posted
I have now read over 100 articles on "diet and Lyme disease". Not surprising that so many completely disagree with each other. But they completely disagree in some cases!
EVERY article is each 100% CERTAIN they are absolute BEST or WORST to eat as a diet if you have Lyme disease. WHO is correct?
If you have a "Lyme diet", what works for you? THAT means more to me than articles written by people with a "nutrition degrees".
Please no guesses or "I heard" comments but I would like first hand "this works for me" advice on the best Lyme diet. Depending on the article these are either GREAT or AWFUL - which is it? Perhaps diet does not matter?
Vegan vegetarian high protein low protein
high gluten no gluten milk no milk based products fruits no fruits
vegetables no vegetables juices (vitamin C acidic) no juices
meat no meat high pH water fluoride water no fluoride water
various additives, herbs etc.
What else is there! Articles I've read have either championed or pillared EVERY food or drink I can think of! What do YOU find works best for you if you do have a special Lyme diet?
It seems like starvation is the only diet everyone agrees on!
Thanks much.
Gary in Kansas (yes, dog is Toto)
Posts: 133 | From Shawnee, KS | Registered: Sep 2007
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Keebler
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- Which one?
None. There is no one diet for any group of those who are well or ill.
Starvation, deprivation? Never. Food should be enjoyed, celebrated, savored, delighted in . . . but so many have this temper tantrum approach and storm off all miffed. I was dazed when I had to give up gluten (celiac finally discovered after so many failed tests the genetic test was very clear about it).
Then I had to learn to cook, really cook for myself. I had thought I had been cooking before but I was just warming up processed foods.
While I say none of those diets on the list is the right answer,
I have found some important stipulations, guidelines and lines that I won't cross, however and it is mostly about the source and preparation.
Wonder why you ask though. I'm guessing that your post is just one of frustration, not really wondering if someone has THE one book or list that will work for every single person who has lyme (as that just does not exist).
It can be very frustrating and, over the years, many of us have "done" that one, or the other, or a combination and then, well, **** that's sure not working for "MY" body sort of declaration.
Some need meat. Some can do solely with just plant diet. I sure was not one of those but tried hard in the 80's. I need meat and fish. But I need it from only good sources, not factory frankenmeat or fish raised in pollution cramped fish bowls set into a body of water.
Even eggs. Fabulous food. Good for us. But not from factory hens.
We got away from eating our vegetables and fruits, as a society. Corporations have brainwashed us into thinking that food comes from their test kitchens with long lists of enhancing agents.
You probably get my drift. Were there to be one popular "diet" guideline, it's likely the South Beach diet that is mostly about smart food choices, as straight from the source and from as close to the earth / water / grazing pastures as possible. Mediterranean, in spirit (minus the wheat and wine).
Although, gluten certainly seems something that most with lyme have major troubles with and do so much better without. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- You might enjoy CHRISTINA COOKS. Although she does incorporate gluten a lot, that's easily avoided. She is enthusiast and committed to delicious eating as a cornerstone of our daily enjoyment.
She has a website, videos, etc. She turned her health around with food and delights in sharing how that can be done. Oh, she's vegan, too, but I still just add my own fish or meat. The dishes she prepares have the basic veggies, fruits, FLAVOR with garden herbs and spices.
So much is about those garden herbs & spices.
We all need protein, carbs & fats. She is a delight in showing us fabulous ways to enjoy the combinations. And easy to adapt to individual needs. -
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Keebler
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- To help sort though, it might be good to start here:
Excitotoxins; MSG; Aspartame; & "Natural" Flavors (that are not likely natural at all);
GMO foods that destroy the GI Tract; Gluten
Focus is mostly about how we can prevent inflammation & over stimulation from things in these categories. But this is not a diet. Rather, the basics of good food selection, shifting to foods that taste delicious without chemistry. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- Regarding your inquiry about beverages, lots of room to roam with tea. And then there is also Hibiscus Tea . . .
Lemonade, Limeade (organic fruit with just touch of stevia in chilled water with a spring of fresh mint.)
GREEN TEA - Links Set -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Kudzuslipper
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Hi Gary. sadly, this is what it is for more than lyme... so many diets... so much food... so much marketing.
what works for me is common sense. lower grain carbs (used to try none) protein, lots of veggies, a little fruit. good fats. I do eat dairy and I also enjoy wine.
what are you trying to accomplish with your diet?
across the board people seem to agree that sugar feeds the critters and also yeast--so good to stay away from processed foods and if your bothered, even stay away from natural sugars (like fruit)
across the board, people say avoid alcohol.
across the board people say avoid processed food.
If you're not a vegan now, I wouldn't suggest it. Or if you are, I wouldn't suggest becoming a carnivore...
I would say take what you're eating now, and tweak it to be the best it can be... whole foods, organic foods..
you can experiment to see if going grain free/dairy free helps your symptoms... you will know in two weeks, if it makes you feel better. It did make me feel better for a long time (it also helped me lose weight which is good thing for me) but it stopped making me feel better, and I found that adding back in some grains and fruits actually make me feel better, NOW!
Posts: 1728 | From USA | Registered: May 2011
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posted
Check out "The Lyme Diet Book," written by an LLND who treats Lyme patients.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Everything in moderation. For me, I'm dairy, gluten and sugar free because I feel better when eating that way.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Kudzuslipper
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I 2nd the lyme diet book. very rational and moderate.
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Ellen101
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It depends on what your issues/goals are. For me following a Paleo diet as well as cutting out all starches has worked really well in decreasing any pain I had or GI issues.
It's hard at first as my diet is gluten, soy, dairy, starch and grain free, but worth it Posts: 1748 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
If you are dairy, gluten and sugar free, could you give an example of what a daily menu would be? Thanks!
Posts: 194 | From Pa | Registered: Mar 2004
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Keebler
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- Breakfast:
Chicken (or Salmon / Sardines) or Eggs
Kale, Chard or other leafy green. Lots.
Other color: carrot or beet slices.
A little Black Rice or Wild Rice.
Tart apple slices, cinnamon or cardamom sprinkles are nice. Lightly cooked nice, too.
Hibiscus Tea (for some vitamin C . . . a touch of stevia for sweetness).
Lunch:
Curried Lentils soup (with or without some chicken) - Sautéed onions / garlic / ginger start this out in the best way.
Red Rice
Carrots work well with lentils
Leafy green LOTS (one that you did not have at breakfast - kale works well with lentils).
Coconut oil, "butter" or milk added just as serving. Goes well with curry.
Green Tea
If you can "do" dark berries, now's a good time
Dinner:
Salad (LOTS) with Quinoa.
Black or Red Beans (w or w/o some grass fed beef)
Some more bright colored veggies, maybe red bell pepper slices, cucumbers.
Season beans / beef to your liking. Chili (add some tomatoes), etc.
Dressing: make it yourself with some extra virgin olive oil, sea salt, a touch of rice wine vinegar and garden herbs such as thyme / rosemary - or dill.
Herb tea. Hibiscus also good.
Dessert:
Again, a few dark berries if you can tolerate those. Or a few slices of a tart apple, with nutmeg sprinkled on.
Pecans, Walnuts, Macadamia Nuts, Almonds -
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Ellen101
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I eat similar to Keebler except no starches so no rice or quinoa. I do have sugar, but only maple syrup. Breakfast is usually chicken and spinach or a homemade muffin in a mug with almond flour, egg, maple syrup, almond milk and raspberries. Lunch could be tuna with lettuce, cukes, olives, sea salt, lemon juice and olive oil. Dinner is chicken, fish or beef with either salad, spinach or kale. I do make homemade icecream as a treat with coconut or almond milk.
Posts: 1748 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2011
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WPinVA
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I know, I found similarly frustrating info when I went looking as well.
What works for me:
Eating protein at every meal and many snacks.
Trying to balance my meals with a mix of protein, high quality carbohydrates (whole grain, etc) and fruits and veggies.
Eating as little processed food as humanly possible. There is a lot to disagree with on diet but I don't think anyone things processed food is good for anyone.
Going gluten free was surprisingly helpful. Not surprising to my doctor but it surprised me.
Also, I tend to feel better without dairy, but the effect wasn't as dramatic as gluten.
Good luck! The good thing is that you can try something and if it doesn't make you feel better, you don't have to stick with it. For instance, I felt terrible off of all carbs while some swear by it.
There is also an interesting book called Eat Right for Your Blood Type. I don't follow everything in there but found the concept kind of intriguing and the idea that there is no one size fits all diet resonated with me.
Posts: 1737 | From Virginia | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
Keebler is dead on sadly it's a trial and error process. Although because of Candida there are things to avoid for sure.
I did get a food allergy test and avoid them but there's so many more I avoid because how I feel if I don't!
Sometime though I want a cookie or potato chips so I do and just know well I will feel sick but the cookie was worth it
-------------------- Good friends are like stars... You don't always see them, but you know they are always there!!! Posts: 362 | From west chester, pa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Keebler
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- amyb,
there are ways to satisfy the craving, entirely . . . and still have that be healthful.
It's all about ingredients. First: what kind of cookie was it you wanted? What's that main flavor / ingredient? Start there and take that back to how it came to be in the world.
If I want an oatmeal cookie, I just have some certified GF thick rolled oats, raisins, and the spices and vanilla. It's usually the vanilla and raisins that I want the most. Coconut Butter with that is also nice.
A spoonful of coconut butter (Artisana is excellent) is also a satisfying and sweet treat all by itself.
And, if you are wanting some nutmeg, did you know it's delicious on lightly steamed spinach?
Vanilla & cinnamon can go with Wild Rice, too. Toss in a raisin or two if you can "do" that.
The "sweet spices" also go nicely on all kinds of vegetables. And "Chinese Five Spice" is great with meats. It adds a sweet richness.
I wish I could explain this better with other examples but the basics is to either find someone who makes a cookie with only excellent ingredients or make it yourself. It's about cutting out the damaging ingredients. That's very possible. Or shift the form.
I've never found any GF or "health" cookie that was good for anyone, though. Pamela's makes some (not all) GF cookies but the simple sugar is just a diabetic coma waiting to happen. Same with all of the GF cake or brownie mixes.
All really bad stuff. And, regarding the sugar hit, that's also not worth it because it can do damage for a long time afterward and just perpetuates the addiction.
If you can't eat just 2 or 3, it's a huge problem. And I know of no packaged treat that does not have that addictive action going for it. So, even if one can stay within moderation, it's always going to be on our minds until we reach for it again, or break free once and for all.
Still, there are ways to get complex carbs as a treat. I have found that if they sugar is cut WAY down, it's not so addictive.
For instance: I eat about one ounce of chocolate a day. It's got to be at least 80% though - anything lower numbered (more sugar) and it makes me feel awful and want more of it (well, not so much now as I've learned my body does not WANT it that sweet).
And the only 80% Dark that I've found that is smooth and not bitter is Equal Exchange Panama Extra Dark. It's GF (confirmed on their website but not on the label).
What seems to make this work is the balance of sugar, fat, protein. Enjoying some nuts with it, the sugar is very low. The good fat in chocolate naturally and the good fat in nuts is the balance, with the protein from nuts. But if a trace more sugar is there, it would topple for my body.
For someone dealing with candida (which I don't), even that much sugar may not work and may not be worth the spiral effect. Still, there are ways to work with that. Stevia really helps.
As for gluten, it's never worth to slip off that slippery slope for someone with celiac (and I think, too, for those who are sensitive).
The brain, the inside of our brain, can take up to six months to "recover" from one gluten hit. So, no, it's never worth it. There are so many other ways to enjoy a treat, even every day.
This can be a challenge not just to alter ingredients, recipes, habits but also to stretch our taste buds to new foods that may well become our treat of choice. Variety really matters. Taste, too. And no one is saying you ever have to give that up. Just go for goodness, the real deal. -
[ 08-22-2014, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
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- It also occurs to me (sometimes too late) that if I crave sweet, I may be low in magnesium, certain B vitamins, etc.
If I let the magnesium taper off, I will want more sugar. So, it really pays to keep the nutrients steady.
Same with craving sweets for energy. Often, adrenal support &/or rest / sleep need the attention.
Green Tea is also excellent for a lift. So, not just figure out what flavors or the food "base" that we want . . . but the reason behind it if it's driven by physiological need. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Thanks to all for the many well thought out responses. Yes, I am frustrated with so many people who are zealots on their "Lyme diet". BTW - NO zealots in those who responded - thank you!
There is so little testing and research done on Lyme in general diet becomes a side issue.
About all I can gather that is "probably bad" are "processed foods, sugar, yeast and alcohol.
For awhile milk and gluten were on the REALLY BAD list and dropping both made me feel better for awhile. I missed white bread so added it (gluten) but noticed no downturn so now no clue about gluten. Still not sure about milk.
As a retired engineer who is used to doing organized studies the lack of such research in Lyme is frustrating.
Lyme picnics, fund raisers, parades, marches, marathons etc. are all fine but IMO organized clinical testing using scientific protocols (i.e. double blind studies etc.) would accomplish much more.
Posts: 133 | From Shawnee, KS | Registered: Sep 2007
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Keebler
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- How to tell if milk might get you down: for me, it's usually the nose that knows first. If I stop up at all, phlegm forming. Then throat clearing, another sign of phlegm. Then my ears start aching a bit.
The phlegm factor is mostly in the upper respiratory system for me but for anyone who develops phlegm from dairy, it also will affect lining of stomach, whole GI tract, and even the lungs can get that phlegm forming.
Phlegm harbors all kind of bad boy germs so that's one reason to avoid it from forming in the first place. And, if such food(s) trigger a phlegm response in a person, likely other sorts of immune reactions are going on that can stress the body in various ways.
Some with dairy issues can do some of the good quality plain yogurts but some can't. (I wish I could.)
If you don't sense any difference when you consume good quality dairy, I'd say, great. Still, it's best whole from organically raised (or close to it) grass fed cattle that are pastured, well cared for, etc. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- You mention clinical double blind studies.
While this started as a food thread, it's your thread, and this is an important issue.
Because lyme is usually never the same for any two people, it's very hard to approach it like a typical garden variety infection. Lyme rarely travels alone, there are various strains, and the set of other infections varies so much from one person to the next.
It would be unthinkable and cruel to just treat one infection if a person has multiple TBD. A double blind study can't treat multiple infections.
There would also have to be the control group, a group known to carry (at least) lyme yet go without treatment. That would be criminal behavior, IMO. A sentence of misery, extreme hardship in all facets of life and even risk of death. Not humane, nor ethical. Ever.
For that reason alone, clinical double blind studies for persons with lyme simply cannot be allowed. Not in that manner.
[Although so many of us have been denied treatment, even with positive lab results and classic symptoms - and that's unethical and so very wrong in so many ways - but that's not your question here.]
Observational studies, now, we can learn from those but the thinking caps have to be really attuned. And many just don't want to (or can't figure out how) to go there.
A jump here because I interjected an afterthought. I can't figure out how to make a proper segue now. But that's how it goes, eh? So . . . a different point:
And, as treatment can be so hard on the liver & kidneys (and ears), liver & kidney support is absolutely vital to help protect the liver (and ears, at least to some degree against ototoxic meds, as so many are).
The way double blind studies are set up does not typically have "room" to incorporate such necessary support methods. And, those methods will vary from one person to the next, as well. Some can handle milk thistle just fine, some can't and need a different method.
Some Rx can work well with milk thistle (timed away) but some (especially with Babesia treatment) require a different kind of protection.
Clearly, more needs to be done to round up lots of tick and really see just what all they are carrying and transmitting. So many who think they know all about ticks and lyme have no clue about the coinfections and how they complicate the matter.
I think they've just not even bothered to really look, or to look at what those who already know a lot have studied. There is a great deal of research and thought that the mainstream lyme "experts" just ignore. They seem to just not want to know more.
And, indeed, that has got to change. But, even if it were to be just lyme, there are so many forms of it, the ability to "morph" and hide are not often considered by the mainstream.
It requires combination treatment and that's very tricky with a double blind study that expects there to be one drug, one way, set time and all patients to be the same. It just never works that way with lyme once it gets into people.
So, some smart minds have to figure out how to take into account all the variables and also that individual treatment plans are going to have to be the answer for many illnesses as we move along in time.
Rather than think that there can be found to be just one drug to treat everyone, everytime, for x number of days or doses and those who don't improve or relapse are just out of luck, losers, or fakers (as is the current 'thought' of IDSA) . . .
I'd like to see those outside of ILADS actually be more concerned about how lyme works, in all its strains, forms, states, cycles and along with other infections. The mainstream has failed to get to know lyme, itself. It's not like any other infection.
Not just the "menu" of tick borne infections being different, variations in human bodies can pose some differences that also get in the way.
ILADS seems to understand this and does their best to move forward (against so much push back).
I think it is time to be able to look at what works for people. Those who have done well, let's see how and transfer that knowledge & technique to other case, where appropriate. We don't need a double blind clinical trial for every decision.
Although, I sure would like a better understand of just how and why so many Rx across the board (not just antibiotics) are so toxic to the ears (hearing and vestibular systems) - and to the liver and kidneys.
How they block certain enzymes - or enzyme deficiencies in some people - seem to be a key. We need to understand this better and then, I think, we can be better at matching the drug to the person.
IDSA / CDC, et.al. do not understand any of the complexities here, though. It still puzzles me as to if they are just so dense to not be able to understand the complexities . . . or just don't care about the suffering encountered as they put up more resistance and road blocks.
And, many states (such as the one in which I live) still continue their "no lyme here" policy as they allow tick populations to grow unchecked, hiding right under their noses. Very bad policy. -
[ 08-22-2014, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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GretaM
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I agree with one point stated by every poster above...
Avoid processed or refined foods.
I tend to eat the same type of food as Ellen and Keebler and Kudzu, although my grain of choice about every second day is gf Scottish oats mixed with natural whey isolate protein and coconut cream for breakfast.
Other grains do not digest well. (yet). I can't yet eat grains daily.
Also, BC has a wonderful selection of fruit this time of year, so I enjoy the in season local organic fruits with each meal.
Salmon is in season here also so I have salmon every day.
I think the best thing is for folks to keep a food diary and see if any particular foods exacerbate their symptoms.
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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ukcarry
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posted
Another point to make is that a suitable diet for a person with Lyme may change over the course of the illness. What you may tolerate at one stage, you may have to stop at a later stage. Yoy may have to adapt to try to help whatever your most prominent symptoms are at any given time, eg candida, SIBO, arthritis etc.
I avoid gluten, cow's dairy, sugar, eat low fructose and yeast, but that still leaves me with lots of gut issues. I will soon be trying the Fast Tract Diet by Norm Robillard to see if it will help with problems caused by suspected SIBO.
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Antibiotics kill good bacteria in your digestive tract. Digestive issues can be helped with supplements. Did anyone mention yogurt or probiotics? I also use ground caraway seeds on things like cottage cheese. Caraway helps with gas and gives you the rye bread taste with out the carbs. Digestive enzymes come in pills that are missing without symbiotic bacteria. And psyllium is a must to keep it moving, if you know what I mean.
-------------------- * Posts: 74 | From Bowie, Maryland | Registered: Aug 2014
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surprise
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Excellent point ukcarry about things may change and shift as healing- wish I would have gone 100% gluten and dairy free earlier than I did.
I am curious about the Fast Tract Diet targeting SIBO, which I am wondering is my issue. Loathe to go in and ask for testing. Did you read the book?
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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Haley
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Dr. S's food plan is a good one. He eliminates the foods that tend to cause the most inflammation and then gradually starts adding them back in. This way you can tell which foods bother you. He says that the degree of inflammation is directly correlated with the severity of symptoms. http://www.lymedoctor.com
***edited name of LLMD***
[ 08-23-2014, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Haley ]
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Brussels
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posted
Gut issues for me were mostly solved with chlorella. That is my magic plant, for years, during lyme, and now, after lyme.
During lyme, without chlorella, I didn't even have a life. With chlorella taken 3-5 times a day, I could even feel I was not sick, some days.
I can live a couple of months without chlorella, no GI symptom, but they slowly come back.
Now I take it about 2, 3 time a week. Sometimes even less.
If you wait for tests to be done for lyme and its variations (lyme alone affects the conjunctive tissues of the body, meaning many organs at once), plus coinfections (each attacks different parts of your body), I guess, we all agree, we will have to wait more than a lifetime to get any valid conclusions.
I just use common sense: no processed foods, no additives, no preservatives, when I can.
No juices (not a natural way to take fruits) either. Not even think about stuff like sodas or chips.
I do not add sugar to anything, except that I do take a piece of dark chocolate a day (that is my dose of processed food and sugar). Socially, I can't say no to everything, so I do take sometimes a dessert here and then. But I have no lyme anymore, so my body can afford that!
For me, the main point to feel better during lyme was to muscle test the food I was taking.
Dr. K.'s practioners do that to EVERY SINGLE patient, if not on your 1st appointment, on your 2nd. It makes a huge difference on the level of fatigue.
If after eating, you get tired, it is a bad sign. Never you should get less energy after eating. You should feel relaxed, and slightly more energized than before eating. That is my rule of thumb.
Amazingly, during lyme, soooo many things tested negative. After lyme, I could take many of the things I couldn't while lyme was active.
These last months, I have been trying gluten free diet. Not bad, I would say. Digestion is easy.
Your body spends most of your energy in digestion. If digestion is problematic for whatever reasons (allergies, intolerance, chemicals, candida, parasitism, borrelia, whatever else), your body will need more energy to deal with the problem. And you will get inferior nourishment.
Then with the rest of the energy and nourishment left, your body has still the huge task of dealing with chronic lyme and coinfections, then with cleaning the mess of herxes...
that is why eating properly, getting energy + nourishment from food is crucial for healing.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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ukcarry
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Surprise, yes, I have bought the most recent kindle book, ostensibly for IBS, but still , like the earlier one for GERD, addressing SIBO, which he thinks is behind both.
I expect that I will have to go beyond the measures in his diet, especially to avoid yeast too, but intend to start it next month, not necessarily using all of the recipes on his two week plan, but using his food tables to create my own ideas. Norm Robillard says that you will know within 2 weeks if this will help you.
Let me know if you decide to try it, Surprise!
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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surprise
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uk, I have been reading up on SIBO, I've read some before, but I started soil based probiotics again recently, with improvement w/ specifically my gut working better,
so I've been reading more-
I actually like what the website 'Animal Farm' has to say (research) and will be adding potato starch.
I am pretty upset my trips to a gastro Dr. never once was SIBO suggested, and I was there for the symptoms! Maddening. This is why I rarely see Dr.s for myself.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
hermit .. I've found yogurt to be counter-productive, for the most part. Most of it contains far too much sugar or additives and far TOO LITTLE natural probiotics.
Most here (the smart ones) supplement with plenty of probiotics.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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