Kudzuslipper
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posted
this really made my day! let's all just curl up and die. Well maybe most people will just fight it off. Maybe it's weaker transmitted this way, without all the other crap from the tick. Or just antibodies...like inoculation from your partner. doesn't say that both partners are sick.
But it sure will make medical community take notice.
Posts: 1728 | From USA | Registered: May 2011
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posted
I just wonder how many marriage will end over this. This is a hard disease and for someone that is very sick and has no support system from their spouse and they gave it to them, I say the marriage may end.
Posts: 52 | From Ohio | Registered: Oct 2013
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GretaM
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posted
Argh.
What disturbs me about this is that with HIV, it was always said it was easier to catch if one was on the "receiving" side of things.
Trying to keep things PG.
But with this study, it shows that semen is variable in whether or not the spirochete is present.
But 100% of vaginal secretions had spirochetes.
So...
Well I'm going out on a limb here, I don't give a hoot.
Looks like traditional and oral intercourse are high-risk if a female with lyme infection is involved.
How does one approach this conversation with their partner?
Especially a partner who doesn't believe chronic lyme disease exists? Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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Lymedin2010
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THANK YOU!!!
This is what we have been saying for a while now. We know best, because we see the gradual disease progression in our partners. Even though the partners are in such denial & are in the intermediary stages.
Sexual transmission will most likely not involve transfer of every single different type of "Lyme" bacteria/virus/parasite & as a result the progression may be slower.
It is basically getting a tick bite with not as many strains & then you can role the dice as to whether it will take weeks, months, or years to see the full onset. In a way sort of like AIDS with variability as to how the host immune system & inherent surroundings adapt to their new found frenemies.
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GretaM
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I wish more studies were being done on reinfection rates. Ie: passing back and forth.
Maybe one partner doesn't show any symptoms because they have a better immune system, but the other partner keeps getting sick. And even though treating, just plateaus. Ie: keeps getting reinfected by the partner.
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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posted
One big missing piece of information is whether transmission in possible if the lyme positive person is on antibiotics. My children all have it and they want children. I would think as hard as it is to get positive tests that if someone is on an antibiotic at the time of conception and it is the male, the chances of the wife getting it are questionable. If the female has it, there have been a couple doctors say as long as they are on 2 antibiotics the chances of transmitting to fetus is small. Practicing "safe sex" is not the worst thing in the world you know.
Posts: 366 | From Kalamazoo, Michigan | Registered: Jun 2008
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Keebler
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posted
- Quote: "Practicing "safe sex" is not the worst thing in the world you know." (JCarlhelp)
True. Responsibility and Respect just go together.
And there are so many other infections that can be passed with intimate connections. So many that go undiscussed. Candida, various herpes, etc.
It's not so much that any of these (even lyme) is a STD, but it can be one mode of transport, in some cases. Not to be overlooked.
Still, ticks are also not the only vectors that carry lyme. Mosquitoes can, too. And so that can also explain a lot.
We have to get over the stigma and into the education of it all, and put it into perspective, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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GretaM
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Yes, I agree that safe sex is not the worst thing in the world.
My nightmare is: what if I have already passed it to my loved one?
That's the worst thing in the world for me currently.
And for a side humor...to try and lighten this depressing thread...
How on earth does one use a dental dam? Does it come with instructions?
(Hope the instructions are better than Ikeas)
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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Lymedin2010
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posted
It all depends on which ABX. Doxy & Amoxy put it into cyst mode, so why would it just magically disappear? IF it is in the sperm or vagina then it can just as easily be in cyst mode. Worst yet it can be in cyst & intracellular, where it may even invade ABX altogether & can easily be passed on.
Here is the BIGGER issue we face. I now live next to so many people just on my block who have it. It just takes one mosquito bite to bite one of them & another family member for them to have it. It just takes one mosquito to enter my house bite me & then bite one of my children who didn't have it.
I can readily see spirochetes in ONE DROP of my blood. Countless many of them that live & hide in the Red Blood Cell. All it takes is a mosquito to go blood hopping from one person to another. The more people you have around you with TBD, the greater your chances of disease spread.
Funny, my wife too. Yeast infections, headaches, progressive tiredness, muscle twitches, spasms, & disabled from walking due to "pinched nerve" & some kind of infection in her leg. Some hair loss & stomach pains that come and go. Yet, she is only Vitamin D deficient. Hmmmmmm.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
Do you think it would be safe if both people were in a mild hyperbaric chamber. Just thought I would lighten it up a little.
Posts: 366 | From Kalamazoo, Michigan | Registered: Jun 2008
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Keebler
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posted
- Well, THAT would be an adventure and interesting experiment! Candlelight to set the mood would be out, though. -
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GretaM
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Hahaha! JCarl and Keebler! Funny!
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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droid1226
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posted
This means it must persist in the body, which WE all know. Therefor covered by insurance. Enough of the Post Lyme BS.
Kudzuslipper
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posted
So what's in vaginal secretions that's not in saliva? We know ketes live in gum tissue... So no kissing either... What about sneezing?
Well, I guess it's time to believe in natural selection! What a way for mankind to go! Sorry, that was unusually dark for me... But I just don't feel there is a way to win this anymore.
But on a plus side... It's a good thing Lyme and co. does a number on your sex drive!
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Lymedin2010
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I met a girl online playing poker some 1 1/2 years ago. She confided in me that she had some 200 sexual partners in her young life.
She now has cancer & from the symptoms she described to be sounded like Lyme. She had many of the same symptoms that I have, but heck I had 2 pages worth at that time.
She had to have part of her womanhood taken out & she was battling the cancer.
The gears in my head were turning & I concluded she must have picked up many bacteria from many many people & it was the sum total that just took her down. I am willing to put some money that she also has one of the 100 or something form of Borrelia in her blood as well.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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I read that the tick is the best transmitter because the tick stays long on the skin and the lyme bacteria bathe in the host blood and have time to put on protein coverings matching host proteins so that the host immune system does not recognize the lyme bacteria as foreign. This is why lyme can take hold in people.
While a mosquito and through sex, the immune system of the host's or non-infected partner's immune system recognizes the foreign intruder and can fight against it. If their immune system is healthy.
That is the rationale anyway.
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CherylSue
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If it were that easily transmitted, the whole world would have Lyme by now. I think it depends on how strong your immune system is. Lyme is contagious, perhaps, but maybe more so by a tick bite.
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Tincup
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'Kete-tracker
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posted
CherylSue, A lot depends, I believe, on how prevalent the wild form of the spirochete IS in the body. An untreated suffering Lyme victim is far more likely to transmit the infection to his/ her partner than one who's been on high level 'abx' for even a few days. The antibiotics lyse (kill)nearly all free-traveling 'ketes. And the health of the immune system of the other uninfected partner certainly plays a role as well.
But finding volunteers for a *thorough* study of transmission between sexual partners for ANY disease that may not [ever] have a cure, will be a tough job for sure. Who wants to risk it? Animal study models (mice, rabbits) may be our best hope.
As for "We don’t yet understand why women with Lyme disease have consistently positive vaginal secretions, whilst semen samples are more variable"... it seems they're comparing different products/ environments. Semen originates in the lower epididymus (the "cauda region") of the testicle while vaginal secretions are usually a mix of items.
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steve1906
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GretaM, I always try and ans. questions when I can be of help.
quote:How on earth does one use a dental dam? Does it come with instructions?
We’ll, I’ll be totally honest, I have never even heard of this, so I looked it up. Some videos on the internet were XXX, so I pick a light one.
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
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TF
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posted
In my experience, it isn't that easy to get this disease sexually if you are healthy.
My well known lyme doctor told me that sexual transmission is rare.
I had undiagnosed lyme, babs, and bart for 10 years before a doctor thought to test me for lyme. I was happily married that entire time.
In spite of unprotected sex for 10 years, when I had my husband checked for lyme by Igenex, he was negative. Only one + on band 41.
He was symptom free at the time of the test and is still symptom free 10 years later.
So, I didn't give my husband lyme in spite of having it undiagnosed for many years. I had symptoms for those 10 years, but was misdiagnosed as nothing is wrong with you, depressed, in menopause, etc. Still my hubby did not get sick.
My husband is a healthy person and always has been. So, my experience backs up what my lyme doctor said. It is not a guaranteed 100% transmission--far from it.
Having said that, however, I know another lyme doctor who wants to carefully interview the spouse of any lyme patient. She says that she has seen married patients who can't get well and has concluded that the patient is getting reinfected from an untreated spouse. When she treats both members of the couple, then they get well.
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GretaM
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Thanks Steve!
Excellent, to the point, appropriate, non offensive lesson re: the correct and safe use of a dental dam.
Much appreciated! Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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Keebler
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posted
- They are probably not BPA-free, though (another "Oy, Vey" consideration!) -
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droid1226
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posted
There's absolutely no way of telling if it's easily passed sexually or not. Until there's proper testing with the accuracy rate of HIV and it becomes a standard test that ID's order.
posted
Can co infections be sexually transferred as well?
-------------------- T. Brown
CDC Lyme Positive Co infections? Who knows... Bands 18+ 30+39+41+45+58+66+ IGG 23+39+41+IGM Posts: 351 | From Boston MA | Registered: Oct 2013
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map1131
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Okay, I've read through this thread again. Greta, what the heck started the dental dam comment?
I still don't get it. Should I use a dental dam? Are you being silly?
I guess so if Steve also goggled dental dam? I know he's nutso.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
"But finding volunteers for a *thorough* study of transmission between sexual partners for ANY disease that may not [ever] have a cure, will be a tough job for sure. Who wants to risk it?"
Ok, I have a solution here. I volunteer the entire IDSA Lyme committee, plus all the leading denialists in CDC, NIH, NY Medical College, Public Health England etc etc for a randomized double-blind controlled study.
Each Denialist is paired with a Denialist of the opposite sex. The couples are divided into two groups.
Group 1: One member of each pair is randomly chosen to be deliberately infected with Borrelia (let's try garinii) and then each couple must have sex.
Group 2 (Control group) No one is infected with Lyme, but each couple has sex. (They're all so repulsive, that in itself should be a punishment even without the Lyme.)
We then test them using the same methods as Sapi, Stricker et al to see who has transmitted it to whom.
They have nothing to worry about - after all, they all agree it's easily cured in two weeks, right?
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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map1131
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posted
I have a few names of ID that I would like to volunteer for the study.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Bad News: I may be alone the rest of my life.
Good News: Moo Ha Ha My ex probably has it, the philandering bastard, along with all the bar ****s he encounters.
Posts: 123 | From Pawleys Island SC | Registered: Mar 2013
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nefferdun
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I like the study and I have some doctors I would like to volunteer as well.
I remember reading a long time ago that it can be transmitted male to female but not the other way around. Transmission is rare.
What about the other infections? If you can get bartonella from a cat's saliva entering a open wound, why can't you get it from a human kiss ?
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kudzuslipper
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perhaps I didn't read well enough, but did the study say if the partners who showed it in their blood were sick with lyme or just had the bb spirochetes?
I truly wouldn't be surprised if at this point every single person would have bb if you looked hard enough. in fact maybe we (mankind) always had it and didn't know what to call it.
maybe we just share an antibody... kind of like a vaccination.
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GretaM
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posted
Haha!
Crawgirl! Funny!
Map...the part about the dental dam was serious, but the joke about needing instructions was not.
Sex education when I went to school was abstinence and anatomical drawings of innards.
The useful info was omitted.
If I gave my bf lyme I could not live with myself.
I would not wish lyme on my worst enemy.
And even though Eight Legs Bad has a great idea for some study volunteers (and I had a laugh at imagining who drew the short straw and had to sleep with who, haha), and although there are some denialists at the BCCDC who make life he11 for lyme patients and docs in BC, I don't think the study would be representative of the truth.
I am convinced the denialists have a patent on a treatment-so their lyme would be a 2 week course of abx I'm sure.
Their level of suffering would be mild compared to the rest of us poor slobs.
They'd get some. While we'd still be abstaining or making love in full body saran wrap.
Haha.
Nope. It isn't going to be someone in the denialist camp that will create change...
It will be our docs and us.
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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posted
Can co infections be sexually transferred as Well?
-------------------- T. Brown
CDC Lyme Positive Co infections? Who knows... Bands 18+ 30+39+41+45+58+66+ IGG 23+39+41+IGM Posts: 351 | From Boston MA | Registered: Oct 2013
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steve1906
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posted
I don't believe Lyme or C0-infections are sexually passed from one to the other.
I Understand the study, but more research needs to be done.
I think if blood is passed (sexually), from one to the other that’s very possible, maybe even true.
Pam, I agree with you (I’m nutso), really…I am…BUT, if all this talk is true about being sexually passed (THEN FOLLOW MY INSRTCTIONS FOR THE (DENTAL DAM)!!!!
(I have more instructions from other web-sites if you need them)
Steve
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
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surprise
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posted
Hard to believe one could find a good laugh on this topic/ thread, but there it was.
Which ties to Dr. McDonald's autopsy of 10 frozen Alzheimer brains, and finding 7 of the 10 with Borrelia spirochetes.
Perhaps if one is infected with Lyme without co- infections (sexual transmission) it's more of a slow burn down. 'Old age' 'arthritis' 'IBS' 'dementia' then 'Alzheimer's'
God, this is depressing.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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map1131
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surprise, if we lose our sense of humor....it's doom and gloom all the time. Can't live in doom and gloom.
That's where the bad guys want our minds to be is down down down. They try to drag us there. One must stay as positive as possible. Including laughing and joking about something so serious in our lives.
feels much better.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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oxygenbabe
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This is not proof. It's one study, not yet replicated, saying they found spirochetes in vaginal secretions. Whether that can be replicated and whether they can prove those spirochetes would travel up the male urethra and who knows what, is still to be proven. They should try it in mice.
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steve1906
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Agreed oxygenbabe...
Pam, well said! We’re all friends here unfortunately, I wish we were all friends on a secluded Island with, pineapple trees and bright blue ocean waters. (Maybe someday)!
If I don’t find some humor in each day, I’m stuck thinking about this type of life ((LYME)).
As I’ve said in the past – The best medication in the world is (Laughter)!
Steve
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lymedin2010
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"If it were that easily transmitted, the whole world would have Lyme by now. I think it depends on how strong your immune system is. Lyme is contagious, perhaps, but maybe more so by a tick bite. "
Then everyone would have AIDS by now as well by that extrapolation. This involves fluid transfer.
What I am surprised at is this. I searched for HOURS & HOURS at my blood when I first got sick. I could not find a single damn thing. Then as my symptoms increased & as the months kept passing by, I could finally see more & more borrelia.
My symptoms coincide with the number of bacteria I see in my blood. I am full of spirochetes, cysts, & blebs from head to toe.
I predict & can just about bet my life that I have blebs from the spirochetes shedding from my skin. This is much harder for someone to contract, since the skin flake would have to go into someones nostrils, mouth, or eyes for the spirochete to awaken & continue it's growth phase.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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oxygenbabe
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posted
AIDS is generally most risky if you indulge in anal sex regularly, which is most common among gay males, or apparently in Africa as a contraceptive method. So no it's not just fluid exchange. It's also fairly easily passed through dirty needles.
I doubt lyme is an STD.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I agree with Lymedin2010 about it depending on how strong your immune system is. I know my Lyme came to life in living color when I was going through a hideous time in my life-stress from work, home you name it.
I'd bet if we took a poll, we'd find that most of us got sick while we were under stress.
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Lymedin2010
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Syphilis is a burrowing spirochete JUST LIKE Borrelia.
Borrelia is a STD JUST LIKE Syphilis.
Why would anyone doubt it & not at least bring up the possibility. I can guarantee you will have Borrelia in your blood if you used a needle after me.
Here a dentist finds spirochetes in your mouth. They may not be the same spirochetes that cause Lyme, but it is a good indication where they can be found. They can be found EVERYWHERE & anywhere.
When I had just a few, but still felt like death symptoms, I could not find the spirochetes. After a few months of ABX, I find them all over the place. They have taken over my body.
Crawgir1, mine exploded at maximum stress. So much stress that I thought that I would get cancer or sick if I did not find a way to release the stress.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tincup
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posted
Oxygenbabe and others doubting there is a risk, or that Lyme can't be sexually transmitted. Please consider this...
Aside from LLMD's having to deal with treating spouses of Lyme patients due to the passing back and forth of Lyme between them for YEARS now...
There is more literature on it. Here is a small sampling.
Keep in mind too that the spirochete has been found in breast milk and Lyme can be passed from mother to fetus. Lyme spirochetes are found in cow's milk and are not killed during storage of donated blood, even if heated or frozen.
I HOPE no one waits to see if another study can be done before taking this seriously. The "pre" studies are there, scant, but there.
It's just taken 15 years to get the follow up study completed and published due to lack of research dollars and immense pressure from IDSA/CDC, and lack of time available by those who know, but are so overwhelmed with treating sick patients they can't stop everything to do studies.
Yaws, another spirochetal infection, is spread by skin to skin contact through an existing break in the skin's surface.
Leptospirosis (spirochetal disease) is transmitted to humans simply by allowing water (or moist dirt, or food) contaminated by animal urine to come in contact with breaks in the skin, eyes, or mucous membranes.
And as the "safety girl" my motto has always been, better safe than sorry!!
map1131
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posted
crawgirl, I bet you're right on stress is what sent us all over the edge.
Over the years I've read, death of loved one, D-I-V-O-R-C-E(couldn't help the old song title, car accidents, giving birth, relocation, surgery etc etc.
The straw that broke my back was dental issue. I had unknown early lyme already, then 12 nymphs got me, 3 weeks later a molar that was highly infected and I'd spent $$$$ in 5 yrs trying to save this tooth with dentist & perio and throbbed like someone was taking a hammer to it daily.
I scheduled emergency with dentist and demanded he pull it now. He did and he was angry about it. He let me walk out of that office without rxing antibiotics for infection in that area....
4 days later I awoke and one hour later, thought I was dying. That infection had gone to the blood stream. I'm blessed it didn't kill me.
It was 10 days later that a HMO doctor put me on abx, he was of the opinion that I had possible Lyme Disease. Second blessing. It took years to put all my trauma together and understand how it all happened.
The Perfect Storm!
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Finding borrelia in vaginal tissues HAS been confirmed for years now. There are many more abstracts that have found borrelia in vaginal tissues and a couple of lichen sclerosus of the mouth. I will leave that one to your imagination.
I know this because my husband and I are sick. I developed lichen sclerosus (confirmed by gyn) and did some research and found a huge connection to lyme.
After treatment with ceftin it mysteriously went away. My gyn has never seen it just go away before.
map1131
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posted
TF, I call three years of exposure to mold a stressor. It's a stressor to the already failing immune system.
It's pile upon pile of toxins in life. Physically or emotionally.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Many including me got sick immediately (within 2 weeks) of tickbite. Bullseye rash, fever, stiff neck, and then progressive symptoms in spite of antibiotic treatment. I assume I had an invasive nasty strain.
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Lymedin2010
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"TF, I call three years of exposure to mold a stressor. It's a stressor to the already failing immune system."
You took the words right out of my mouth. Yes, it is understood that is not an external visible stressor, but most definitely biological & immunological one. There are many as we now know, bacterial, viral, chemical,genetic....etc.
What a coincidence TF, I just sent out my urine to be tested for mold today. I have a gut feeling it will be sky high. I was shocked to see black mold growing in my sons bedroom windows & there has always been trace amounts in the bathroom. God only knows about the basement/ground level, although I have never seen it there.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
HIV is hard to catch through heterosexual transmission. I would think that Lyme is hard to catch this way too.
It takes about 1,000 heterosexual contacts with an HIV +ve partner to result in one infection. Except in Africa, where it plummets to 3 contacts.
What seems to be important is the presence of a wound or broken skin in the recipient, giving microbes a way to enter the bloodstream. A bad yeast infection may do it.
I hope this finding contributes to the demise of the denialists. Yes, it's one more thing to monitor. But we've known that this is a possibility for a long time.
Posts: 431 | From New England | Registered: Dec 2011
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canbravelyme
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posted
HIV is a virus, and Lyme a spirochetal bacteria. Very different. I think I'll start following the guidelines for Syphilis, and stop worrying about whether I might give it to someone if I share their drink.
-------------------- For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician. Posts: 1494 | From Getting there... | Registered: Aug 2006
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Lymedin2010
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"HIV is a virus, and Lyme a spirochetal bacteria. Very different. I think I'll start following the guidelines for Syphilis, and stop worrying about whether I might give it to someone if I share their drink."
HIV is a virus. Borrelia is a bacteria, BUT it can live in many stages & one of the stages behaves like a virus.
One of the stage is almost just like a virus. It is basically a shell with just DNA or RNA, a packet if you will & is a very small form. It then hatches & becomes a new borrelia.
If the "i" is a small spirochete, then the dot on the eye is the bleb. A spirochete can be the same length of a red blood cell (rbc). It can be as long as 4-5 lengths of rbc's. A few hundred blebs (virus like forms) can fit across a RBC.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
If Lyme disease would be only Borrelia it would be sooo much easier, but unfortunately Lyme is a pathogenic soup of bacterias, protozoaa, micoplasmas, viruses, parasitic worms, etc….
I got Lyme from my husband, so yes, it can be transmitted sexually.
The following information comes from DR. K. slides posted on his academy website. The slides are from 2010:
Lyme transmission
• Mosquitos , fleas, stinging flies (horse flies), spider bites • ticks • Blood transfusions • Sexual intercourse • Trans-placental transfer to the fetus • Breast feeding • Food • Saliva (kissing), contaminated utensils and telephones
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Lymedin2010
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I love the fact that a DOCTOR compiled that list. Do you have any references or copies of the slide, I would love to have that on hand as being admitted by a Dr.
I have had flaky skin on my beard that comes & goes throughout the years. After some parasitic meds this past summer my red face rashes & skin shedding has hit me in a whole other level. It comes & goes and is weird.
I am willing to bet anything that I am constantly shedding spirochete blebs & that all it will take is someone to respire it & to lodge in their passageways. What happens there after is the same role the dice game you play when getting bit by an insect.
My wife just reported a guy couple in her hospital. The person admitted has MS, among other complications. Makes you wonder?
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canbravelyme
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Great. Now I'll be doing all my kissing with a dental dam :/
Too bad I'm not into latex; sounds like I need a full body suit
Dr. S. told me once there was a mouse study -- two female mice in a cage; one with Lyme, one without -- X amount of time later -- both mice had Lyme.
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TF
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posted
Just remember that mice do a lot of things that humans don't normally do. For example, lick each other's rear ends numerous times per day, bite each other, root in each other's excrement, taste each other's urine, etc.
And, they NEVER wash their hands, or eat from separate bowls, or use soap, or clean their wounds with antiseptic or anything, or take a shower, or flush their urine or feces down the toilet.
So when 2 mice live together in a cage, whatever one has the other will likely get it if it can be transmitted through blood or bodily fluids. That definitely includes lyme disease.
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CherylSue
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Dr. K also discusses urine therapy for Lyme. You don't want to know what that is really. Personally, I take what he says with a grain of salt.
There needs to be clinical studies on this. At best we can say sexual activity is suspicious for Lyme transmission. It hasn't been proven.
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posted
Well actually I lnow what urine therapy is. Urine therapy has been used in Europe for ages and have been proven to be effective when abx failed.
Thinking outside of the box helps!!!
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Lymedin2010
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"Dr. S. told me once there was a mouse study -- two female mice in a cage; one with Lyme, one without -- X amount of time later -- both mice had Lyme."
Experimental inoculation of dogs with Borrelia burgdorferi. Burgess EC. Zentralbl Bakteriol Mikrobiol Hyg A 1986 Dec; 263(1-2): 49-54 PMID: 3554844 To determine if dogs could serve as a reservoir for Borrelia burgdorferi, three beagles were inoculated subcutaneously (SQ) with 200 laboratory cultured spirochetes which were originally isolated from blood of a Peromyscus leucopus from Ft. McCoy, Wisc. One four month old beagle was inoculated SQ with 5 ground Ixodes dammini from Shelter Island, N.Y. which came from an area with a 50% B. burgdorferi tick infection rate; and another uninfected four month old beagle was housed loose on the floor with the tick inoculated dog. All three spirochete inoculated beagles developed IFA antibody titers to B. burgdorferi of (7 log2) to (8 log2) by day 28 post inoculation. All were apparently healthy and no spirochetes were cultured from the blood. In an attempt to exacerbate the disease two of the dogs were given 3 mg of dexamethasone on day 68 post inoculation. B. burgdorferi was isolated from blood of all these dogs on days 4 and 97 days post inoculation. The tick inoculated dog developed a B. burgdorferi IFA antibody titer of (10 log2) by day 14 post inoculation. The contact exposed dog also developed a B. burgdorferi IFA antibody titer of (7 log2) on post contact day 21 indicating contact infection. B. burgdorferi was not isolated from either of these dogs. These results indicate that, contact transmission of B. burgdorferi may occur between dogs, dogs can be subclinically infected with B. burgdorferi and have persistent infections.
Clinical and serologic evaluations of induced Borrelia burgdorferi infection in dogs. Greene RT, Levine JF, Breitschwerdt EB, Walker RL, Berkhoff HA, Cullen J, Nicholson WL. Am J Vet Res 1988 Jun; 49(6): 752-7 PMID: 3041881 Adult Beagles were used to evaluate clinical signs and serologic response after inoculation with, or exposure to, Borrelia burgdorferi. An indirect immunofluorescent assay (IFA) and 2 ELISA were used to monitor the serologic response to B burgdorferi. Feeding infected ticks on 4 dogs (group 1) failed to cause seroconversion, and SC inoculation with 500 organisms caused minimal seroconversion in 2 of 4 dogs (group 2). At 56 days, approximately 3.01 X 10(8) B burgdorferi organisms were injected IV into group-1 dogs, and intraperitoneally into group-2 dogs. A control group of 4 dogs (group 3) had noninfected ticks feed on them, and then were given IV injection of physiologic saline solution. Increases in immunoglobulin M (IgM) titers were detected in 2 of 4 group-2 dogs approximately 7 days after the initial exposure. These titers returned to negligible values 20 days later. Immunoglobulin G titers increased approximately 10 days after the initial exposure and were mildly increased 56 days later, when dogs were exposed a second time. Both the IV and intraperitoneal injections (second exposures) resulted in increased IgM titers, which in both groups eventually returned to preexposure values after approximately 2 months. Immunoglobulin G titers increased within a week after the second exposure, and in 3 dogs monitored for 8 months, returned to negligible values after the 8-month period. One control dog had a slightly increased IgG titer 24 days after the second inoculation. The possibility of urine transmission is suggested. Clinical status, hemograms, serum biochemical profiles, ECG and results of urinalyses remained normal throughout the study.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
The prevalence and significance of Borrelia burgdorferi in the urine of feral reservoir hosts. Bosler EM, Schulze TL. Zentralbl Bakteriol Mikrobiol Hyg A 1986 Dec; 263(1-2): 40-4 PMID: 3577491 Live Borrelia burgdorferi were isolated from the blood and/or urine of white-footed mice (Peromyscus leucopus) collected on Shelter Island, New York, in 1984 and 1985. Prevalence of spirochetes in urine was consistently higher than in blood or both fluids simultaneously. Spirochetes remained viable for 18-24 hours in urine and were maintained in culture for one week. Mice removed from the field were spirocheturic for at least 13 months. One spirocheturic mouse developed spirochetemia one month after field removal indicating the pathogen can return to the peripheral circulation. Twenty-one kidneys from 22 mice had spirochetes in the interstitial areas and bridging the tubules. A positive correlation between Babesia microti infection and spirocheturia was seen. Although the mechanism of entry into the urine is unknown, B. microti infection may increase glomerular permeability. Babesia induced hematuria may provide possible nutrients to maintain spirochetes. Urine may provide a method for contact non-tick transmission of B. burgdorferi in natural rodent populations particularly during periods of nesting and/or breeding.
Transmission by MILK or food?
Most spirochetes (and other bacteria) ingested will probably be killed by the high acidic content in the stomach, but people with achlorhydria and newborns that have very low stomach acid production, does not have this protective barrier and might be at increased risk for getting infected by the oral route, if they ingest live spirochetes. Pasteurizing the milk and never eat semi-raw meat - must be recommended as prophylaxis.
Experimental inoculation of Peromyscus spp. with Borrelia burgdorferi: evidence of contact transmission. Burgess EC, Amundson TE, Davis JP, Kaslow RA, Edelman R. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 1986 Mar;35(2):355-9. PMID: 3513648 In order to determine if Peromyscus spp. could become infected with the Lyme disease spirochete (Borrelia burgdorferi) by direct inoculation and to determine the duration of spirochetemia, 4 P. leucopus and 5 P. maniculatus were inoculated by the intramuscular, intraperitoneal, and subcutaneous routes with an isolate of B. burgdorferi obtained from the blood of a trapped wild P. leucopus from Camp McCoy, Wisconsin. All of the mice developed antibodies to B. burgdorferi which reached a peak indirect immunofluorescent (IFA) geometric mean antibody titer of 10 log2 21 days post-inoculation. B burgdorferi was recovered from the blood of 1 P. maniculatus 21 days post-inoculation. One uninfected Peromyscus of each species was housed in the same cage with the infected Peromyscus as a contact control. Both of the contact controls developed IFA B. burgdorferi antibodies by day 14, indicating contact infection. To determine if B. burgdorferi was being transmitted by direct contact, 5 uninfected P. leucopus and 5 uninfected P. maniculatus were caged with 3 B. burgdorferi infected P. leucopus and 3 infected P. maniculatus, respectively. Each of these contact-exposed P. leucopus and P. maniculatus developed antibodies to B. burgdorferi, and B. burgdorferi was isolated from the blood of 1 contact-exposed P. maniculatus 42 days post-initial contact. These findings show that B. burgdorferi can be transmitted by direct contact without an arthropod vector.
Borrelia burgdorferi infection in Wisconsin horses and cows. Burgess EC. Ann N Y Acad Sci 1988; 539: 235-43 PMID: 3190095 Blood samples from Wisconsin horses and cows suspected of having clinical disease due to Borrelia burgdorferi infection were submitted by veterinary practitioners. All serum, milk, colostrum, and synovial samples were tested for B. burgdorferi antibodies by immunofluorescence. Whole blood, milk, colostrum, and synovial fluid samples were cultured for B. burgdorferi. Records were kept on the clinical signs of antibody-positive animals, date of sample, and location of the animal by county. Of the samples tested for antibodies 282/430 cow sera, 118/190 horse sera, 5/10 cow synovial fluids, 3/6 horse synovial fluids, 2/3 cow colostrums, 0/44 cow milk samples and 1 aborted fetus serum were antibody positive at a titer of 1:128 or greater. Of samples cultured 7/156 cow bloods, 2/35 horse bloods, 1/14 cow synovial fluids, 0/4 synovial fluids, 1/3 cow colostrums, 0/44 cow milk, and 2/10 cow urine samples were B. burgdorferi culture positive. For both cows and horses October and May were the two peak months for the number of antibody-positive samples. The most frequent clinical signs in antibody-positive horses and cows were lameness and swollen joints, but many also had stiffness, laminitis, abortions, and fevers. Not all antibody-positive animals showed clinical signs. These findings show that B. burgdorferi infection occurs in horses and cows and can cause clinical illness in some but not all animals. Infection in cows and horses occurs most frequently 1 month after the emergence of adult I. dammini. Because spirochetes could be isolated from blood, synovial fluid, colostrum, and urine, these animals could be important in providing an infected blood meal for ticks and bringing B. burgdorferi in direct contact with humans.
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beaches
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No doubt in my mind that Lyme/cos can be passed on via sex.
We already know Lyme/cos can be passed via breast milk and women with LD give birth to congential LD babies.
So what's the surprise here? Nothing for me.
Take precautions when you're of childbearing age. If you want to have children and you have a history of LD, do your research and take what you have to take to bring a healthy baby into this world.
If you're beyond those years with a healthy spouse, just enjoy life. That's all I'm going to say.
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Lymedin2010
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posted
This report & video on transmission is too good to pass.
That douche, Gary Wormser, speaks out on this too.
posted
What about through perspiration? I am thinking about a one person portable sauna being shared.
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posted
My question is, how common is it for Spirochetes to be found in your secretions? They can't even find any in my blood so I am having a hard time imagining giving it to my partner.
I always assumed it was safe, because it figured it was in your blood, or in your joints,CNS system. I would need to see more studies to show that it can actually live in the vagina and reproduce there.
I was always under the impression that it was transmitted via blood (tick bite) and from there over time, disseminates into the body. Hanging out in the mucous membranes didn't seem like a likely spot.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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Lymedin2010
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There have been studies where mice & dogs have been placed in the same vicinity & to at end one gave the other Lyme.
Spirochete blebs & cysts might get trapped in the skin & have been found in skin lesions...etc. I believe if there are large quantities in the blood, then you may be shedding them.
You cannot get it through contact, unless the fluid of one individual goes to the fluid of another (mouth, eyes, privates, & open wounds). Sometimes they can be respired in the lungs.
There is one anecdotal report of a Lyme infected woman crying on a man & the man subsequently developed Lyme within weeks. He is not too sure how exactly he got it, but he was absolutely vehement about getting it from this person. I drilled him well & I believe him. If I can find the link, I will post it.
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lpkayak
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Maia my llmd told me if i was on tx-even just doxy ketes in blood and body fluids would not be able to spread thru body fluids
I dont know how true it is but dr j knows how much abx to give pregnant woman so it diesnt pass thru placenta or thru breast milk
The abx dont easily get ketes that are deeper in tendons, cartilage, eyes etc. But in fluids they do
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Judie
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I like this person's analysis of the studies:
Part 1: Sexual Transmission Of Lyme Disease - Is There Evidence?
Lymedin2010
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Very good read, thanks.
From the mounting evidence of the spirochetes being present in the blood (within the RBC's mostly), it is quite easy to see how it can reach any part of the human body & how it can be sexually transferred.
The amount of the bacteria in the blood is all individually based, with some people showing little to no symptoms with widespread blood infection. This probably has to do with how efficiently they are able to filter out toxins, which can all change given time & continued damage from ongoing infection.
The spirochetes do not necessarily have to THRIVE in any particular tissue or infected area, they only need to SURVIVE in order to potentially re-infect outside the body. Cysts & blebs can potentially survive many different tissues, liquids, & solutions.
Given all the evidence of individuals harboring the bacteria for years at times and not showing any symptoms, we should be able to see how easily cross contact infection (via body fluid) can have an even longer latency period. Sexual transfer may not include all of the co-infections from the original partner & tick bite.
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GretaM
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I was reading a new publication from another LLMD, and this doc cited the studies, and also discussed in his experience with patients, it IS sexually transmitted between couples.
BUT, he will not treat anyone who does not have symptoms of lyme.
The theory is that it is probably quite common to transmit between couples, but only one has an immune system that cannot keep up. The other's immune system can keep lyme in check.
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Lymedin2010
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Thanks GretaM. Do you have a link to the publication?
Here is a nice link that talks about fibro/Lyme connection & it also mentions Burrascano's new blood culture test. So if he is looking towards the blood to indicate infection, you can buy a clue as to how easily it can spread sexually. Especially if it is systemically found in the blood plasma!!!!
I almost want to go back & check on my previous girlfriends, but I don't initiate this out of respect for my wife.
canefan17
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posted
Sorry if already asked. But my questions pertains to this and pregnancy. My girlfriend and I are planning on having kids soon and so we'll be talking with my LLMD of course... but is it wise for the girl to get on abxs (as well as me) if we're trying to have a kid?
My LLMD did say his daughter took abxs during her pregnancy.
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Lymedin2010
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Always good to listen to your LLMD, but I am sure not all of them are willing to prescribe for pregnancy.
Does your GF have/had Lyme? From the LLMD stories I have heard, it is beneficial for the mother to take ABX if she has or had Lyme.
I think the lady in Under Our Skin had Lyme & then she had no more symptoms, yet she still carried the bacteria & passed it unto her son.
Personally, I just could not get myself to have another if that was even an option because of Lyme. Mandy Hughes from Under Our Skin (the blonde) stated that she will not have children because of her Lyme exposure & this is besides how much better she looks.
Always talk to your LLMD about this & obviously make informed decisions. Best of luck!!!
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