This is topic help the spirocytes come out of hiding in forum Medical Questions at LymeNet Flash.

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Posted by mag (Member # 8920) on :
hello everyone,
new to site and am going to a llmd for testing

i have heard of a few things you can take to get the spirocytes to come out of hiding before having a lab test drawn , i.e., niacin.

Has anyone heard of this ?? [confused]

I would love for them to all come out and die- but I know this would be an horrific herxing show. thanks for your help
Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :
Good question.

I do think the niacin could help. One of the 3 times during 5 years of illness hubby has had a rash was while he was doing saunas in the bathroom in Florida in the summertime --

plugged in a space heater and let the room heat up to about 100 degrees and gave him some niacin (can't remember the dose but was probably not much over 100 mg)and left him to sweat for 15 or 20 minutes I think it was. Also greased him up with olive oil as well.

This was before Lyme diagnosis and before he had had any antibiotics.

Of course, if you could get a scrip IGeneX has a protocol for giving antibiotics prior to testing.

Failing that, you could try goldenseal or some of the herbs from the new "Healing Lyme" book -- specifically andrographis or cat's claw. Also Artemesinin for Babesia.

Another suggestion I have read is to have blood drawn in the afternoon instead of in the morning.

Good luck.

Bea Seibert
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Bea, that was a herx from die-off.

Sweating removes zinc.

To increase your chance of a positive test...increase your Mg level.

Smallish doses often, with a little B vitamins. Throw in some lecithin.

Here's "proof":

Our own antibodies are not "perfect" fighters against Bb, why?

Characterization of the physiological requirements for the bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi by confocal microscopy.

The bactericidal effect of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but is dependent on the presence of Ca2+ and Mg2+.

Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.

The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.

PMID: 9125579

A ``novel form of antibody-organism interaction?'' I don't THINK so!

"E. Required by immunological process. Magnesium, immunity, and allergy: Mg is required for several steps of immunological reactions
1. Lymphoblastic transformation, a prerequisite of secretion of antibodies by lymphoblasts, requires Ca2+ and Mg2+
2. Mg is required for synthesis of proteins, immunoglobulins included
3. Antibody-induced complement activation is Mg dependent
4. The antigen-immunoglobulin-complement reaction induces degranulation of the mastocyte"

This may be the key...restore OUR OWN HIGHLY TARGETED ANTIBODIES.

The test measures HEALTHY antibodies. The proinflammatory cytokine, TNF alpha, goes up to rid damaged ones (one of TNF alpha's many jobs)

Picture a stalk of broccoli. The damaged "fab" portion is at the top. Only a perfect "fit" works.
Posted by Foggy (Member # 1584) on :
Abx treatment made my WB & PCP turn "CDC" +. Gave the IDSA member dubious duck a slice of humble Lyme pie. [Wink]
Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :

Yes, I do think the niacin caused a die-off reaction/herx with hubby. This would increase the odds of having a positive PCR test because it measures DNA blebs (pieces) from both live and dead Lyme bacteria if they are in the bloodstream.

ELISA and Western Blot tests do measure antibodies which you know more about than I do. Hubby apparently produces few antibodies regardless of how much IV magnesium I give him.


I guess the answer to your question depends to some degree on which type of test you will be doing.

Theoretically immune boosters could increase the odds of a positive test whether it was for an ELISA, Western Blot or PCR.

Bea Seibert
Posted by mag (Member # 8920) on :
hi everyone,

thanks for the information!!!
after reading some of the info on die off - iw as sure there had to be some thing to scare those Bb out of their hiding

-i am finally going to an LLMD miracles happen.
it sounds like the doc will use the Igenex lab and screen for Bb /babesia - I will try some of these supplements

The symptoms are the usual - i started out with neurological symptoms immmediately last july- a real nightmare! nerves dying in my teeth, severe pain in the muscles - terrible stiff neck,
twitching, loss lots of weight, diarrhea and ringing ears with confusion

so i hope they will have an answer for me
thanks for all the help

funny thing - i know the help comes from real experiences and not a book--thanks!!

Posted by JeffM (Member # 8919) on :
i have heard of a few things you can take to get the spirocytes to come out of hiding

Yeah, talk to em. Make them your friend. Convince them to come out of the hiding places and breathe the frest air!
Posted by hatsnscarfs (Member # 6562) on :
For me exercise & stretching bring them out of hiding big time. Stretching the waist especially brings them out. If I stretch too much the herx is too big. Moving parts that hurt really brings them out but of course it hurts!
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Exercise = lactic acid.

Already too much of a problem.
Posted by mag (Member # 8920) on :
i can talk to them bugs
but i am not sure they understand me when i tell them "get out"
yes excercise does cause the herxing for me

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