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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » What enzyme to take for Biofilms?

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Author Topic: What enzyme to take for Biofilms?
twinnick
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Hey all,

My LLMD wants me to start taking enzymes to attack Biofilms. He gave me a handout Bout them but I wanted to get your thoughts? What do you take? How long do you have to take it? Do you think it helps?

If you could provide a link of what product you take, that'd be fantastic! Thanks!

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desertwind
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Serrapeptase for me.
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twinnick
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Are the a combo pill protocol deal? Or are "enzymes" all combined into one pill and you just take multiple of those pills?

Is there a good brand? Are there cheap brands to avoid?

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Lymetoo
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Carol is the expert here. Go by what she said.

Buluoke is really good but more expensive than the others.

Here is one source of the serrapeptase:

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/doctors-best-best-high-potency-serrapeptase-90-veg-caps

Check Vitacost and iherb too.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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twinnick
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Thanks Lymetoo....so that link you sent me is just one pill a day?

I get confused on the dosing of some of these. I read how some people say they ramp up and end up taking a dozen or so pills a day.

IF that is true...the bottle in that link you sent me would last me about a week. $$$ Unless it is truly a one-a-day.

Again, thanks for the link. It seems to get good reviews.

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nefferdun
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Dr. S. in his blog wrote none of the enzymes work on biofilm because BIOFILM DOES NOT HAVE PROTEIN. Hypercoagulation is not the same thing as Biofilm.

"Hypercoagulation occurs when your body cannot keep up with the thickening of your blood. You are unable to break down the proteins that bind your blood cells together fast enough and this can result in an increase in blood pressure and the formation of dangerous blood clots.

These proteins can also bind to the walls of your circulatory system and prevent the efficient delivery of oxygen to your organs. Lumbrokinase keeps your blood thin by breaking down this protein so your body can absorb it." .

I took lumbrokinase, Boluoke and wobezyme for two years. Then had my blood examined by F Labs. I had substantial biofilm.

What I use that seems to be working for me is LipoPhos EDTA. It is a liposome encapsulating EDTA. Biofilm is composed of fat, magnesium and iron. As the liposome is the most essential fat required by the body and - if you are following the low fat diet - the biofilm will readily take in the liposome because it is starved of fat.

Then the EDTA is released where it binds with the iron and magnesium degrading the biofilm. EDTA also binds with heavy metals. If you do a google search you will find a lot of information about how EDTA degrades biofilm.

My PR is in remission - knock on wood. I did about 10 bottles of the LipoPhos EDTA. I need to start it again. It tastes pretty horrible but the effects are amazing.

You also need to attack biofilm with a low fat diet. I use fat binders - Proactol right now. You want to avoid meat - it has a lot of iron.

Cistus tincture is also very powerful against biofilm It kills the germs causing plaque so a side effect is very white teeth. Xylitol does the same thing but it is not absorbed into the blood (dogs do and it can cause an insulin rise that can kill them). Cistus is 100% absorbed into the blood.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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twinnick
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Well neffer,

That was kind of a downer, LOL.

So all this stuff about enzymes breaking down Biofilms isn't true?

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Lymetoo
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neffer... so is biofilm not the same thing as hypercoagulation? I would think they are different entities?

At any rate, most who have chronic infections have hypercoagulation and I would think that taking the enzymes helps?

twinnick .. I would take whatever it says on the bottle. I never took more than two pills a day of any of the enzymes.

--------------------
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twinnick
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A quick google search said that fibrin, which is comprised of protein, makes up Biofilms....

Now I am confused all sorts of crazy!?

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springshowers
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Its kinda sad the lack of education on biofilms but it just means keep reading researching and learning.
Its hugely important .

Listen to Neff. !!
Perfect info and exactly correct to my knowledge as well

Also same things have worked best for me and I would follow exactly what was said and use exact items and techniques.

Thanks Neff for sharing and educating.

I would advise too never using this forum for your education.
So many other resources and much more detail and accuracy when you read and research actual data and scientific information.

Dig deep into medical sites and research and doctors presentations and more.

It's out there and biofilms are a huge component to Lyme and many chronic infections and diseases

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springshowers
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Hyper coagulation is not same as biofilm
Two separate issues and topics.

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springshowers
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Biofilm defined

A biofilm is any group of microorganisms in which cells stick to each other on a surface. These adherent cells are frequently embedded within a self-produced matrix of extracellular polymeric substance (EPS). Biofilm extracellular polymeric substance, which is also referred to as slime (although not everything described as slime is a biofilm), is a polymeric conglomeration generally composed of extracellular DNA, proteins, and polysaccharides. Biofilms may form on living or non-living surfaces and can be prevalent in natural, industrial and hospital settings.[2][3] The microbial cells growing in a biofilm are physiologically distinct from planktonic cells of the same organism, which, by contrast, are single-cells that may float or swim in a liquid medium.


Coagulation ( hyper coagulation is thrombosis )

Coagulation (clotting) is the process by which blood changes from a liquid to a gel. It potentially results in hemostasis, the cessation of blood loss from a damaged vessel, followed by repair. The mechanism of coagulation involves activation, adhesion, and aggregation of platelets along with deposition and maturation of fibrin. Disorders of coagulation are disease states which can result in bleeding (hemorrhage or bruising) or obstructive clotting (thrombosis).[1]

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springshowers
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Treating hyper coagulation is useful and good and may help symptoms as it helps blood flow more normally.

Blood thinners for hyper coagulation are for treating blood that is thick and yes this disease causes blood fluidity problems.

Treating biofilm will causes herx reactions and is treating the organisms hiding in the biofilm matrixes which start to adhere to sides of veins and can over time build up like plaque

The biofilm structures have there own life support systems with various bugs and communication systems and there goal is to thrive and hide from immune system and anti biotics and anti infective substances.

They are very strong and smart and difficult to treat.

But biofilms are totally different and are the infections hiding in these biofilm homes they make. They even have tunnels where they suck in nutrients in one tunnel and create another to send waste out. They communicate ! They are alive communities that create there own shields and live inside there slime they create which can build and build and break off in little pieces at times spreading to another spot. But once they start to attach to a spot they like to grow there. It was studied at once point sometimes a community will stop creating life and disburse but they go to a new spot.

Think of it like a lake and the algae and slim that attaches to sides or bottoms of smaller inlets or rocks or streams where they can attach and find a home and nutrients to feed on.
While middle of lake runs clear.

They are alive organisms and just doing what comes natural to thrive and protect themselves.

It makes us stay chronically ill.

Thick blood is a symptom and blood getting thick and sticky and should be treated even with small dose aspirin daily.

Biofilm treatments are to expose the bugs and clear blocked veins and is a cardiovascular issue as it progresses as it can literally attach to veins walls and block blood flow with literal walls or cotton ball like structures and build up on walls themselves.

Blood thinning treatments will not dissolve biofilms.

Like the algae in the lake you have to kill the organisms.
And to kill them get through their slime. Then lake edges will clear and it will stop building and even take over the lake.

There are certain problematic algae that suffocates lakes and kills wildlife and they have to treat to get it back to balance.
There is a healthy amount that is needed too in a healthy environment. It's a balance.

We need to get to that balance and to get the hiding infections we have to dissolve biofilms and expose the infections to our immune system and treatments.

That's just short explanation.

It gets deep and kinda stressful when you realize the resilience and strength and smarts of these infections to live and hide.

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Brussels
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My lyme is long gone, but my naturopath says biofilms IN THE ARTERIES can block blood circulation too, and most people who have lyme has this problem.

I have very bad blood circulation to my hands and feet, that got WORSE during lyme. After lyme, the situation did not improve.

She suggested Rechtregulat to dissolve biofilms. Rechts is also known to thin the blood.

She is one of the most experienced naturopaths in germany, following very closely what dr. K. does. She teaches ART for many years.

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twinnick
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Wow.

Thanks for the info.

So in short, serrapeptase does NOT break down Biofilms?

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LisaK
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omigosh, I have no idea how any of you can know so much. my brain must really be done for. I have lost so much function and feeling dumber by the day. I guess I may have to accept that.

there is just too much involved in all this lyme world for me to handle! haha everytime I think I am getting a handle on lyme info something new gets thrown my way

I need a personal assitant

--------------------
Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen

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twinnick
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How much LipoPhos EDTA do you take? How do you know you have taken it long enough? Do you just take it for the duration of our treatment?
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twinnick
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What about Tinidazole? I have read that-that can break down Biofilms....is this true?
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lymeboy
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Twinnick, according to Eva Sapi's research, Tindamax is very effective at breaking down Biofilms. I took Tind. for a long time, and I hold it responsible for a large part of my recovery. I'm not in remission, but I'm way better than I was. Full time job, able to exercise... my life is manageable. I do not take abx anymore. Herbs and Salt-c at this point.
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twinnick
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Are Tindamax and Tinidazole in the same ABX family?
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lymeboy
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Tinidazole is the same drug. Tinidazole is the generic name for Tindamax.
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twinnick
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Tinidazole seems to be the wonder drug!

It attacks spirochete, cysts, and biofilm?! Goodness, I wish I would have started this a long time ago!

Do many people have good results on this?

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lymeboy
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It isn't without its risks. It may cause cancer in Mice I think. It's also an antibiotic, which you need to supplement properly. But yes, Tindamax has been very effective with Lyme AND co-infections. Most docs pulse it, though I did take it every day for a little while.
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twinnick
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quote:
Originally posted by lymeboy:
It isn't without its risks. It may cause cancer in Mice I think. It's also an antibiotic, which you need to supplement properly. But yes, Tindamax has been very effective with Lyme AND co-infections. Most docs pulse it, though I did take it every day for a little while.

What do you have to supplement it with?
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springshowers
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I think flagyl is more affective than Tin
It though isn't used as much due to people not tolerating it well
It treats cyst forms as well is anti parasitic and pics away at biofilms.
There is a difference in biofilm dissolves and busters vs antibiotics that pic away which get in through tiny canals etc to kill infection in which will in turn reduce biofilm.

Flagyl I barely could tolerate until I had IVs and it was most amazing results for me
Since then I tried oral and couldn't tolerate it until I got it in benzoate form and compounded.
It's like getting a pure form of a drug ! Clean !
Zero problems on it and though if u take a flagyl tablet I about die ! Not all feeling bad is herx. Be careful of some drugs and forms and fillers and binders. !
It took me awhile to know the difference and I pushed through some horrible times on various peaks being told I was herxing

Now that I know my instincts were right and now after I have had normal herxes I know that some drugs are built toxic that may not be the actual active ingredient.

Listen to your body and intuition.

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Brussels
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Rechtsregulat is not really enzyme. It's got good bacteria for the gut and loads of enzymes produced by these different veggies and fruits. It is more a complete type of live food than anything else.

It will do much more than only providing one enzyme or another, that is why people feel herxy. I can use Rechts for a cold, for a wound on the skin, for stomach wounds. Now for the biofilms.

Many people start feeling bad probably due to herxing, too much dirty stuff coming out, or even candida herxes, I suppose.

It is an amazing product, I find.

People that cannot stand fresh leaves and vegetables (only cooked ones) are similar to the ones that cannot stand Rechtsregulat, in my feeling.

Their bodies are in trouble (how can't a GI tract digest fresh vegetables?), their gut is somehow in big trouble, and that is BASICALLY why people are sick, because their guts are sick.

It's not by avoiding fresh veggies that the gut will heal, but by cleaning and rebuilding the flora and gut walls again.

The logic with Rechts follows the same. There must be a reason (or many) for the herx feeling. Whatever Rechts do is profound. It is something that builds the body. The biofilm treatment is just one consequence of taking Rechts.

This product is sold ALL over here in Germany. At pharmacies and most natural food shops.

I am always amazed to see how many old people, with little income, come buy Rechtsregulat. It costs a lot of money, I find, but these retired old guys still spend their money on Rechtsregulat. It's a sort of life insurance, I suppose?

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tickbitt
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I went looking a while ago for biofilm breakers and came up with the following:

serrapeptase
nattokinase
banderol
cats claw
lumbrokinase
EDTA


Eva Sapi reports that in-vitro, the artificial sweetener stevia is an effective biofilm breaker.

Of the list above, stevia, cats claw, and nattokinase are pretty cheap. The others are pretty pricey.

One other note: These (except stevia) are enzymes and need to go right into the bloodstream. Take them on an empty stomach. If you take them with something in your stomach they'll help break down your food instead of your biofilms.

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jennyfromtheblock
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hi, not sure I am as qualified at this point to comment. I'm only 3 mos into treatment.

They have put me on Biofilm Defense..it's a NEC propriatory enzyme blend?

The flagyl comment caught my eye. three weeks ago they put me on flagyl with the doxy and as awful as it is, and I only take it for 2 days in a row...I have had the biggest change with it.

However, I take it weds/thurs and I am out of it until Fri. Then Sat is pretty good day

I learned online to take the flagyl with potato chips. It cuts the nasty taste.

I do dread and love weds/thurs at the same time. I know it is breaking up the cysts.

--------------------
celiac dx 2012
pancreatic neuroendocrine tumor dx 2012
lyme dx 2/14
poss igm wb, neg igg wb - Igenex/CDC

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emdrae
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Does anyone else take high doses of Tindamax? I'm supposed to be taking 1800mg/day of Tindamax for 30 days, but only can make it up to 1200mg (compounded capsules).

Also, is it safe to take serrapeptas or ImmunePlus (PRX) with Tindamax? I'm concerned about combining things and getting interactions.

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