posted
My husband crushed 5 black legged deer ticks in Eastern PA with the top of his water bottle. Did not wash water bottle throughout the two days afterward. He handled the water bottle, drank from it, and ate without washing his hands for two days afterward. Three days afterward, he developed a fever and diarrhea. His fever and diarrhea has been fluctuating for two days.
Could this be Lyme or another tick related illness?
Our dog got bit by a tick on the same trip and is being treated for Lyme.
Posts: 1 | From Cincinnati | Registered: Oct 2014
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Keebler
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- I'm assuming your husband did not do this on purpose. Also assume that he's already sought medical care by a LLMD because, indeed, the answer is:
absolutely possible that the ticks could have been infected and, if so, very likely that would infect anyone consuming their guts.
Still, not jumping to conclusions, if the ticks were not infected, there could be another reason for his illness but it's just that the most obvious and strongest possibility - and life threatening (due to the direct and broad mode of entry - should be assessed.
This is not about being stupid at all (I really must believe). However, it is about being uneducated in the matter or just careless. Or too cavalier, taunting fate?
The smart person now, though, would be seeing the best LL advice. There are some tick borne infections that can be life threatening in a matter of days with the serious symptoms described.
The doctor MUST be told that hands were not washed, etc. so that all things might be considered.
Food and food prep will be questioned.
Do look at the possibility of food poisoning instead or - or in addition to - tick borne infection.
Another - instead of or in addition to: E. coli or other infections that came come from "ate without washing his hands" for days. [Does he have some memory issues?]
[ 10-17-2014, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- Vanilla Bean,
Five days now since the tick incident? If I count correctly.
I see this is your very first post here. I'm so sorry for the reason you are here and now realize that you may not know what "LL" means and need to come up to speed very fast ??
It is too soon to test for lyme.
It is too soon to test for lyme.
Most doctors even in hospital setting will not take lyme very seriously, and they are actually quite ignorant about its complexity. Still . . . sometimes they get it right, at least enough to start.
Coinfections MUST also be considered.
Be clear with them that this was in Eastern PA. And they dog's dx.
That is an endemic area (although there are no "safe" places but most doctors tend to want to consider only endemic areas).
the symptoms of your husband are very serious and MUST be attended to immediately by the best medical care you can access right now.
I really don't want to mention this but you are likely aware of the hysteria that abounds around ebola right now. So, when you call for medical advice, be ready to state whether you / he have not been out of the country or in any way even remotely exposed.
They will ask if he recently took a flight, etc. If so, have the flight numbers and details at hand. Just be prepared to go through that - with the fever and loose bowels, it must be asked. Some educated thinking back needs to be done, just in case but don't go into all that panic on TV.
This is something most likely contracted on the camping trip. Lyme & other TBD top of list to consider.
The connection with your dog may help sway a doctor into taking this more seriously, too.
But if they do an Elisa test and it comes back negative, do not accept that. It's a terrible test. and
It is too soon to test for lyme, anyway.
There are other TBD (tick borne infections) that they may consider but first, they need to also consider other possibilities at the same time.
for a start. But he needs to get to medical care ASAP. He may not have time to sort out a "LLMD" right now. But, if lyme, he'll only go so far with regular doctors.
Connect with your local lyme support group.
Best of luck to you both. -
[ 10-17-2014, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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FOOD POISONING - Reference and Educational Links -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- Assumptions are hard to avoid. I assumed this was a camping trip. You don't say that but the not washing hands for days implies that . . .
and yet, it might have involved hunting. If so, this is also VERY important to consider, again an either . . . AND / or possibility.
If so, Contact with ill animal -- (or even their urine / fecal matter in the water supply)?
I'd also call the hunting or game licensing agency.
Call the COUNTY HEALTH DEPT. for where he was and ask if there have been any particular illness issues there with animals or people. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Vanilla Bean: My husband crushed 5 black legged deer ticks in Eastern PA with the top of his water bottle. Did not wash water bottle throughout the two days afterward.
- Still trying to figure out how he "consumed" it, if it was on the TOP of his water bottle??---or am I just assuming the bottle had a lid on it?
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Keebler
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- Good question.
I assumed since "consumption" was stated with such certainty - then came pictured in my mind was one of those stainless steel or very hard plastic water bottles with a pull open / push close drinking valve that could very well be used as some sort of crushing tool.
Another matter to clarify. Life is just full of questions, eh?
If "consumption" was implied by the lack of hand washing & food handling, that would also have to be considered but not quite as imperative as drinking tick guts.
Not sure how long infection might survive on hands but if unwashed for days, there would be "media" that may envelope & harbor infection longer than on clean hands where air exposure & light might help decrease microbes. -
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Lymedin2010
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posted
This is interesting, please keep us informed.
Posts: 2087 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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beaches
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posted
"ate without washing his hands for two days afterward. Three days afterward, he developed a fever and diarrhea. His fever and diarrhea has been fluctuating for two days."
Sounds like food poisoning to me! Never a good idea to go days without washing one's hands.
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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"He handled the water bottle, drank from it, and ate without washing his hands for two days afterward."
Forgive me, but if he's that daft that he lets two days go by without washing his hands even once, not even after using the toilet, then he's liable to come down with anything under the sun. And transmit things to you too. Divorce him.
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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beaches
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posted
Two days have passed since this person's first post here, which by anyone's account is a bit ridiculous, given that her husband supposedly hadn't washed his hands for days even after using the bathroom.
And the wife wants to know if his GI sx are Lyme-related? Really? We've all wasted too much time already on this post.
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-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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beaches
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posted
Apparently! Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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Keebler
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- Vanilla Bean,
Wonder if you even read all this and, if so, in concern, embarrassment or with laughter (as this has the makings of a sad stunt).
If this is true, there are much larger concerns than even just lyme, as point out in many links above.
The thing is, in case you are embarrassed by such event actually happening, well, it's not beyond what some might do. I've seen a totally uneducated guy (doing a very stupid thing on YouTube) allow ticks to bite him. There are some who are not quite "informed" - shall we say.
Aside from the "tick crush" though, I can only assume that anyone who goes that length of time without hand washing has that as a routine, even at home.
I wanted to think there must be some kind of attitude of super powers and, if so, that is nothing for you to be embarrassed by but it's a wake up call for change.
I don't want to believe this was a hoax but as you've not returned, it seems like that. I happened to be watching some TED TALKS last night and when I saw this one, thought of you.
In case this really happened, please see this video, share it with your husband and explore just why this is so important. A bar of soap can saves lives. Lack of use can cost lives - on any continent, any country.
Dr. Myriam Sidibe promotes hand-washing with soap, setting up partnerships with governments, companies and communities to promote this simple, cheap, powerful disease-fighting tactic.
Handwashing with soap is the most effective & inexpensive way to prevent diarrheal & acute respiratory infections, which take the lives of millions of children in developing countries.
Together, they are responsible for the majority of all child deaths.
Global Handwashing Day was originally created for children and schools,but can be celebrated by anyone promoting handwashing with soap.
Each year on October 15, over 200 million people are involved in celebrations in over 100 countries around the world -
[ 10-21-2014, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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steve1906
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posted
If this was a (hoax), I don't think she would have mentioned her dog being treated for Lyme disease.
We have many members that ask quetions and never relpy back. I'm sure they have their reasons.
If your dog got Lyme then your husband could have too.
If you're still logging in let us know how he's doing?
Steve
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
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beaches
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posted
Well it's now day 3. When someone is THAT concerned, they'd likely be back by now.
. . . Only about two-thirds of the men observed washed their hands after using the restroom at Turner Field — the lowest rate for any of the locations cited in the observational study and survey on the hand-washing habits of Americans.
The study, conducted every few years, was released by the American Society for Microbiology and the American Cleaning Institute at a microbiology conference in Boston. . . .
. . . Consider: 20 percent of people using the restrooms at Pennsylvania Station and Grand Central Terminal in New York did not wash their hands. . . .
. . .The hand-washing rate dips to 89 percent for those using the facilities at home, according to the phone survey. . . . -
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Ellen101
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Honestly if this was a legitimate post with some of the comments I could see the poster being hesitant to reply.
I would like to think that perhaps the husband forgot the water bottle was used for the ticks and that since there was no running waer on the camping trip a hand sanitizer was used???
Who knows but we have people posting about drinking their own urine here too so who are we to judge....
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lpkayak
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posted
I dont know. I took my posts down cuz i dont want to be part of negativity. I thought i remembered vanilla bean. But she only has one post...so it could be legit or not
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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LisaK
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posted
if you all knew how many people don't wash after using a bathroom, you would...... uh.....
never mind.
just know for certian, that MANY MANY humans do not wash and the considerable amount are men who actually have to (probably ) hold something when they do go!!!
there are drs that don't even wash between patients and like my hubby's ditsy eye dr that touched his herpes eye with NO GLOVES nor did he see her wash,
it behooves me to think that there wouldnb't be people that hike or hunt for days that go unwashed in all ways especially hunters that don't use soaps, etc thus giving a scent to their prey!
My thought about this is wondering how a water bottle could crush ticks. I have never been able to crush any in my entire life! I thought they were uncrushable?
anyway, regardless, I hope if this is a real person they seek medical help as they surely got something from it all
and maybe the new poster is busy dealing with a dying husband an dnot too concerened about coming here to look at what WE have to say!?
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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steve1906
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posted
Members come and go, that’s their option.
In the future, try and give members the benefit of doubt.
I remembered that user name also (Vanilla Bean)
– So I did a little research –
She also posted this same question on “Neuro Talk”, and she did respond to those users that tried to help her.
I hope her husband has learned something about washing his hands.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Keebler
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- Glad to hear they sought medical care but I strongly disagree with what they were told.
Vanilla Bean posted on 10-19 at the other site:
"We have gotten a number of opinions including doctors and there is consensus that he could not have contracted Lyme because he did not get bit." (end quote)
My reply: Not true about the tick having to bite you if you consume - or even came in contact by mouth with even a tiny bit of its/their stomach contents or blood or anything in the crushed stuff of it all.
No need for a bite then. I hope they remain vigilant about this.
For those above wondering how a water bottle can crush a tick, young ticks can be crushed. Only the older ones become hard backed.
The kind of water bottle I have - very strong stainless steel with a stainless steel valve at the top - could be used to crush ticks, as a tool for various tasks in food prep improvisation, etc.
She did not describe the type of water bottle but if he used the lid to crush ticks and their guts were all over it, ANY design can then allow transmission of infection to travel along to the part where the mouth makes contact for a drink of water, and even into the water.
I hope he improves. -
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Keebler
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posted
- I just stumbled upon this while reading over at the BBC site. Very interesting. I've learned a few things beyond just food that might be moldy (mouldy UK spelling):
Scroll all the way down, notice the part about punctures in apples.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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steve1906
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posted
No Problem, I guess their is a God!
Steve
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
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Keebler
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posted
- The moldy food article has to do with what other things could be going on. The doctor mentioned (at other site) possible food poisoning (or flu) and if camping, moldy food could also be possible as storage is often spotty on such trips.
I just came across it, it's a brand new article with some new insight. But, IMO, bad food (or flu) would be in addition to tick guts, not necessarily the only thing going on. -
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LisaK
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keebler, I like this from the article: "As I discovered in last week's episode of Trust Me I'm a Doctor, cooking starchy foods and then cooling them down changes their structure, so they become more resistant to the enzymes in our gut that break carbohydrates down.
So if you eat cold pasta your body will absorb fewer calories, making this a dieter's dream.
What's even more surprising is that if you take cold pasta and reheat it, then it becomes even more "resistant", producing a 50% lower rise in blood glucose than fresh pasta. "
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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Keebler
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posted
- Lisa,
Interesting, I had not seen that. It's still from a refined flour, though and still not the best food for the calories. I have never found a gluten-free pasta that works cold, they are like rubber cold.
Still, I'd rather stick with black, red, wild rices, quinoa, millet, buckwheat or amaranth. Much more nutritious all the way around than even brown rice pasta. These other whole foods are all good hot or cold.
No reason to ever eat pasta again, the way I see it. And, oh, there is spaghetti SQUASH. So many other things to put pasta sauce on for that flavor. Eggplant, too. Zucchini. So many things besides pasta. -
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LisaK
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posted
yes keebler. I have rice intollerence though so I cannot eat it all the time. must alternate. it makes me feel crazy if I eat it two days in a row. I am hoping treatment for all this tick stuff helps calm that.
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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Keebler
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posted
- This diverts from the thread's topic still, key detail for others, too.
Lisa,
Really, there is no food we should eat two days in a row, some say. And some say cook fresh at each meal, no leftovers as - even in the fridge - mold can grow on leftovers.
But, if you are intolerant of a food, it should be off your list (find alternatives). You don't want to put your body under that stress every time you eat something that your body has already told you to avoid.
But it may not be the actual food, but additives, source, etc.
Some rice "box mixes" with flavor packets contain gluten, msg, etc. Avoid any flavor packets. Spanish or Mexican Rice is especially suspect.
Broth "cubes" or packets are also usually very deceptive and mostly MSG in disguise.
Even if none of the processed kinds are what you are "intolerant" to,
1. Be mindful, of how complex vs. simple it is and the glycemic index regarding that, if over-cooked (closer to sugar), your "intolerance" could be a blood sugar high and then drop . . .
left-overs (mold) . . .
or if the amount eaten tipped the glycemic index regarding its balance with LOTS and LOTS of veggies, a good protein and a good fat. 1/4 cup is about right to 2 full servings of veggies, some protein and fat. Certainly no more than 1/3 cup of even the most complex rice at a full meal.
2. Have you tried other kinds of rice?
I assume white rice has been out of your life for sometime by now. Still, even some brown rices are treated with antifungals or other treatments so you may need to try different brands.
Even some organic brown rice may have some kind of treatment to keep it from clumping in the bag, a friend of mine found when she could not tolerate it. Had various brands tests by a lab to find out that some were coated, some were not. She found one that worked well for her.
Also, I forgot brown rice long, long ago. I find it too close to white compared to the really dark rices.
Black and Red are much heartier, very different. Lotus Foods seems the best brand to start with. From there, you can even find these in bulk bins in some good food markets.
Still, there are other choices:
Wild rice is not a rice at all, but a grass.
Buckwheat GROATS (a legume), Millet, Amaranth, Quinoa (all seeds). -
[ 10-24-2014, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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LisaK
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"if you are intolerant of a food, it should be off your list (find alternatives). You don't want to put your body under that stress every time you eat something that your body has already told you to avoid. "
yes, I have been tested and I am sensative or allergic almost everything- so it would be impossible for me to avoid all that makes me have some kind of symptom!
haha
I buy only organic rices. I use almost all organics when possible and cook from scratch mostly.
I do mess up and then try an dget back on track.
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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