The paper is comparing two antibiotics, penicillin and tetracycline: both cause herxheimer reactions, but penicillin is more deadly.
"The overall death rate following antibiotic treatment was 3.8%.
In terms of the J-Herxheimer reaction, there were more deaths in the penicillin-treated group (4.1 %), with 2.8% in the tetracycline group.
In terms of the frequency as well as mortality from the J-Herxheimer reaction, it appeared that penicillin had no therapeutic advantage over tetracycline, and the latter was associated with less frequent J-Herxheimer reaction and death."
----------------------
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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Herxheimer reactions after drugs
" The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is most often observed when diseases caused by spirochetes are treated with penicillin or tetracycline.
In louse-borne relapsing fever, which is caused by Borrelia recurrentis, there are often large numbers of spirochetes in the blood and tissues, and the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is very common and often severe;
....it is fatal in some 5 percent of cases."
--------------------- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2041950 In leptospirosis, a herxheimer reaction is both CAUSE of morbidity AND mortality, as well as an indication that the therapy works.
In other words, if it does not kill you, it is good for you.
This one of a pregnant woman suffering from Tick Born Relapsing Fever ( Borrelia sp): after a herx, the baby was born early (there are other cases too of complications of pregnancy due to herxheimer reactions).
Brussels
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posted
This is not medical literature, but it comes from the Hansa center.
I kind of agree with his view. I don't understand why LLMDs do not help patients with organ support, binders, etc...
A great portion of posts of lymenet are about herxes and suffering from reactions to antimicrobials.
It's been like that since I came here, more than 10 years ago.
Still today, many LLMDs do not give any organ support or binders (or barely). They see herx-management as secondary, and mostly concentrate on anti-microbials.
The problem is that anti-microbials unfortunately cause disease : organ damage, extreme fatigue, cytokine storms, and that all WILL contribute for SPREAD and development of more microbes, more symptoms, more immune dysfunction, more physical damage.
"Sally’s Lyme-Literate M.D. (LLMD) started her on five different antibiotics in an all out attack to “kill the Lyme bacteria” at all costs.
The cost in this case was Sally losing the use of her colon, which stopped functioning completely, and her having to contend with the new symptoms of multiple chemical sensitivities, chronic colitis,
.... asthma, fatty liver, hemophilia, a propensity to skin, sinus, and lung infections, confinement to her home virtually 100% of the time, and she still has difficulty swallowing!
Mary suffered from mild to moderate symptoms of Lyme disease so her LLMD prescribed the drug Rifampin.
After just two Rifampin pills Mary could not sleep for seven whole days, even for an hour, and she felt like she was going to jump out of her body.
The nerves from her head to her toes felt inflamed and like they were vibrating.
To Mary’s horror she began to feel like she was suffocating, which caused her blood pressure to rise dangerously high for days on end.
For many weeks the symptoms persisted and were joined by uncontrollable urination, severe tremors, and severe, constant pain throughout her entire body.
She would watch the nerves causing her muscles to jump like they were going to come through the skin.
Her eyes twitched in spasms that would force them to close, while her eyeballs thumped inside her sockets.
Her LLMD calmly told her that it was just a severe herx reaction that can be expected in the treatment of Lyme disease.
Mary still has virtually all of these symptoms to this day."
----------------------- "Should You Expect To Feel Worse Before You Feel Better?
I have to protest and I must passionately disagree, because our doctors just don’t see it in practice, a practice that treats only the worst, most chronically ill cases from all over the world.
It is barbaric to hold to the idea that it is necessary to make the patient feel worse and sometimes cause them permanent damage."
"In truth, a severe Herxheimer reaction is a sign of poor elimination pathway drainage, poor organ support, and poor treatment by your doctor!"
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Keebler
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- What most typical doctors do not know that there are ways to help prevent problems from a herxheimer reaction.
Most LLMDs know this and this is why many nearly require liver support to be in place from day one. Quite frankly, if liver support is not part of a protocol, it's not a safe comprehensive protocol, from my point of view.
LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Yep, definitively. I particularly would run away any doctor that does not give me ANY support for binding neuro toxins and supporting the liver, kidney and lymph.
This paper is quite detailed, and explains the rise of cytokine storms from herxes.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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1/3 of neurosyphilis patients suffer from herxes.
" It is a serious complication that can result in severe neurologic morbidity and death.
Convulsions, altered mental stauts, focal neurolocig signs and psychosis have been reported.
A recent report of a J-Herxheimer in a patient with neurosyphilis identified generalized 3 Hz rhythmic activity in the electroencephalogram, which was interpreted as periodic lateralized epileptiform discharges (PLEDs).
This finding raised the concern that nonvonvulsive status epilepticus (NCSE) may result from this condition....
We recently took care of a patient with neurosyphilis who developed Herxheimer and NCSE, who went on to develop epilepsy and a fixed encephalopathy"
Herxes occur in 50% of primary syphilis (meaning acute cases).
Herxes occur in 70% of secondary syphilis. Symptoms are relieved by antipyretics.
"In contrast, the J-Herxheimer reaction associated with the treatment of late syphilis can be severe if, for example, the aorta or cerebral vasculature is involved in the disease process.
Systemic steroids are often prescribed for 2-3 days prior to treatment of late syphilis, to good effect.
In pregnancy, the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction that arises from the treatment of primary and secondary disease in the 2md sand 3rd trimesters carries a risk of fetal loss and should be closely monitored"
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Keebler
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- From article just above this one:
" . . . Systemic steroids are often prescribed for 2-3 days prior to treatment of late syphilis, to good effect. . . ." (end quote)
Well, steroids with any infection can bring disaster - unless the anti-infection treatment is administered in a very particular manner.
TX Lyme Mom
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posted
Nice work, Brussels. I'm so glad that I didn't miss seeing this topic.
Thanks to Keebler, too, for your valuable contributions to this topic.
I don't visit Lymenet very often anymore these days -- too busy.
That's why I feel lucky that this topic was near the top and that I decided to click on it. No matter how much I've learned about Lyme disease over the years, this topic reminds me of how much I still don't know about it.
It's topics like this one which make Lymenet such a very special place.
Kudos to both of you two, Brussels and Keebler.
Posts: 4563 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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Keebler
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- The thing is that while a herx can tip the scales over the edge, most deaths from a herxheimer is really death from improper comprehensive lyme / TBD / other chronic stealth infection.
Any proper treatment plan requires that methods are in place for herx management.
When this does not happen and treatment plan is not a proper one, it's the failure of the overall treatment and often also the treating doctors' lack of understanding of the complexity of this issue.
Sometimes, maybe often (?) an out of control herx is the result of bad medical treatment.
Yet, I'll add that if a proper treatment plan is in place in time that include liver and kidney support. . . still any patients who have a compromised liver or kidneys -
for whatever reason - well, then there can be herx fatalities just because the liver &/or kidneys just can't keep up due to disease, damage or other influences.
Sometimes, with previously damaged organs, all bets are off. Another good reason to keep liver & kidney nourishment and nurturing at the top of our list, always.
One reason that alcohol use is to be avoided during lyme / TBD or really with any infections. Smoking, too, puts one at greater risk from a herx due to stress on organs of elimination but also the stress in micro circulation. If the body can't circulate fluids it won't be able to properly eliminate waste such as that which accumulates with a herxheimer reaction. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Brussels
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Nice that someone at least reads!
And of course, I noticed the (bad) point with steroids for syphilis.
I'm sure the 'normal' medical treatment of Borrelia burgdorferi offered by mainstream doctors is like a copy-cat of syphilis.
Drs copied everything from the old syphilis literature and just change the name to lyme disease, it seems : 1st stage, 2nd stage, late stage syphilis.
Then they added post-lyme syndrome, to say, 'the patient is inventing his symptoms' or 'he suffers from phantom symptoms'.
I wonder how many thousands of syphilis patients were not damaged or killed by adding cortisone to their treatments.
That is how we see how retarded is our 'medicine'. What kind of evolution we see from syphilis treatment in the last 500 years??
that's a topic for a new thread!
-------------- Syphilis in composers and musicians--Mozart, Beethoven, Paganini, Schubert, Schumann, Smetana.
In the pre-antibiotics era, syphilis was an extremely common disease.
The first well-recorded European outbreak of what is now known as syphilis occurred in 1494, when it appeared among French troops besieging Naples.
Thereafter, the disease spread all over Europe and, in the 18th and 19th centuries, many artists became victims of syphilis,
... among them poets, painters, philosophers, and musicians and composers.
This review presents biographies of several musicians and composers that probably suffered from syphilis."
posted
A very useful topic, I would never have thought that herx is such a dangerous drug. However, as far as I know, covid-19 is much more dangerous now. Although I still do not understand what this virus is and how it was transmitted from China. We still have a quarantine and it is still not clear when it will end, it seems that they have already started producing vaccines, but according to calculations, it will take about 10 years to vaccinate all people in the world, and in my opinion this is a very long time. By the way, you've never read about Peptide Therapy . I've heard that thanks to this therapy, you can look younger and healthier, don't you know it's true?
[ 03-18-2021, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: DragonTest ]
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