in my cells then i would pepper my self pep talks with more knowledge. knowledge is power.
from the rainy west coast...(hey, is tincup still around?)(dan Q)
.................................................
Hi - breaking up your post for easier reading for many here -
[ 03-18-2014, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]
Posts: 2 | From Gabriola Island, Canada | Registered: Mar 2014
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posted
Don't know the scientific answers to your Qs, but I think it's a good idea to give up smoking, as it harms the body and we don't need more problems!
Lymedin2010
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 34322
posted
I have discussed smoking & alcohol with another individual who has dedicated his life to Lyme. That is all this person does, is talk to Lyme people day in & day out.
Out of the blue I mentioned to him that I don't get it. My mother smokes, has espressos daily, & drinks heavily from time to time. She has been bitten 3 times & only years later has knee inflammation.
My father is similar, but does not drink espressos. He was bit once as a kid & lived in tick land for years. I would be shocked if he had not been bitten again.
Why am I and another person I know, who never smoke & rarely drink, why are we the sickest?
To my surprise he said that is exactly what I am hearing from others. Others have reported the same thing & the people who smoke or drink don't get as sick.
I think it just keeps the organisms from growing in various tissues. It does not eliminate them, just keeps them from doing their business in certain areas.
Yes, I would imagine these habits would be more difficult in the severely chronic stage. I think engaging in these habits prevents or stymies the spread of the disease.
This is what I see & what others have seen as well. I am sure there will be exceptions as well.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
There are 200 heavy metals and carcinogens in tobacco. When my daughter was smoking she developed fibromyalgia because she had a mild allergy to nickel. The smoking made it much worse and irritated her nerves. She quit smoking and got over the fibro but she still cannot tolerate nickel next to her skin.
Smoking also causes you to need twice as much insulin leading to insulin resistance. It depletes folate and B12 - it is the reason you see women with snake mouths. Your upper lip becomes smaller and you develop sucking wrinkles at a young age. Generally it causes very rapid aging not to mention cancer.
The heavy metals stay in your body for years. If you have methyl cyle mutations you might not every get rid of them without heavy chelation. The pathogens use the heavy metals. You can't get well until you get rid of them.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
I can tell you about my experience. I am a smoker, I was a smoker way before lyme. Not long ago I decided quitting smoking would be a great way to get me feeling better.
I was wrong. I was on nicorette gum for about a week and my symptoms were through the roof, all over body pain, crazy emotions, sincerely felt I was losing my mind. I finally broke down and smoked a cigarette and all that stuff went away very quickly.
I am not at all advocating smoking, we all know smoking is very bad. I wish i had never lit one.
I wish there were more information about lyme and smoking. I feel there was more to what happened to me than nicotine withdrawal.
Either smoking keeps some infection at bay or maybe I am so toxic from smoking that my body cannot handle releasing all those years of toxins at once. All I know is the whole quitting plan is being revised. I cannot go through that again. Thinking of tapering or switching to natural cigs and then tapering.
I hope someone else can offer some more info. i would love to hear that someone has some helpful info. on how to quit without losing your mind or feeling like you are dying. lyme is hard enough!
Posts: 85 | From somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Jan 2012
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Lymedin2010
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 34322
posted
I am not advocating smoking either & that is why I never smoked. I thought I would learn & do better than what I had seen from my parents.
I would be willing to bet that it is the toxins in cigarettes & smoke that keep bacteria at bay. No proof & it is only based on a subjective gathering of others reporting.
My sister started smoking heavily post recovering from Lyme & a year ago stopped. A few weeks ago she started getting sick & a bit worried Lyme might be coming back. She was bit again this past summer though & it really could have been any infection hitting her.
That lady that I spoke about in another thread of mine, that had 40+ Lyme symptoms. Her brother is a heavy drinker & smoker and he got bit. He only has joint pain.
I would love to hear from others on the subject. There must be something that perhaps keep spirochetes in cyst mode, some explanation. I wish there were more studies too.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
I am a former smoker and not an advocate. However, I quit smoking when I first got sick and my then-intermittent symptoms went through the roof for almost a year.
My LD told me that nicotine (or one of the other millions of ingredients) supresses the replication ability of the lyme bacteria.
I also have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis. I was told that there is a supression of the production of antibodies when you smoke.
Not sure I have the science quite right, and I know the benefits far outweigh the down side. But I had a definite flare of many things when I quit.
Posts: 520 | From Maryland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Lymedin2010
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 34322
posted
Thanks for the personal info.
I used to look at my parents & think they were crazy for doing what they did. Looking back I wish that I had done the same & maybe I would not be in the same predicament today.
Trying to smoke or drink now is more riskier now that the infection has spread.
Kent Singleton on alcohol/smoking:
"Another problem for the immune system is cigarette smoking. Smoking depletes the body of vitamin C. When cigarettes and alcohol are used together, the result is depletion in the body of both vitamin C and glutathione. This combination results in a severe compromise of two of the body’s most critical antioxidants. This will often severely impair the NK cell function, which greatly reduces the immune system’s ability to fight invaders."
In another thread: "When I was in Kansas at Dr. J's there were 2 patients that were smokers. One of them was seriously ill, one was not so ill. The not so ill (male husband) improved dramatically with his 2 weeks of treatment (he did not quit smoking, felt like you all, that it isn't good for you but... he figured they would work on quitting when they felt better). His wife struggled more.
It's like so much has been taken away from us it is so hard to take away the few things that are left (Don't you dare touch my chocolate)."
Same thread: "Dr. Amen says:
About smoking: There are so many reasons to stop smoking, you probably don't need another one. Yet in my experience, if you want to have full access to your brain, don't smoke .Smoking constricts blood flow to the brain depriving the brain of nutrients it needs. Nicotine constricts blood flow to the brain as well as the skin, which is why the brain and the skin prematurely ages. Shortly after you stop smoking blood flow to the brain increases.
About caffeine:The more caffeine you consume the more underactivity occurs in your brain. Many people use caffeine as a brain stimulant. They use it to get going and keep going thru the day. The problem with caffeine is that even though in the short run it may help, in the long run it makes things worse. The you begin chasing the underactivitiy caused by the caffeine with more caffeine, worsening an already tough brain condition. Periodic caffeine useage is not a probably not a problem, heavy usage (more than 3 cups a day) is a problem if you want to maintain a healthy brain.
You can go to Dr. Amens web site and see what brains look like on alcohol (sort of like my Lyme brain) and other drugs/stimulants. "
Yet, another post: "My mother lived like a saint throughout my childhood. Never drank a drop of alcohol, even at social gatherings, drank tea, not coffee, fruit for breakfast, etc. My father smoked Pall Malls for many, many years, drank heavily (beer, not the hard stuff, but lots of it). He had a union job and lunch for the most of the guys was 2-16 oz Budweisers. He worked in NYC and they put the beer in a paper bag for you. No driving was involved. They used to ride the LIRR home and play poker and drink beer in a smoke-filled car. I remember when they cut back to only 3 smoking cars, then 1 and now of course, there are no smoking cars.
My mother was always stressed and my father always had the attitude of dealing with things as they come and never got upset. Of course, how could my mother not be stressed out married to someone like that. She has hypertension and breast cancer-stage IV and my father, who is 70 only takes one lousy pill a day and I have no idea what it's for. Nothing serious. Oh and his diet?? His arteries should be clogged. German dude. But he's a little German dude. He's only 5'6". He eats smoked bacon, steaks, pork, potatoes. If he gets a sweet tooth, he'll eat the entire whatever it may be- pie or cake. He never sits still. He's always on the go. He loves to shop and starts a dozen projects at once. Sometimes he even finishes them. He still smokes!! But he switched to little cigars and because he believes he's smoking something he doesn't inhale, he thinks it's ok. He even swears he drank beer to clean his body of all the chemicals he worked with. That's why I said beer is my detox method. I was kidding, of course. But I do like beer. "
"Nicotine caused a dose-dependant growth inhibition of a broad spectrum of the test organisms, some of which are known pathogens"
So what are some of the bacteria tested? Mycobacterium phlei, Candida albicans, Cryptococcus neoformans, E. coli, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Listeria monocytogenes, Viridans streptococci, Staphylococcus aureus,
******** AND B. burgdorferi.********
"Staphylococcus aureus & B. burgdorferi were only slightly inhibited or were completely unaffected following exposure to nicotine."
So the hearsay makes sense then. Many of the reportings of individuals who smoke & drink have limited number of symptoms. Many of the ones I know of only report some & limited joint pain. Nicotine kills off many pathogens & leaves them with mostly Borrelia & joint pain. Not all are in this class, but what is reported overall can finally fit a scientific context.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
I think what we're forgetting here is that even if it did turn out that nicotine had some inhibitory effect on some bugs in a petri dish, when you smoke you are inhaling scores of poisons, which will impact almost every system of your body. You have to see the bigger picture.
Smoking does not just destroy your lungs over time, it hits the vessels, the heart the gastro-intestinal system - just about everything. You need an optimal body condition if you're going to fight this horrendous disease.
Everyone has met the person who drinks like fish, smokes like a chimney, drinks coffee all day and lives to a ripe old age. But the fact is - they are the EXCEPTION. It's simply a fact, with over 70 years of research to back it up.
So you see, even if you know a couple of tickbite victims who smoke and seem to be suffering much less than you, there could be a million explanations for this, none of which have anything to do with smoking. For a start everyone's immune system is different, different strains of Borrelia have different levels of virulence etc etc.
I know many many people who smoke heavily and have Lyme and are incredibly sick with Lyme.
Smoking does not alleviate Lyme - it just tanks your all-round health. I once worked on a ward where ever single patient had a below-knee amputation - and 100% of them were heavy smokers. Many were not particularly old either.
To those of you who believe that nicotine or some other component of cigarettes is relieving your pain or even calming you - I'd be very surprised if you can find any real evidence of this.
In the past I have browsed through the endless theories that claim to be the magic key to stopping smoking. Most don't work.
But one theory really stood out to me, and that is, the biggest barrier for most smokers to quitting is the BELIEF that it is calming them or somehow making them feel good or doing something beneficial for them.
Heroin makes people feel good. So does cocaine. (I'm not advocating them.) But no component of cigarette smoke actually works in that way.
When you feel calm, energised, or otherwise good after a cigarette, it's because you are relieving the anxiety, dullness or downright bad feeling caused by the nicotine WITHDRAWAL, which begins right after your last cigarette!
So if you have a feeling that your Lyme pain is somehow being relieved by the poisonous nicotine, it's far more likely that the withdrawal effects on your brain have caused you so much discomfort that it has made your Lyme pain feel worse.
Just as if you had an upsetting argument with your best friend, or your doctor said something insulting to you - you would probably experience your Lyme pain worse, because we all feel pain worse when under any form of stress.
Once you truly understand that cigarettes are NOT calming you, relieving pain, making you feel more alert etc - they are just relieving the tension and bad feelings THEY themselves cause you through the withdrawal - then you can quit. It's your belief that you NEED them or that you would function worse without them that keeps you hooked.
Sure you will feel the bad effects for a while in the acute withdrawal period. If you take patches you're just prolonging it.
If you keep reminding yourself that the withdrawal period when you quit is TEMPORARY and that you will end up with an all-round MUCH healthier body better able to fight this disease, and that above all, you don't NEED cigarettes, you will be motivated and able to quit.
To the person who said there must be something that causes the Borrelia to go into the cyst form - yes, there is. It's the threat from your immune system (as well as antibiotics and anything else that Borrelia perceives as "unfriendly" to it.)
Hope this helps - remember, you don't NEED cigarettes to function, just like you didn't before you ever began smoking.
OK, sermon over now. But please consider what I say, if you're a smoker. Anyone who's ever worked as a health professional will tell you the same - smoking just leads to millions of coffins and people spending their last years gasping for every single breath - often in middle age and sometimes even younger. Would you want to fight for every single breath you take, every day and night of your life, on top of your Lyme?
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
thanks for all the input, and yes, that was the study or paper that i came across on this site awhile ago and couldn't find it again. thank you. it just reminds me that there is so much we simply don't know about how Bb is working in the body. i am madly trying to convince myself that these symptoms are a result of de-toxing. i find that the joint pain, and not the anxiety, is the worst. and yes, two puffs of a cig. dampens the pain. but so does: a de-tox tea, that i've been drinking, that i get basically in my backyard. it's a tea made from the roots of a particular fern, Burdock root, and Oregon grape root. all this stuff grows like i said basically in my backyard. this tea relieves some of the symptoms of "nic-fitting", and because i've found this out, i've more or less decided that these symptoms are from not just de-toxing ME, but also i got Lyme when i was a 15 a day smoker. it's not just ME that's addicted, it's the Bb. and you know how stubborn they are. and not only is this stuff free, to get it, i have to go on a forest walk. poor me. hahaha. thanks for the info, and i'm going to continue doing research. (i can't take vit. C in pill form; it makes me sick. the flu or cold. immediately almost. weird.) cheers from sunny west coast...
Posts: 2 | From Gabriola Island, Canada | Registered: Mar 2014
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