After 21 months of multiple kinds of abx, I think I may be ready for a new stage. The abx have helped me a lot, and, I think caused a lot of other problems.
I have extracted the core of the Buhner and Cowden protocols, which I think (hope) I can manage. Here's the proposed protocol for the next 6-12 months, what does anyone think?
Andrographis paniculata 1600 mg 3-4 x daily (Resveratrol) 1-4 tablets 3-4 x daily Uno de Gato (Cat's Claw) 5 drops 1 x daily Astragalus Not indicated in late stage lyme 0 Cumanda 10 drops 3 x daily Chlorella A handful 15 min before meal Milk Thistle
Non herbal:
Diflucan 200 mg 1 x day for 2-3 months
Lots of water, at least 2 litres a day Organic vegetarian diet Selenium, 600 mcg day Vitamin C - a lot As little sugar as possible
Consider Dr. Zhang's protocol after book comes
Many of Buhner's herbs are crossover with aryuvedic and chinese herbs. I want to read and cross reference Zhang's herbs and Buhner's.
Cowden seems to like the two Peruvian herbs, Uno de Gato and Cumanda.
I started this journey exactly 24 months ago, when diagnosed, with Uno de Gato only, for 3 months. It did nothing I could feel.
Of course I've added daily yoga, bike rides and meditation to my interventions. Don't know if those would qualify as "medical" but they sure are good for mind and body. I'm just amazed I can do them at all!
Oh yeah, I have done bee stings and ozone for four months. Are they responsible for the turn-around? Who knows. But they did correlate with the improvement. Of course, that is after 17 months of abx.
I welcome your comments.
[ 05. April 2007, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: JeffM ]
Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :
An interesting combo. I would probably add in Sarsaparilla myself.
Most importantly, if you have not done these herbs yet -- START SLOW -- especially with the andrographis.
Hubby has not tried the Cumanda. Took regular Cat's Claw instead of the Samento drops. Can't remember if he tried Diflucan -- know he couldn't tolerate Nizoral.
Suggest you get the April issue of the Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients. It can be ordered by phone for $8.00 (postage included). There is an article on the Cowden protocol which includes some other different herbs.
Another thing missing is something for hypercoagulation -- Wobenzyme, bromelain, Nattokinase, Lumbrokinase, etc.
Good luck and be sure and report back on how you are doing.
As a minimum I would also suggest a good multivitamin/multimineral.
Am also curious as to whether you have been diagnosed or treated for coinfections?
Bea Seibert
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Agree with Bea! Good guidance.
Posted by JeffM (Member # 8919) on :
Thanks, Bea.
Got the Townsend Newsletter from my doc, which is why I am combining the protocols. I may be doing more of his exact protocol after speaking with doc.
However, I will tell you the truth. Cowden's protocol is complicated. It's too complicated for me. There is a core to it which I am following.
Yes I was treated for the coinfections. The mepron worked, I think, and was a GI killer for me. However, I never had Bart symptoms as far as I can tell.
Right now I am trying to find Klinghardt's cyst buster.
I also quite frankly do not know why people don't do more bee sting therapy. I think it had incredible effects. I think it is a very powerful medicine for lyme.
Posted by JeffM (Member # 8919) on :
I see why you say wobenzyme. I will have to figure out where to get it.
I don't do the bee venom, but the first, real bee sting. My doc feels it has many more therapeutic agents than just the venom.
Posted by Ruth Ruth (Member # 11059) on :
Hey Jeff,
I'm making a quick visit to the boards... too busy to stay long ... but I admire your willingness to give this a try.
But you might find it useful to hear that I have really been helped with the Vitalzym for dealing with the hypercoagulation issues. Also, since it has the serrapeptase that seems to help with inflammation/pain quite a bit.
I buy it in the 450 capsule bottle from iherb.com and take 5 on an empty stomach twice a day. I tried going off it to see if it really made a difference and I was miserable until I added it back in.
I sure wish I had time to comment more on your plans. I think you are heading in a good direction.
Just listen to those with more experience and go really SLOW adding herbs. Otherwise you won't be able to sort out what is happening enough to plot your course. (My experience.)
Peace to your house.
Posted by jbuckley (Member # 11468) on :
I have not tried any herbal courses yet, but I guess my biggest question would be do they cross the BBB? Most of my sympotms are nero, and I know there are only a handful of drugs that can cross the BBB, has anyone reads anywhere if they do or not?
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
"Selenium, 600 mg 3 x day"
Are you sure???? You might want to read up on selenium.
Take care.
Posted by Ruth Ruth (Member # 11059) on :
JB,
Two thoughts:
1. Some Israeli research shows that high stress (like fighting on the front lines of a war) opens up the BBB so things that normally don't cross it begin to cross it.
2. There are herbs seem to be specific for bringing healing to the brain. Stephania Root is recommended by Buhner for neuro symptoms in lyme.
You might want to head to your local bookstore and browse through some herbal books, or search online.
Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
Wow! Your program looks to me like a prescription for a death-dealing herx! Please take it slow and add in one herb at a time.
We are all different though. Cat's Claw in large doses had no effect on me. However, I herxed unbearably on even small doses of Samento for over 3 years, and though I did the Cowden Protocol for over six months and did not find it too complicated, I could never get my Samento dose near to what it required, due to the herxing.
Cumanda also packs a powerful, delayed herx. You think you are handling it OK, so you up the dose, and on the third day, wham, it knocks you flat.
Andrographis stimulated my TH2 immunity too much and dramatically raised my problems with MCS. I hope it does not have that effect on you. If you don't have MCS and are not "allergic to everything", it may not trouble you like it did me.
I did the full Zhang Protocol for six months. All it did was make me stink of garlic. My husband could not stand my smell, and I had to explain to everyone why I smelled so bad. It took another six months before I could stand to cook with garlic again. It was also very expensive.
As for bee sting therapy....I am saving that for the day when all of this misery gets to be too much for me. I can just go out in my garden, where there are lots of bees, and end it all with just one sting. I am very allergic!
Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.
Klutzo
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
From MY experience, I find the following herbs crucial in healing Lyme.
They are listed in order of most important to take FIRST. Then add in the others.
Sarsaparilla, Milk Thistle, Red Root Tincture, Cat's Claw, (whole), Devil's Claw, Resveratrol, Andrographis, Stephania Root, Periwinkle, and Nettle.
And IF you are taking LOTS of vitamin C, be sure to use something like C-Salts from nutri.com.
Others can be added in later, IF you feel you need them.
Start slow. And IF you do them in the order above, you should NOT have any problems with any big herxes.
Jim Posted by mag (Member # 8920) on :
Hi JB,
I really focused on the Blood Brain Barrier herbs because of all my brain lesions (MRI hyperintensities). Grapefruit Seed Extract, Samento and Garlic ( Dr K protocol for Garlic) works well for me.
It seems that some people do not have to worry as much about the BBB. some of the Cowden and Buhner abx herbs work well for me
I use the Chlorella Cilantro with meals - helped me immensely with the toxins. I have seen some of Gigi's post on this - an excellent resource.
I also use Niacin, Sarsasparilla Using a heat source- spa or sauna with exercise helps- but hard to keep up with Keep on reading to get the right cocktail
Are you able to treat your co- infections first?
get well
mags
Posted by JeffM (Member # 8919) on :
4 days on this protocol fully and I feel nothing. No herx. I think my GI tract is healing after the onslaught of abx and mepron.
I do feel a little lightheaded as I make the transition.
Hmmmmm. No herx. Good thing or bad thing? I am taking it as a good thing.
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
Jeff,
I felt no herx on the Buhner herbs either, but yet I"m steadily getting better (virtually symptom-free actually now with no antibiotics).
I eventually experienced three mild herxes when starting 'add-on' herbs- boneset, stephania, and teasel all produced some mild symptoms in me for a couple of days- but the core protocol never has.
I had previously treated with doxycyclene before I first tried the Buhner herbs, though- and, like me, you've already beaten this bug down with a long course of other drugs, including the spirochete-specific ingredients in bee venom, so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't experience an extreme herx. (I also didn't feel any noticable herx while on antibiotics, but I was on chlorella, bentonite clay, Welchol, and several other binding agents at the same time which may explain why it was a painless process)
Everyone's different.
My protocol looks a bit like yours including lots of chlorella and detoxification stuff. I think that probably helps with the side effects of bacteria die-offs or other herx-like effects.
Posted by JeffM (Member # 8919) on :
I am feeling irritable. It's a physical feeling more than a psychological feeling. I wonder if some or one of these herbs causes irritability?
My family better watch out. Or vice versa. I'm not really fit to be around human beings this afternoon.
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
I experience something that I call a 'honeymoon effect' when I first start new strong herbs or drugs that I haven't taken before- where I initially tend to be more energetic and it then levels out after a couple of days. When I re-started the Buhner core protocol and a lot of eleuthero this winter after having been really sick with a Lyme relapse, I was kinda 'high' (like too much caffeine) for a couple of days- that sounds a bit like waht you're describing.
But, this is pure speculation on my part.
Posted by JeffM (Member # 8919) on :
Thank you for all your comments.
In the last week I have been MUCH worse. Mostly tired and achey, with joint pain returning, and sickly in the mornings.
I found this 100-day protocol on the web, made by a company (won't name it) that had the core Buhner / Cowden protocol so I got that. It's been since then that I have felt worse (= herx).
So I'm gonna take your advice and back off, and then add one thing at a time.
Does it make any sense that I think it is the cumanda that is causing most of the herx?
Anyway, I think I'll stop everything for two weeks, except the diflucan and samento, and see what happens.
It's discouraging to lose ground, e.g., functioning and to feel that this means the bugs are still there, and there is quite a long way to go.
My LLMD says I am in the "clean up" phase, but I wonder . . . . I wonder whether the rocephin just caused a lot of cyst form, and now they are coming out. Yuk.
I know I am preaching to the choir, lol, but man, this disease causes a lot of suffering.
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
Yes, there IS a lot of suffering with Lyme. I have had if since 1999, and it certainly is not over yet.
I do feel much better though, since I went to herbs only, back in February of 2006.
I have "good" days, and "bad" days and days in between.
Nothing that I could call herxing though.
Jim Posted by lunagirl (Member # 10062) on :
Not sure if this will be helpful at all, but Buhner has just answered the question of someone on the Cowden Protocol on his Healing Lyme column on Planet Thrive. It's not really a general response though and is more specific to the person's particular symptoms...
Posted by Ruth Ruth (Member # 11059) on :
Jeff,
Sorry you are experiencing an increase in symptoms. I feel like I'm on that same roller coaster right now.
I'm off all the antimicrobials right now until I do some testing later this week and I can really tell. No fun.
When I was on the nutramedix extracts I really liked how the Quina was working for me. And all the detox, adrenal support, calming extracts were fine.
However, the Samento stressed me (hives) too much back when my adrenal function was way down. The Cumanda definitely worked but felt too harsh for where I was at back then. But I believe that once I can strengthen the endocrine system more, I will rotate them back in again.
I have actually used my 'high octane' Stephania Root tincture for the past week (at low dose) and feel really good (not from the alcohol!) about using it. I am not using any of the other 'core' herbals right now, but lots of supportive supplements.
But, just when I was thinking I was doing Ok yesterday, I overdid it (4 hours) in the sun doing very light yard work (mostly on knees pulling weeds, slowly) and it didn't go well for me. Headache, scratchy eyes, pain, etc.) I'm even feeling stressed and depressed today which hasn't been around for a while. Very frustrating.
Anyway, for a thought on your plan. You might want to back off the Samento too. Bring down the dose on the antimicrobials and focus on the detoxing, support supplements until you feel a little stronger.
Peace and Hope to you.
Posted by lalalu (Member # 10854) on :
It is great.
Posted by Annxyz (Member # 9097) on :
I tried the andrographis and felt it was an EFFECTIVE antibacterial , BUT, it caused problems for me . I had nasty insomnia, anxiety , and some depression ( even on zoloft ) . It also caused me to be literally unable to taste anything .
I am the exception, as most people tolerate it well, but it did have a bad effect on brain chemistry in my case .
Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
The cumanda can definitely increase anxiety and depression. I've been on it 7 weeks, and I can only take 8 drops twice daily. I've had to go very slow.
I can't tell you if it's working yet because I'm always herxing some time of the day.
Posted by Julz (Member # 12678) on :
How / where do you get the bee venom?? It looks very interesting. I mainly have neuro problems...does it break the BBB???
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
quote:Originally posted by Julz: How / where do you get the bee venom?? It looks very interesting. I mainly have neuro problems...does it break the BBB???
I find that Devil's Claw, Periwinkle and Stephania Root break the brain barrier.
Jim Posted by pamoisondelune (Member # 11846) on :
Don't forget Allimax, Teasel, and a mushroom formula. They are irreplaceable, in my list. I couldn't progress without those three. They seem to be fairly harmless.
Posted by aklnwlf (Member # 5960) on :
Calling all TC"s!! Calling all TC's!!! Need your help. Am jumping ship and going to new LLMD Well, really a new pactioner that treated me for 2 years.
Will try o finally have a biopsy of the rash and go from there. I break out everymonth on Tindamsx
Surely there are missing something. I tried to call you're home munber.
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