Topic: dr IQ. are they as smart as we think they are????
LisaK
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..... well, I mean as smart as OTHER people think they are as we here on lymnet know the smart ones are far and few between!
I was recently remembering hearing , about 10 years ago, that the average medical Dr IQ was around 120 and I wanted to look that up and see today becasue a person I know was talking about dumb drs.
I found these articles and thought someone may find this interesting here on lymnet.
IQ or not, I guess it all depends on many factors if that dr is able to truly help a patient. I am sure not many of them use that high IQ to the best advantage for the medical society. or for patient care.
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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lpkayak
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Im not sure its iq that matters. I have some docs who are friends and they are really torn. They have familues...young children to raise
They have a job...career....but all the rules are changing. They cant do wht they have been taught is correct. They are not allowed to use theur brauns and educ s tion to figure out problems
They are told by ama and insueance companies what they can and cannot do and there are consequences. If they dont
Drug companies woo them in other ways
They have huge debt from schiol and primaries especially dont make thst much money
I used to hate...hate....hate...docs after what my family and i went thru with the lyme. Until i got to know some personaly i didnt understand what thry are goingvthru
They are forced ti tske the hippocratic oath but if the folliwcit they can lose their jobs
Im not talking abiut the idsa a holes who are really corrupt ...making money at the expense of the masses losing their heath abd lives
Im just saying its not a simple problem
There are new jobs that put ppl who arent that smart in a position to treat sick ppl. All they do is put sx into a little computer nd it tells themwhat pill to prescribe
One job is called 'prescriber"
Others are like assistants. Or you get a "nurse" who isnt an r n...
When recovering from double knee reolacement aides would come in who didnt know how to use anybof the equipment. I wss dopef up and in severe pain but had to teach them what to do
Our whole health care system.is disgusting...but good ppl have gotten caght up in ut
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
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- In defense of good people who go into medicine for the right reasons - and most doctors do - it's more the system that is messed up than their thought process.
Pharmaceutical companies design the coursework for medical colleges now - the way medicine is taught - in large part - and the rigors of that are just out of bounds.
Doctors are taught to not think outside the narrowly constructed "memorizeable" boxes, actually. They are seriously held back in many ways. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- Across the board doctor bashing does not feel comfortable. It's important to understand that most of them are good intelligent people -- and that the way the system is set up can really tear them down - from so many different angles.
Of course, some are not good doctors and some are demeaning or worse. Those of use here have seen the worst.
But doctor bashing in general is not the way to change things. Bashing any entire group of individuals across the board is just not fair -- just for their being doctors.
Criticizing specifics (as with the IDSA, IOM, etc.) that is very different.
Coming to terms with how the bad doctors get that way - understanding it at least - avoiding those doctors, well, that does make sense. And to help change what's not right.
All doctors cannot be painted with the same brush. But they are all in trouble, serious trouble and kept from being able to be the best they could be. Sigh. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Razzle
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I think there should be a class-action law suit against insurance co's for practicing medicine without a license.
I mean, they dictate what options a doctor can talk with a patient about for every diagnosis code. If there's no code for the patient's symptoms, then there is no treatment allowed by the insurance co.
And for those ins. co's that don't let people go to doctors without using the insurance, that's just wrong.
Just my opinion...
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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randibear
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yes there are good ones. my colon surgeon andgastro are top notch. course so is their hospital. never encountered a rude or bad person.
mine were at a charity hospital and it's been probably 15 years or more since I've been there. now I go to a great one.
we realize there are bad apples in every barrel. jus wish they didn't impact us so much.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Razzle: I think there should be a class-action law suit against insurance co's for practicing medicine without a license.
- I remember when the change came in the early 90's... I knew it was all going to be downhill from there on out.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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randibear
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well i can tell you flat out i got better treatment when I had bcbs and tricare prime than I do on medicare.
and that's no lie. im getting a bill every time I turn around. I've lost my ob g yn, eye dr, dentist, neurologist cause they won't take medicare.
but thats insurance not the dr.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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LisaK
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hey, I never said dr "bash". just that most are not as intelligent as most people think they are or should be.
I love some of my drs. and all that. I am not sure why people are thinking I posted dr bashing. I only thought it was interesting the websites I found. like this info:
Losing it: Doctors, as well as lawyers, accountants and other professionals, are all less intelligent than their generational counterparts
..."research found that as poor children in the 1970s lost the chance of a good education - often blamed on the abolition of grammar schools - they were not able to reach the top professions.
Instead, the places were filled by those from wealthier families - who were not always as naturally gifted.
The researchers from Bristol University based their findings on IQ tests taken by ten and 11-year-olds as part of two major surveys into the lives of children born in 1958 and 1970.
They found a decline in IQ among those in the best-rewarded and highest-status professions between the two generations. It means professionals now in their 50s are likely to be brighter than those in their late 30s. "
and the 3rd page I posted is the furthest from dr bashing there is...... drs found to have the highest average IQ of all the other professions in the list.
when I said "far and few between" I was refering to the smart drs. not the smart average person . there is a difference. if the average IQ of everyone in the world is 90-110, and the range of IQ for drs (according to this list) is 106-132, well then that is what I was meaning. I can tell the difference between the 106s and the 132s, and the 132s are over booked and too busy to help people the way they could in the olden times. at least that is my personal experience.
out of 40+ drs over the years of my misdiagnosis, only 1 of them was "smart" enough to actually listen to themselves and question the Elisa.
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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droid1226
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"In defense of good people who go into medicine for the right reasons - and most doctors do - it's more the system that is messed up than their thought process.
Pharmaceutical companies design the coursework for medical colleges now - the way medicine is taught - in large part - and the rigors of that are just out of bounds."
LisaK
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posted
I just think someone with a "higher" IQ would think to buck the system. that's all.
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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droid1226
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Speaking of. As Keebler said earlier, the same day I see this headline.....
droid1226
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You cannot think that Glaxo doesn't influence the curriculum there at UNC Med School now that they built a house on campus under the guise, or even, opportunistically to say "we are looking to cure AIDS"
Especially when the word "Ally" is used in the title.
droid1226
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Also, when it comes to IQ, it means nothing when you are being wined and dined, having vacations bought for you, your whole staff having catered lunches bought for you. All so your Dr. can prescribe the Pharm's particular drug.
We've all seen it. I've even been cut off in line at the Dr's so a drug rep can schedule a lunch 2 months in advance to see the Dr.
Here's a former sales rep from the pharmaceutical industry. He literally had unlimited funds to "woo" Dr's as his mom was dying of cancer. Made him rethink it all.
lpkayak
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Lisa...one of the docs i was thinking of was my primary about tenyears ago for three years. She was new to me cuz i went out of work on dusabiuty and mived to a new area so needed a new doc. I was leaving a wonderful very intellugent primary who at one point worked in the office of an llmd so the bar was set reallyhigh for this new doc
She was really smart as well as caring. She had two small children and she and her husband opened a practice by themselves so they could have as much control as possuble
It wasnt a big business place run by a hospital like so many are now
I was complicated but it didnt bother her. She respected me and gave me some odd things i saud i needed-armour, cortef...she kept an eye on testing and regular prumary stuff. But we sort of became friends
There were times i saw her frustrated cuz there were more drug reps in her waitung riom.than patuents
We had some short conversations about lyme and i gave her resources and she actually asked me qyestions. I knew she cared. I knew she was smart. I knew she hated the changes.
Insurance...pressure from.drug companies...she saved my life once...and she was comfortsble enough to let me see her thriw her hands up and say how can we do this...they want us to see
ppl and have them in and out of office in 15 min....same pressure with patients in hospital...dont admit...send them home early...all different than what she was taught in medical school
And she would say. We dont know what to do...we have babies to raise...but we cant make ends meet if we dont both see 4 patients an.hour all day...and then we need babysitter...that wasnt part of the plan
Then i notuced changes....more in and out...less chatting but would still say something to me almost in a whisper even tho the door was closed...like once she said dont ever let them dx you with ms...dint ever take the medicine they have for rhat
See...she knew...she was smart...but she still got pulled in...not because sge wanted to go along but because they both had all this college debt and new practice debt and two children...
Ive lived enough to know sometimes you have to do things you dont want to do...things you never thought you would have ti do.
Once i had a goal of luving debt free. Ha! And when i marrird for the second time the plan was we would have two kids right away and we would both work half time...opposite shifts so we didnt need childcare. Huh. That didbt work either
One of the last times i made an appt with her...before i moved...the receptionust let me know they were gone a whole week...got to take the kids to disney world-a perk from drug
company....i forgit how i found that out....but i know i did and i know they had been swept up in this crazy new medical system
Where docs who would prefer ti work less so they can parent their kids are forced to put their patients on an assembly line...in and out...and have quality time with their kids every couple of months
I have a family member who us a bigwig at a bug health insurance company and i know furst hand what these perks can be like...incredible over the top luxury...what if tht money went to actually take care of a sick person!?!?!?
Anyway....i git off on a rant....but it is often impossuble for docs With good ibtentions to do what they really believe in
Just like my hysband and i. In order ti survuve we both needed full time jibs and a cimmute as well
Ok rant over. My son has a good friend who is a doc also struggling the same
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Makes me wonder how my doctor can spend 30 minutes with me each time and never get rushed?
He works independently, so maybe that is why?
I do see drug reps in his office, but he knows not to prescribe certain drugs. One of his associates even said he will not prescribe fluoroquinolones anymore.
He also does not give flu shots anymore. I found that to be VERY interesting.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Keebler
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- Not just grants for major projects (as the articles droid posted above illustrates and which are based no so much in learning about disease as in drugs they have in mind to make a mint) . . .
but also professors' salaries, buildings, operational funds often are tied to pharmaceutical companies.
Many of the medical students' tuition scholarship / grant monies also come from pharmaceutical companies. So they have them in their beds from day one.
They make sure the medical students "learn" only what the pharmaceutical masters want them to know . . . only partly by "freeing" up professors from designing the course materials but by buying their loyalties via tuition help, there are strings attached.
Insurance companies also have their own incentives and hooks. -
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lpkayak
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I know first hand how good the colleges are at "teaching"...or training...or to me it seems like brain washing these students
I raised my kids ti be independent thinkers. It was encouraged in their very good high school and they were pushed and chalenged to question what they were taught andvfind the truth
Thats how they left me. I dont know what happened at college but they really changed. They get very emotionaly involved if i question what they now believe to be true. They cant even.have a
conversation about it. They get defensive and wont have anintelligent conversation...something they did a lot in high school
They just dismiss me and what i say the same way the docs i (we)
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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Do...
Their spouses are the same
It doesnt help to push. But i have found if i back off they eventualy come to me and if i mostly lusten sometimes i cansneak an important point in
They are smart. I hope as they live and experience a little more they wull see im not crazy or stupid or totally out of touch
In the past when they "get" wht i am saying they will admit to a misunderstanding or thinking wrong
Im afraid that wont happen to the masses tho. It really feels like we are mass producing robots who dont believe thinking is a good thing
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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LisaK
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kayak what a great story. thanks for sharing that.
I know some smart drs now, and now that I am remembering I have met a good handful of good ones. they have their own practice. they charge way less than the others because they know reality. they take extra time and actually have conversations. they are far and few between.
yes, I think babies can complicate the scenario, and that may be an important variable in recognizing a sidetracked smart-er dr, but the above average ones- the ones that don't get swept away- that is whom I am refering to .
they are out there. I even know a young mom dr. that left the system to focus on wellness and lyme and healing of the person in all ways because she actually had a patient that trusted her. trusted her to read the stack of papers about lyme so that she could treat the patient .
and she did. then she got bit herself and looked even deeper and realized the anger within herself towards the establishment and the lies and lies and lies taught to her in med school of how 2 weeks of doxy takes it all away.
and then there is the guy that I went to see that told me how he became a dr. he was in the army and saw how the army doc was treating all the soldiers with meds but not trying to figure the reason. he decided at that moment to go to college; to be a dr, and not just a dr, but to be one that would find out why and how and what to do to heal like drs should. and he did this.
most of these drs dont even have the regular drugs in their offices. they have their own brands, or have other higher quality than the crap those drug reps push out. stuff that heals, NOT covers up.
of course, the main reason I was exposed to so many of these good drs, even though they are defiinitely far and few, is that I have no insurance.
insurance keeps drs dumb. insurance keeps patients sick. at least that is what I have come to realize, and now when someone gasps when I tell them how I have no insurance I actually am feeling so relieved inside. so free.
of course I dare not tell of those feelings as I will be seen as even more of a nut than I already am.
what a sad world we live in.
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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droid1226
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Lyme/coinfections/candida is the giving tree that keeps giving.
My GP works for the major hospital here in Cleveland is the guy who missed my original diagnosis when I had a rash on my chest, Idk if that would have saved me or not BUT this guy feels sort or indebted to me because I've kept him as my GP & he's seen all the other paperwork & labs from other dr's.
He's told me that if his child had what I had, he'd seek out the best guy in the country & treat aggressively as possible.
His words "My hands are tied. If I treat you like I suspect I should, I'll get disciplined if they see doxycycline geting prescribed for months at a time. I get audited."
He's admitted my situation has taught him a lot. He's very candid & works & has 12 other Dr's under him in the small satellite office he runs out here in the suburbs.
We've had the most honest conversations I've had w/ any of the dozens of Dr's I've seen. Same thing that Kayak said. He told me he makes 80k. He's in his younger 40's & is still paying off school loans. He told me he has other ventures & has even taken finance classes because that's where his interests really lie. He only went to med school because his dad was a Dr. but ended up being good at it (that's still to be determined). He's a regular guy.
Basically, the system is bigger than him. It's bigger than the smartest Dr's out there with good intentions. They only know what they've been taught.
He's admitted that he's institutionalized by the system.
randibear
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seems every time I go to my gp there's a drug rep pulling their little cart going right in like they own the place. never wait...ju waltz right.in
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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lpkayak
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Lisa i understand a agree with what you say. Im glad you know there are some good ones out therr
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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Droid i really want to believe it can all be changed
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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droid1226
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It all can be changed. But it needs addressed first. We aren't even doing that. There needs to be checks & balances. No one's addressing it yet but I truly believe in the end, science & evidence will beat out agenda driven co's and politicians.
posted
Doctors are just people. I went to college with a lot of PreMed students in my biology and chemistry classes. I was a Biochemistry Major. They were adamant about getting straight A's any way they could because they couldn't get into a medical school if they didn't. Many stayed up for all-nighters, memorizing entire chapters so they could ace the tests but couldn't remember half of it 3 weeks later. Others had photographic memories and not a lick of sense. About 25% of them were truly brilliant tho! I did almost get beat up by 3 of them one day in the hall after the MidTerm Exam when the Prof announced there would be no grading curve because I had gotten every single question correct including the extra credit questions on all his tests, lol. I told them Pre-Med isn't a major, I'm Pre-Med too, so deal with it!
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droid1226
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Good. We need more Pre-med students to have an innate curiousness to seek out information on their own. Like on these forums. Whether it be because it affects them directly or not.
The criteria for an IQ test is arguable at best. There's no measure of intuition, evidence based experience, or communication skills. All of which are needed in medicine. I don't want my life to be in the hands of a bookworm who has zero gumption or the the inability to communicate.
I definitely shouldn't know more about infectious diseases than an ID Dr. & I'm sure I do, a lot of us on this forum are more aware of how the human body works than a lot of Drs. That's not right.
There's many factors in IQ.
I have a friend who's probably a legitimate genius He's able to get any engineering job he wants and he's hardly taken any college courses. He can't take tests or speak in front of others.
In order to be a Dr, you need a multitude of skills. IQ is just one.
LisaK
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hahaaa, I took my son to dr yesterday and said "gastroparesis" in a sentence to the nurse and she was blown away that I knew that word and wasn't in the medical field!
she actually commended me for being curious and finding info on my own. I have never met a nurse that said THAT before!! most say "stop looking on line!!!"
o brother.
anyway, the reverse could be true too droid....
people that AREN'T drs trying to be them. just because you are smart (high IQ) and have other gifted areas like compassion and memory and etc, doesn't mean you can treat and cure all things. I don't know which is worse- a lousy dr or a lousy "medie"....
get it.... like "foodie" but medie???? gee I hope someone here knows what a foodie is or I am gonna look dumb
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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Especially with emerging dz, give me a doc with TIME to read new research, listen to patients and think about my case, and the the humility to realize that med science is flawed, and your patients can teach you sometimes... over a doc with a genius iq and all the mainstream recommendations (always lagging behind) memorized. The poor gp's have zero time to think anymore.
Droid, I think you hit the nail on the head with the curriculum comment. As a veterinarian in NC, even walking into all appts at Duke, UNC etc with a great vector-borne dz education and making sure they had lyme babesia, bartonella, west Nile, EEE etc on my differential list, I was quoted back info on these infections >a decade old - especially bartonella.
Even looking at my own blood smear and saying there is a repeatable object in my blood cells that is not artifact, and I don't know what it is, and we may not have molecular diagnostics for it yet, but look, there it is...
The residents at UNC for example tried but couldn't look at my slides because they had no immersion oil I. The hospital. Students aren't even taught blood smears in med school anymore. A cheap, useful diagnostic tool lost or specialized into pathology only.
The head of ID even said point blank that they couldn't change tick-borne treatment policy bc their focus is HIV, and that's where the money comes from. We're breeding a new generation to prioritize HIV.
It's even more crazy when you look at an epidemiology map of canine tick-borne dz and see NC has one of the highest tick burdens in the country.
Anyway, didn't mean to get off topic, but I don't think iq is the problem. We've all surely dropped 30 points since Google remembers everything for us.
LisaK
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IQ isn't how much you know.
It is how much you are ABLE to know.
there is a big difference.
some high IQ people wash windows. some are teachers of middleschool. some don't even work. ....
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3558 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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