Kara Tyson
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posted
Libertarians see it as a states right issue. Hands down.
From a legal point of view, Roe vs. Wade should be open to debate. Since Roe now admits that she lied under oath.
[ 21. October 2005, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Kara Tyson ]
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Andie333
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First of all, nobody can be sure how any Supreme Court appointee will vote on an issue; theoretically, legal consideration, interpretation and rule will trump personal beliefs on the court, though it doesn't always work that way.
If Miers were to be appointed, and if she and Roberts were to both sanction the overturning of Roe v. Wade, it's my understanding there would stlil not be enough votes in the court to overturn it. Of course, if Roberts were in favor of that, I'm honestly not sure how much influence he would have as the Chief Justice.
I am old enough to remember pre-Roe v Wade days. In fact, I actually wrote an article about a right to life meeting at the Hyatt Hotel in Birmingham in the early 70s. I was a reporter then for one of the two daily papers in that city. I still have notes from that first meeting.
Andie
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Heather- isn't it alarming that we trust in a few powerful individuals appointed to a court to decide for us whether abortion is right or wrong? Even if it becomes state decided- isn't it still concerning that something of that nature is left to them?
Actually- to me it seems horrendous that this is an issue at all. The fact is that before most people know they are pregnant there is a heart beating in that "fetus" (which could also be called a baby were individuals and agencies not needing to disassociate themselves from the fact that they are indeed ending life with abortion)
Like you, I am not interested in a battle here- yet it seems necessary to state that if there is a heart beating it is a life and who are we as women, government agencies, non profit agencies to say that it is our choice to end such a life?
I think the greater issue to be discussed here is the issue of control. Isn't it true that the outrage regarding the overturn of Roe V Wade is about someone taking away OUR RIGHT as women to terminate a pregnancy (end a life) based upon the fact that it's our body and our choice? (And if you think about it it's not our body we're destroying)
If you want to get into the political side of things- (which really isn't necessary as it doesn't impact whether or not a beating heart indicates life) but will mention that the problems currently being faced regarding Social Security and the elderly receiving funds from the government wouldn't be an issue were the 30 million + abortions in the last 30 years never performed.
Government agencies allow abortion and then complain that there is insufficient work force from where to take taxes.
And on a more annoying note- when's the last time you watched a news clip about some nature group stepping in to help some species of animal from extinction or some puppy caught in the sewage drain that requires emergency medical personnel etc?? I see it all the time!! Shouldn't more of us be fending for the little lifes that people claim are "fetuses" ... aborting even up to the moment of birth?
Ahhh well, it is what it is. Everyone has a perspective and everyone thinks they are right. Despite what may change due to supreme court appointments etc...all people thinking they are right is one thing that will probably never change.
posted
Whoops... little LIVES not lifes. Whoops.
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lymie tony z
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My oldest son would have been aborted had I left it up to his grandparents and possibly his mother.
You might want to ask him about abortion. My second wife had an abortion(not preg by me). She could never get over killing her child and never thought God forgave her either...if she's still alive she's a drunken, drug taking waste.
I think it's murder...
Folks are going to do it for whatever reason and I think it's good to be legal so it's not a black market sort of thing.....
We all have free will and it's up to the individual and their respective religeous beliefs on how they act and then live with the consequences.
God will ultimately make the final decision in each individual case... It is not mine nor anyone else's responsibility or right to judge. We don't live in their shoes.
If God gives us free will then a "Supreme Court" should respect that and allow us our own "legal" right to free will as well.
Regardless how I feel about it.zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Andie333
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zman, You made a point that's always been at the heart of this issue for me:
This is an issue where my personal views are only relevant to me.
The truth is that women will always get abortions, if that's what they want to do...no matter what the law says.
The women who can afford it will fly to the Virgin Islands or to France some other place where it can be done safely and discretely. Or they'll get into a medically safe "underground" situation here.
For women in different financial and/ or supportive circumstances, they'll seek whatever options they can -- sometimes massive doses of castor oil, or knitting needles or back room very non-medical practitioners.
I knew women who pursued all the above options, for whatever reasons -- sometimes personal, sometimes pressure from boyfriends, sometimes family pressure, sometimes sheer desparate fear.
I would hate to see us back in those times again.
Andie
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Kara Tyson
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posted
Just because something is legal doesnt mean it is safe. Women continue to die in legal abortions every year. There is very little oversight on women's clinics. They are not required to have whole blood or defib equipment available.
In fact, it is not required that the Dr. is an ob/gyn. They can be a dentist who went to a seminar.
I personally think it should only be done in a hospital. Period. And the woman should be given full information. And that includes possible medical links to breast cancer and emotional damage that can result. Also, it should be required that a woman see an ultrasound.
I take a very centrist view. Many groups on the left see a woman with a blob of tissue inside her. Many groups on the right see a baby surrounded by a blob of tissue. Each pit the woman against the child.
I think also that pro women's groups should be honest about the founding of Planned Parenthood and their original goals. Margaret Sanger was a eugenist. She believed in the mandatory sterilization of blacks, jews, and retarded people.
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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heiwalove
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posted
i hate that about margaret sanger. you're right, it is always necessary to reveal and acknowledge the complexity of people, no matter how ugly.
posted
I can recall seeing the poor come in to the hospital with botched back street abortions back when I was in nursing school...which was prior to the legalization of abortion for women. The rich found other and more professional sources.
Why some people are pushing for a return to this era is beyond me. Miers filled out a questionnaire back in 1989 saying something to the effect that yes she would vote to make abortion unconstitutional...so I think that is a strong indication of what she would do. Even President Bush thinks so as he made a point of noting her church affiliation etc and said that religion played a role in his choice. Of course the fact that she has been on his payroll for the past ten years has nothing to do with it! Just think...she would have to recuse herself for any hearing on this administration and it looks like their corruptness is boiling over these days so no doubt something will wend its way to the S.C.
My own opinion is that government should have nothing to say on the matter abortion. Governments should not force anyone to have an abortion and they should not force anyone to be pregnant. It should be a matter between a woman and her physician. Not a matter between a woman and the attorney general.
The whole difference of opinion about abortion is based upon when individuals think that life really begins.... This has been argued by philosophers and thinkers since time immemorial. Some people think it begins even before conception. Some people think it begins when the sperm and egg join. Some people think it begins when the full complement of cells develops. Some people think it begins when quickening occurs Some people think it is when a fetus is capable of life (that can vary...but without modern equipment it is usually around the 8th month marker...sometimes a little earlier) Some people think that life begins at birth.
I would not want to force my opinion of when life begins on another woman. I would not want them to force their opinion on me.
The evil in this world has been almost single handedly brought about through authoritarianism and rigid dogma. I love men, my two sons are grown men and I have two grandsons...none-the-less it is a fact that Authoritarianism is almost universally engendered by and enforced by men. Not all men thank goodness.
Concise conclusion: I am against government enforced pregnancy. That is what Hitler did.
Posts: 101 | From CA, USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
CAquest- I really disagree with the term "Government enforced pregnancy". If Roe v Wade were to be overturned it wouldn't then become "Government enforced pregnancy" it would still be your choice to become pregnant... just as it is now.
The problem is that people know now that they can rely on abortion to end a pregnancy (life) should they be careless enough to get pregnant. Regardless of what is Legal or Illegal the bottom line remains that pregnancy occurs when two people have unprotected sex (and sometimes... SOMETIMES) when pretection fails. (Though statistically... that is rare.)
I just read that 2/3 of abortions occur to unmarried women. (And that is a modest estimate... I have read that figure to be up to 88%) Only 11% are reported rapes and 13% are failed protection.
It seems the problem is not with the government MAKING people remain pregnant... it's with women refusing to make choices that would protect themselves from becoming pregnant until they are ready to actually BE PREGNANT and HAVE THE BABY.
Maybe it's me and I'm sure I am naive in this but the 2/3 women aborting babies that were unmarried... well, were they to wait till they were married to have sex and therefore get pregnant... would they have aborted??
I know I know... naive. But there's validity to the "Waiting until marriage to have sex" moral principle. No babies, no STD's, no AIDS... and yet we just hand the kids (and I do mean kids... middle school and high school) Condoms.
Kara Tyson
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Member # 939
posted
We should also be honest and admit that some women DO use abortion as birth control. There are women who have multiple abortions one after another.
I view it as a medical issue except for late term. If a woman's life is in danger then do a c section. But there is no medical reason to deliver a child leaving the head in, stab the baby in the neck with a pair of scissors, suck the brains out and sell the tissue to a lab for profit.
There is no excuse for that. If you did it to a dog you would go to jail. That is clear cut infanticide.
I think it is equally important for the other side to be honest...black children, mixed raced children, and handicapped chidren dont get adopted. Most of the time they go to foster care. If the mother's keep the babies they most likely are going to end up on welfare.
And I dont approve of trickery to convince women not to have an abortion. I have a relative who is pro life, but dropped out of a pro life group locally because of some of their dishonesty. They would go to abortion clinics and offer the women money to not have an abortion--but the checks were fake. They just used them as a ploy to delay. The group also has a tele number advertised as performing abortions..but they dont. They just lure the women in to get them to change their minds.
[ 22. October 2005, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Kara Tyson ]
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heiwalove
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posted
CAquest-
you said, concisely and beautifully and without attack, EXACTLY what i wanted to say. THANK YOU, and praise god/dess that women your age (NOT meant to sound derogatory - on the contrary, only celebratory) who think like you still exist.
posted
I think it may be just where you are living that is making the difference in who adopts black children. In my state, I see MANY white families that are adopting black children.
That is the crux of this, how many families are waiting to adopt babies in this country, irregardless of their race or ethnicity?
How many will pay any amount for a chance to have a child they can call their own?--or already are? Adoption prices are horrible.
If the women who are having multiple abortions (used for birth control) were convinced to go thru the pregnancy and delivery, there would be less abortions and more adoptions....in my opinion.
heiwalove
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posted
protection fails a lot more often than you'd think. in addition, with the egregious lack of REAL and INTELLIGENT sexual education in this country (ie, the proliferation of so-called "abstinence only" education), many teenagers possess very little knowledge of what safe sex means or encompasses.
if i were a teenager and became pregnant, i would abort. thankfully, i'm blessed with a mother who would fully support such a decision (yes, my mother is pro-choice, and so am i). if i became pregnant unexpectedly now, whether through rape, botched protection, a bad decision, or any other conceivable cause, i would also abort, as soon as feasibly possible after discovering the pregnancy. these are my personal beliefs, what i know to be right at this time in my life; and i STAUNCHLY believe the government has zero right to legislate what i can or can't do with my body. i agree wholeheartedly with a previous poster: the decision whether or not to end a pregnancy should be made between a woman and her doctor only. the age-old philisophical debate of whether a life begins at conception, etc, is irrelevant. if you are personally & morally opposed to abortion, i respect your position. disagree, but respect. after all, i would never think of persuading or attempting to force you to obtain an abortion you didn't want. similarly, you have no right to prevent me or any other woman or girl from terminating an unwanted pregnancy. constitutionally speaking, it's a right-to-privacy issue which should never be infringed upon.
my stance on abortion is admittedly radical. many people don't agree with me, even some who are pro-choice. my mother is one; she says she could never personally have an abortion, though she would also never think to support legislation restricting other women's right to access. legally speaking (and in the way that counts), this makes her pro-choice; and she identifies as such. i understand, respect, and empathize that abortion can be an incredibly traumatic and painstaking decision for many women to make. for me, at least at this point in my life, i wouldn't think twice about it. now, please don't misunderstand: i would NEVER use abortion as a form of birth control. this happens rarely anyway and is a convenient and deliberately conceived lie pro-lifers like to spread around like wildfire (seriously, show me all these supposed masses of women who use abortion as birth control!). when the need arises, i'm always safe; i always use protection.
however, things happen. unpredictable things, and i refuse to feel guilty about the fact that i wouldn't be wracked with guilt should i need or decide to abort a pregnancy.
a fetus survives because of its mother. it lives inside the woman's body, leeches her nutrients, eventually puts considerable stress on her bones, muscles, and organs. in biological terms, this is most certainly not a symbiotic relationship. it is, in fact, more akin to what biologists would term parasitic.
i can hear all the horrified gasps now. she thinks precious human babies are parasites!! she really IS evil!! again, biologically speaking, until they're born (or at the very least, until they're viable), they are parasitic organisms. (i know that sounds awful and horrid and scientific. just remember: a parasite is an organism that feeds off another organism and depends upon its host organism for survival. an "organism" simply means "a living thing.")
and all this coming from a girl who adores children, who's worked with kids on and off for eight years; who wants to make working with homeless and disadvantaged youth her life's career. working with children is my passion. and someday, when i'm settled financially and ready emotionally, i want to birth my own or, preferably, adopt. no, i don't see a disconnect. i have a button pinned to my bag that explains it perfectly: "pro-choice, pro-child." **
in terms of states' rights: relegating roe v wade to states' rights would mean that most or all conservative states would have full jurisdiction to restrict/do away with laws protecting abortion and reproductive freedom.. an incredibly dangerous possibility for women in these states, who would then be forced to travel long distances to obtain proper medical abortions; which, of course, could only be afforded by the rich and middle-class, leaving poor women (once again) to fend for themselves in back alleyways all across america. **
Kara Tyson
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Member # 939
posted
Adoptions laws vary from state to state.
Many black organizations are opposed to interacial adoptions. I remember some years ago reading about a black child in DC who needed a home. Several white families from other states wanted to adopt the child. But black groups in DC prevented the adoption thru a legal requirement that all black potential homes (including foster homes) be considered first.
Many states put up major barriers to interstate adoption.
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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heiwalove
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posted
handing kids condoms and teaching real sex ed is the only REAL way to prevent pregnancy and STDs among our youth. preaching abstinence only and pretending kids won't experiment anyway is, in my opinion, very naive.
(i worked in sex ed for two years. kids ARE having sex. and it's not even necessarily unhealthy (emotionally), especially when they're teenagers - it's a natural phase of human development to experiment and discover what this thing is all about. so, we must make sure they are doing it safely. we must educate them about STD/HIV transmission and prevention. it is of utmost importance.)
Kara Tyson
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posted
I dont believe that the standard sex ed prevents pregnancy or other diseases. First off, the classes are not taught by ob/gyn's and are considered a joke by the students.
It would be better to make the students work in a daycare during the day and do school projects of having to babysit in the slum/projects for single mothers.
You learn everything you need to know about procreation/disease in Biology class. How you feel emotionally about disease is beside the point.
Teens get pregnant for many reasons and not knowing how to put a condom on is the least of them.
Teens get pregnant on purpose--yes, on purpose. The cause is much more deep. The lack of father's has a huge impact on girls. If a girl does not have non sexual love from a man..she will seek it.
Many times girls get pregnant to have something to love and other times from a fairy land ideal of life "When my boyfriend sees I am pregnant, we are going to get married, have a baby and I can dress the baby in cute clothes, have a house and live happily ever after..."
And other times it is all they know. They themselves are illegit and have never had a father around. Their mothers were illegit and they dont even have a grandfather around. Their grandmothers were illegit and they dont even have a great-grandfather around.
The concept of not having multiple babies outside of marriage is a concept totally unknown to some. I dont know how you fix that. I dont know that you can. You see it from generation to generation.
At the same time boys dont use condoms for two reasons. And it isnt because they dont know how to put one one (somehow the ancient Greeks and Romans figured it out).
The main reason is that...it doesnt feel the same. Period. End of story.
The second is that some of them view fatherhood as nothing more than sperm donation. Getting differant girls pregnant is status. It proves you are a man. They deliberatly procreate with no intention of ever supporting financially their offspring.
Issues of 'unwanted' prengancy has more to do with bodily functions above the waist than below the waist. It is a mindset.
[ 23. October 2005, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Kara Tyson ]
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lymie tony z
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posted
Hey Kara, I see now from this post and the one about the invasion of your school just where your white bread is buttered.......
Centrist, speciesiest,???which is it really?
There's definitely an IST there but hey far be it from me(unlike you) to call anyone names around here....
Herewith...yeah...not a controversial subject at all.... I may have gotten off the subject...but hey no one paid attention to my post anyway...except one intelligent person.....
It's not going to mean beans about laws of man if man wants to disobey them....or change them man will....... It's up to how one lives his/her life....
We did'nt need the verbal description of how abortions were done either Kara....I swear...you are something else....and you call me a pathetic human being????? HOHO......HA.....
zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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I have no doubt that Bush (backed by the neo-con cronies) have appointed Roberts in confidance that he wil work to overturn Roe v Wade..and coached his non-committal answers during the hearings so as to avoid some waves.
They are setting Miers up much the same way (the whole, "We can't say what we'll do" baloney).. and some of the ones upset with Miers within the Rebublican Party were mainly concerned because they had seen no record of hers to be sure she would vote to overturn. (this was before the memo and Bush's selling her strongly based on her religious stance and 'ethics')
I think we are witnessing a locking and loading od the Supreme Court and this is a very detrimental situation that will effect us long after Bush is in the slammer.
I really hope Democrats in Congress get a proper set of you-know-whats and stand up to this appointment and for the future.
No doubt she is another of Bush and Comany's lap dogs.
Unreal.
Re abortion, I am pro-choice.. for many reasons, like CA said it is in no way black or white..
yes some use it for birth control, but the great majority do not. Yes, I believe the problems with the number of abortions has to do in part with very poor educational system/support in sex and health, this should be improved in school and communities, and much more outreach for the poor, but than for that class also much needs to be done for their general condition.. economics, opportunities, drug programs, ect, ect..
but a considerable number of middle class women get abortions, as do married women, as do women who proclaim (publicly) that they are pro-life. (and that they practice abstinence)
I totally agree that government has no place in this kind of decision as they are simply not qualified to, and that noone has a right to impose their belief systems on anyone else.
Another major consideration is actually FOR the 'fetus'.. considering what kind of 'life' they will have in many circumstances.
Pro-lifers will balk that 'it is their right to life'.. but are each of you then willing to adopt one of the crack babies or a child with severe illness, child of rape or incest, or simply borne unto a mother who cannot care for the child.. would you be willing to take them yourself?
Have you thought it through beyond your ideals? Looked into individual situations without passing judgement first?
Another important consideration is the state of our society before Roe v Wade.. women will never stop having abortions and the situiation before it was legal was horrible for so many. Many pro-lifers do not even consider that, yet say they are fighting for the 'right thing'.. I don't believe they are. I believe they are fighting to impose their own ideals, not at all fighting for other human being's welfare.. or else they would have to consider many more issues in this than their own beliefs and judgements.
It is also easy to say that 'if you can't keep the baby, don't have sex'.. but that too is ignorant of all the complexities (and downfalls) within our society (and being human) that contribute, and all the cicumstances that in reality can bring women to a place where they have to face this difficult decision. It is also interesting that many who preach this or follow it do not follow that advise themselves. I also am sure many of the 'preachers' will still have the means to abortion when they need it, the means even if it becomes illegal.. whereas many women will not and will do great harm to themselves and their pregnancies.
Personally I feel there is much outside of the actual act of abortion, many surrounding issues, that if paid effort.. could reduce the number considerably and help women and the unborn in very REAL ways.
Some would rather judge and dictate, rather than jump in and find ways to actually help young women in life changing ways..
I think this is the same as any other situation where a group feels their ideals and beliefs are more 'right' than others'.. whether it be abortion, Democracy, sexual orientation, eating habits.. whatever.
It's judgement and noone has that right. Jesus taught that.
Again, I do absolutely think Bush is making true to his long time promise to evangelicals, and this is yet another collosal disaster for our society for which the way is being systematically paved.
Mo
[ 24. October 2005, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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Kara Tyson
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posted
[ 24. October 2005, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Kara Tyson ]
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LabRat
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Member # 78
posted
Last spring I had been searching for a special type of millet not offered in a seed catalog nor did I know the name of it but through the internet I found this site. I made contact and ask if they could sell me 50 lbs and for how much. The man explained that his daughter was willing but would have to allow time as it was all handwork. The seeds have to be stripped from the stem and then all the seeds have to be strained or sifted for the planter before being boxed up and shipped. He put me in contact with his young daughter and it was all very business like. I sent her a check in her name and her father said she was very excited. My seeds arrived as promised.
I don't know all the details about this family but think he has his ``natural'' family and added to it by adopting black children, looks like he has about four and everyone seems very happy. That's the important thing isn't it!
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