posted
How much time does it take for lyme to change from spiral to cyst? cyst to L-form? and then back again? I think I read somewhere that it can change from spiral to cyst "immediately" but somewhere else said a couple of days?
TF
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posted
When I got to my final lyme doctor who cured me, he had me stop my amoxicillin for 1 week to have the lyme come out of cyst form.
Then, he hit it with amoxi and flagyl both. It worked.
So, that shows that one week is sufficient to get most lyme to change from the cyst to the spirochete form.
When this doc found out that I had been on amoxicillin only for 2 YEARS, he said, "Congratulations! You have succeeded in getting all of your lyme into the cyst form."
Sadly, I knew he was correct. This is the mistake many doctors make--giving the patient only one antibiotic at a time.
I wasted 2 years taking amoxi alone. This is called monotherapy. Lyme can evade any one antibiotic at a time. So, monotherapy always fails.
So, my story shows the timeframe for lyme to come out of cyst form and back into spirochete form.
By then hitting it with both amoxi and flagyl, the lyme had nowhere to hide. The flagyl kills the cyst form and the amoxi kills the spirochete form. So, no matter what form the lyme changed into, it was still killed.
I was on this combo for 2 months and then my doc moved on to treat the coinfections. My body was able to get rid of any remaining lyme disease.
I credit my Burrascano style weightlifting to boosting my immune system so that I have never relapsed.
It is now over 10 years since I completed my treatment and I am still symptom-free, with the same life I had before lyme disease.
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Keebler
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- Q: How much time does it take for lyme to change from [spirochete] to cyst?
Yes, immediately. As soon as the spirochetes detect antibiotics in the body, a rebellion begins.
With the very first dose of antibiotic: Some spirochetes may be weakened (maybe some killed but they put up a big fight so it's not that easy);
some may literally spring deeper into the body tissue (even bone) where many will go into their protective cyst form to evade antibiotics and wait it out.
While in the cyst form, spirochetes can multiply so by the time cystic form opens (when it perceives no threats) the spirochete load can be much larger than when first infected.
This is why TF's post [and ILADS' & Burranscano's approach] regarding combination types of Rx / treatment & rotation treatment - & pulsing matters so very much.
Spirochetes also hate heat and vibration and these will also cause spirochetes to burrow deeper and go into protective cyst form to "wait it out" so to speak.
The heat reaction is why only LOW HEAT sauna is recommended, not the hot regular kinds. And that heat can cause heart & other issues for many with lyme, too. Not good: hot baths. Good: warm, cozy heat that comforts and does not cause residual payback.
That vibration will also cause spirochetes to react (violently, I'd say) may also be why some really feel so ill with the vibrations from heavy beat / heavy bass music (even if it's miles away) or even the vibrations from fans, cars, traffic, etc.
Although, with lyme, the inner ear, cardiac rhythm & adrenal exhaustion issues also make it hard to tolerate vibration & loud or boisterous events - sometimes even soft sounds will carry enough vibrations to cause a gut twisting uneasiness . . . or even agony.
As spirochetes perceive ANY threat, they can spew out more toxins on their way to either burrow more deeply / go into cystic form.
[ 08-25-2015, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Marnie
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triggered by an antibody binding to the OspB surface protein
are damaged and dying forms of the bacteria and do not represent a separate form of the organism."
Wiki.
Our antibody to Bb's OspB is defective!
It should have been the antibody IgG1K and prevented histamine release.
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Lymedin2010
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Bb can transform in seconds to harsh conditions. This is a video of my blood & a spirochete is spiraling/undulating for a while & at one point decides to coil into a cyst (at time 9:20 in the video).
Phoiph
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posted
TF...
After your week off of monotherapy (before you started the combination), did you have worsening symptoms?
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TF
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Phoiph...
I did not experience worsening symptoms during the week I was off all meds.
In the past, at my doctor's direction, I would stop meds to see if the lyme was gone and in 2 weeks I was a basket case, mentally and physically. I was back to square one each time.
So, I was definitely fearful when the new doc told me to stop the meds for a week. But, since I had never relapsed that quickly before, I agreed to the week off.
I had to trust my lyme doctor! It worked!
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Phoiph
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Thanks, TF...good to know...
That seems to be a common pattern with many people using antibiotics (i.e., they may start having a resurgence of symptoms after two weeks off of antibiotics).
The reason I am interested, is that people often question whether I have actually been cured via mild hyperbaric, or have only suppressed the Lyme and sent it into cyst form.
Once I became well, however, I have been without my chamber on many occasions (once for over 5 weeks straight) and not had any symptoms of relapse. I have also been under tremendous stress this year, and have done very well.
I think it is important to compare the protocol histories of people who have become well for common practices. Although our means of becoming well were very different (as I became increasingly more ill on antibiotics), the thing we had in common was that we both oxygenated our bodies (you, via weight lifting, me, via mild hyperbaric).
Oxygen is not only the enemy of Borrelia, it also triggers many healing reactions in the body, and vital cellular functions cannot take place without it...
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TF
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Well, I just want to point out that it took me months to work up to a 1 hour weightlifting routine.
I started out doing one bench press with an empty bar and one leg lift. That was it. I was so weak I could barely walk down the stairs to get to my weight bench.
So, for the first few months, it could not have been oxygenation that helped me. I believe that the Burrascano protocol (high dose combinations of antibiotics) killed my germs and my weightlifting boosted my immune system which mopped up whatever lyme was left and kept me from relapsing.
I agree, however, that weightlifting gets oxygen deeper into cells and so can help kill lyme.
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Phoiph
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For the record, it took me months of mHBOT to get well also...and I was only able to add gentle exercise very gradually.
It is interesting that Burrascano writes that one can't get better without exercise; because in part, as you mentioned, oxygenation is strengthening and restorative to the the immune system.
It counteracts the hypoxic/immunosuppressive state that Borrelia likes to keep the host in so it can thrive...
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Keebler
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- While this thread has widened from the main topic (of the cystic & other forms of lyme),
the discussion about movement and strengthening is very important -- yet, it's important to also note that . . . .
For some, due to tendon, joint or tissue issues, lifting even light weights - grasping anything - may be not just impossible but damaging.
For some, too, a severe exercise intolerance may be involved. For those folks, some explanations, support ideas and what can help:
Topic: post exertional malaise & Exercise Intolerance
something like Qi Gong or Tai Chi . . . or gentle Pilates can be very helpful as good non-aerobic movement, each with a variety of major benefits. Expert advice not just from someone trained in a method but also someone who is very lyme literate. If they do not know about lyme, they may advise dangerous actions (that is, for someone with lyme / TBD).
QiGong, mood - 40 abstracts -
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MichaelTampa
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Phioph -- can you give more details regarding what exercise you used during your recovery ... I am wondering if you also did the strength training such as weightlifting, or if you truly got by just with mHBOT and mild/stretching/walking type exercise.
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Phoiph
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MichaelTampa...
I did not do weightlifting during my recovery (although I had done so pre-Lyme). I started with yoga and yard work...then gradually added walking and running short distances over months (I had been a runner pre-Lyme).
Nutrition/diet is the 3rd piece of the puzzle...
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Lymedin2010
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And for me the opposite of exercise is true. I was better health wise a few years ago & began exercise. Very slowly & gradually & I took every other day off as well. I felt better initially with exercise & I thought that this might be it. I was excited needless to say & I developed muscles where I had not in years.
As my exercise regimen progressed I was able to do less & less because I developed more pain & more symptoms & it just weakened my body. Towards the end of the exercise regimen I could barely breath because my shortness of breath & lack of O2 was just too much.
So the exercise gave me more pain, pronounced symptoms, new symptoms & shortness of breath. I had nowhere near the level of shortness of breath, only sporadic, but after 2-3 months the shortness of breath put a stop to exercise. I plowed through the pain but the shortness of breath was impossible to overcome, which then made my body vibrate, feel dizzy, & burn all over.
So I stop exercise & the more pronounced symptoms & shortness of breath improves. I let a few weeks go by & start again with the same result. I stopped & started this a few times while on different abx/herbal protocols.
I then started again recently having to endure even more pain & symptoms now, but whilst taking natural herbs. The same result after 2-3 months & every single joint in my body hurts more than it did before I started. When I stop the joint pain goes down, but the bacterial occupation & damage is more pronounced because of the exercise.
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Phoiph
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Lymedin2010,
Amongst other things, when the mitochondria in the cells are not functioning properly (common in Lyme), there can be a build up of waste/toxins and imbalances in the cells which can cause pain and fatigue upon exercising.
I could not have tolerated exercise for this reason when I was very ill, so it was fortunate that mHBOT provided the oxygen to me in a different way.
I gradually became more and more exercise tolerant as I became well, and now am back to running, etc.
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Lymedin2010
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That is great to hear & know, but personally I could not afford mHBOT after spending so much money on treatment already.
How many sessions are you taking & at what costs?
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Phoiph
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I became well with my own home chamber...and have started a grassroots program to help other people access mHBOT more affordably. There are ways!
So I don't further hijack this thread, I would suggest reading the mild hyperbaric thread (all 12 pages if you can), so you can read about others' progress as well:
I can also send you my website link that describes my "odyssey" and more about the project...
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Keebler
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- Great posts here, really. Phoiph, I copied your HBOT detail to the "exercise intolerance" thread so more will see it.
And, I checked for oxygen in relation to Qigong and found at PubMed: QiGong, oxygen - 14 abstracts
Lymedin2010 . . . Hope there is some way to access use of a unit.
Yet, there are other ways to get some increase in oxygen with even gentle movement. It may not be as up there with HBOT yet certainly could help to some degree.
Even deep diaphragmatic breathing sessions several times a day helps. It works lying down, too. Any gentle moving of limbs in a Qigong sort of style, well, you may not take off in flight but there will be some added movement of oxygen within. -
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Phoiph
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Thank you...:)
And yes, gentle exercise, like yoga, is additionally helpful because it is all about the BREATH...
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