randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
ok, question. does your doctor or legally can doctors sell supplements.
i heard about a husband who got po'd because his wife bought supplements from a doctor. (get a grip!!)
now my chiro sells a ton of stuff. and my doctor is located right next door to a massage/health place and has their flyers in his office.
what's the problem with doctors selling stuff? i mean it's not breaking the law is it?
i'd tell that husband to go fly a kite.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Yes, it is legal -- within the terms of their state license and operating contract, of course. Most ND -naturopathic doctors - and acupuncturists -do this. Some DC's and I've only know of a couple MDs who were holistic.
Usually, supplements are set at market value, the same price as one would get anywhere that product is available (although they may be able to find it for less on sale or on sites that buy in huge quantity).
My ND has a well stocked pharmacy of supplements and it costs her a lot to maintain that, they have to buy it all first.
She seeks out the best quality, keeps it in the right temperature, etc. so I can be assured that she's done the homework on it and I don't have to. For me, and some others who can't manage retail price, she often offers a discount.
Now, some holistic MDs like to do the same, doing the research and finding the best products so they know their patients aren't buying inferior brands, etc.
And, yes, since they can buy at a certain practitioners' price and sell for the market value (as done with everything anyone sells, anywhere) . . . they do make a bit of money. However, if you take into account the time of their research on their stock items (hours per each, probably) . . . the cost of shipping and keeping in stock a decent supply and range - most don't really rake in cash on this but it's more for patient quality assurance.
It's also a convenience as it save me from having to research it, find all the available sites, check freshness, standards of storage in a warehouse - and avoid my own cost of shipping.
Still, patients are never forced to buy from doctors' offices. When I've not been able to get something needed, any ND I've worked said what discount they could afford to give me. Or how to find a less expensive alternative or which was absolutely most important and what I could drop.
I also have to take into account that the ND has always treated me for 1/3 of her normal fee but for the same time as others. She's making no money on me at all but we both know it's a honest transaction, each of us doing the best we can (I in taking care of myself; her for helping others while trying to stay afloat).
As for those angered by this with NDs or MDs, I say "get a grip" - take everything into account. Some, when figuring in all involved are no longer angry. Some people just want to be irritated at anyone who seemingly makes a buck, without realizing that someone has to pay the light bills.
I'd rather see a good holistic doctor make a bit on something that is good for me rather than the pharmaceutical giants for stuff with all sorts of side effects that I have to take a supplement to offset side-effects.
Think pharmacies give the stuff away at cost? Everyone has overhead. Everyone has to pay the staff, the bills, the manufacturer. And everyone has some choice in what they buy and from whom. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Some states do not permit some practitioners to sell supps. Not sure if WA still does not allow it, but when I had a license there 20 years ago DCs were not allowed to sell supps.
And thanks Keebs for the balanced view. Some seem to think if a doc makes some $$ on supps that the practitioner has sold his or her soul to the devil.
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quote:Originally posted by Keebler: As for those angered by this with NDs or MDs, I say "get a grip" - take everything into account. Some, when figuring in all involved are no longer angry. Some people just want to be irritated at anyone who seemingly makes a buck, without realizing that someone has to pay the light bills. -------------------------
Think pharmacies give the stuff away at cost? Everyone has overhead. Everyone has to pay the staff, the bills, the manufacturer.
Ditto!!
What angers ME is people who don't understand BASIC ECONOMICS!! Are they no longer teaching this in high school???
Profit is NOT evil!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
hey, i'd trust a doctor's judgement on what supplements are good for lyme better than my own lymie little brain.
i mean after all, my doc reads lyme books all the time and he prescribes to Dr. S's and other approaches.
so why not trust him? better than going to wallie world and just getting stuff off the shelf ain't it?
posted
My former doctor, who died last year, was the first to alert me to mycoplasma infections. He himself had been ill, so he researched the supplement industry. He had been the founder and president of one of the biggest companies in Silicon Valley before he switched gears to become an MD. So he brought his business and research skills to the task.
He toured the factories to learn how supplements are made. He became aware of the great differences between the brands. He finally chose the ones he liked and he offered them to his patients. He said that he added 10% to his cost to cover his handling of them. I thought that was more than fair. And I got the very best.
-------------------- DOCTOR: "I don't think you are sick." PATIENT: "We are all entitled to our opinions. I don't think you are a doctor." Posts: 697 | From Northern California | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
I still buy some supplements from my LLMD. They are supps that are only sold through doctors and I find them to be what I want. My LLMD sells supps he pushes (like Cowden) at a discount where he's only making enough to ship them. Other supps he sells at list.
All of us work for money, so I don't have a problem with docs trying to supplement the income of their practice with supps, just so long at the supps are good and aren't pushed too hard (like my local doc does .... prescribes supps, then wants to see you every other week to see how you're doing on them!!!).
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I'm interested by this discussion since there are good arguments on both sides. My previous llmd had an entire section devoted to the supplements she prescribed. Some were priced at market rates, others were more expensive. None were cheaper. (My husband researched this). On one hand, I feel supplements help; on the other its expensive and not everyone can afford it. It was convenient and helpful to me when I was sicker than I am now.
My acupuncturist carries the brands he has researched and feels confident in, but he has NEVER suggested only those he carries and you have to look hard to see them. I prefer this way of handling supplements. My current llmd and other docs I know personally and professionally are dubious about docs selling supplements they prescribe.
So its an interesting question.
Posts: 72 | From washington dc | Registered: Mar 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Many kinds of doctors sell all kinds of stuff we don't even see.
Some get bonuses for certain pharmaceutical prescriptions ordered but you don't see that on the receipt.
For some tests & many kinds of procedures, the ordering doctor gets a bonus. For certain kinds of artificial joints, doctors get bonuses for their using one brand over the other. Big bonuses. Huge bonuses.
And, gasp, some doctors get bonuses for NOT testing or treating for lyme.
Many doctors get paid to spend less time with patients, too. It's in their contract to keep office visits under a certain number of minutes. They often don't have a choice in that but they do with the other perks. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
My LLMD sells supps cheaper than I can find them on the internet. For one example, Therelac.
Posts: 847 | From upstateNY | Registered: Dec 2007
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massman
Unregistered
posted
One large factor is that all supps are not the same. Last time I was doing a lot of research on the subject, over 90% of supplements sold in this country were made by drug companies.
I have recommended repeatedly here 2 books:
"The Real Truth About Vitamins and Antioxidants" by Judith DeCava and "New Dimensions in Herbal Healing" by Jack Tips
With all the controversy here about vitamins I am surprised how only one or two people here have claimed they read them. Screams about costs have also occurred so then I suggested a small group here (maybe 4 people) could chip in $5 each + then share the book by mailing it around.
Anyway...thanks for starting this thread
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posted
I'm with alot of the comments here. Some/many docs also have 'relationships' with hospitals in which they must refer X number of patients/$ for tests and procedures to keep up the relationship. Some also receive money for referring patients to specific practices if a patient needs a specialist. Many docs are dependent on the drug sales 'educational material' and no other independent sources.
It pays to be a wise consumer in such a mess of a system. That's why my husband and I do a ton of research into supplements, docs, procedures, etc.
I'm a skeptic on lots of medical matters-as well as others. Posts: 72 | From washington dc | Registered: Mar 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- There are far more than just those two books as far as educational materials about supplements. Many good resources are out there to help us learn. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Keebler - I am very aware of other books. I have been a compulsive reader for 50 years. Have read many of the lyme books.
Bought + read all recommended books during schooling.
The two I have recommended here are the best I have seen + used on the subjects.
I have read + learned from things you have suggested here. You seem very invested in continuing ed., which is great.
I am confused why these books are not even considered here.
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Who says they are not considered? Hundreds of posts are read each day and most who read don't write out a report on the links posted.
I merely encouraged people to read and search beyond what we see here. It's a big world out there. That's all. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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massman
Unregistered
posted
I say they are not onsidered. Guess too much education is tooooooo dangerous !
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- massman, no one knows who's picking up links. With about 75-100 persons usually logged on here, my guess is that many read and don't post.
If you need instant feedback in person, find a nice bookstore with some reading / discussion groups. Some books actually have their own discussion sites.
I post a ton of links to books. No one ever discusses those. And I'd not have the energy were they inclined to do so. I often suggest searching beyond this site but I rarely hear back the result of such suggestions.
Posts (and suggestions) are supposed to be like gifts - people take them if they find them useful, pass them along to others - or not. Once it's put out there, it has a life of its own.
Education is not dangerous but attitude sure can be. Putting down readers here for not forming a fan club for books you post is insulting and not at all what this board is supposed to be about: sharing. We share. They/we can take it or leave it. And the world still turns. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I had come back to post a thought that, even for doctors who make a bit of profit on some supplements, we have no way of knowing how that works into their budget.
Profits may be used to offset patient fees, cover other professional costs, etc. If a doctor is flaunting an opulent life style, that's one thing. But most who offer supplements to patients do it out of courtesy.
Some companies also may REQUIRE that their products be sold at a certain price, keeping it the same everywhere for everyone. Still, the doctor would have the choice as to how to use income from that and my guess is that it usually all works out to be fairly balanced. When that is not the case, we have a choice. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Many here howl about poor results, no results, getting worse, no supplements help + on + on.....
When given suggestions to increase their understanding + health they do nothing + then complain more. They take NO ACTION to get RESULTS.
I have recommended docs to probably 50 to 70 people + only 2 have seen the docs + have been OK or very pleased.
So many apparently just love to complain. I guess it is their identity, the one they want.
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
maybe they are taking action and not getting improvement.
it's easy to give up when you're so sick and many simply can't afford these doctors.
we can mail supplements to others to help and care packages also.
if i didn't have this board to "complain" to, i'd probably, no, i would be in a world of hurt.
i would say a few, very few, complain but if they do i can certainly relate.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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So many apparently just love to complain. I guess it is their identity, the one they want. [/QB]
You complain constantly about our not reading the Tips' books .. how do you know people here have not read them? Many could be buying them without your knowledge... unless maybe you have a close relationship with Dr Tips?
We have tons of "lurkers" here who may have purchased the books. Quit whining and you'll get more who will try them.
Note to others... As massman knows, I've read the Tips book on yeast.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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RDaywillcome
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 21454
posted
THEY SHOULDN'T!
Posts: 1738 | From over the rainbow | Registered: Jul 2009
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RDaywillcome
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 21454
posted
Please listen to your doctor. Don't listen to a lot of the people on here who have a vested interest in things they are trying to sell.
If you eat all the right foods and listen to your doctor, things will get better.
Antibiotics for over ten years and following all this b.s. and now I'm still having to go through more tests that aren't related to lyme. Hmmm, even my llmd has given up. Let's see what you all have to say.
Not treating all infections? Not taking the right vitamins? Not watching your diet? HMMM, what have I missed? I will let you know more after all this antibiotic treatment and still no answers!
All of you need to listen to your doctors and not take advice of some of the veterans that have been on here for years, and still who try to sell their wares. Buyer Beware!
Posts: 1738 | From over the rainbow | Registered: Jul 2009
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