Last year I was diagnosed with Lyme after 9 years of being "blown off" by the traditional medicine community. Two pregnancies and two adoptions later. Anyway, went on 4 months IV Rocephin and then orals for 4 months. Did some Hyperbaric Oxygen and felt life come into me again. I was progressively getting better but went to a LLMD for further study of my strange neuro symtoms. He used kineseology to diagnose me with Brucella. How strange, I have never even touched a cow or eaten undercooked meat or unpastuerized milk. We all firmly belive that this came from the tick bite, along with the Lyme. I wanted you all to know to get tested for this although it is "rare" because I was not getting fully better, only maybe 58-60% improvement. Now I am on 6 weeks on Rifampin, and also Cat's claw and Scolopendrium, and pleo sansbrucella, along with bactrum. I am allergic to Doxy, or so it seems... so my choices were limited to treat this. I did not want to lose my hearing possibly so I skipped the Streptomycin & Gentomycin type drugs as well...and opted for possible liver damage with the Rifampin instead. Liver can regenerate. God will get me through this as He has everything else. I am having strange die off reactions different than with the Lyme - more neuro, makes me feel generally strange and dizzy and siezure-like.... I also have recurrent bronchitus every 4-6 weeks, now we believe this to be the undulating effects of the Brucella, it comes in waves. So, just please get tested for this, there are four strains and it has caused me frequent bouts of lungs problems that would come and go unexplainably. Thank God I have an answer now. All other Co-infections have tested negative by blood and kineseology. I am so thankful for my LLMD and I just love him. I will not post his name, but if I had another boy, I would name him after this M.D. Seriously. He is located in the general vicinity of Atlanta area. Also, just got home from a stressful trip to the un-lyme-literate Pediatrician trying to explain why I wanted my two bio kids tested by PCR for Lyme ( after negative WB and Elisa) and for Brucella. She nearly laughed me out of the room. But I insisted and didn't mind looking like a idiot. These Doc's have not helped me and I tested negative for Lyme for 8-9 years by Elisa and WB. Still test negative as of last month by WB. I don't have enough of the CDC recognized bands. Clearly, folks, take my advice and get a LLMD and forget the nay-sayers.
I'm glad you found out you have Brucella, and you are being treated for it. So sorry though you had to deal with the *duck*!
I agree with you, I wouldn't have gotten anywhere in my treatment or that of my son without the help of true LLMDS. They sure are a blessing to us all.
Posted by KP (Member # 9488) on :
I am off to another ID doc because although my symptoms are very similar and likely Lyme, neither I nor my LLMD are convinced it is Lyme. I am going to ask to be tested for Brucella. I have a friend who had that many years ago and had similar issues to me. She is now completely better.
I hope you start feeling better. I so appreciate you sharing this - it just might save someone else...maybe even me!!
Karen
Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
Hmmmmmmm, that sounds highly dubious to me.
Brucella Abortus bang was one of the diagnoses I also got, about five years ago, while I was desperately searching for the cure of my "CFS" and "Fibromyalgia"....the Brucella Abortus Bang was diagnosed by a homeopath at a College of Homeopathy with their "BFD" machine, an electro-acupuncture type machine, bigger than VEGA but similar. I did two years of their 'cure' for it and other diagnosis (infections they 'found) and how weird - I was sicker the day they said I was cured than the day I first set foot in that place.
I was told there was no point in trying to get tested conventially for Brucella because it was impossible to culture, etc etc...
Beware!
Oh, and they also diagnosed me with Toxoplasmosis, Ascaria worms, measles, chickenpox in the lungs and god knows what else, the list is too long to remember. I don't even want to remember. I can't believe I briefly got suckered (out of a lot of dough).
DLL
Posted by nan (Member # 63) on :
I had Brucella years ago. FYI, ticks can carry brucella and some llmds will test for it automatically.
Like lyme, it is a disease that can appear cured but can cause relapse, too.
My brucella was found when I had blood drawn to see if I had Mono. The hospital informed me that I had brucellosis!
Posted by notime2work (Member # 6092) on :
This article (or group of articles) is long, but has information about how brucella is related to lyme and other chronic conditions. The last part of the article is about CS, so that part may or may not be of interest.
It is widely recognized by those that are familiar with brucella that late stage disease is very difficult to detect via lab tests, they often call this "chronic" brucella. Then of course there are those that say there is no such thing as "chronic" brucella (sound familiar)... the IDSA types.
What is good is that bartonella treatment is eqaully effective for brucella, in fact bartonella and brucella are very closely related bacteria. Hopefully the new treatment will work well.
What did the homeopath place treat you with? Obviously from what you have said, it was ineffective. I am wondering if it was a particular drug regime or some other natural remidy.
PS. I know a veterinarian that has chronic brucella (a lot of vets caught it... by handling the animal vacine, which is made from a LIVE bacteria). He for the most part is ok but any sustained stress will cause the disease to once again emerge.
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
David,
Could you provide more information on the connection between bartonella and brucellosis? My understanding was that brucellosis is a spirochete in the same family as borrelia.
Is bartonella a spirochete-type of bacteria, also?
I may have what is called bartonella quintana, due to five day attacks. Would love to know more about this connection.
Thanks,
Claire
Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
David,
They treated me with isopathic nosodes (drops in water). Supposedly the nosodes are made from the exact same substance and I would start out with a lower number/strength and work up to 1million sometimes.
But, honestly, I have to say that I feel that really I just got ripped off. I also feel that because I made several friends who also went to that clinic, and none of them got well. (they all had either CFS/MS/Fibro diagnosis, as I also did at the time.
The measles, ascaria, chickenpox, toxoplasmosis, etc etc etc was all treated with the isopathic nosodes also. I will never know if I even ever had any of those infections (they were all supposedly chronic).
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
don'tlikeliver,
Even the early homeopaths who did the majority of research on nosodes found that you can't get well JUST using nosodes. They are helpful, but certainly not the whole ball of wax.
I assume they "diagnosed" you with having Lyme, as well? (You didn't mention Lyme in your list of infections they found.)
So, do you think the VEGA-type testing is bogus, too?
Tracy
Posted by Ann-OH (Member # 2020) on :
I split this up to make it an easier read for those of us who can't read solid blocks of print. I grew up on a farm and the cows once got brucelloses. There was some worry that we kids got it by drinking the milk, but I guess we didin't. Ann- OH
[quote] Last year I was diagnosed with Lyme after 9 years of being "blown off" by the traditional medicine community. Two pregnancies and two adoptions later.
Anyway, went on 4 months IV Rocephin and then orals for 4 months. Did some Hyperbaric Oxygen and felt life come into me again.
I was progressively getting better but went to a LLMD for further study of my strange neuro symtoms. He used kineseology to diagnose me with Brucella. How strange, I have never even touched a cow or eaten undercooked meat or unpastuerized milk.
We all firmly belive that this came from the tick bite, along with the Lyme. I wanted you all to know to get tested for this although it is "rare" because I was not getting fully better, only maybe 58-60% improvement.
Now I am on 6 weeks on Rifampin, and also Cat's claw and Scolopendrium, and pleo sansbrucella, along with bactrum.
I am allergic to Doxy, or so it seems... so my choices were limited to treat this. I did not want to lose my hearing possibly so I skipped the Streptomycin & Gentomycin type drugs as well...and opted for possible liver damage with the Rifampin instead.
Liver can regenerate. God will get me through this as He has everything else. I am having strange die off reactions different than with the Lyme - more neuro, makes me feel generally strange and dizzy and siezure-like....
I also have recurrent bronchitus every 4-6 weeks, now we believe this to be the undulating effects of the Brucella, it comes in waves.
So, just please get tested for this, there are four strains and it has caused me frequent bouts of lungs problems that would come and go unexplainably. Thank God I have an answer now.
All other Co-infections have tested negative by blood and kineseology. I am so thankful for my LLMD and I just love him. I will not post his name, but if I had another boy, I would name him after this M.D. Seriously. He is located in the general vicinity of Atlanta area.
Also, just got home from a stressful trip to the un-lyme-literate Pediatrician trying to explain why I wanted my two bio kids tested by PCR for Lyme ( after negative WB and Elisa) and for Brucella. She nearly laughed me out of the room. But I insisted and didn't mind looking like a idiot.
These Doc's have not helped me and I tested negative for Lyme for 8-9 years by Elisa and WB. Still test negative as of last month by WB. I don't have enough of the CDC recognized bands. Clearly, folks, take my advice and get a LLMD and forget the nay-sayers.
Blessings to you all ~ Paula
[email protected] Jer. 29:11 [end quote]
Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :
Hi,
Bart Quintana is definately not a spirocete, it is however a member of the brucella family. I forget the exact details but bart was once called brucella ..something.... They are both intracellular bacteria like the spirocete, and they both have the ability to hide someplace when antibiotics are given (like the spirocete). There as a large number of brucella and bartonella variants and there may be some antibody cross reaction so I suspect that the tests are neither very spicific nor are they reliable.
Hope that helps anwer your question
Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :
Hi, DLL
I have never heard of nosodes. From all the info that I have seen, bart and brucella need to be treated with a combination of antibiotics to be effective. It is a very old disesae and has been recognized for 100+ years, pre-dating antibiotics. Even in those early days there where no reports of effective natural treatments so I really question if there is a hoemopathic cure available. In a lot of cases it clears up its self so this is maybe why the stuff seem to work sometimes.
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
Thanks for the information, Dave.
Wonder if brucellosis has that relapsing characteristic? When I did my research I don't remember seeing anything about that. Everything starts to run together with me sometimes. Bart does have the feeling of being very old because of it's resistance to medicines/remedies. It seems like it is not a regular old bacteria.
Posted by tailz (Member # 10014) on :
I was tested for mycoplasms - does that mean I was tested for brucella? It was negative. I don't feel like Rocephin is doing it alone. My hair falls out in gobs still.
I know in the past that the meds that helped were ceftin, amoxicillin, metronidazole, diflucan, minocycline - but all I tested positive for so far is Lyme.
Boy, I really narrowed it down for you, huh?
Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :
Hi again, Yes brucellosis is relapsing as is bartonella. Bart Y was called undulant fever long time ago because of the waves of symptoms.
These two culprits can give virtually the same symptoms as Lyme with the exception that they often produce waves of symtoms closer together than with typical lyme. If they get mixed with Lyme then they sort of fight with each other causing all sorts of odd things and if you knock one down, the other can raise to take its place but produce similar symtoms... It is a real dogs breakfast to deal with.
As for testing.... The news is not so good, the testing is worse than for Lyme except in cases where the strain is known.
Good news is that pretty well any antibiotic will knock down the bacteria (bart or bruce) but likely will not totally irradicate it. Like Lyme, it may persist in the body for ever. It is particuraly nasty as it can be passed from man to woman and from woman to child. There are european cases of multi generation infection through this route.
Bart can also be transmitted by Lice Bruce can be transmitted by contaminated milk products or some blood sucking insects.
I often wonder about the microscopic insects that inhabit airplane seats. I know 1 person who got head lice from a damn airplane seat, I wonder about body lice also. If they are there then where did they come from and where did the person that was carrying them live/travel.
The sanitation measures used on aircraft are pretty poor, especially these days. I guess the same would be true for buses but the likelyhood of the bus having gone to a country that had an infestation problem is a lot lower.
Pardon the monolog I Hope the rest helps.
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
Hmmmm... this is very useful information, Dave. Don't worry about monologuing (is that a word? probably not).
I have five day attacks, which I identify as bart and then monthly attacks, which I believe are lyme flare-ups.
I have wondered about mites as I have read that bart is associated with mites. Lice as a carrier makes a lot of sense, too.
Wonder why, if any anti-biotic can reduce bart and bruce, why it would not be possible to fully eradicate it?
Forever the optimist... I just can't not believe in cures. But I do give in to lyme. I think that is something that we will always need to stay on top of.
Paula, sorry for highjacking your post. Hopefully some of this is helpful for you, too. Do you feel that you are relapsing every few days or so?
Claire
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Just a small perhaps nonessential correction...
Brucelliosis was called undulant fever years ago...I see no mention of Bartonellosis Y....
However brucellosis...B. abortis; B. melitensis and B. suis...in man it is called undulant fever q.v. or Malta fever, q.v. and is caused by any of the three species....
However Bartonellosis is a disease caused by infection with Bartonella(named after A.L. Barton...a S. American physician)
bacillifomis...transmitted by female sandflies...first clinical stage is non eruptive and is called Oroya fever...a severe febrile, hemolytic anemia. The second stage is eruptive and is called verruga peruana...It is marked by the appearance of small tumors on the skin and mucuos membranes...Syn with Carrion's disease....
responds to several antibiotics but chlorapheniol has the added advantage of being effective agains Salmonella which may be present as a secondary infection.....
By the way...buses don't need to travel outside an endemic country...as is ours.
zman...now I'm REALLY driving anywhere I go...I already know what bugs I have...LOL
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
I think I have seen some of this information in my Tabor's Medical Dictionary. That is one reason I was asking Dave the questions.
Dave... do you have some sources for us? Or will you have to kill us afterward? Just teasing on the last part, of course.
Claire
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
Dave?
I know that sometimes there are new developments. I am putting together a theory about LD, which might already be obvious to everyone else... just new to me.
So I am reading and listening to everything about the microbes involved very carefully. If you have some sources, that would be helpful.
Thanks.
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Clair...
If you tell us your theory...we might save you some time and effort...
OR
Do a search with the wording or word pertinent to your theory...
There is a whole lot that has already been dicussed and rehashed here over the years...
zman
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
It goes something like this... a disease within a disease (and within another disease, perhaps). Kind of like opening a large box and inside that, another box, and another, etc.
Yeah... we all already know that LD involves several microbes, not just the borrelia bacteria. Lately, I have become more interested in mites as possible carriers of Bb, bartonella and babesia, etc. And most importantly, I am interested in sequencing of the remedies or abx.
There was a topic posted 11/28/05 by Ms. Myoclonus called "Rash in a straight line of dots." "Gambler" talks about this mite issue and raises a lot of interesting questions or thoughts. He says that mites are really just small ticks and can be carriers of Bb and describes his own experience. Apparently, we all have these mites, including healthy people.
My theory is that we first have to get rid of free-floating bacterial and viral issues... get Bb and others down. Second, we need to go after the larger bugs like mites, but also be ready for the die-off stuff. What is that die-off stuff? More Bb? Bartonella? Babs? Are these being released from the mites? And there are other toxic substances from these dead or dying bugs... Things really mount up in this scenario.
It seems to me that there can be a more state of the art sequencing of the ammunition so that we can weather the die-offs better, if this, is in fact,what is happening.
Anyway, that is where my curiosity/interest lies. Read the posts mentioned. Very interesting.
I have done a lot of searches here, and continue to do them as questions arise. This forum has helped me a lot. These are just musings, too, not definitive medical science.
Claire
Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :
I have a few good printed references but it is hard to transscribe what is int hem. some are the fundemental of internal medicine, Con's current infectious disease treatment guildelines and a number of papers.
A 5 day cycle is definately mentioned for some strains of bart (urban or trench fever) are are definately mentioned as louse bourne.
Tonyz- you are correct on the undulant fever, my error. It is the mne sometimes used to describe brucella, not bartonella. On the bartonella and bartenellaosis - they are the same- the osis I presume the "osis" means diseased or abnormal condition. It is like the latin word "oma" such as carcenoma meaning "growth"
I am just going by memory on all this stuff as I don't search the internet prior to writting (plus my typing is not so good due to some fine motor problems in the hands) so please excuse any non critial slip ups.....
On your theory, I agree for the most part but here is some of my take on it, you might want to consider it in refining yours.
For an infection to remain viable in the presence of other more agressive infections, the organism must be able to go dormant and survive until the time is right and/or it must be able to consume certain resources that are needed by faster growing bacteria so as to inhibit the fast growing bacteria growth rate.
If either of these does nto occur, a slow growing bacteria infection will be elminated by a faster growing one, simply due to competition for resources. The slower one will have less nutrients to grow with and thus cannot multiply and will eventially die out. There is a lot of "hype" in the epidemiology world on this "theory" and the prediction of what diseases will become viable in an epidemic. One model is that if you infect the population on purpose with one disease, you will prevent another more serious one from occuring or spreading. Interesting concept, which may have some applicability in understanding Lyme. It has a good base for a movie....
A cure all engineered germ (Lyme) that was supposed to sit dormant in the body until another disease (cancer) is detected, at which time the plasmids in the intra cellular bactereia kick in... only problem is that they never fully finished the development with the result that the strain is not "pure" it has some animal related fragments in it. Due to a guy leaving in a hurry to get home one day, the lab had an escape of the culture media they where using (ticks) and now you have people infected with the not yet complete engneered bacteria that turns people into nocturnal zombies. Of course the people involved have to cover things up (YALE-PlumbIs.) while they frantically search for a preventative to stop further spread, but in the course of this create mutants (Lymerix). Then of course all hell breaks loose when the president and all his staff get infected on a hunting trip and then start a nuclear war when they go crazy prior to becoming zombies.....
Now lets assume that Lyme can do both of the preventative measures listed above to stay viable (lyme is a very slow growing disease as are many of the spirocete disases). Dr's say to treat co-infections first otherwise people will relapse after lyme treatment... This even if the the co-infections are not obvious when you start.
Assuming that this is based on experience, a model that would fit is that the Lyme is able to keep the other disease in check using some unknown method. Basically it is like a balancing act where if you upset the "weight" or number of bacteria on one side, the other side will increase. This effect is well known for multiple bacterial infections, If you don't treat them all with antibiotics they are sensitive to then the ones you kill will be replaced by ones you didn't kill, with the result the treatment may resutl in new symtoms or increased symptoms in some areas, and less in others but the overall problem is not solved.
Anyway, my hands are tired... I might continue later if I can.
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
Dave,
Thanks for your post. Had not heard about one bacteria keeping another in check, etc., but it makes sense. Will continue to mull everything over. Ultimately, I am just trying to find the best approach.
Nocturnal zombies... I like that. Sorry about tiring your hands.
![[group hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)