I think my biggest problem is the bart. more so than the lyme. I also have a little bit of mycoplasma as well.
I guess I am just not happy with the current bartonella drugs out there right now (rifampin & levaquin)
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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kreynolds
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15117
posted
I take Cats Claw....
You can do a search on it....
I think it hits the Lyme as well, but I know for sure it hits the Bart pretty hard.
-------------------- Diagnosed CDC + 6/2007
Quest: + IGG Bands 18,23,39,41,58,66 and 93.
Quest: + IGM Bands 23,39
Quest: + Bartonella (B.Henselea & B. Quintana),+ Babesia, and + Mycoplasma and Lyme-Induced Addisons Disease
+ Biofilm blood test 12/2010 Posts: 1185 | From New York | Registered: Apr 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I've taken cat's claw on and off for years (both kinds). While it helps relieve some symptoms, I have not experienced anything special to write home about. I also know of two women who used solely Samento - and good diet - for over a year (they have lyme and co.) and they are still just as ill as before.
It would be best to see a LL ND (naturopathic doctor) who is also a member of ILADS, so they have all the science behind this.
She is an ILADS member and a ND (naturopathic physician), so she has knowledge of the unique nature of the spirochete and what is required but also knows all about supportive techniques.
Alternative Treatments for Lyme Disease and Co-Infections
If you have a LL ND near you, that would be best so that you can have individualized care. Acupuncture is also very helpful as a support - it can help the herbs work better.
[ 06-27-2015, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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kreynolds
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15117
posted
Wow Keebler you are a "link slinger!"
Its nice to have such knowledgable people here to help.
Most all your replies are indeed the exact answer someone is looking for!
Thanks to Keebler!
-------------------- Diagnosed CDC + 6/2007
Quest: + IGG Bands 18,23,39,41,58,66 and 93.
Quest: + IGM Bands 23,39
Quest: + Bartonella (B.Henselea & B. Quintana),+ Babesia, and + Mycoplasma and Lyme-Induced Addisons Disease
+ Biofilm blood test 12/2010 Posts: 1185 | From New York | Registered: Apr 2008
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
NutraMedix Hottunyia is my current thought on Bartonella options.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Is this a new product for Nutramedix? I don't see it on their site.
Thanks
Posts: 191 | From Ontario | Registered: Feb 2006
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pamoisondelune
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11846
posted
Here's what Selma posted: QUOTE
Some people are writing me to ask what I took for bartonella. I'm just copy-pasting what I wrote in Buhner's forum. Remember this was 'created' by myself only using energetic testing (kinesiology). I'm not a doctor.
I suffered from chronic bartonella since 2005, got reinfected recently in May with acute bart.
I thought I got rid of it, but yesterday I went to my lyme doctor who also does energetic testing (ART) and he couldn't find it initially. I told him, 'check if they're not hiding'.
He couldn't find borrelia, nor bart, nor mycoplasma, babesia, intestinal candida, nothing. He then checked at the back of my skull and then found finally: bartonella, borrelia and ehrlichia. Nowhere else in my body, he could find tick-born pathogens.
He was amazed to see how well I got, he said he thought I was going to fall downwards after the recent reinfection. He said he's NEVER seen someone with chronic lyme getting better so fast after reinfection like I did. I feel great, I'm hiking and kayaking again!
My killing protocol was designed this time 100% by myself, only using kinesiology.
Anyway, I'm still not rid of bart, still taking things for it, which I'll add in the end of this copy-pasted post. I had it all over my body, joints, muscles, now it's reduced to a small part of my body.
-------------- Here's then my bartonella protocol, aproximately:
- phellodendron, decoction 5-7 minutes: gets bart and many other pathogens
- artemisia annua decoction (separate from other decoctions): about 3 teaspoons if I remember well: cook it for a while (about 5 minutes?): it gets bart.
- astragalus test good against bart: I took decoctions and/ or Planetary formula (about 1-2 pills a day)
- bee polen: gets bartonela (plus borrelia cysts and bab's cysts); I took if I remember well, about 2-3 tea spoons a day diluted in water/ soya milk
- lonicerae caulis, decoction 7 minutes: gets bart and babesia (I took it in the very end only)
- KMT program 1
- frozen garlic: 2 -3 a day (can't remember)
- amargo (rain-tree): gets bart, babesia and borrelia: I think I took about 2 "00" capsules a day.
- immunomodulators that may help: cats claw, jap. knotweed
- isatis, folium & forsythia test good against bartonela, but I didn't take these this time because phelodendron + frozen garlic + lonicerae were good enough (I didn't need to add isatis/ forsythia).
Remember that I was my own 'doctor', so no one prescribed me these stuff, I tested amounts by myself and showed to my doctor who told me: "Go on". He re-tested for me (ART) the new herbs I never had taken before, phellodendron tested very good. I'm skinny and very sensitive to herbs/ medicine, so 'normal' people would need more, I guess.
Very 'constant' herbs in this second reinfection for me were (including other pathogens, not only for bart though):
- cats claw, whole herb - Japanese knotweed decoction - phellodendron - gardenia - gervao (rain-tree)
These herbs tested good for a longer period of time (I'm now still on cats claw, knotweed and gardenia). Andrographis didn't test good, only for a few days!!! I took it more than a year for my first borrelia infection and it kept testing good, but not this time!
Selma -----------
Now (end of August 2007) what is testing against bartonella that I'm taking is:
- Japanese knotweed decoction
- phellodendron decoction
- eleutherococcus in powder (2 teaspoons a day): gets most of the infections indirectly (it's a profound tonic to the system)
Selma ------------------ I'm just pulling this thread up as people keep asking me what I did for bartonella.
I attacked bart 3 times. First time was by the end of 2006, but I didn't win the battle (I was using Rizols and other stuff I forgot, it must be here in lymenet though). It didn't do the job completely until May 2007, when I was awarded new bart re-infection....
I naturally fell sick very fast, because the tick bite came fully infected with ALL pathogens that my doctor tests energetically. My doctor said he has seen that before, so I didn't win a troffee.
Then I decided to go on an emergency attack as I naturally got scared, as I felt quite sick again and that's what I wrote here up in this thread.
I got rid of bart then chronic + acute infection with this treatment above. It took sometime, but not too long as I was expecting. Then I went into remission of lyme and co-infections for about 4 months.
But bart went away AFTER babesia was gone. I always need to get rid of babesia first before I get rid of anything else, as I get fully symptomatic of babs and that knocks me down. That's what I did, and my babesia protocol is also written here somewhere (under "alternative babesia herbs" or so).
Then about November, after not sleeping more than 4 hours a day for a month due to a job I was doing at home, I relapsed lightly. From borrelia, bart, and rickettsia.
But it was very easy to get them again under control, I even didn't address bart specifically, I was more concerned with rickettsia as it was the only thing that was giving me symptoms (heart). But fortunately, it was also very short lived and again, I'm on about a month or more symptomless from lyme and co-infections.
My only treatment now is a preventive treatment: 1 capsule astragalus AM, 1 capsule cats claw AM, then some supplements just once a day like: chlorella, propolis drops, calcium, magnesium, Vit D, trace minerals. Sometimes milk thistle tests, and I take it, but it's about 2-3 times a week only. That's all.
I even got a chronic skin fungal infection under control that I got for more than a decade (pre-lyme), every winter. Still not sure it's really gone, as I'm still on foot baths, but I'm symptomless from it (except for a dark purple skin on previous local of infection on my hands and toes).
I'm doing no anti-candida diet anymore, taking alcohol socially, and I believe, even if lyme comes back because I do stupid things (like not sleeping for a month), I feel it won't be a big deal anymore IF treated fast. If untreated, I'm pretty sure I'll fall very sick again as I still don't trust my immune system.
My whole bart treatment didn't cost a lot as all these Chinese herbs cost very little in bulk. It's just time consuming, difficult schedule, but as for cost, it's reasonably inexpensive.
If anyone is willing to try the herbs, please try to read about them before and/or get someone to test them energetically. That's what I would do. ---selma ------------------------ Up, as more people asking me what I took for bartonella.
It seems it worked as I don't think I fought bart like I did during this time. This was then my last fight with bart, that I remember.
I might have gotten it 'testing' one time or another by my lyme doctor, but assymptomatic and anyway, it went dormant easily.
The time I had to use all these herbs here was definitively what made my bartonella load very weak or dormant. ---selma --------------------------- UNQUOTE
Posts: 1226 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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pamoisondelune
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11846
posted
Here are some other herbs from other people: QUOTE:
As much as I felt Cumanda did help with my Bartonella some, it didn't sit well with me. I think it's ok short term, but I did not like it long term. I did well on Smilax.
Heidi N ------------------
Thanks for reminding me about the many properties a single herb can have. Glad to hear it works for Bartonella.
We took Smilax. It was one of the best things I took as far as resulting in shrinking a Bartonella rash. It did also appear to help reduce symptoms in general. I would definitely recommend it. Many herbs both kill and mop up; its the beautiful thing about them. That is why I use them and not antibiotics.
Heidi N
In Buhner's book, he says that smilax is anti spirochetal yet also binds endotoxins and lessens herxheimer reactions. This almost seems like a contradiction to me.
In trying to reconcile it, do you think maybe your herxing tipping point would just be higher? Any comments appreciated.
Thanks ------------------------ Deseret Biological Bart remedies gave me the biggest herx. It's the only bart treatment that has given me a herx. steelbone -----------------------
I don't have Bart, but I'm trying to help someone who does...
These are the natural treatments that I've heard work well: Chinese herb Houttuynia (HH) sold at www.hepapro. com (I'm sure other site sell it) Monolaurin Grapefruit Seed Extract Cod Liver Oil Resveratrol Stephania Boneset tea
Regards, Lydia (NOT MD) ----------------------
In Lyme-and-rife@ yahoogroups. com, Paul <paul@...> wrote: > > My LLMD was treating my Bartonella with one of Byron White's herbal > tinctures called A-Bart. I'm not sure what's in it because I believe he is > trying to either patent or build up his manufacturing. My LLMD uses many of > his herbal tinctures for Lyme and co-infections. Here's an interesting > article co-written by Byron that mentions this effect which apparently is > known as retracing in NP parlance. It also has some good info on hyperbaric > oxygen, ozone and FIR saunas for killing and detoxing: > http://www.prohealt h.com/library/ showarticle. cfm?id=5187& t=CFIDS_FM > > - Paul ------------------------
Cinnamon oil and sandalwood oil both have activity against Lyme, and probably co-infections as well.
Cinnamon oil can be an irritant on the skin, and would probably have to be very diluted before ingesting, probably a 2-5% instead of a 15% dilution.
People do ingest cinnamon oil all the time as flavorings in toothpaste, teas, candies, and other foods.
A lot of the essential oils are originally from food or herbs but they are much, much, more concentrated, which is why they need to be diluted before using, either topically or internally.
Lemon essential oil is from lemon zest, which is a commonly used in flavoring foods. Peppermint oil is from mint leaves that are used in tea. It is important to know how to use these oils, but once you do, it opens up a whole range of possibilities with treating Lyme and other infectious diseases.
I think it is sad that people as a whole don't know more about the power of essential oils. People are all stressed about stockpiling Tamiflu for the bird flu, but I think essential oils are far more likely to be helpful if an epidemic like that breaks out than Tamiflu, which may do nothing other than make some drug companies rich.
Again, it is important to use these oils properly diluted because they are strong.
I don't use Young Living oils, but I do think that some of the books Gary Young published are useful, mainly because he seems to have translated a lot of the information available in French on essential oil research into English.
I prefer to use wildcrafted or organic oils when possible, especially for ingestion, but I have honestly safely ingested the oils from the health food store as well. I have been my own guinea pig, though, so I try to be more conservative in my advice to others about their situations.
I am finding Bay Laurel essential oil and hydrosol to work fairly well in combination with the other oils I have used for Bartonella. It gets the lymphatic system moving, and it has activity against gram negative bacteria.
I am quite healthy, but have still had some itching burning sensations in the skin, a few swollen lymph nodes, and some odd rashes, and taking the bay laurel now seems to be clearing all of these things up more, and making me mildly herxy, which I haven't been in a while.
Farah -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- UNQUOTE
Posts: 1226 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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nefferdun
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Member # 20157
posted
According to Schaller, who wrote the book on bartonella, the best herbs to treat bart are houttuynia (HH from Zhang), clove bud oil, samento and cumanda. I think Japaneese knotweed also helps. You have to take these herbs in a much higher dose than what is recommended. Zhang recommends taking 1 HH capsule 3 times a day which Schaller says is a "very low dose". One must try to interpret what a "very high dose" would be. I communicated with someone who consulted with Schaller and he was told to take over 20 capsules a day. He said he was afraid to do so and was only taking 9. Finally he took close to 20 capsules and began to recover, feeling better than he had in years. I am building up my dose and also take samento, cumanda, clove oil, and reserveratrol. When I used Zhang's herbs exactly as he recommends I did not recover and had to go back on abx. i am told that Zhang is raising the potency of his HH capsules after consulting with Schaller. Everyone needs to adjust whatever they are taking based upon weight and tolerance. I would start low and work up but if you don't feel anything at all, it is not working. You either need to herx or feel better, not stay the same.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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canefan17
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Member # 22149
posted
So people are saying samento/cats claw hits bart.
Is that still true?
Funny because Buhner is pro-Cats Claw but ever mentioned it having effects on bartonella.
What gives?
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
bump
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Keep in mind the links were posted 5 & 6 years ago so some may be out of date by now. Some authors have newer books so do check for those. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Stephen Buhner's new book on Bartonella (2013) lists the following core protocol:
- Japanese Knotweed - EGCG with quercetin - L-arginine - Cordyceps - Sida acuta - Red root - Milk thistle seed (standardized) - Hawthorn - Rhodiola/ashwagandha combination - Isatis/houttuynia/alchornea combination - Pomegranate juice - Vitamin E
He writes:
"The core protocol is oriented around reducing the cytokine cascade that bartonella causes, portection and normalization of the endothelial lining of the blood vessels, protection of blood cells, protection of the heart, portection of the spleen and liver, support of the lymph system, and immune support protection.
Please understand that if you do these things, the organisms cannot continue to survive in the body.
The use of specific antibacterials is not essential. However, one of the herbs in the protocol, Sida acuta, is a very systemic, broadly active antibacterial.
Several other antibacterials will be suggested if you truly desire to approach the disease through the use of antibacterial substances. All of them will have some degree of activity against bartonella organisms.
Nevertheless, the most effective approach for recalcitrant bartonella is not bacterial."
-------------------- I appreciate all your replies. If it takes me a while to respond, it is either because I'm too sick or because I am unable to log in. From European servers, Lymenet is very frequently inaccessible for days at a time ... Posts: 235 | From Europe | Registered: Jul 2012
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canefane, you wrote, "Funny because Buhner is pro-Cats Claw but ever mentioned it having effects on bartonella. What gives?"
Buhner sees Cat's Claw as immune support (to increase CD57 cells). As antibacterials he now relies on Japanese Knotweed and Sida acuta.
[ 06-27-2015, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Nula ]
-------------------- I appreciate all your replies. If it takes me a while to respond, it is either because I'm too sick or because I am unable to log in. From European servers, Lymenet is very frequently inaccessible for days at a time ... Posts: 235 | From Europe | Registered: Jul 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Nula: I realize this is 5 years old but ...
canefane, you wrote, "Funny because Buhner is pro-Cats Claw but ever mentioned it having effects on bartonella. What gives?"
Buhner sees Cat's Claw as immune support (to increase CD57 cells). As antibacterials he now relies on Japanese Knotweed and Sida acuta.
And Houttuynia
-------------------- 13 yo DX PANS/Tourette's/Asperger's/ADHD treated for Igenex positive bartonella/IND lyme with 2 years of abx treatment. Weaned off abx April 2013 at 80% improvement. Continuing with Buhner bartonella/babesia protocols. Aug 2014 99% improvement. Posts: 265 | From Canada, Ontario | Registered: Jul 2013
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
Nula, many thanks for the excerpt from Buhner's book about Bartonella.
Did you guys see what I used against Bart above? It was not DIRECTLY against bart, but more like turning around bart, like Buhner suggests!
That is why you need a multi herbal approach, not a single herb. You don't need killers!!!
The only problem is to tune all these herbs around bart. I do think cats claw helped me, but maybe just because it helped the immune system and weakened borrelia!
Borrelia without bart is much weaker, and vice versa. Bart without borrelia, is MUUCH WEAKER. In general.
Isatis and houttunia, I also used, but probably they were testing for babesia, in my case.
You can see I list isatis in 2007 against bart (post above), and also the use of Japanese knotweed against bart back in 2007, much before Buhner published his book on bart.
People that do not trust muscle tests, should trust them!!!
One herb that certainly hits bart is phellodendron, not cited anywhere above. You can bet this helps, as it was one of my main herbs.
these chinese herbs, if you do decoctions yourself, are SO INEXPENSIVE, you can treat the whole family for a year just with a few dollars.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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