Jordana
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Member # 45305
posted
Hate to say it. I love Stephen Buhner and have gotten a lot of relief already from every other herb but I held back on the Cat's Claw because it's got quin in it.
A lot of my symptoms started last January after two rounds of fluoroquinolones and for a while, before I started homing in on Lyme, I really thought I'd had a serious flox reaction. All the nerve sensations and disc problems and so on and so on all started about a month after Levaquin.
I haven't had a bad reaction to anything in Buhner's books so far; so I started with his regular recommendation, full dose.With every other herb; no herx -- just felt better.
After ONE day of CC I woke up in pain from head to toe - especially in my neck at c4/c5, all through my shoulders - then what almost felt like a rotator cuff tear. Joint pain in my knees -- my knees have never hurt; hips, jaw.
!
Buhner wrote specifically that quinovic acid is not the same thing as a quinolone and that any association was a rumor. I actually didn't touch the Cat's Claw until I read that.
It's been about three days on my back and I stopped all treatment this reaction was so bad -- thinking it was a herx, maybe the big herx I was owed from all this treatment.
But maybe not.
Crap, did I get floxed again?
This is so frustrating barely knowing the reason for anything that's happening to me.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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posted
I was floxed by cipro 1 year ago and am still healing. Since then, unfortunately I have been hesitant to take cats claw because I have read it can lead to some tendon damage, and those who are previously flowed are more susceptible. I would take ionic magnesium and order magnesium cream or oil to rub in the skin. Also take vitamin c or other antioxidants as well as vitamin e. If it is a herx, you would be fine in a few days, if it is damage then stay on a tendon healing protocol and continue with large amounts of magnesium and antioxidants. Good luck.
Posts: 172 | From ohio | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
Buhner seems to understand the chemistry of these things pretty well so when he states that the quinovic acid in Cat's Claw is not the same as what's in fluoroquinolones I'm inclined to believe him.
From my experience with most of the herbs he uses I think that they really depend on your own immune system for their effectiveness. This is in contrast to Rife and essential oils which seem to kill stuff more directly and your immune system is called in for cleanup.
Buhner himself states that the dosage needed is dependent on immune function, smaller doses are sufficient for people with stronger immune systems. The exception to this is Cat's Claw, I believe the research shows that it directly boosts immune function.
If you started taking full doses of all the herbs without any herx, I'd say you either don't have a high bacterial load or your immune system is very weak/suppressed. Taking a full dose of Cat's Claw would boost your immune function a lot, potentiating a lot of the herbs you were also taking creating a major herx. I'd say this is more likely what happened as your tendons and joints are probably reservoirs of Lyme.
Posts: 131 | From CO | Registered: Jul 2015
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Jordana
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
This really is confusing. Maybe both scenarios are possible. People who've been floxed have a lot of Lyme symptoms and I've read that they're more susceptible to tendon pain from CC.
Maybe not a rumor, maybe just a more likely side effect for pre-floxed people.
OR it was a herx. My immune system isn't terrible, at least by measurable markers. I've had my immunoglobulins tested and they're ok- I have enough lymphocytes and so on. But I've never had a real herx before either, I don't think.
I really believe in Buhner and trust he knows what he's talking about, but maybe it's different if there's prior susceptibility. I've searched high and low for the basis of Bryan Rosner's statement that quinovic acid actually even *is* the real precursor to quinolones and I can't find it anywhere.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- It might be neither herx nor flox but just the way lyme works. Out of the blue, any body part or system can just be clobbered. This often happens upon awakening to realize that "oh, ****" moment.
There are so many variables - and sometimes, no apparent one at all.
It may be that a particular Rx or supplement is just not suited to an individual or the amount is different.
If something seems likely, good to back up, move away and assess the situation of course. But connections may not always be what they appear.
Often, the day after a little too much activity - or us having moved a chair we'd forgotten about . . . too much sun, too much heat (even too long of a bath)
too much of a certain food or too little food - or water shifts.
Too many scents, new fabrics in the home, a new (or even old) vinyl shower curtain that has off gassed with warmth but just never struck out before now . . .
It can happen for no reason at all other than that is just the way lyme & TBD work their erratic ways.
It's nice to be able to observe patterns sometimes with these things so that we can minimize this clobber but sometimes we just have to tend to the situation to support what's on the plate that day.
And, often these "clobbers" can last for quite a while. Or they can move about willy nilly.
All bets are certainly off with this, for sure. One thing certain: tender loving care is always called for. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- You say:
"A lot of my symptoms started last January after two rounds of fluoroquinolones and for a while,. . . "
Do you mean January 2015 or last month?
fluoroquinolone damage can occur even many months after stopping but I'm not sure for how long such as a full year's time. Detail here can help:
Fluoroquinolones (Levaquin, Cipro, Gemifloxacin / Factive, etc.) - LINKS set -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Jordana
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posted
Yes, a year ago. I really thought that was what was wrong with me when all this started. I asked for a Lyme test back then immediately -- negative, they said.
Over time this all kept morphing. I had terrible stomach problems along with the nerve issues. Four discs bulged at once, one herniation; in Jan last year.
Floaters.
It was all pretty intense and immediate. But it started with the worst occipital headache I've ever had in my life and parotitis. I got the Levaquin for what I thought was an ear infection and had tendon pain right away, but I kept pushing through it because I was worried I had meningitis.
Things have been breaking on me ever since.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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bluelyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 47170
posted
Are you still on the mino/tini..? .i was hoping you were finding some relief..i agree with project and keebler that the cclaw probably is not the issue..it could be the Levaquin but likely its the lyme..the same story happened to me with bactrim ... i think you got it on the run and its going to hide in tissues that are immunoprivledged,synovial fluid, nerves ,brain etc...
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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Jordana
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posted
Still on mino and tini, but it's a really low dose. I figured I would help all this along with Buhner herbs.
I was doing great actually til the Cat's Claw. In fact, I was getting a little cocky. I even had it in the back of my head -- (maybe I don't have Lyme, maybe it really is persistent coxsackie/quin poisoning/other).
I'm still only a little better after a week.
Getting there but I'm a little lost. Falling into the twiilght zone.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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Silverwolf
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9196
posted
Hey <<<<< Jordana >>>>>,
I have sprained very easily, damaged tendons,lots of permanent tendinitis[both ankles ,right wrist] for years.This happened well before I knew about LD.
I have taken Cats Claw since 2006,and get miserable w/o it. I take a break from most everything for about a week, every couple months.
It may be that the Lyme itself is causing tendon issues,it seems to love joints,and connective tissue, organs,you name it.
It is different than the dangerous ABX like Levaquin. Maybe, I think somebody else said this too, It could be a herx.
Can you start w/ even less than your normal dose, and pulse it,maybe you could see if it is a herx that way? I hope this is making sense.
Go slowly and carefully with building up the dose, also remember what is working for one person doesn't always work for another. You may have to stop it for awhile and then try it in a few months.
<<<<< Jordana >>>>>, extra hugs and prayers going up for you.
Jus' Silverwolfi
-------------------- 2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain. [ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94 Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08 Posts: 3581 | From SE Idaho | Registered: May 2006
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Jordana
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posted
. Hi Silverwolf
Thanks for the suggestion
Yes that's what I'm going to try. I stopped ALL treatment for a couple days except for the teeny tiny dose of abx I'm taking and I'm going to start treating again tomorrow.
I could have also been herxing from other stuff I'm taking but I've gotten to the point that I'm taking so much stuff I couldn't tell what was doing what. I've got joint pain everywhere now. Go figure .
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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Judie
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Member # 38323
posted
You have to be very gentle with your system after being floxed.
Floxing is tricky. It can make you sensitive to so many things and cause flox-like reactions, even to non-flox things.
I'd avoid the Cat's Claw.
I'd even be cautious of the tinidazole. It causes peripheral neuropathy and made my Achilles tendon hurt like crazy.
I healed from Lyme and friends without herxing like crazy. Herxing was just not the right way to go with my my body.
Good luck!
Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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bcb1200
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Member # 25745
posted
Just because something has quinine in it doesn't mean you can get floxed by it.
Fluoroquinolone toxicity is real, but only happens from the fluroquinolone antibiotics. Herbals shouldn't do the same thing.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3134 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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Judie
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posted
After you've been floxed, you can become sensitive to so many things. The immune system can go into overdrive. A lot of people with MCS are flox victims and can't tolerate a lot of meds, or herbs.
You can have flox-like symptoms when your body just recognizes something as being similar after being floxed.
I've had two doctors tell me this who are familiar with floxing.
Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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Jordana
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posted
It's hard to know what's happening.
All I know is that one day after a full dose of Cat's Claw I woke up with head to toe pain, especially in my shoulders, neck and lower back, and suddenly my knees.
It's been about a week and I'm a little better but I still have pain in places I did not before.
One thing people have to realize about Quinine is that some people can be extremely sensitive to it to the point of getting something called Hemolytic-Uremic syndrome and actually dying from it.
I actually have a genetic propensity towards this syndrome anyway and when I was a kid quinine would give me a headache.
Once you're sensitized to the quins, I'm not sure what happens. I'm bummed about it but I won't take CC again since even if I work up with low doses I'll have no idea if the pain I'm feeling is herx or more flox.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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Silverwolf
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posted
Hi <<<<< Jordana >>>>>,
Praying you feel better soon, this LD and Co's is so frustrating to deal with.
<<<<< Judie >>>>>, You brouthg up a good point, about beig extra sensitive after getting floxed. I think Lyme makes us more sensitive to meds and chemicals as it is,and a floxing would worsen it even more.
I know, after statin problems,I'll call it statin poisoning, I still have a lot of issues.
Jus' Silverwolfi thinkin'
-------------------- 2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain. [ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94 Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08 Posts: 3581 | From SE Idaho | Registered: May 2006
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Jordana
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Sorry to hear about your statin poisoning.
It seems the more involved a person gets with pharma the worse off they are ;(.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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Jordana
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posted
Rethinking this theory.
I started cc again. Two drops, my whole body started to stiffen up. But it's not tendon pain, it's more like fibromyalgia or something.
All over achy, neck and shoulders of course.
The reason I tried it again is because it's the only Buhner herb i've left out, and because I keep reading people say the opposite of what I said -- cc makes them feel a whole lot better.
I think I've got a herx on 2 drops of plain old cat's claw. Given my response to tiny amounts of minocycline, who would be surprised.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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Judie
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posted
Quinines can cause way more than tendon pain. It causes peripheral neuropathy, fibromyalgia and pain all throughout the body. When I first got floxed, it felt like there were steel rods in my limbs and my skin was being poked by hot shards of glass.
Just do a google search for fibromyalgia and fluoroquinolones. I got refloxed by a quinolone, you don't need the fluoride to be floxed.
Good luck.
Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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Jordana
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posted
Yeah at first I thought I got floxed and that was the end. Then I realized I had Lyme. Now I'm thinking I got floxed AND I have Lyme.
I took Cipro for years but that *last* time I took Levaquin was when my nerves started literally popping like popcorn in my arms and legs. It's true Lyme can cause all kinds of problems but it was sudden and violent and scary. I haven't heard anyone with Lyme describe this with onset but I have read stuff like that from floxed people.
Well. Buhner says to replace cc with teasel and eleuthero.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
keebler is right. levaquin and cipro are bad for me. my damage occurred months later. I couldn't even walk up stairs. luckily I didn't need any surgerybut it was a long time before I healed.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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Jordana
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posted
I would love to think that all the truly insane nerve symptoms I experienced had to do with FQs. I could write a book describing just one month of sudden onset, totally terrifying neuro stuff. My whole body just flipped out.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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randibear
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posted
mine was like needles stabbing me and then I'd gethorrible cramps in my feet and legs. youcould a ctually feel large knots in the muscles. talk about pain....
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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extra hugs and prayers going up for you. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
. Hi Silverwolf 
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