posted
Does the alcohol kill bacteria? Is that why I felt like trash after I drank before i was diagnosed?
Could it be a herx?
-------------------- Lyme flare June, July, August of 2013. Diagnosed September 2014 Lyme, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, Mono Posts: 595 | From Texas Crossroads | Registered: Oct 2014
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Keebler
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posted
- Q: Does the alcohol kill bacteria?
No
Q: Could it be a herx?
No.
Q. Is that why I felt like trash after I drank before i was diagnosed?
No. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- Alcohol is toxic to the liver,
brain cells and
can cause serious spikes and drops in blood sugar.
The adrenal system also takes a huge hit.
Alcohol can also further irritate the lining of the stomach, which with lyme is usually compromised to the point of "leaky gut" and alcohol and stomach contents then can leak into the body from the gut. All kinds of trouble from that. All kinds.
The inner ear systems is also greatly affected by alcohol and that affects our balance, coordination, thinking, talking, walking and cognition when it's gummed up to any degree, so to speak. The inner ear is required for communication if we want sharp brain function.
Alcohol is a depressant to the central nervous system & to the inner ear system so that sets up a double clobber. And it gets even rougher because the inner ear system also tries to alert us that it detects toxins.
The inner ear is the first body system to be able to detect toxins in the body.
Now, most healthy people can handle small amounts in a reasonable fashion along with food. The liver works hard and hopefully, the brain cells are not too doused - for a healthy person.
With lyme, all body systems, organs, functions, tissue are affected and the body is on red-alert to begin with, even if the person is not yet really aware or diagnosed.
Many do seem to have this reaction to alcohol, even a small amount be their wake up call that something is very much off kilter with their body.
Sort of a classic symptom for lyme, really. And also why LL doctors are so very clear that alcohol should be avoided until well into a steady remission.
Lyme, itself, can cause liver disease. So this is a very important matter. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- PORPHYRIA is possible reason, too. It seems that many with lyme have stress / damage / malfunction of the liver's detox pathway Cytochrome P-450.
Porphyria can be a genetic consider where the liver is unable to manufacture the required enzymes (or enough of them) to metabolize metabolic waste from the body.
Certain classifications of drugs are to be avoided as if porphyria is "pushed" it can cause toxic reactions, even death in those with this condition.
And, other than genetically predisposed, there are some doctors who see that porphyria can be secondary or acquired from exposure . . . and especially in someone who may have too many toxins in their body for whatever other reasons.
Alcohol can trigger a dangerous porphyria reaction.
There are at least 11 kinds of porphyria and the testing is not perfect. There are many who are unaware until they have a serious drug or alcohol reaction.
There are also similar conditions but the bottom line is that if the liver is at all stressed or comprised, it just cannot process alcohol and that can cause all kinds of chain reactions for a person.
Lyme, itself, can cause liver disease. So this is a very important matter. -
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Keebler
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LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links. Porphyria detail here, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- I didn't have the energy to sort this out in my notes earlier. Still really don't but will try. IMO, the clobber from alcohol for those with lyme is primarily due to the toxicity of the alcohol itself in asking a body that is sorely unable to process it to do so.
Although, there may be some kind of spirochete reaction . . . I do generally admire the work of the Dr. M who is mentioned below . . .
I most certainly would not make the leap to say that alcohol is an agent to kill spirochetes and some of the commenters post seem to have gotten that as the oh, so very wrong, take home message. I'm sure that is not at all what Dr. M intends.
I am pleased to see that the blogger has really studied this puzzle . . . and even includes a lot of detail from some of my previous posts.
It's important work, to be sure to be very clear on why people should NOT drink with lyme. But it troubles me that is not the message some get. So I really try to keep a disconnect from any positive at all between lyme & alcohol. there is nothing positive at all.
The blogger, nor Dr. M say that, of course, but look at how readers interpret this (below the posting). Sigh.
I know all this is hard to understand so I asked Dr M in Canada why we can’t drink and this is how he summed it up: most alcoholic drinks have sugar and wheat and ingredients that spirochetes eat.
So they all come out and go into an eating frenzy. When they are active like this they put out toxins. Well these toxins make us feel “drunk” quickly.
Then when the alcohol hits your blood stream, it kills the spirochetes. Thus giving off the toxins from the dying chetes. So we have a herx reaction.
The reason it is so bad, is cuz alcohol crosses the blood brain barrier. So it kills them in our brains. So it pretty much explains why we get drunk so fast then have such a bad hangover ther next day.
. . . [further discussion and links for Articles Regarding Alcohol and Lyme]
end excerpt.
I do not necessary agree with what's stated there yet just wanted to add it to the discussion -
[ 02-05-2015, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
It also helps candida grow and that in itself would make you feel horrible.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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TF
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posted
Burrascano could not be more clear on the subject of drinking alcohol. Don't waste money and time on lyme treatment if you are going to drink.
See these quotes:
"There are three things that will predict treatment failure regardless of which regimen is chosen: Noncompliance, alcohol use, and sleep deprivation. Advise them to take a break when (or ideally before) the inevitable mid afternoon fatigue sets in (napping is encouraged)." (page 17)
"If treatment can be continued long term, then a remarkable degree of recovery is possible. However, attention must be paid to all treatment modalities for such a recovery- not only antibiotics, but rehab and exercise programs, nutritional supplements, enforced rest, low carbohydrate, high fiber diets, attention to food sensitivities, avoidance of stress, abstinence from caffeine and alcohol, and absolutely no immunosuppressants, even local doses of steroids (intra-articular injections, for example)." (page 20)
"CERTAIN ABSOLUTE RULES MUST BE FOLLOWED IF LYME SYMPTOMS ARE TO BE PERMANENTLY CLEARED: 1. Not allowed to get behind in sleep, or become overtired. 2. No caffeine or other stimulants that may affect depth or duration of sleep, or reduce or eliminate naps. 3. Absolutely no alcohol! 4. No smoking at all. 5. Aggressive exercises are required and should be initiated as soon as possible. 6. Diet must contain generous quantities of high quality protein and be high in fiber and low in fat and carbohydrates- no simple carbohydrates are allowed. Instead, use those with low glycemic index. 7. Certain key nutritional supplements should be added. 8. COMPLIANCE!" (page 27)
"DRINKS ALLOWED Water, seltzer, caffeine-free diet sodas, coffee and tea without sugar or caffeine, vegetable juices
NOT ALLOWED Fruit juices, regular sodas, and any drinks sweetened with sugars or syrups No Alcohol at all" (page 35)
posted
If beer and wine kill bacteria then eating half of a chocolate cake will also.
Beer and wine are like liquid sugar to lyme and co- infections. You are just feeding the beast is the reason you feel so bad later.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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Keebler
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- Most with lyme also have various problems managing blood sugar so, in addition to the most simple sugar of all feeding the bacteria (viruses & fungi), it also creates a glucose emergency that so often is not fully acknowledged.
And even one such "glucose emergency" can take days to balance back out - and can even cause permanent damage to the pancreas and other tissue. Damage can happen from either / both highs and lows.
Lyme can set the stage for diabetes, so when alcohol is poured in, that just adds fuel to a dangerous fire.
Dehydration, too. Alcohol dehydrates the brain. -
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Lymedin2010
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posted
Funny, I tested myself on alcohol and I don't get hit like others describe.
I get a little dizzy & then feel good and the next day I feel 3-5% better. So sometimes if I feel like crap, I take a shot to feel better the next day. Maybe the alcohol is killing some tertiary bug that is particular to me.
Go figure.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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Keebler
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- Please do not take such a risk. My thoughts are really made with concern for your body. Alcohol's push on the liver, alone, can fool us. That you get dizzy is a sign that it's poison to your body.
That you feel a tiny bit better the next day could be that the dizziness wears off by then.
So, the alcohol is not "Maybe . . . killing some tertiary bug that is particular to" you.
If you "feel like crap" so that taking a drink is the only way you have on hand to find relief, please look to expand the range of things that can offer pleasure without damage to liver cells.
We need outlets and pleasure, for sure. My comments are not about deprivation at all. Don't let the rush that may follow color preferred interpretations.
Alcohol is just not something that will serve someone in any state of illness. Whatever effects that offer limited pleasure can be found in other ways, really. -
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Lymedin2010
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Yea, I would listen to Burrascano, he would know best.
I just had to try. Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
Chemo is really bad stuff right? If alcohol really kills lyme, we know it passes the BBB right? I still wonder if the feeling crappy part is a herx?
I get my liver tested just because of the antibiotic load.
I'll give treatment five years. If I'm the same I'm going to gradually increase my daily alcohol intake.
-------------------- Lyme flare June, July, August of 2013. Diagnosed September 2014 Lyme, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, Mono Posts: 595 | From Texas Crossroads | Registered: Oct 2014
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Keebler
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- "If alcohol really kills lyme"
It DOES NOT. -
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beaches
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I don't think alcohol kills Lyme or any other TBD.
That said, IMO there's nothing wrong with an occasional toast!
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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Keebler
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- "3. Absolutely no alcohol!"
Above from Dr. B's treatment guidelines. Does not get much clearer than that.
"An occasional toast" could cost hundreds of dollars and much time in a setback (that may not even be able to be corrected) for someone who has not yet reached a good solid remission.
Lyme doesn't care if it's a birthday or holiday or if we need to celebrate or soothe. It will look for every weakness within us to get stronger.
Also remember that with any pharmaceutical, alcohol changes it totally. It's not the same drug with alcohol added.
Worse than Halloween candy for kids. It takes them a week to get back to normal, and that's for healthy kids.
Blood glucose changes can take a long time to get settled again. For them with candy, and for adults with alcohol, too, as glucose just shoots to the moon and drops up for a double whammy that is no easy repair.
Damage or even stress to the liver from a "night off" so to speak may not even be corrected in a week's time, or in a month. Or at all.
For some, even one drink can be a dangerous bet, with unknown odds.
We have only so many winning cards in our deck against lyme and in our favor. Playing the "occasional toast" card can cost more than just a walk on the Boardwalk. It could cost one the game if the dice roll the wrong way once that alcohol is inside the body.
There are many other ways to relax, unwind, celebrate, enjoy, join in a party, etc. -
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beaches
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posted
I know Keebler, I know.
But at this point in my life, if I get to share a toast during a celebration or have a nice sip of wine, I'm going for it.
Life is way too short to not indulge once in awhile in things we enjoy. Salute!
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Keebler
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- Suppose the question to ask is how many more months or years of fumbling around with treatment, how many more hundreds of dollars would a drink be worth . . . and that is still if luck is on one's side.
Is not a hug, a smile, a song, some joy not good enough to share in a celebration? Is not just telling someone how you feel about them not good enough to share in a celebration toast? -
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beaches
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I don't think a drink would cost months or years or thousands of dollars of treatment. My minor kids never had a drink and their treatment cost us thousands and thousands and thousands out of pocket.
Of course, hugs, smiles, songs, dance, toasts are good enough and then some!
I am just at a point in my life that if I want to to celebrate an occasion with champagne or a nice glass of wine I will do so!
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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Keebler
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- How about a toast with a nice vintage Elderberry Extract and sparking water in a classy crystal flute?
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