I had a bad reaction to both flagyl and tinidizole. Right now we are gonna check out if it's a yeast problem, which is fed by sugar, which ferments and turns to alcohol. So the theory is I may not even have to drink alcohol to get sick.
The Brorsons found grafefruit seed extract stronger than any abx in vitro. I assume in vivo studies on mice have not been done.
So all we have to fall back on is your experience.
Posted by 5dana8 (Member # 7935) on :
At the last week of every month I use GSE.
I take one 150 in the morning & one at night.
I ahve been working up to the 2XD dose. I was just taking one a day for quite a while.
I do herx from it. The only side effect is more dry eye.
Hope this helps Dana
Posted by Hides1 (Member # 6348) on :
I was going to Dr B. on Long Island and he had me doing Flagyl for the cysts. Now that I don't have him anymore and see Dr. H in NY- they are recommending the Grapefruitseed extract.
I haven't used it long enough to determine what it is actually doing. But they did tell me it is for cysts and said it was discussed in length at the last Lyme conference.
Posted by ldfighter (Member # 9405) on :
Does anyone know what Dr. H or others who recommend grapefruit seed extract say about the studies suggesting it's just the preservative in the GSE that kills bacteria?
Not trying to be argumentative, I'm really just curious and trying to sort this out. Would be great if this works for cysts.
Posted by Jill E. (Member # 9121) on :
Has anyone definitively decided whether GSE could have a harmful interaction with antibiotics the way grapefruit can because of the P450 cytochrome detoxification pathway in the liver?
I keep asking various doctors about this but no one seems to know if the Grapefruit Seed has the same risk as grapefruit/grapefruit juice.
I know there have been a few posts here on Lymenet where the belief was that GSE does not pose the same risk.
However, for those who know Dr. H's protocol, is GSE given when the patient is off all other antibiotics or not?
Hey, Jeff, is your doctor familiar with the D-Arabinotol test for invasive candida? I can send you the info if you'd like.
Thanks, Jill
Posted by humanbeing (Member # 8572) on :
What dose does dr. H give it?
Posted by Marz (Member # 3446) on :
I took GSE liquid 14 years ago after antibiotics and diflucan. It's cheaper than the pills. It's very bitter but I'd put it in juice and gulp it down.
Now that I've relapsed I tested very very low for candida and I think it's because I took the GSE for a long time after the diflucan treatment.
I think I took it for a year.
I plan to get back on it when my current prescription for Nystatin runs out since it's cheaper.
Marz
Posted by Marz (Member # 3446) on :
Sorry, I see now I got off topic which was using it as a cyst buster, not for candida.
Maybe I'll start again right away for the cysts!
Marz
Posted by ldfighter (Member # 9405) on :
There's also an article from the Townsend Letter Feb/March 2005 by an herbalist who does NOT recommend it because of the issue of preservatives:
I wonder if Dr. Brorson tested preservative-free GSE? Anyone know?
Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
I was also put on it by Dr. H, however, no particular dose was given. So, I follow instructions on bottle.
I am also interested in knowing about the possible interaction though, especially as I'm going to be trying Biaxin again and I think those interact.
Posted by Lisianthus (Member # 6631) on :
I have been using GSE for over a year. I had only been using it for Candidia, not knowing it had other benefits (cyst buster) But interesting...
I take it away from my abx usually 12 hours later...
Lisi
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Are you trying to inactivate the P450 liver enzymes thus increase alcohol levels to alter Bb's outer lipoproteins..thus prevent your " allergic reaction" to Bb's outer cell wall?
Alcohol "dries" ALL PROTEINS!
Let's be more "selective".
Chemo versus radiation therapy...make the entire body toxic or hit the infected cells only?
We need to TARGET this pathogen. Find its weak spot.
We KNOW what can destroy Bb, but they are all failing for different reasons:
KCL, nitric oxide, superoxide free radical, calprotectin, our own antibodies (IF they were healthy), etc.
And...
Borrelia burgdorferi grew more slowly in iron-depleted than in iron-sufficient media. The addition of increasing concentrations of iron stimulated borrelial growth and resulted in the intracellular accumulation of this element.
Compared with iron-starved borrelia, iron-enriched organisms showed enhanced sensitivity to hydrogen peroxide.
Intracellular iron-content did not, however, influence susceptibility to killing by human polymorphonuclear leucocytes [corrected].
PMID: 1874405
Melatonin is increasing for many reasons...it binds iron...from a different angle than Bb does, it appears.
It looks like lactoferrin versus transferrin...N binding locations versus C binding locations...perhaps.
Posted by sweet pea (Member # 6495) on :
I met a woman who said that grapefruit seed extract cured her of Lyme disease. Nothing else.
I'm intrigued that Dr. H. is recommending it now.
Posted by Health (Member # 6034) on :
I used Grapefruit seed extract before I found out I had lyme.
I used it many times with different ND's throughout an 11 year period. It did help me, but I still became severely ill with lyme over the years
then saw a LLMD and here I am on antibiotics.
I have read somewhere and actually printed it out that Grapefruit seed extract
could/may interfere with the tissue uptake of the antibiotics.
I dont know if this is so, but I would watch my progress while on it with the antibiotics and see if you get better, stay the same, or get worse.
Trish
Posted by Beverly (Member # 1271) on :
I took grafefruit seed extract for yeast and it worked good. I didn't know it killed cyst forms or was as strong as abx..wow.
Posted by Beverly (Member # 1271) on :
Trish, I also read that GSE could interfere with the tissue uptake of the antibiotics. And something about a possible heart reaction? Or something to do with the heart, if you mixed it with Difulcan or Zithromax, which I was taking at the time.
I can't remember where I read it now..wish I saved it in my files. I think maybe it was a newspaper article...hmmm?
It sure would be nice if it did cure us all of lyme. Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Is Dr. H recommending a specific brand? Is it the standard Nutribiotic brand or something else? Thanks
Posted by sweet pea (Member # 6495) on :
Scott,
You reminded me with your post that I think that Nutribiotic is the brand that the woman I met took.
Posted by lymeladyinNY (Member # 10235) on :
I used grapefruit seed extract for about a month last fall - it seemed to work because I herxed on it.
I was all excited about it but at my next visit to my LLMD she told me to stop taking it. Something about the way it's manufactured and a lot of impurities get in.
Forgive me for not remembering the details of what she told me - my memory isn't great.
Posted by 5dana8 (Member # 7935) on :
here's a direct link about the difference between Nutibiotic vs citricidal ..
ps: I am not on abx right now so anyone who is should definetly talk to their doctor about GSE.
There's no way of knowing if it is hitting the cysts but I have a definite die off when I pulse this in one week a month....so I know its hitting something.
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
Lets remember that Wikipedia is full of people with an axe to grind (WIkipedia policy tries to avoid this("neutral point of view" or NPOV policy) but it's only as well-enforced as the watchdogs who care about the particular topic).
That article has major flaws- click on the 'discussion' or 'talk' page to see some of them. For instance the guy tries to discount one study by saying that it was the ethanol in the liquid GSE that caused the effects in the study, not the GSE itself. Ethanol's a big-sounding word but it's just vodka- not likely to be the cause of antimicrobial action, besides, lots of drugs are prepared with ethanol.
Posted by liz dobell (Member # 8078) on :
hI,
I'm a patient of DR H (Hyde Park, NY) & he too told me to take grapefruit seed extract.
the Brand he uses is: PURE ENCAPSULATIONS dosage prescribed to me: 2 tabs per day (each tab contains 250mg grapefruit seed extract)
i hope this helps
Liz
Posted by Jill E. (Member # 9121) on :
quote:Originally posted by liz dobell: hI,
I'm a patient of DR H (Hyde Park, NY) & he too told me to take grapefruit seed extract.
the Brand he uses is: PURE ENCAPSULATIONS dosage prescribed to me: 2 tabs per day (each tab contains 250mg grapefruit seed extract)
i hope this helps
Liz
Hi Liz,
Does this mean that he allows GSE to be used while being on antibiotics? Or are there any specific medications he said to avoid while using GSE? Is he using GSE mostly as a cyst-buster or for overall bacteria/fungus killing?
Thanks so much for the information you are providing, it's very helpful.
Jill
Posted by liz dobell (Member # 8078) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jill E.: [QUOTE]Does this mean that he allows GSE to be used while being on antibiotics? Or are there any specific medications he said to avoid while using GSE? Is he using GSE mostly as a cyst-buster or for overall bacteria/fungus killing
Jill
Hi Jill,
yes Dr H told me to take grapefruit seed extract whilst on abx (i'm on doxy & plaquenil)
No he didnt tell me to avoid anything whilst on it
yes he told me to take it for cyst busting
i havent had any notable die-off from it yet - been taking it for 2 weeks . (i usually get massive herx reactions from flagyl when busting cysts so dont know how powerful it is??)
let me know if u want any more advice on what DR H uses - only pleased to help out
Posted by Jill E. (Member # 9121) on :
Thank you, Liz, for your excellent information!
Jill
Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
I'm also a patient of Dr. H's and I was not instructed to take any particular brand, so I have Vitamin Shoppe ones. Take 3 a day. Have been taking them with my abx. Was not instructed to avoid taking with meds or not.
DLL
Posted by robi (Member # 5547) on :
I know we want to help each other but we should not give dosages a particular doc prescribes. We are all different and treatment is individualized. What is safe and effective for one may kill another.........
Please be careful about posting specifics of what your doc is giving you.
robi
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Okay...spirochetes ferment sugar to ethanol/alcohol.
If we don't have ENOUGH alcohol dehydrogenase to breakdown the alcohol (men have more than women), then:
Alcohol: Principally metabolized by alcohol dehydrogenase, but acute use can lead to enzyme inhibition, and chronic use may
CYP3A is responsible for the ***metabolism of most of the body's endogenous steroids***.
This enzyme is breaking down the "sex" hormones.
Now...what IF this enzyme (CYP3A) is being OVERproduced?
"But if levels of the enzyme are too high, drugs are broken down too fast to be effective.
Production of CYP3A is boosted when substances binds to the so-called steroid X receptor in liver cells.
Various hormones bind to this receptor, so the higher their concentrations, the faster they are broken down--a negative feedback loop that regulates their levels."
It looks like retinoic acid levels also play a part in triggering this enzyme, if it is too LOW.
Retinoic acid (vitamin A) normally INhibits this enzyme.
Are high levels of CYP3A bad?
Not necessarily. Soy protein looks to trigger this enzyme and is very cancer protective (Japanese diet). They can "detox" faster.
Know what else stimulates CYP3A?
St. John's Wort...(H16 once again!)
Hypericinin , C30H16O8 St. John's Wort
Which we KNOW lowers the effectiveness of...birth control pills.
We're talking..."reverse endocrinology". Breaking down the steroid hormones.
Why? The cholesterol pathway is "upregulated". The steroid hormones come FROM cholesterol.
While we need some cholesterol and we need some steroid hormones...
Once again...too much is not good.
Now...back to the beginning.
Too much ethanol/alcohol for us to handle.
It would be nice if we knew how to make the enzyme that breaks down alcohol, but so far we have been unsuccessful at making it in a lab.
This is why, when college kids drink way too much alcohol...all we can do is pray that they have enough "time" to process it out of their systems while on life support before too many brain cells are destroyed.
While researching this morning...guess what I found:
"Insect alcohol dehydrogenase family signature"
What? Do insects have the ability to break down alcohol?
Now...back once again to the diet of the Western Fence Lizard...
Chocolate covered ants anyone? (Just kidding!)
[ 03. February 2007, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
Wonder why it is that the only thing that seems to help me during and for several days after a die-off is grapefruit juice? Thirst is one of my herx reactions and can go on for days or weeks even. Grapefruit juice is the only thing that seems to alleviate and restore water balance.
Maybe too much CYP3A is bad for some of us. Or maybe I missed something in the research.
Maybe I need to try GSE...
Claire
Posted by mag (Member # 8920) on :
hi there,
used this when i had the neuro borrelosis. it does cross the blood brain barrier. not sure about the action on the cyst form.
Still causes major herxing for me - - I take it every month. Interestingly- when i eat the whole grapefruit -- seed and all - I herx
Taking the chlorella and cilantro after some time helps with the die off
mags
Posted by JeffM (Member # 8919) on :
OK now I know why I am feeling "worse" this past week. I've been taking 500 mg grapefruit seed extract in pill form (can't take the liquid, yuk) 3 times a day. I am going to slow down on it.
And Marnie, the evidence you talk about, which I don't really understand (not a biologist) . . . what does it mean? It seems to point to one thing clearly, why we should not be drinking any alcohol at all during this treatment.
Posted by 5dana8 (Member # 7935) on :
JeffM
I don't really understand the science means either...my lyme brain doesn't work so well lately. I do so wish I could be able to understand more...
But what I do know is every last week of every month when I take the GSE I herx & feel really worse-its hitting something...just not sure what.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Dana
![[group hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)