This is topic Andrographis (BUHNER) plus abx? in forum Medical Questions at LymeNet Flash.


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Posted by luvdogs (Member # 9507) on :
 
Hi all,

Has anybody tried combining Buhner's protocol, or specifically adrographis, with antibiotics.

Is there any reference to that in his book? Specifically, how about combining it with doxy?

Any thoughts or experience or info?

Thanks.
 
Posted by Penn92 (Member # 9207) on :
 
I was taking most of the core protocol (including andrographis) at low doses back in August when I started on abx (200mg zith twice daily). After two weeks of diarrhea and nightmarish weight loss, the LLMD told me to drop the herbs until I was done with the abx. For me, it was too much at one time - the body couldn't handle it.
 
Posted by psano (Member # 7785) on :
 
Buhner's book says that taking the core protocol in addition to abx "will increase the positive outcomes from antibiotics considerably." (first pg of Chapter 3)

GI upset is the most common side effect of taking these herbs. He says to reduce the dose if this occurs. He also says that the GI upset should start going away as your body gets used to it.

I just started taking the core protocol this week in addition to my abx regimen and I started having loose stools the next day. So far, it's not so bad that I'm stopping or going to reduce my dose. I'm only taking 1 cap 3 times a day of each: Andrographis, Reservatrol (Japanese Knotweed) and Cat's Claw (by Raintree).

I'm going to try to stay with this for 1 week and see how it goes.
 
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
 
Yes, Psano, and if it keeps going good, keep on, keeping on. AND up your dosages.

I have been on Buhner's core protocol, plus many, many more of his herbs for over 13 months now. Am I perfect yet, NO! Am I better, YES!

Much better than I was a year ago. I started his protocol on November 25, 2005. Then I introduced Tetracycline. For 28 days. It was killing my stomach, which wasn't good for many months anyway even before starting herbs. The herbs didn't help or hurt the gut.

After a week off of the Tetracycline, I went on Doxycyline. I was going to go on it for 28 days also, but my gut got so bad, I had to stop after 24 days. I also felt bad in other ways, for about three weeks after stopping the abx.

Before the abx, I had improved quite a bit on just the herbs. And I have continued to do so after quitting the abx last February.

I have been on abx only once after that for an infection. For 10 days.

As far as my gut issue. The ONLY THING to help it was C-Salts from nutri.com as recommend by Stephen Buhner.

I am at about 3/4 of the maximum of what I was taking months ago. I do plan to cut it to about half soon and see what happens. IF it goes okay, then I will cut it some more, etc..

I was in really bad shape a year ago. I truly believed I was going to die soon. I didn't think I would reach the age of 65. Well, I made it to 65 six months ago, and still going. Praise the herbs.

I had arthritis and asthma long before I got Lyme Disease, so will continue on some of the herbs for those symptoms probably as long as I live.

I had never taken any herbs before starting Buhner's Protocol for Lyme.

Hope this helps.

Jim [Cool]
 
Posted by luvdogs (Member # 9507) on :
 
Thanks Penn, Psano and JimBob! Wow, Jim, I am glad the herbs were able to help you when the abx could not. It sounds like you're doing well, relatively!

Thanks for all of the answers. It is definitely some food for thought [Wink] .... It is nice to know that there are tried an tested herbs when we have to have them.

So many herbs give me bad herxes etc, but then you wouldn't know which ones would be helpful in the long run, or would be ok to combine with abx,.
 
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
 
People on the Lyme_Aid_Buhner Yahoogroup were comparing notes about 'bad reactions' to some of the herbs recently- and in some cases, folks (including Jim I think) had to start with much smaller doses than Buhner recommends, and work their way up.

My boyfriend is taking resveratrol for it's antioxidant effects and finding that it caused slight nausea for a couple of days. I recently re-started core protocol herbs after a few months off (during which time I was taking antibiotics) and in my case the symptoms of 'overdoing it' with too much core protocol too soon, was diarrhea for a couple of days, then everything settled in just find and I don't feel a thing different (other than feeling very healthy). It's all different depending on who you talk to, and trying smaller doses might help if needed.

Oh, and yes, it's been shown in many of us to work very well with antibiotics. I was on doxy and then azithromycin for a month or so before starting on herbs and I felt huge improvement when I took the herbs.
 
Posted by Jennifer Geddie (Member # 9097) on :
 
Maria,
Which herbs are you taking now ?

Do you have any idea how long it takes on the core protocol to start seeing a little improvement ?
Thank you for sharing this information - very helpful!
jen
 
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
 
Core protocol (andrographis, resveratrol/Japanese Knotweed, Cats' Claw)
boneset
red root
tons and tons of eleuthero (Siberian Ginseng)
Tons of Chlorella (2000-4000 mg at least four times a day) and grapefruit pectin (I tested high in mercury last week, getting ready to start chelating)

more recently:
multivitamins
Vit C
Welchol (last few days)
milk thistle and liver support
turmeric/bromelain

for yeast:
garlic
oregano oil

lots and lots and lots of probiotics of all sorts, including homemade sauerkraut, rejuvelac, yogurt, and kefir

The following is a post I wrote on the Buhner Yahoogroup today, about 'how long it took' for me.

Keep in mind this is my second bout of treating this illness, I already attacked it for 6 months with antibiotics, and right now my goal is to try and experiment with no antibiotics at all:

I was on oral antibiotics for 6 months (with some herbs in the middle of that treatment). I quit on Thanksgiving, felt 100% 'normal', and decided
(with my LLMD's approval) to 'wait and see' what symptoms return (and also to get blood tests while not on any drugs/herbs, which maybe wasn't
necessary). About a month later ALL my old symptoms (except brianfog) came roaring back almost full tilt, with the additional strange effect that bartonella symptoms seemed to show up also (I didn't have them before other than during initial infeciton- roving bone pain among other
things).

I immediately jumped on the full protocol, with a LOT of chlorella (and now Welchol, a prescription cholesterol drug that happens to help brainfog in some Lyme and mold-allergy people).

It took about 10 days to stabilise my symptoms to where I'm not having "bad days", but I feel almost completely normal (ie symptom-free) again.

I actually had rapid improvement in energy almost immediately on the herbs (no welchol then) which I attribute to the huge amounts of eleuthero that I'm taking- the doses Buhner recommends of the really strong tincture.

If I can maintain this level of functionality without ruining my internal flora with more antibiotics I'll be happy to take all those
pills for a year, or at least to experiment and then later try again with antibiotics after the mercury is treated for a while.

Of course I pay a LOT of attention to taking all the many pills and otherwise 'trying' to get better- focusing a LOT of energy on fighting right now, with little to distract me from it.

I got tested for mercury (urine metals challenge test) and was high in it, so we're addressing that next with a long-term chelation program- it
seems like a likely cause of the 6 months of antibiotics not knocking it out completely and of me consistently having candida problems.

If I test positive for bartonella next week, I'm not sure if I'm going to try and deal with it with antibiotics or just keep at it with herbs/detox for a while to see what happens. Right now the herbs are treating me so well that I am willing to experiment for a few months (when I have few job responsibilities) as long as everything stays this
stable.

Again, I'm doing more than just the herbs- a lot of detoxing (and low-sugar diet for yeast control), I already wacked at the actual Lyme
for a long time with good successs with antibiotics, and I think I'm a relatively simple case- never been wheelchairbound or in severe pain, I don't seem to have neuro Lyme, I thought I didn't have coinfections.

Maria
 
Posted by luvdogs (Member # 9507) on :
 
Thanks Maria,

The interesting thing about eleuthro is that it is an adaptogen... if your body needs energy, it gives energy - if it needs to rest, it will help you sleep. It is not a true ginseng from what I know. Many Lyme patients would probably not respond well to some of the true ginsengs because they are so stimulating (not all of them, but most are ";hot" in nature).

I remember when I discovered that eleuthro helped me to sleep and I was astounded because of my sensitivies to stimulants, and I thought for sure that a ginseng would just keep me awake. But my herbalist friend insisted that I try it. And voila, it worked! It became a staple in my repertoire of sleep aides.

I am glad that you are doing so well on the protocol. It sounds like you have the bases covered! Keep it up and keep us posted and stay feeling good,

Sara
 
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
 
yes! adaptogens are an amazing tool in herbalism (and Traditional Chinese Medicine, I think)- they balance out imbalances in one's immune system, for example. Some adaptogens will raise levels of certain chemicals or immune system components if your immune system produces too low a level, or conversely can lower then if your immune system produces too high a level.

I did get quite 'high' for a few days when I first started the high levels of eleuthero this time around, it did level off quite a bit so I don't feel as 'too high' anymore. It probably took about 5 days to stop feeling 'buzzy'.

Some people do report that they can't sleep on eleuthero, though, and I think I've heard that you should avoid caffeine if taking it for the same reason. Buhner suggests not taking it after the morning/afternoon.

I ignored the caffeine advice, though.

[ 14. January 2007, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: MariaA ]
 
Posted by Jennifer Geddie (Member # 9097) on :
 
Thank you so much Maria!

I just ordered andrographis ( am still on doxy ) and plan to gradually add herbs on the core protocol. It is WONDERFUL to hear that you are living a much more normal life. Yippee!!!

There have been enough convincing testimonials to Buhner's protocol. I know I can not do ABX forever as they presnt too many problems .

How long have you had lyme disease ? Were you on ABX a long time?

I have been on doxy almost 14 months and still feel fluish and tired ALL OF THE TIME . I have made minimal progress .

Please keep us updated on your progress .

thanks , jennifer g
 
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
 
I had chronic Lyme for 6 years, and responded well to 6 months of oral antibiotics. It seems that there are other underlying issues, such as metals toxicity, so my LLMD thinks I should have been better by now since it seemed like a fairly simple case.

Anyway, I think the antibiotics did a great job of giving me a very successful 6 months and allowed me to get a lot done, and now I have the 'luxury' to experiment with more serious 'underlying issues' healing, including mercury detox, immune system support, getting blood tests done, learning more about the disease now that I don't have brainfog- things I didn't even have the energy to do in the beginning of treatment.

I'm not emphatic about avoiding antibiotics, but think it would be just great if I managed to treat without them for a while, as I started feeling the side effects of antibiotics worse than I was feeling the Lyme symptoms after a while.
 
Posted by Jennifer Geddie (Member # 9097) on :
 
Maria,
If you are wanting to avoid ABX overload , you maight consider adding salt/C or rife to your regimen sometime in the future to augment what you are trying to accomplish.

I think you have made great progress for only six months ! Good luck !
 
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
 
I am able to take full bore of Buhner's herbs now. At first because of my GUT issues, I had to go really slow. But was able to ramp up in about a month. I never went to his max of 4 pills, 4 times a day. I went to 4 pills, 3 times a day.

My biggest improvements came when I quit the abx and then started the C-Salts from nutri.com.

Then my gut issues got much better, almost perfect. I do notice lately that I get a little stomach pain IF I eat too much candy. (Sugar).

I do have a different system though than most of you, I am sure. I had severe Colitis and lost my whole colon back in 1994, so have an ostomy. I canNOT take Siberian Ginseng at all. I tried it, but it burned my skin so bad, I had to stop ,and it took weeks to heal.

Jennifer; I can understand you not making much progress on abx. I am a little surprised you stayed on one thing even that long. We NEED to do different things from time to time or our systems get into a rut. And nothing really changes.

Today, I am dropping from my 3/4 regimen down to half of my maximum regimen. I am thinking of going back to Andrographis soon again too, as I have been on Coptis now for a few months. I also quit the vitamin B complex tablets I was on as I have been having pain urinating ever since I started them.

It has gotten better the past couple of days, but not gone away, so I may go on an abx for a few days to see IF that helps; IF I don't see more improvement by tomorrow.

Abx do have their place, but I don't believe it is good for our systems long term either. I think many docs are grasping for straws when they put people on them long term, because they don't know of anything else. That is all they are "trained" for.

Well, need to get off to bed soon. Till another day.
Jim [Cool]
 
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
 
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