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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Seem to be symptom free now, but exercise kills me

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Author Topic: Seem to be symptom free now, but exercise kills me
EWT1638
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It has taken over a year and half to get me almost entirely symptom free after my latest lapse out of remission (still fatigued). So I started to do some exercising, very moderate. Stretching, walking 1 mile on tread mill and a few LOW weight machines..about an hour total.

It totally wipes me out for the rest of day w/ headaches and then the next day I'm still really fatigued but able to do a few simple things.

What's going on?

--------------------
When you reach your "wits-end" remember this: "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give you. I do not give as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." John 14:27

Posts: 392 | From Loudoun County Virginia | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
springshowers
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This article might help.

https://www.masscfids.org/resource-library/13-basic-information/302-mitochondrial-dysfunction-post-exertional-malaise-and-cfsme

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Marnie
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B6 as P5P/PLP...possibly may help.

"Exercise may make a B6 deficient person worse: It is suggested that a reduction in antioxidative status caused by a vitamin B6 deficiency may be aggravated under exercise-induced oxidative stress."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2808720/

Catalase with SOD is also available as a supplement.

B6 (active form is called P5P/PLP) is used with an enzyme called CBS to make taurine (lowers cholesterol) + GSH (= glutathione!) + sulfate. That is one of the ways we lower homocysteine.

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EWT1638
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My brain isn't quite up to understanding this article yet.

I take meds for both T3 & T4 Hypothyroidism and for MTHR mutation (Deplin and large doses of B12) 1200mg Magnesium, Vit D2 1.25mg.

--------------------
When you reach your "wits-end" remember this: "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give you. I do not give as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." John 14:27

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lpkayak
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I know a lot of ppl complaining of low stamina now. Me too.

When energy is low often coq10 will make you feel better

Some say 400mg a day

Im good with 200 if its ubiqinol by dr m

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Razzle
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Adrenal fatigue may be responsible...if this is the case, exercise will make it worse...

Also, if no adrenal fatigue, then being deconditioned may require a more conservative approach:

Start with less exercise (shorten the duration, decrease number of repetitions on weights, etc.) and slowly build up to 1 hour.

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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sixgoofykids
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In my experience it seemed that exercise disturbed deeper bacteria. Lyme corkscrews itself into the muscle tissue or other soft tissue. When we workout, we disturb that deeper bacteria out of hiding and the body has a response in order to deal with it.

I went through a 600 hour Pilates teacher training after Lyme. I found that as I went through beginner to advanced, at EACH LEVEL I disturbed more bacteria. I'd get used to a level, then when I moved on, I'd have the same fatigue again.

I just simply honored what my body was doing and over time I just kept getting healthier and healthier. I feel the Pilates training was an essential part to keeping me from relapsing and getting me as strong as I am today.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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Lymetoo
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Why not stick to mostly weights since that is what Dr Burrascano said to do while in Lyme treatment?

Work your way up to more. Try walking only 10 min a day, then work your way up, as Sixgoofy says.

GO EASY!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Marnie
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Six...GREAT - I admire your drive!!!

Yes...CoQ10 is great and MUST be taken if on cholesterol lowering drugs/beta blockers which deplete it.

Unfortunately CoQ10 ain't cheap!

It should be consumed with something "fatty" for best absorption:

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ART03367/Coenzyme-Q10-CoQ10.html

Inflammation does a number on the thyroid.

Here is the TNFa (proinflammatory cytokine) and "autoimmune" thyroid connection:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19250279

Another situation could be at play...

Arteriosclerosis/"hardening of the arteries" which makes them too inflexible and too narrow and interferes with their ability to carry nutrients (oxygen and glucose et al) to the cells.

Visualize a clogged pipe with the inner walls of the pipe coated with junk.

The endothelial cells line blood vessels. They do appear to be impacted. Think of them as the inner lining of a clean "pipe".

Arteriosclerosis is REVERSIBLE...slowly, but still is REVERSIBLE.

The following link also mentions *restoring SOD levels* (an antioxidant). It is an "easy read":

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008/oct2008_Natural-Methods-for-Reversing-Atherosclerosis_01.htm

Here is one link to buying SOD:

http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-S-O-D-180-Tablets/dp/B0014GWDJ0/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t

Although other significantly more costly SOD - may be a tad more effective i.e., "coated" to prevent strong stomach acids from ruining the effectiveness are available.

The article also mentions nitric oxide...

Upregulating eNOS maybe beneficial. Which just happens to be another benefit of berberine.

Endothelial NOS (eNOS), also known as nitric oxide synthase 3 (NOS3). Endothelial NOS is a nitric oxide synthase that generates NO in blood vessels. Like with all else there can be genetic (protein) differences that impact eNOS levels.

Why that choice of vitamin D (D2) and not D3/K2...which is available as one i.e., D3 with K2?

K2 is very unique and does not work like the "normal" K which is associated with blood clotting. It functions differently.

"However, studies indicate that ***ergocalciferol (vitamin D2)*** is much less potent and has a shorter duration of action than cholecalciferol...

Based on this author’s experience, and verified by others,[11] it is often difficult to raise 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels with ergocalciferol in patients with severe vitamin D deficiency.

Health professionals should encourage use of cholecalciferol over ergocalciferol in all patients

without severe renal failure,

either as a general supplement or as a treatment for vitamin D deficiency."

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/746941

Just read the title here:

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7614604_Vitamin_K2_ameliorates_experimental_autoimmune_encephalomyelitis_in_Lewis_rats


Have your kidneys taken a "hit"?

Or...are the arteries supplying nutrients to the kidneys impacted and thus hindering their efficiency?

"Over 90% of renal artery stenoses are caused by arteriosclerosis"

You mentioned Deplin (B9-folic acid useful form) and B12...

To get homocysteine down...TWO pathways are supposed to be working and these pathways need these nutrients:

B9 (folic acid - or in your case Deplin (Rx) or Folo Pro (OTC) + B12...sublingual is best

+ zinc for the "remethylation" pathway.

and for the "transsulfuration" pathway:

+ B6 (as P5P/PLP ideally)

Which works with an enzyme called CBS -> taurine (lowers cholesterol) + GSH = glutathione! + sulfate.

Too friggin much inflammation!

Ginger, yes, good old ginger, inhibits an enzyme called PDE4 and

inhibits inflammation.

You can get various doses from 125mg on up. Too much may make you sleepy for a few hours.

So low doses (Nature's Answer - Ginger 125mg) with 50 mg of Now (brand) P5P may help a LOT.

Inhibiting PDE4 via ginger (thus reducing inflammation)

prevents cAMP catabolism (breakdown).

Cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) is a secondary messenger that may improve

certain aspects of memory if increased. Wiki.

In the *absence of PDE4 inhibition* (me - too much inflammation), NMDA (glutamate receptors = NMDAR) did not increase cAMP concentrations in primary cultures of rat

cerebral cortical neurons.

However, when PDE4 was inhibited with rolipram (me - ginger too), NMDA markedly elevated cAMP (second messenger that improves aspects of memory).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10882846

And to raise serotonin levels ***while simultaneously inhibiting PDE4 (lowering inflammation)*** ...there is:

Mesembrine.

Or...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19256502

which appears superior to fluoxetine i.e., Prozac.

Basically this is what they are doing:

A new class of multi-target compounds was synthesized by

linking a novel selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI)a to a PDE4 inhibitor.

This is sorta funny:

Phosphodiesterase 4 *inhibitors* enhance sexual

pleasure-seeking

activity in rodents.

That is dopamine! Persons with Parkinson's given L-Dopa were found to develop gambling addictions i.e., pleasure ***seeking***

Addicted to the internet/texting?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-wise/201209/why-were-all-addicted-texts-twitter-and-google

Whoa...I thought I only had a glutamate (brain accelerator)- seeking problem!

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TF
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I think what you are describing is normal for a lyme patient. That's why Burrascano says to NEVER exercise 2 days in a row. You need at least 1 day to recover from exercise.

See these quotes from Burrascano:

LYME DISEASE REHABILITATION

Despite antibiotic treatments, patients will NOT return to normal unless they exercise, so therefore an aggressive rehab program is absolutely necessary. It is a fact that a properly executed exercise program can actually go beyond the antibiotics in helping to clear the symptoms and to maintain a remission."

"The goal is to exercise intermittently, with exercise days separated by days of total rest, including an effort to have plenty of quality sleep. The trick is to time the exercise days to take advantage of these rebounds. For an example, begin with an exercise day followed by 3 to 5 rest days; as stamina improves, then fewer rest days will be needed in between workouts. However, because T-cell functions do fall for at least one day after aggressive exercises, be sure to never exercise two days in a row. Finally, an in intermittent exercise program, properly executed, may help to reset the HPA axis more towards normal. On the following page is an exercise prescription that details these recommendations."

[both quotes from page 31)

"Conditioning: work to improve strength and reverse the poor conditioning that results from Lyme, through a whole-body exercise program, consisting of light calisthenics and/or resistance training, using light resistance and many repetitions. This can be accomplished in exercise classes called "stretch and tone", or "body sculpture", or can be achieved in the gym with exercise machines or carefully with free weights (see cautions above).

3. Each session should last one hour. A gentle hour is preferable to a strenuous half-hour. If the patient is unable to continue for the whole hour, then decrease the intensity to allow him/her to do so.

4. Exercise no more often than every other day. The patient may need to start by exercising every 4th or 5th day initially, and as abilities improve, work out more often, but NEVER two days in a row. The nonexercise days should be spent resting.

5. This whole-body conditioning program is what is required to achieve wellness. A simple walking program will not work, and simply placing the patient on a treadmill or an exercise bike is not acceptable (except very briefly, as part of a warm-up), as aerobics can be damaging and must be avoided."

(page 32)

http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

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GretaM
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My doc says that deconditioning/losing muscle is one of the main reasons why healing from lyme and co takes so long.

My LL reccomends starting with rebuilding muscle, and stretching to start and to go very slow.

Never never workout to a place of being unpleasantly tired.

My LL told me the day after I exercise if I feel sore that I overdid it.

If the second day after I exercised, if I feel tired still then to skip the workout and do less the next time.

I used to play competitive sports 3-5 days a week, so it is difficult for me to see how much muscle and stamina I have lost.

Depressing, I mean. Somedays I can't even go up a flight of stairs without taking a break.

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Marnie
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Get a Tai Chi DVD...

Tai Chi is especially beneficial to those with limited flexibility, who experience pain when they move or who feel they cannot exercise.

Tai Chi is adaptable and safe for all ages and stages of health.

Usually practiced while standing, Tai Chi can be adapted to be done while lying down or seated.

It can be practiced when you are feeling well or when you are sick because, unlike aerobic exercise,

Tai Chi is about the flow of energy and inner balance.

It has been practiced for thousands of years.

Like...

http://www.amazon.com/Scott-Cole-Discover-Mobility-Exercise/dp/B0046ZE3OE/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top


Read the reviews.

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sixgoofykids
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quote:
Originally posted by Marnie:
Six...GREAT - I admire your drive!!!

Thanks! I was determined to not only get well, but be HEALTHY!

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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D Bergy
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Mycoplasma makes it impossible for me to do any amount of physical work. It simply steals energy at a cellular level causing exhaustion doing things that normally would not be a problem.

I don't have Lyme disease, so it is pretty easy for me to tell what causes it. Mine is caused mostly from mycoplasma pneumonia, but there could be myco fermentans involved also.

Dan

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GretaM
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Dan-I am so glad you posted about myco.

I have it also.

Sometimes, when I put the wash from the washer into the dryer, I get horribly out of breath and need to lay down right there on the floor.

I never equated that kind of exhaustion until you mentioned cellular exhaustion-great description, Dan!

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Rivendell
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I'm struggling with this too.

These are all good answers

--------------------
Herbal Treatments for Lyme and Co-Infections:
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com
http://www.tiredoflyme.com/the-cowden-protocol-for-lyme-disease.html http://www.sinomedresearch.org http://www.lymenet.org/SupportGroups/

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nefferdun
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Don't push yourself too hard. My exercise is walking up two flights of stairs or taking the dogs out for a walk. I had to stop half way up one flight of stairs two years ago. I could hardly walk 100 feet without needing to rest. Now I can walk a mile and I was doing it twice a day last summer.

BUT I don't think I am into an exercise program. I have a weight lifting machine in the attic, completely covered in dust. Am I lazy or old or just sick?

I used to ride a lot but the bartonella did a number on me. I got horrible anxiety and i am still trying to recover from it. Very depressing.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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EWT1638
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Thanks for all your input. I think I'm actually a little more confused though now, than before. Haha.

I didn't start exercising every day, I was just starting out...every other day. Last night was the first time I've had any episodes in more than 6 weeks (worse than the last one), it seemed to come along with my cycle (peri-menapausal). Today I'm just very fatigued and sleepy.

I'll wait and see how I'm feeling tomorrow and perhaps just do some stretching and low weights. My LLMD really had wanted me to start exercising more.

I take all kinds of herbals, since she pulled me off abx several months ago. Mostly for detox, some Lyme management and a nasal spray for biofilm. Lots of pro-biotics of course, digestive system still doesn't work right. I use oral Nystantin rinse and pulse dose the yeast Rx.

I'll ask about Adrenal fatigue when I see my doc in May.

--------------------
When you reach your "wits-end" remember this: "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give you. I do not give as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." John 14:27

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