Does anyone have experience with the herbal antibiotic protocol using Artemisin and Coptis? I'm curious how it worked for people and how long it took to see a change. Thanks,
Posted by morningnewsman (Member # 5987) on :
I've heard they take a while to kick in????
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
I have taken both Artimininin and Artemisia annua, and I feel the Artemisia annua is doing more than the Artemisinin did for me. I herx with the Artemisia annua but didn't notice anything with the Artmisinin except being tired and feeling a little flushed in the face.
Just my experiences.
I haven't heard of Coptis before. WHAT is IT?
Are you just trying to treat Babesia, or what?
Jim Posted by morningnewsman (Member # 5987) on :
I don't know what the Coptis is....just one of the herbal supplements I've been prescribed by my LLMD.
The past couple weeks I've been on the Chinese herbal stuff. Sometimes I think it's not helping, but during other times I think some of my old symptoms are lessening or disappearing. But new ones are coming on, so I don't know whether they are herxs or relapses of my full-blown Lyme. Tough to tell. Thanks Jim.
Posted by Nori (Member # 8983) on :
Rick - i have a friend who started about 4 weeks ago on artemesia annua and coptis for lyme He was really herxing and last week had a few good days where muscle weakness and droopy eyelid and some other symptoms were not there for the first time in a long time.
Coptis is a potent chinese antibiotic. I gargle with it if I get a sore throat/cold and away it goes.
Posted by morningnewsman (Member # 5987) on :
Nori, do you think I should assume that this flareup of my neurological symptoms (numbness, tingling, etc) could actually be a herx? I had felt things relapsing a bit after seven months off the ABX, which is why they put me back on something. Thanks for all the input!
Posted by farah (Member # 8496) on :
Coptis is a Chinese herb that has antibacterial and anti-inflammatory properties. Dr. Zhang uses it a lot in treatment of Lyme. I think a combination of antibacterial herbs usually works better than just one, because this bacteria is so adaptable and changeable.
Farah
Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :
I was very interested in Coptis after reading about it on Dr. Z's site.
I was surprised that Stephen Buhner did not discuss this herb in his book. He also missed Allicin and Rhodiola rosea.
Carol
Posted by hardynaka (Member # 8099) on :
I had once posted about berberine for babesiosis here, few people had taken it.
Berberine seems to be the main component of Coptis chinensis (there are many species of coptis).
Goldenseal and barberry also have berberine.
In another forum, some people were taking berberine with good results.
Selma
Posted by morningnewsman (Member # 5987) on :
Thanks for all the info. I've been on the herbal antibiotics for about two weeks, and its just tough to tell if its working. I'm also taking herbal supplements to flush out my liver, which was a little elevated. (thus the reason I could not go on the "real" abx) I certainly prefer the natural route if possible. Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
quote:Originally posted by morningnewsman: Thanks for all the info. I've been on the herbal antibiotics for about two weeks, and its just tough to tell if its working. I'm also taking herbal supplements to flush out my liver, which was a little elevated. (thus the reason I could not go on the "real" abx) I certainly prefer the natural route if possible.
The Natural HERBS are the REAL abx. Manmade ones are just that and artificial. Just a little side thought.
I am going to look into the Coptis.
Buhner used only herbs in his Healin Lyme book that have proven themselves for many, many years, especially in Lyme Disease. He explains that quite well in his book. He has dealt with many prectitioners in this too to come to his conclusions.
Jim Posted by Nori (Member # 8983) on :
"Nori, do you think I should assume that this flareup of my neurological symptoms (numbness, tingling, etc) could actually be a herx?
For my friend it was a herx. Since we all respond different, I cant say the same for you.
In chinese medicine, people have different constitutions and some can tolerate certain warm or cold herbs while others cant.
I am not taking the coptis formula as it is a cold property herb and I cant tolerate cold herbs for a long period of time like some people can. My muscles get weak in my legs - something related to digestive system issues.
Posted by morningnewsman (Member # 5987) on :
It's tough to tell if this is a herx or just symptoms not being touched by the herbal protocol, but I'm glad to hear these are potent abx, and natural too. Taking the probiotics is still important, even with the herbal abx. Thanks for all the great info, it helps a lot.
Posted by liz28 (Member # 4946) on :
I take Herb Pharm's coptis extract as a supplement to nystatin, to control yeast.
Also, I've taken artemisinin as a supplement to various babesia protocols. Although the one I'm on now is working beautifully, it took a long time to find, and the artemisinin was invaluable in keeping the babesia somewhat controlled in the meantime.
What I've read about artemisinin, which you'll want to research on your own, is that it rapidly lowers the level of malaria in your bloodstream for a short time. So if you catch the lethal form of malaria, which can kill you within hours if you are not near a medical center or have a drug resistant form of the disease, you can take artemisinin and it will wipe out the malaria long enough for you to get a second drug into your system.
The symptoms you've described are too vague to identify as a specific disease. I'm one of the Lymenet people with relapsing babesia, and it is finally responding to a treatment protocol used on tough cases of relapsing malaria, plasmodium vivax. Since this disease is not an area of expertise within the Lyme community, which is naturally focused on Lyme, you may wish to read more about it on your own.
Posted by jwf (Member # 6292) on :
Hi Morningnewsman,
I've been taking artemisinin, artemesia annua, cat's claw, grage seed extract, sarsaparilla (smilax), andographis, coptis, isatis leaf, forsythia, gardenia, scute, and phellodendron, among other herbs for 2yrs. 2months now.
This has been posted several times on this board but is quickly forgotten.
In 2 years time my health has changed dramatically from chronic neuroborelliosis to fairly normal and from positive to negative with IgeneX. Still positive with Bowen but moving down their scale.
I have also recovered from the night- mare called Morgellons with the same herbs. The herbs that I chose have worked beyond my expectations for both my wife and me. These were started before the Healing Lyme book came out, but I understand the author picked many of the same herbs.
Expect results in years not months. We were untreated for 1 1/2 years. When we contracted Morgellons (hard G and it is very real) I realized like many others that we also had Lyme disease.
Coptis is one of the herbs in the two anti-spirochete formulas from Seven Forest that we've used over the last two years. The Seven Forest herbal formulas No. 6 and 18 came from a local Acupuncturist.
If you don't have any luck finding the Seven Forest formulas on-line, check with a local ND or Acupuncturist.
Just started using the 2 Seven Forest formulas again about 10 days ago and although I don't have any Lyme symptoms at all, I'm having a small herx from it. Interesting. Of course these formulas also combat other bacterial infections.
Blue Skies............John
Posted by liz28 (Member # 4946) on :
Yo, coptis costs $7.95 at local health food stores.
Posted by farah (Member # 8496) on :
If you all decide to take coptis, take it as a pill or capsule, otherwise it is horridly bitter, like andrographis, another potent chinese antibiotic herb.
Farah
Posted by morningnewsman (Member # 5987) on :
I find them all to be pretty expensive...the coptis, Hepa #2, Circulation P, HH. These are the ones I'm taking, along with Milk Thistle, MedCaps, etc. Why do they say to take the Coptis and Artemesin a half hour before eating??
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
quote:Originally posted by liz28: Yo, coptis costs $7.95 at local health food stores.
$7.95 for HOW MUCH?
I JUST ordered a POUND from 1stChineseHerbs late last night and it cost $73.00 exactly with free shipping. THAT will make many bottles of 100 capsules though. But it is still more than twice as expensive as Andrographis.
But I thought I would try it for a few months. Maybe replace my daily regimen of Andrographis with it just to have something different attacking any bugs that might still be in my system.
When it is gone, I will then continue taking the Andrographis. Mainly because Buhner recommends it and it is a lot cheaper.
Jim Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
quote:Originally posted by morningnewsman: I find them all to be pretty expensive...the coptis, Hepa #2, Circulation P, HH. These are the ones I'm taking, along with Milk Thistle, MedCaps, etc. Why do they say to take the Coptis and Artemesin a half hour before eating??
I don't take your other herbs, but find Resveratrol to also be expensive. Most other herbs are very reasonable for what they do for you.
I didn't know anyone said to take Coptis half hour before eating. I take ALL my herbs WITH my meals. WHO said to take it half hour before?
Jim Posted by morningnewsman (Member # 5987) on :
My LLMD recommends taking those select herbs a half hour before meals. I guess I can ask him.
Posted by Nori (Member # 8983) on :
My acupuncturist/herbalist says to take some of my herbs 30 minutes before eating - this is for better absorbtion prior to food coming in.
But some herbs are recommended with food.
I note some of the zhang herbs he recommneds to take before the meal and some with the meal.
[ 12. June 2006, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Nori ]
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
I got into the habit of taking all my herbs WITH meals as I was having such terrible stomach pain and nausea before.
I have cured that problem now, with C-Salts, but don't know IF I want to chance it either.
I am wondering HOW MUCH better they absorb before the meals, and WHICH ones of all I take?
I don't remember Buhner saying that in his book.
Jim Posted by morningnewsman (Member # 5987) on :
I do notice that I get MUCH more stomach bloating and gas with the herbal protocol than I did on the hard abx for over a year. I guess that shows just how potent this stuff is, which is good!
Posted by farah (Member # 8496) on :
Taking some digestive enzymes with the herbs may help with the gas and bloating from them.
Farah
Posted by Jennifer Geddie (Member # 9097) on :
This post will help those looking for info on finding the right botanicals with a relaible source .
It is great to hear that some folks feel the herbs are helping them improve . Good tools for the arsenal needed .
Posted by Annxyz (Member # 9097) on :
Bump Again for people asking about herbal success ( JWF and JimBob and Selma) and for particulars about herbs
Posted by Annxyz (Member # 9097) on :
Bump Again for people asking about herbal success ( JWF and JimBob and Selma) and for particulars about herbs .
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
okay, THIS was the thread that I FIRST heard of Coptis.
I did try it WITH only ONE pill of Andrographis and a couple pills of Artemisia annua, and I thought I was going to die. The worst feeling I have ever had on herbs. I had to stop ALL of my herbs for a few days. It took me about three weeks to recover.
It took me many weeks before I tried Coptis again. I did take it, but at very low doses compared to Andrographis and others. Coptis is a super strong herb. Take with extreme care.
I am not taking it now, I am back on Andrographis. Do NOT take it with Andrographis. I would think twice about taking it with Artemisia annua also.
I still have some of the original pound left and may use it up in the future.
Jim Posted by hardynaka (Member # 8099) on :
Coptis was way too strong for me. I couldn't stand even 1/3 of a CAPSULE A DAY. It gave me strong kidney pains. Unbearable.
I tried it for a few times after a rest. No, that's not a herb for me.
Buhner thinks coptis is not indicated for borrelia but for parasites. He had talked about that somewhere (planet thrive???).
Selma
Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
I am currently on a TCM tincture formula prescribed by my Acupuncturist for my bad gallbladder, which includes Coptis in it. I've been taking it 3 X daily for 3 weeks now.
I am to take it 1/2 hr. before meals with as little water as possible. It is bitter, but not unbearable. I have had zero herxing or stomach upset from it.
I cannot take Artemesia, as all quinine derivitives and their relatives make me stop breathing.
Another one used for Lyme in TCM is Coriolis Versicolor.
Klutzo
Posted by Annxyz (Member # 9097) on :
Note To self : Do not mix andrographis , coptis , and artimisinin ( without extreme caution )
They are all three very potent individually .
Thank you Jim Bob for sharing your meltdown experience .
Posted by Ruth Ruth (Member # 11059) on :
Klutzo, is the tincture from your accupuncturist helping with the gall bladder? It doesn't sound like you have been having a great time recently. I hope things turn around for you soon.
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
You are welcome, Ann.
I sure don't want anyone else to go through what I went through last summer. It was really scarey.
JWF said his "seven" formula had both coptis and andrographis in it, but he didn't say HOW many mg's of each he took. Probably a very small amount each day? Don't know, he would have to tell us.
I will never go back to the two at the same time though.
Jim Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
RuthRuth, No the herbs are not working and I am seeing the surgeon this morning. I am scared to death. I got only 3 hrs. sleep last night from nerves.
I am afraid of the surgery because of my problems with ABX, narcotics, and apnea, and afraid to be in a hospital because of the med mistakes, late med doses (which would put me into withdrawl) and superbugs.
I've not been in a hospital since 1986. People are telling me hospitals here are now like those in the third world, and you don't dare be left alone, or you could die of neglect. We have no family, and all our friends work full time and overtime, so I will have to be alone.
However I am far more afraid of not having surgery at this point. I have no idea how to convince this surgeon to operate on me with all normal tests, but I must convince him somehow. The entire upper right quadrant of my abdomen is now so tender it cannot be touched, even lightly. I've lost 18 lbs. in 28 days.
It is the needles that have helped keep me going, easing the pain and nausea enough so I can keep down 500 cals. daily plus supplements,and get a little sleep.
Klutzo
Posted by liz28 (Member # 4946) on :
I love coptis for candida, and pair it with nystatin and kefir.
Artemisinin was part of my babesia protocol, along with chloroquine and primaquine. Worked beautifully!
Posted by mag (Member # 8920) on :
hi morningnews
i take coptis for the berbereine effect
doesn't cause any herxing for me
mags
Posted by Ruth Ruth (Member # 11059) on :
Klutzo, I sent you a PM. Sorry about your pain.
Mag, what is a 'berbereine effect'?
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
up
Posted by jwf (Member # 6292) on :
The two Seven Forest formulas that I took were Forsythia 18 and Isatis 6.
If you take the two Seven Forest formulas then you get *8 known anti-spirochete herbs . In addition, Smilax or Sarsaparilla has been discussed quite a bit, and Chinng-hao you may recognize as Artemisia.
As a rule of thumb, we never took Artemesia or Artemisinin at the same time as the Seven Forest Formulas.
The Artemesia seemed to combat Lyme better than the Artemisinin, but that is a subjective conclusion.
There are several online sources for the Seven Forest Herbal Formulas. It is recommended that you buy them from an ND, acupuncturist, or knowledgeable practitioner.
Blue Skies.......John
[ 22. March 2007, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: jwf ]
Posted by yanivnaced (Member # 13212) on :
bumping up this old thread.
seems like Lymenet was a more interesting place several months ago.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
Coptis is one of the best supplements I've ever taken. It has berberine in it, as do many plants, and really helps me feel better. It's like eating food that really goes to my cells. Mostly from herbal supplements, I feel like I'm getting nutrition that is put to work.
I can't explain it very well, but sometimes, bitter (cold) herbs used to clear toxic heat (as the term is) are mixed with other herbs neutral or warm in nature to soften or help it work better, sometimes to improve taste if that is important.
Usually herbs that are cold in nature are not mixed with other cold herbs but with a warm herb. Mixing one or two, or three cold/bitter herbs is likely to be very hard on the stomach/GI system.
A warm herb, too, would not be mixed with another warm herb, but with a cool one. This balance can make a difference in how it affects the digestion or take the heat out of a fever. It lessens side-effects and helps the combination to be more effective.
It's best to work with a professional trained in this area, although I know location and finances do not always allow that.
there's a lot said in the history of Chinese Medicine about terms such as wind, stagnation, dampness, heat, cold, etc. Knowing what that means and how to determine is not easy.
Professionals trained in pulse diagnosis can tell often just from reading the various pulses in each wrist. Two people with a cold may be treated very differently, depending upon how that affects their body.
One of the naturopathic physician with whom I worked rotated my formula every three weeks and instructed me to take one day a week supplement free. With so many various herbs available, rotating frequently helps the body not get to too used to - or allergic -to a formula. Sometimes, just changing one or two of the ingredients can address shifts in symptoms, too.
And, as stated in the literature on some herbals, many can be taken concurrently with antibiotics - but perhaps at different times of the day - according the treating doctors. Sometimes the herbal supplement helps the antibiotic work even better or ward of side-effects.
And, as many have mentioned, getting clean a supplement is vital. Knowing the process from where it's grown, what's been put on it, how is it stored, shipped and handled really matters. Organic is best, but not always possible.
Standardized means a lot. Regarding strength, there is a big difference in the whole (or raw) herb, extracts, tinctures and granules. The parts of a plant used also can make a difference as can the time of harvest.
Different species, also, have differences. Herbs usually have two names. I can't say it right, but some names can be similar in name, but very different in action. Be sure exactly which one you are studying.
Good health habits are a way of life for most employing supplements. The use of alcohol or smoking is discouraged -
Although, some of the formulas can be helpful for those in transition regarding such - and practitioners are usually well-versed in this area.
THE WEB THAT HAS NO WEAVER is another good book, though not specific for TBI.
-
"HEALING LYME" by Buhner is a very good book for our specific education, as is "Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine" by Zhang. Amazon has them both.
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as mentioned above for specific articles, www.itmonline.org has many articles on the history and use of herbs. They also have a list of professionals from around the world to whom they can refer patients.
I'd ask the same questions of a naturopathic physcian or acupuncturist though, regarding how LL they are and if they are familiar with ILADS.
I've worked with some fine complementary professionals, but if they don't know about lyme and TBI, they just don't cut it. This is like no other sort of infection that most have worked with and it affects so many systems and organs that the reading of ILADS' works is vital to understanding. If they choose to adapt their treatments they must understand the spirochete forms and behavior and coinfections, too.
-
PubMed often has abstracts on supplements, too. Although, generally, they focus on a single ingredient, not the blended formulas as usually used in practice.
[ 02. January 2008, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
bump
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
Bump coptis again
hepapro says this is one of their mmost popular herbs among their Lyme customers
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- When considering herbal / nutritional / adjunct methods:
if at all possible - because each person & each case is different - it's best to consult with an ILADS-educated LL ND (lyme literate naturopathic doctor) (or similar) who has completed four years of post-graduate medical education in the field of herbal and nutritional medicine -
- and someone who is current with ILADS' research & presentations, past and present, and has completed the ILADS Physician Training Program (see: www.ilads.org )
Many LL NDs incorporate antibiotics (depending upon the licensing laws in their state). Some LLMDs and LL NDs have good working relationships.
When possible, it's great to have both a LLMD and LL ND and even better when they have a long-standing professional relationship.
Various articles and books here, too. -
Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :
I found out that I was positive for Lyme in December 2003. After reading everything on Dr. Zhang's website about how he treats using Traditional Chinese Medicine, I bought his herbs from Hepapro and followed his protocol for Lyme during June, July, and August 2004.
I felt much better that summer, but stopped after three months.
I found out a year ago that Coptis contains Berberine, and I began taking Berberine, two 500 mg capsules per day. I noticed improvements in my symptoms, including less pain and headache.
After a month or so, I noticed that my gastrointestinal reflux was improving, and I no longer had to worry about inhaling stomach contents when I was sleeping.
I stopped the Berberine for five or six weeks, and began having more stomach problems again. When I woke up after bringing up stomach contents in my sleep, I realized that I had better restart the Berberine.
I restarted with one capsule of Berberine 500 mg daily, and have continued with that since January. I have not had any incidents of aspiration since then.
I'm kicking myself that I did not continue with the Coptis after I used it in 2004.
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