posted
Ok so over the years I have determined that a 100% skim milk diet, which you allow nothing else and no breaks over time depletes both Lyme and Morgellons as long as you can stay on it. I buy organic valley lactose free skim milk. It has to be skim, any sizable dairy fat feeds them just enough to be symptomatic. My discovery of this was accidental but my theory as to how it works is multi pronged. First of all there are numerous studies about how a skim milk only diet in animals can reduce parasitomology. Secondly, and I think this is key. Milk contains virtually no manganese. Lyme disease needs manganese to survive and actually lots and lots of it. It is my opinion that Lyme and Morgellons are linked. Over long periods of time, the deficiency of manganese from a milk only diet makes the bacteria really weak. So like I said try it, but if you do try it, only skim milk, no cheating with other foods. I can drink over a gallon a day when its my only food. Whenever I do this, by day 5 most of my symtoms are gone. And by the way, yes do your antibiotics as well. This isnt a cure by itself.
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Catgirl
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So are you only drinking milk (no food)? What happens when you start eating food again?
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
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I inevitably get worse. I am convinced if I stay on long enough, like maybe a month or more it would permanently cripple the Lyme along with all of the antibiotics I am on. The cravings get really bad after the 2nd week. The lyme will urge your body to seek high manganese foods. Its quite remarkable because every time I do this, by day 5 my symptoms are erased. No joint pain, no brain fog, I can even forget I have Lyme, which has been a constant nightmare for 10 years.
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Tincup
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Sorry that you are desperate to come up with answers, but personally I'm not sure this is it.
You said.. "I am convinced if I stay on long enough, like maybe a month or more it would permanently cripple the Lyme.."
I'm concerned it could cripple you too. True, I've never met anyone who was on a skim milk only diet for a month, but it doesn't seem like a real healthy thing to do.
Brussels
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If I understood well, you are in fact fasting (with milk only)?
If yes, it could be that fasting itself makes you feel better.
Once I was desperate as nothing was working, and I felt crap. I felt bad after eating, so I also decided to stop eating.
Next day, I felt MUCH better. In fact, fasting boosts the immunity in an astounding way, I found out later (when I started reading about fasting).
I stayed 10 days fasting with teas, and by day 3 or 4, I started taking ONE fruit a day (because I went jogging, and that was a bad idea, as my sugar levels were too low for jogging).
with the one-fruit-a-day fasting, I reached again remission from lyme (my infection was not too strong, but persistent, chronic).
When I started eating again, I unfortunately relapsed again (but less bad than before fasting).
Eating MUCH less makes the immune system kick in.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tincup: Sorry that you are desperate to come up with answers, but personally I'm not sure this is it.
You said.. "I am convinced if I stay on long enough, like maybe a month or more it would permanently cripple the Lyme.."
I'm concerned it could cripple you too. True, I've never met anyone who was on a skim milk only diet for a month, but it doesn't seem like a real healthy thing to do.
Can you run this past a LLMD before trying it?
My LLMD knows trust me. And he tells me it doesn't surprise him at all and that I should try it if inclined. By the way I had to address the point that a milk diet could be harmful.
This is complete and utter farce. Milk is basically a fully nutritionally complete food as it is meant to be.
It has sufficient protein, it has sufficient glucose and you can live off of it indefinitely if you were so inclined. Really the only thing you need provide is vitamin C which I supplement.
By the way, and let me make this clear, I did not say and am not saying this is a cure, I am on a whole host of antibiotics which is doing the curing, what I am telling you is that it weakens the lyme and reduces symptomology.
Which is an added benefit to the antiobiotics cause. And nor am I or was I ever 'desperate' for a solution. My Lyme is largely controlled I am just pointing out additional things I have picked up over the years through experience.
You may not 'think its it' with just my assertion, but try it and see what happens. Because 'it works' substantially for me every single time over the course of a week.
**edited so more members are able to read this..... Please break up large blocks of print for those unable to read them.**
[ 11-07-2016, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Lymetoo ]
Posts: 173 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Brussels: If I understood well, you are in fact fasting (with milk only)?
If yes, it could be that fasting itself makes you feel better.
Once I was desperate as nothing was working, and I felt crap. I felt bad after eating, so I also decided to stop eating.
Next day, I felt MUCH better. In fact, fasting boosts the immunity in an astounding way, I found out later (when I started reading about fasting).
I stayed 10 days fasting with teas, and by day 3 or 4, I started taking ONE fruit a day (because I went jogging, and that was a bad idea, as my sugar levels were too low for jogging).
with the one-fruit-a-day fasting, I reached again remission from lyme (my infection was not too strong, but persistent, chronic).
When I started eating again, I unfortunately relapsed again (but less bad than before fasting).
Eating MUCH less makes the immune system kick in.
I've noticed the same about fasting and wholeheartedly agree with the healing properties you mention. I have experienced this too. But this I wouldnt necessarily call a fast. I am drinkin about between 1600 and 2100 calories of skim milk a day. So that is a lot of calories for a fast. I think this one works by the nutritional profile of milk but thats just my theory
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Jordana
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Sounds like Ray Peat.
I am really interested in his ideas but I haven't seen them work in real life for too many people long term.
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quote:Originally posted by Jordana: Sounds like Ray Peat.
I am really interested in his ideas but I haven't seen them work in real life for too many people long term.
I read Ray Peat religiously! Amazing you picked that up. That was the first time I went full bore and tried this.
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Jordana
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Kinda figured. I'm glad it helps. I could never do it because all the milk and OJ made my stomach churn. But I believe it theoretically helps with metabolism.
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I understand. If you do ever retry, try without the OJ and with lactose free milk. I have found Organic Valley lactose free 0% works the best for me. I get solice from the fact its organic, and they have already broken down the lactose using the enzyme. For fruits, I mash up frozen fruits like mangos with the above milk using a nutribullet. But for this particular lyme effect, I have noticed you should try to do skim milk alone. It is expensive. About 5 a half gallon and I buy 14 half gallons minimum a week. But 70 a week isnt too terrible.
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Jordana
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It's hard to be a Lymie and a Peatarian at the same time. For example it's hard for me to take probiotics given what he says about them. And then there's the exhortation to give up dairy and sugar for Lyme. I go crosseyed from all the conflicting rationales.
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quote:Originally posted by Jordana: It's hard to be a Lymie and a Peatarian at the same time. For example it's hard for me to take probiotics given what he says about them. And then there's the exhortation to give up dairy and sugar for Lyme. I go crosseyed from all the conflicting rationales.
Exactly. So I cant say which is technically right, but from ample trial on both methods, the Peat model works better for me, and can actually reduce symptoms as Ive mentioned. Now that could be 100% elimination of all PUFAs because Ive done that too, or it could be that dairy per say isnt an aggrevator at all. As I said, my strongest opinion on why this is works for lyme is that milk is virtually absent of manganese, but thats just my theory. Also with milk, lysine is maintained much higher than Arginine which is good for most diseases.
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Jordana
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Except babesia!
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quote:Originally posted by Jordana: Except babesia!
Good point! In the beginning I used to worry about how I took my mepron, when I do this I just take it with this milk diet and just say what the f (LOL Risky business). I figured over time that my babesia symptoms dont return and I can swallow that yellow stuff without thinking about it by now.
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Brussels
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Me too, like Jordana, I can't take milk without feeling miserable...
Lactose free or not, milk doesn't feel right for me, but we are all different.
I do think that you are doing a fast, or something like a fast. I was also on a few calories (one sweet fruit a day), and my body understood that as fasting.
After those 10 days, I got really amazed on the HEALING power of my body. I thought I was far from strong, or that my immunity was so OFF, but that fasting experience showed to me that I was wrong.
Do you know macrobiotic diet? I know a woman that got cured from late stage cancer only with that. They eat very slowly, only a few things a day, and rarely mix any food.
Only veggies, very few a day, mostly cooked, but ONE AT A TIME.
They chew a lot, and eat super slow, in a certain order. After doing that, you feel less hungry, and eat less and less.
But that makes the body stronger, and the immune system stronger, and then some can fight bad diseases like that lady I knew (she is STILL alive, in her 80s now). Her cancer stopped in the 1980s!!
I guess that just diminishing the amount of things we ingest, is already great for the body. It gives the body a rest. Digestion is very hard, demands too much energy from the body, specially when you mix different things.
Once you eat only 2, 3 different things a day, things go better.
Eating just one thing, gives a BIG rest to your body. It will have more energy to concentrate on other things than digest, like on detoxing and the immune system.
Of course, if you are eating poisonous thing, not, but if you feel you can digest well something, why not?
Do you notice you are detoxing better ? (more clear mind, darker urine, stuff like that?)
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Much better. Peat talks about tremendous shock response with pufa removal and/ or a milk diet, and I find this to be 100% true. My head is so clear, and nothing bothers me. It makes you tremendously resiliant to things. Also notice considerable reductions in joint and back pain. Like almost none after a few days.
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Jordana
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Well you're dramatically lowering all endotoxin with a diet like that. This as opposed to the "detox" idea from Lyme world.
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Brussels
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Great, Christopher! I'm crossing fingers for you.
Fasting was what first reactivated detox for me too (or my urine is almost like water). I mean, no need to take stuff to move lymph, gut, liver: only stopping to eat!!
My lyme really went to remission, no more symptoms, in 10 days. I was not HORRIBLY bad, but I was chronically bad, with brain fog, fatigue.
Day 3 I felt so good I decided to go jogging!!! Bad idea. I crashed in about 10 minutes jogging. Literally a bad crash. I then started reading about fasting, and no one is supposed to go jogging during a fast.
We feel good, but we have no carbs, no sugar enough to be consumed in harder physical exercises.
My mind got clearer pretty fast too, which was an amazing experience. No medicine, nothing: just stopping to eat. Then I started eating a fruit a day.
I ate the fruit after that bad jogging experience. I felt ALL the energy coming back soon, then decided to go on with the fasting experience, but consuming one single fruit a day.
It's not only the milk, I believe. It's also the mere fact that you are giving your body a rest that reactivates many systems: detox and immune system.
That experience showed me HOW MUCH ENERGY we need to digest and process the food, then throw out food garbage. It's an incredible amount of energy.
That digestion energy, if spared, can be used to fight pathogens and clean the body!
I wrote to Buhner and he said fasting is a great tool to boost immunity and cleaning the body.
Few people with lyme use that technique, but I do find it a good tool.
I'm EXTREMELY thin, so I never thought of using fasting to heal. (I'm trying to reach 91 pounds, but can't...!)
I thought fasting would kill me, that I wouldn't be able to stand up from weakness.
What a surprise it was: stopping to eat made me stronger, cleared my mind, my sleep was deeper, and it even put lyme in remission.
Lyme symptoms came back slowly after re-introducing food though... but it was easier to deal with lyme with herbs, supplements, homeopathy again.
It sort of re-booted my system!
Before that fasting, nothing seemed to be working.
Keep us informed!! How long can you last on that milk diet?
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MannaMe
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Brussels, how long did you fast? Are you saying you only ate 1 fruit per day and nothing else?
ChristopherJ, and you are only 'eating' fat free milk? Don't you get lightheaded?
How could someone with a blood sugar issue do a fast like this? My hubby has to eat regularly or he will get lightheaded. He always tries to eat protein or fat with a fruit / sweet food to avoid a drop in blood sugar.
This sounds very interesting, but I don't know how he'd manage to do it. Maybe some people can't fast??
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Brussels
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MannaMe, I'm not an expert in fasting... You gotta read more on your own before deciding.
I know Buhner is a great fan. I never had any interest in fasting, because of my low body weight, and because I thought I needed food to fight lyme (when lyme was active).
The problem was that I felt, at a moment, nothing was working (herbs, homeopathy, lyme treatment). I was foogy, tired, and nothing seemed to work. And on top, I didn't feel hungry, I just kept eating as a habit.
After eating, I didn't feel great, like we should feel. I felt food was bad, and decided to skip dinner once. Next morning, I felt somewhat better. So I said, I will skip breakfast and lunch.
That evening, I felt SO MUCH BETTER, that I decided to continue on my fasting. I was taking only teas, no sugar added. Black, green, herbal teas (no killers, just common teas).
By day 3, I felt my lyme symptoms were clearly disappearing fast, my head was so clear, my energy level so high, that I decided to go out jogging (in the hills!!). No kidding.
Big mistake: people fasting are not supposed to do physical exercises, as they have nothing to burn (specially as I'm SUPER SKINNY).
That was when I decided to READ about fasting, and then to take a pear or an apple a day, plus my teas.
Yes, I spent then 10 days on total, maximum food: one fruit a day. I SWEAR that ALL my lyme symptoms disappeared by then. I didn't feel weak, nor sick, my urine got so dark as i had never seen before.
I went into total detox mode through fasting, and that is why, I suspect, my body could fight lyme.
The problem was that when I reintroduced foods (slowly) again, after day 10, some lyme symptoms started to come back. But when I took herbs and did my own treatments, they worked again.
I think fasting rebooted my system. It made me super hungry in the morning (I never had hunger in the morning my whole life), and very hungry for lunch, and absolutely NOT hungry in the evening.
My whole eating habits changed since that first fasting. It has been more than 10 years ago.
I did that fasting again about 3 times. I listen to my body, and I decide to go on fasting when I don't feel food is helping, or when I feel lethargic. I don't have lyme any longer, but I fight candida sometimes, specially in the winter.
That is usually when I go on fasting (just a fruit a day). Some people do juice fasting (like one veggie juice, or veggie + fruit juice), or just eating / drinking ONE thing a day (like Christopher is doing).
------------------------------------------------- As for low sugar, the more I read and look around me, the more I'm convinced that ONLY people who used to consume some SUGAR ( a lot or some sugar) gets low blood sugar.
If your body is used to eat sugar, and you stop it, you'll get that at certain hours.
The feeling is awful, I know some people with that. They believe they need sugar, then continue taking sugar, but then, their problem NEVER ends.
Two teaspoons of sugar in the blood kills a person. That is why the body gets desperate when we consume sugar and produce insulin, try to convert sugar into fats as fast as it can etc.
Because sugar is extremely poisonous for our cells.
If you get used to take a coffee with sugar in the morning, for example, your body will get used to that and prepare next intake of poison (sugar) BEFORE you take it next day.
This is only because your body wants to save you from death (literally), so it will already put insulin out to prevent that rise in sugar. That can happen with a fruit juice, even (too much sugar, too fast).
I can live without added sugar or juices (which I do). My consumption is very low (only through fruits, very dark chocolate sometimes, I never add any sugar to my food / drinks, and never take juices).
I never get low sugar levels, then.
when I was younger, I used to take some sugar, and I did have some episodes of shaking, light head.
Except the day I went jogging while fasting. It felt awful.
I know quite some diabetic people on prescription drugs: they also can get that low sugar problem (my aunt almost died once, she lost conscience, fell, hit her head, couldn't talk for hours...).
What you could do, is just stop for ONE DAY and see what happens. Some people have stomach aches, etc. I had nothing.
I asked Buhner about that, he said that I chose the exact good moment for fasting!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Hi all, I'm new to this forum and still need to post an intro, but had a question on fasting, so thought this thread might work.
Ive seen so much on the benefits of fasting (Valter Longo's work especially), Ive wanted to do it for a while. I have chronic CPn and likely Lyme and co infections too, but not proven yet.
I know its not ideal, but could it be ok to take a break from antibiotics for like 7-10 days whilst fasting? (in this case doing a fasting mimicking diet)
I dont think the spirochetes / chlamydia would be in a growth state when there's no food around.
And since i have symptoms which look like the beginnings of parkinsons or lewy body (im only 31)... i really think my brain and immune system need all the help they can get. So dont want to live without this powerful tool of regenerating them, for the next 6-24 months. (google Valter Longo and see his results on regenerating the immune and other systems, including the brain!)
Right now im just on roxythromycin, so thought it would be good to do a fast before i add the rest of the antibiotics.
Ive done a 5 day fasting mimicking diet 6 months ago, which is since ive been having symptoms, and was fine, but realise things are different now im on the roxy.
I obviously will be running all this by my doctor first, but wanted to hear other experiences. Thanks!!
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Brussels
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I guess stopping any drugs or treatment is an individual choice.
My experience with fasting is that it can be extreme: too much detox starts happening, and that ALONE is hard to manage.
here in Germany / Europe there is a clinic that takes people for fasting, and even with years of experience and all the support, for some people, detox reactions can be still extreme.
I can't imagine people on full fasts PLUS drugs. Maybe people are strong and can stand that, but do not put me on that list.
I hope your physician has experience with fasting to guide you a bit. If not, he will discourage you, probably.
I never really follow physicians to 100% - I follow mostly my head / intuition, and only LISTEN to what physicians have to tell me, but then decide ON MY OWN, because I know how my body reacts in special ways...
I did fasting quite a few times, only once I did a full fasting, the other times it was a one-fruit a day fasting.
once I fasted, most critters become inactive, most symptoms go down. The only disadvantage about fasting is that you can't do it for long.
That is why now I'd rather do a raw food diet instead of fasting.
It works in my case as well as fasting, without a lot of side effects, and still, I get all the nourishment my body needs.
I know not everyone can do raw food because their bodies have been messed up for too long with cooked and industrialized foods, so they don't even have the enzymes able to digest raw foods in great amounts.
I always feel great eating raw, never stopped eating fruits and raw veggies my whole life, so I guess, I got the enzymes to do that... I know though a lot of people who CAN'T even take a small amount of raw veggies or fruits without problems....
I wish you good luck, let us know what you decided to do!!!
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Brussels
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I also wonder how Christopher J is doing now concerning skim milk 'diet'...(?)
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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I agree, its a powerful intervention and hence can also be damaging. If I do it, it will be off the drugs for sure. Its a time when the body starts eating itself and regenerating, so introducing drugs into that process would mess everything up I'd imagine.
I also think some experiments of mine in the past with "intermittent fasting" lead to very bad results for me personally, due to other factors, a steroid nasal spray i was on being absorbed, etc. Periodic / water fasting is very different to "intermittent" fasting, anyway.
This is the researcher that got me interested in fasting. Its exciting stuff. Ive emailed his lab and they said to wait till you finish antibiotics. However... they probably dont know about Lyme and how long i may have to be on antibiotics !
posted
No offense but this sounds like some bs, not everyone could benefit from this, in fact I would get crazy inflammation and weight gain because I can't digest lactose.
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Brussels
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JB, yep, I don't know about Christopher either, if he's going well on his skim milk diet or if he dropped it for good ...
I try to keep away from milk too, specially cow milk...
Sort of never was able to digest cow milk, and the pasteurized form of it looks to me more like junk than food, with denaturalised proteins, plus casein, lactose that are allergenic / hard to digest...
I wonder if any form of pasteurized cow milk could do any good to anyone, too, but I'm always open to read about other people's experiences.
As we are not made equal, there are many factors that may play a role in our health...
But fasting is something I think can do wonders.
I enjoyed the video from OzLyme. It is interesting that the researcher said that he thinks one can activate STEM CELLS just by fasting.
Amazing stuff!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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It is indeed amazing. I think its the most powerful and frankly, completely natural, way to regenerate our bodies we have available to us. It's completely unnatural that we would be surrounded by food our entire lives and NEVER take a break. So the body NEVER gets a chance to renew like it used to
The most exciting part is regenerating the immune system to look more like that of a younger person (theyve proved this now).
However... for it to regenerate, you first need to kill off a lot of old cells, and Lymies have low immune function already... so it seems risky in many people.
But hopefully the temporary lowering of immunity would be offset by the fact that the bugs are also starved of fuel, and would be dying themselves. This kills most bacterial infections, however horrible nasty Lyme and chlamydia and other co infections, which have multiple life stages, can jump into a "persisting" state and ride out the starvation conditions. The... f---kers!
But theyve shown that in MS (a disease frequently triggered or frankly caused by, in infection, it seems) the patients do very well on a fasting mimicking diet. It dramatically helps them.
Ive read a fair bit about fasting (before i realised I had TBD, and realised should be focussing there) and have been in contact with a few researchers about it. Happy to continue the discussion as i think its fascinating. I should start a new thread, though, instead of hijacking this one...
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Brussels
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Ozlyme, do you know exactly how to they do that fasting mimicking diet? I'd like to read more about it.
Don't worry about the immune system. Even if the photo of the guy after fasting looked awful, he did exaggerate!!! Few people would go that far.
You can barely see any clear visual body changes after a 10 day full fasting (at least, I couldn't).
The body goes in saving mode. From the 2nd day of full fasting, I started having MORE energy, my mind started CLEARING, I felt CLEARLY better than 1st day.
By the 3rd day, I thought I was going to be cured, for good. I felt so good, I needed to go jogging (mistake).
So, in my case, there was an almost IMMEDIATE boosting of detox AND immunity. I did not LOSE immunity at all, but on the contrary, all critters that were alive at that moment stopped being active during the 10-14 day fasting (I don't remember the exact number of days)...
From day 3, I ate one fruit a day, so it was not full fasting, but pretty much like one.
I don't think that you starve the critters, and that is why they diminish (as in MS, these people are fully infected in their nerves and brains).
Nope, I do think that what happens is that the body finally has time to do what it wanted to do, but couldn't.
Eating occupies a lot of place in metabolism, it takes our bodies a lot of energy to digest, then clean the mess.
Stopping to eat is to give the body a break, a rest. So it starts doing what it is supposed to do. It's like waking up again, rebooting the whole system.
I didn't know I could detox through lymph and kidneys, as my urine had ALWAYS been clear, almost like water color, barely any smell, since I remember peeing!
But since that FIRST fasting (I think I just did 4 fastings until now), my urine stinks like it is supposed to.
It's like fasting taught my body how to detox.
I particularly am NOT afraid of fasting, despite my very low weight. I'm very thin, had always been.
Fasting never damaged my body, on the contrary, I always recur to fasting when I lack ideas, on what to do to improve my body.
If you know more info about the fasting mimicking diet, I would love to read more about it. The guy said something like 1000 calories per day or so for a couple of days??
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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So the fasting mimicking diet isn't really a "diet" you can do yourself, its really just a 5 day medical intervention that comes in a box. They are carefully designed foods that provide some nutrients (fat mostly) and vitamins, but your body doesn't register as "food." If you google "ProLon" you find the product.
I know it sounds scammy - "you have to buy this diet." But they produced this for cancer patients on chemo initially, so it had to be specific. And because people kept running into trouble doing it on their own.
The specific nutrient combinations in the diet are the ones that have been studied under lab conditions. Also, Dr Longo doesn't make a penny from the diet or the book, and the profits go to research, so I believe his labs results.
Oh and the guy in that picture who looked awful, wasn't fasting - he did TWO YEARS of calorie restriction. He is one of the pioneers of calorie restriction and effects on lifespan and human health. However he is also a warning against taking it to the extreme - he developed ALS, and they think this may have been related.
However fasting is very different to calorie restriction. And probably much healthier for us to have periods of fasting and refeeding, rather than extended periods of low calories.
It sounds from your description of fasting, that day two when you started feeling better and had more energy, is when you transitioned from glucose metabolism into ketone metabolism. Your brain suddenly has an alternate source of fuel that it can use, and you're right - starts going into a rest, repair, detox mode.
However that mode is very different to the "fight the bugs" mode. So when I emailed Dr Longo, he advised to not do fasting "when you have an infection". Though I guess he wouldn't know about how long term the infection from Lyme and cos is, maybe its different. Still, when posting these things on this forum, I like to be cautious, in case someone takes the advice and hurts themselves
And a side note, ketogenic diets "probably work because fasting works." So you're much better off eating a nourishing full diet, including carbohydrates from vegetables, with the addition of having periods of fasting, then going back to eating carbohydrates etc again.
I dont seem to be able to post the link to the study on all the effects here, but its called "A Periodic Diet that Mimics Fasting Promotes Multi-System Regeneration, Enhanced Cognitive Performance, and Healthspan"
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Brussels
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Ozlyme, thank you for your detailed description of this sort of low calory diet...
I was wondering...
The lecturer mentioned at a certain point on that lecture, something like doing a calory restriction diet only for a couple of DAYS in a 3 month period...
Did I get it wrong?
As for the 'don't do it during active infection', I have to disagree - I'm not a doctor, but I just listen to my body, who I consider my best doctor...
When you get ill with infections (or other conditions), one of the first symptoms is to stop eating - lack of hunger.
I believe the body is telling me something, and most children stop eating when they get ill with viruses or infections.
There is NO way you can convince a baby, small child, even bigger children to eat when they are not hungry.
I believe the body knows a lot.
And small children still survive, and heal without food, right?
If nature made it this way, and we survived millions of years following this path of development (because in animals, that happens the same, they stop eating),
... well, I believe more in nature than in doctors, knowing medicine just started its history a few years ago...
The moment I stopped eating, I was in a bad moment in my lyme treatment. My progress halted.
I could not improve, nothing I took seemed to help.
And on top, I was not hungry. Every bite of food felt like useless, tasteless, a burden.
That was when I stopped to eat.
I also know that sometimes, when I was fully toxic with lyme (or candida), I just felt the opposite: I felt like eating fats, butter, meats, egggs, anything full of fats that meant: the body needs to detox neurotoxins.
Neurotoxins are fat-soluble.
So I ate these stuff, even though they did not always help (as you need more than only fats, and not all fats are the same...)
Coming back to fasting: well, I do think somewhere inside us, there is a mechanism that boost immunity the moment the body fasts.
And that is exactly a sort of evolution mechanism, linked to infections (in my opinion).
That is why fasting helps MS, I think (it fights against brain viruses or pathogens).
It also helped my chronic lyme, at least once, it was a clear immune boosting technique (the fastest I ever experienced).
The other times I fasted, I did not have lyme anymore, so I can't say they helped me fight infections...
But anyway, in my non-medical opinion, when you feel food is doing more harm than good, when you are not hungry, if you decide to stop eating for a few hours, then days, it won't probably bring too much harm.
On the opposite: it may help you fight these nasty buggers...
Another note: while some people can survive on a couple of fruits, and bits of veggies here and there, and they are still strong enough to do all physical activities they need, ....
... others need to take an incredible amount of animal meats, milk /yoghurt, fats, plus potatoes and carbs, to live their lives...
I think food is more like a matter philosophical discussion than 'physical nutrition'...
anyway, I think I will continue on my sporadic fasting. I usually do that before winter!
Have you ever tried fasting, Ozlyme?
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Thanks for the thoughts, they largely reflect my own opinions on the subject. However I havent heard many people with Lyme discussing if they fast or not, if its a good idea, etc... so it's good to hear your experience!
You heard correctly about the few days a month. But I should clarify. There are two very different approaches discussed in the video:
1) Chronic calorie restriction. Eating 70-80% of normal intake, over an extended period of time. That was the man who was very thin looking, who I described above (Roy Walford). 2) Period fasting / water fasting, and what the "fasting mimicking diet" is based on. This method is not eating at all, or not eating anything your body registers as "food" i.e. glucose and protein. The version of this the video discusses is the fasting mimicking diet, which is like water fasting but you still eat nutrients and fat, and it doesn't go as long. It is just 5 days in a month, and you can do it once a month or every few months.
I have done one cycle of the fasting mimicking diet but that was a while back earlier this year, before i knew anything about infections. I think it helped me. At the time i felt good. But i also was a bit too thin beforehand id say, so 5 days of the fasting mimicking diet (which still has some food, just fats)... was prob enough for me.
I felt great on the diet, but after I felt the symptoms bothering me come back. I cant tell if it helped, but one cycle is unlikely to do much.
What sort of fasting do you like to do?
Posts: 38 | From NSW, Australia | Registered: Sep 2018
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Brussels
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Thanks for explaining...
I think fasting cannot be a solution for all, it's more like a way to re-boot the system.
It's funny that dr Rau from Paracelsus clinic here in switzerland says that a diet high in proteins is bad for anyone, that we should be eating only about 60 grams of proteins a day to allow the body to heal.
And there are plant proteins and animal proteins, which are different, I think.
You describe well what fasting did to me too: you feel good.
I guess that's why people do it.
Of course, when you do long fasting, I guess it stops to feel good...
What I usually do, when I am not feeling well, I stop eating, simply.
I shift to only eating fruits or raw stuff, then simply stop eating, only taking herbal teas for example (no sugar, no honey).
I never saw fasting as a hard thing to do.
It is hard SOCIALLY, but not hard as a technique (to me, at least).
Socially you gotta say: I'm not eating, I'm not drinking (I mean, no wine, no sodas... all what people drink socially).
That's the hard part, as they look at you 'What the heck...?'
If I feel like eating something, I would eat one fruit a day.
The days become VERY long when you fast.
You don't shop for food, you don't cook, you don't wash dishes, you got a lot of time, no more that schema breakfast-lunch-dinner cutting your day.
The last experiment I did was 100% raw food, for months. That was even better than fasting somehow, because I could do it for longer, muuch longer.
I only stopped because winter came, and I felt like eating warm food again.
It felt amazingly good too.
I like the idea of period fasting.
I wonder if they do 5 days one after another in a month?
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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aklnwlf
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posted
Never did a milk fast but I've done other food restriction methods.
Someone here was kind enough to point out to me that my other posts on fasting were incorrect (K) and not a true water only fast.
That being said the first time was in 1975 when I was into yoga and Hinduism. I did a 7 day water fast and drank one 6 oz V8 a day. It was very tough and I had headaches, chills and sweats, hunger pains and insomnia for about 4 days, which I attribute to detox.
On the 5th day I felt completely different. Was extremely calm, energetic, empathic and able to discern personality quirks and why they existed, slept like a baby and life just seemed to be a whole lot more than what we perceived it to be. Basically it was life altering.
Last year I did 2 ten days and 1 six day this year of juicing and drank teas and broths. First thing was making a fresh beet, apple, carrot and powdered chlorella juice and chugging it down with 4-5 caps of spirulina. I immediately juiced red cabbage alone and drank that.
Plenty of filtered, reverse osmosis, etc water throughout the day. Around late afternoon would start my organic broths mixed with pink salt to help with dizziness.
Did this everyday and by the 3rd day felt miraculous! Little to no joint pain, clear minded, sweet tempered and patient. Helpful projects came to mind and felt peaceful, hopeful and that I could accomplish anything.
I know this isn't mainstream advice but it's my experience with juicing, etc.
For myself this method provided much needed rest of all my organs that handle digestion and the energy was used elsewhere determined by my body.
Oh also I belonged to a religious organization that practices food mimicking diets since the late 1800's. They believe in 2 meals a day with no liquids during meals to aid digestion. So you eat early in the morning and then around 3-4 that way giving your digestive organs at least a 16 hour break. There's food combo restrictions too.
This is a great thread! Never had a chance to speak about the esoteric reasons for fasting.
-------------------- Do not take this as medical advice. This comment is based on opinion and personal experience only.
Alaska Lone Wolf Posts: 6147 | From Columbus, GA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Brussels
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Lone Wolf, thanks for sharing your experience!
Fasting is such an old technique used on purpose by many traditions, and unconsciously by everyone else (babies, small children, animals!) that it must have its pros!!
The clinic who promotes fasting near my place here, in Germany, knows that after day 3, nasty things can start happening.
It can be extremely tough, as you describe.
I would not do it on my own without being able to ingest LOADS of chlorella / spiru, DE, charcoal, detox teas, whatever else you think binds toxins...
I think I hadn't got these bad reactions on my 1st fasting (on day 3), because I had been ingesting chlorella and binders for YEARS on a daily base, in great amounts, before I started fasting.
My diet had been under control much before I started fasting, I don't think I take one glass of soda in a year (my average is less than that), and that may explain why I hadn't crashed, but only felt good, from day 1.
Most people don't do that, so that is why I think fasting can be dangerous too. Without mastering binders, without knowing about them, without some support, it may be dangerous to go on a full fasting on your own...
I mean, children and animals don't think about all these details, but they may have less problems than us, adults suffering from lyme chronically...
Your fresh smoothy 'fasting' looks like my 'only raw food' period.
I don't even consider that as fasting, because I don't feel deprived of nutrients, nor really hungry...
It simply feels wonderful.
Yep, anxiety is directly linked to bad health, toxins. I'm a full believer on that.
When you see how aggressive lyme patients behave - I'm not blaming them, as I was one of them - you know:
If anyone is very aggressive, I know the person needs treatment. Fasting may be a good starting point, if not full fasting, whatever thing you do to lower the amount of hard-to-digest foods will be a blessing to the body.
Look at you: after 3rd day, you felt barely any joint pain, your mind cleared, your mood improved, you start to plan for the future, you start to connect to people again. Isn't it wonderful?
I'm SURE that fasting help the immune system to boost, to re-start, that fasting helps us killing pathogens ALSO BECAUSE it cleans the body.
Fasting was an enlightment to me, somehow. It showed me the CLEAR relation between DETOX and IMMUNITY.
The relation is direct.
While people here in lymenet usually concentrate in killing pathogens, I decided to concentrate on cleaning my body.
If one concentrates on killing, little can be done at a new infection, new tick or mosquito bite.
If one concentrates on cleansing, nourishment, next infected insect bite will do little harm to your body, in my opinion.
It takes though months, years to rebuild the immune system through cleansing, but for me and my family, that was the only way as we live in tick land and get bitten the whole time...
Our society, media, schools, own family will always keep spreading false-truths, not because they are mean, it's just something people hear and spread, without a lot of reflection.
Fasting is one such a thing: how can you heal if you don't eat? Fasting is dangerous etc.
Like drinking sea water: oh, you die if you drink sea water, even though you don't die if take daily salty soups...
Nice to know fasting helped you. It's not even esoteric, otherwise babies and our pets would be esoteric beings!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
I hope to do a 5 day fasting mimicking diet in the next few weeks. Will let you all know how I go!
Posts: 38 | From NSW, Australia | Registered: Sep 2018
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Brussels
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Wonderful!!!
Wishing you good luck!!!!!! Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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I haven't worked it all out yet, when, etc. But my Dr thought i'd be ok to do it. And he knows infections / Lyme / mould etc. Though he didn't really know anything about this diet, he understood when i told him it simulated a 5 day water fast.
Prof. Valter Longo talks in depth about the benefits of fasting. One thing he's never mentioned is its effects on detoxification. I wonder if it will help this process, too.
Posts: 38 | From NSW, Australia | Registered: Sep 2018
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Keebler
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- There are many "definitions" of "fasting" - and as many different "suggested" time measurements of doing so.
It's never a good idea to deprive the body of nutrients, though, no matter what plan one might consider. There are ways to ensure nutrients more so with short term fasting of 12 - 16 hours or maybe one or two days at a time.
If you are fasting without fat in your diet, that can damage the brain - and other body organs, too. Same with some other key nutrients like protein, minerals & vitamins.
IMO, it's an impossible task to try to starve any infection by avoiding any key nutrient that the body requires. The infections / microbes will just eat other "foods" or our own tissue / bones.
Better to give the body what it needs to be strong and find other ways to attend to infections. Of course, though, avoiding processed sugar is good but that is not required by any body.
For anyone with any of the more than 11 types of porphyria (or secondary porphyria as can occur with some chronic stealth infections), fasting can be dangerous, even fatal.
The ketogentic / low carb high fat approach suggests for SOME folks intermittent fasting, a much safter approach (as long as someone does not have porphyria).
Dr. Stephen Phinney - 'Metabolic Effects of Fasting: A Two-Edged Sword'
20:05 - from Conference: Low Carb Breck 2018 at Breckenridge, Colorado
Dr. Phinney is a physician-scientist who has spent 35 years studying diet, exercise, fatty acids, and inflammation.
He has published over 70 papers and several patents. He received his MD from Stanford University, his PhD in Nutritional Biochemistry from MIT, and post-doctoral training at the University of Vermont and Harvard.
Low Carb Down Under
Published on May 26, 2018 -
[ 10-06-2018, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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what type of M.D. tests for PORPHYRIA? Includes detail about: HPU / KPU . . . .
what to avoid . . . what can help . . .
Some links here are expired yet you can find the detail by searching with article titles / authors. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Brussels
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Keebler, fasting does not mean 'starving the bacteria'.
Where could ANYONE find this crazy idea?!?
As long as there is life, there will be bacteria in our bodies.
And viruses, and candida, and other beings living in our bodies.
" Fasting is an exceptionally ancient, and powerful, approach to healing many common disease conditions.
It allows the body to rest, detoxify, and to heal.
During fasting the body moves into the same kind of detoxification cycle that it normally enters during sleep.
As a fast progresses the body consumes everything that it can that is not essential to bodily functioning.
This includes bacteria, viruses, fibroid tumors, waste products in the blood, any build up around the joints, and stored fat.
The historical record indicates that human beings are evolutionarily designed to fast.
It is an incredibly safe approach to healing and the body knows how to do it very well."
For all benefits, take a look at the whole page Buhner wrote above. incredible ANTI INFLAMMATORY effects comes from fasting.
As he says, it's safe.
I would say though, it's not that safe due to excess of toxins that come out, specially after day 3.
I'd do it in a fasting clinic, if possible, in case you fear detox reactions.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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And you are right concerning cases of porphiria.
----------- "People Who Should Not Fast
Although most people can fast, there are a few who, because of special conditions, should not.
* People who are extremely emaciated or in a state of starvation
* Those who are anorexic or bulemic
* Pregnant, diabetic women
* Nursing mothers
* Those who have severe anemia
* Those with an extreme fear of fasting
* Those with porphyria. Porphyria refers to a genetic metabolic defect that affects the body's ability to manage porphyrins.
Porphyrins are a group of compounds that combine with iron to produce blood, are involved in the control of electron transport systems, and, within mitochondria, are intricately involved in the production, accumulation, and utilization of energy.
Porphyria can cause malfunctions in the liver, bone marrow, and red blood cells and produces a wide range of symptoms including seizures.
* People with a rare, genetic, fatty acid deficiency which prevents THE INITIATION OF KETOSIS.
This is a deficiency involving the enzyme acetyl-CoA, a mitochondrial fatty acid oxidation enzyme, that is essential to ketosis.
Those with this deficiency who do fast can experience severe side effects, including hepatic steatosis, myocardial lipid accumulation, and severe hypoglycemia."
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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The funny thing is that I'm a blatant sufferer of HPU , so theoretically I have porphyria, but I thrive on fasting...
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Keebler
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- Brussels,
You ask: " fasting does not mean 'starving the bacteria'.
Where could ANYONE find this crazy idea?!?" (end your quote)
Uh, it's in the first post of this thread:
Christopher says: " . . . Lyme disease needs manganese to survive and actually lots and lots of it. It is my opinion that Lyme and Morgellons are linked.
Over long periods of time, the deficiency of manganese from a milk only diet makes the bacteria really weak. . . ." (end quote).
Whether I disagree with the idea of "starving" a particular infection of any nutrient, this is something that keeps getting repeated in various ways, whether years ago regarding magnesium or here, regarding another nutrient:
Again, while we don't need to overload on any key food or nutrient, and it's good to always keep processed foods and simple sugars at a minimum,
I disagree with the idea of allowing our bodies to be depleted in any key nutrient as even if a particular infection likes something, if it's removed, that infection will just go for other things on the menu, delve deeper in our tissues to find what it wants.
And, diet of only one food source is going to deplete us terribly. Skim milk also is very simple. It's not the complex kind of food we need. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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I should really start a new thread, since the fasting I'm talking about is completely different to both the skim milk diet proposed above, and the overnight fasting / intermittent fasting etc.
I'd suggest anyone with such objections to check out Professor Valter Longo's video. He really explains it much better than me.
But here are some things that periodic fasting / fasting mimicking diets are NOT:
1) It is not a long term strategy of going without food or nutrients. Rather, a short, 5 day period, which is done between once a month, or once a year. The rest of the time it's critical one eats a normal calorie but nutrient DENSE diet.
2) It is not an attempt to starve pathogens. Rather, it massively upregulates autophagy, and apoptosis. The process somehow knows how to target damaged cells. Including cancer cells. I'm not sure, but I would believe it may well also include cells with intracellular bacteria. However the main reason I'm interested in it for Lyme + cos, is that its been shown to rejuvenate the immune system.
3) If done CORRECTLY, it certainly doesn't damage the brain. The brain can run well on ketones, as long as its not too prolonged. It leads to neuroregeneration. HOWEVER, at first, the damaged cells ARE killed. Then REBUILT from stem cells, after one refeeds. So it's critical to not JUST fast. You really need the fasting and REFEEDING period, in order to kill of bad cells, then regenerate new ones.
Prof Longo's lab has even shown it can regenerate the insulin producing cells in Type 1 diabetics. I don't think anything else has been shown to be able to do that, yet.
Posts: 38 | From NSW, Australia | Registered: Sep 2018
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posted
But I should really start a new thread about this topic, since it's getting mixed up with all the other fasting methods.
Also... thanks for the information on Porphyria. That is something I hadnt considered at all, so very useful for me.
I have a chlamydophila pneumoniae infection and hence could have problems with porphyria (nothing Ive noticed yet). But i did one 5 day fasting mimicking diet cycle fine, and felt pretty good overall.
Posts: 38 | From NSW, Australia | Registered: Sep 2018
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Keebler
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- OzLyme,
My comments were not in response to your posts. It's good that you clarify, of course, for those who want to take the time it takes to study various hypotheses and approaches.
To clarify my comments and what they refer to:
Re: Long term use of just skim milk (which, by the way, is a simple sugar in the body and can cause glucose and insulin surges - and if not organic can contain lots of farm chemicals & endocrine disruptors)
- my comments cautioning about long term approach to solely skim milk fasting were in response to:
First post starting this thread , Christopher J. writes:
". . . . Over long periods of time, the deficiency of manganese from a milk only diet makes the bacteria really weak. . ."
Then he goes in another post to state:
"I am convinced if I stay on long enough, like maybe a month or more it would permanently cripple the Lyme"
Christopher,
The problems you have sticking to this, the "cravings" after about two weeks that you describe, are - IMO - messages from your body that there are other was - safer ways to approach this.
Please, everyone, do not starve your body from any nutrients that your body requires.
There are some safer ways for short term adapted fasting that do still take in key nutrients.
Yet, still the idea that lyme can be starved of key nutrients that our bodies need is a dangerous notion. -
[ 10-07-2018, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Kinda figured. I'm glad it helps. I could never do it because all the milk and OJ made my stomach churn. But I believe it theoretically helps with metabolism.
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