For the reasons mentioned above, I never recommend the regular ingestion of vitamin C as calcium ascorbate. The remaining mineral ascorbates are acceptable forms of vitamin C supplementation, but one can risk overdosing the cations if multi-gram doses of these forms of vitamin C are taken, with the exceptions of the sodium and magnesium ascorbates.
For regular daily supplementation, sodium ascorbate is an economical, well-tolerated form of vitamin C. While many wish to avoid the "C-flush" effect, it appears to be a very good way to keep the gut relatively detoxified and clean. For those wishing to have a near-complete absorption of their vitamin C dose, the liposome-encapsulated form of vitamin C is optimal.
For acute infectious and toxic states, I still recommend getting intravenous sodium ascorbate, usually at doses of 50 grams or more over several hours for most individuals. However, I would also recommend adding the liposome-encapsulated form of vitamin C orally at the same time. If the intravenous sodium ascorbate is not available, I recommend taking sodium ascorbate to bowel tolerance, and then taking the liposome-encapsulated form of vitamin C, several grams hourly, guided by symptoms and clinical response to determine subsequent dosing.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
This article is very exciting for me as I am getting my first IV Vit C tomorrow.
Luvs
Posted by ByronSBell 2007 (Member # 11496) on :
Hate to poop on the parade but the Vit C drips I received did next to nother for me, sometimes they will make you herx instead of feel better!
Posted by lalalu (Member # 10854) on :
I had two Nutritional IVs in the past 10 days, which included 50 gms of Vit. C. The first drip I had caused me to herx a bit during the IV...flu symptoms.
A few hours later, I felt FANTASTIC...like I could go for a run...although I know now of better ways to cull that healing energy.
The second IV had me feeling great afterwards for 6 hours or so. More than anything else, it provides me with a reference point of how I USED TO FEEL and how I can feel again once I recover from Lyme and its co-infections.
It is quite inspirational for me and I know my body loves me for it. Also, my LLMD strongly recommends them as a general boost to the immune system.
Lalalu
Posted by johnlyme1 (Member # 7343) on :
I would also ask your doc about eating some protein while on the IV. V-V will cause your blood sugar to drop - When I get the nutritional IVs that have a lot of V-C I get a bit goofy if I don't eat some protein with them.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
Byron,
I thought herxing was a sign it is working.
Luvs
Posted by bcox (Member # 2604) on :
Apologize to all about the difficulty in finding the site. The entire article from newmediaexplorer.org is very interesting. I am looking into this because of a case history of myself from over 10 years ago, where I was diagnosed with Epstein Barr. I located a clinic which provided me with the drips and the success went hand in hand. I assumed it just left being viral, but now that I do recall the drips were being done as well. (could have been lyme)
Posted by Blackstone (Member # 9453) on :
I had both IV Vit C and Hydrogen Peroxide, 1-2 each per week. The IVs themselves were incredibly painful, so much that I had to get a picc line. Not sure if that was illness related, chemical related from the vitc/hydrogen peroxide itself, or my veins. After I got the picc line, they were completely painless and I had no ill effects. I don't remember herxing too hard (except for bad dreams - night terrors, almost).
I don't think I had an improvement, especially not the improvement I was looking for. Possibly it made my "lyme rage" jump out of my skin feeling worse, but... I can't remember what that was attributed to. After a certain point all the symptoms and treatments begin to run together.
Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
High dose vitamin C via IV is in my experienced opinion a bad idea for Lyme patients, and a waste of $$. The reason the blood sugar goes down is because the body mistakes Vit C for sugar and releases massive amounts of insulin to compensate. IV Vit C almost put me in a coma many years ago. My blood sugar dipped to 16 and I was in bad shape. Low doses orally are ok, and I'd say up to bowel tolerance, and IV, a Myers cocktail is best, low doses plus essential vitamins and minerals.
Be really careful with this stuff you guys. You cannot herx from vitamins...look up the definition of herxheimer reaction, the term herx is being used too freely, it happens after antibiotics are taken, not everything under the sun causes herxing! Vit C will be released in the urine (expensive urine) because whatever your body does not need is excreted during and after the IV. Just be careful, and save your money.
Posted by cordor (Member # 9449) on :
I kind of agree with Wild Condor. My experience with IV vit C was not all that great. Caused my vein to go into spasms during infusion (NO other IV has ever done this)and also caused me almost instant nausea and dizziness. The nurse doing it said it was because maybe it was being pushed in too fast. Tried a 2nd time and same thing. I think Wild Condor's explanation about the insulin, etc explains probably EXACTLY what was happening to me. Thanks you for that info. I never did go back for more IV vit C because it was so horrible.
Posted by Annxyz (Member # 9097) on :
IV VIT C does kill pathogens , and my doc says it also kills cancer cells . And yes , it causes herxing .
The problem with this approach is that the IV's need to be done on a regular basis for a long time to do any lasting good .
Posted by jasonsmith (Member # 10914) on :
What are the different IV type lines you can have put in? Particularly for IV abx.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
Well great! I'm glad this is another clearly defined subject.
Geez!!!!
Luvs
Posted by robi (Member # 5547) on :
I had tehm for a while also. about 2 a week for 6 weeks. Actaully it was a meyer's cocktail not just Vit. C. Don't think it did much. I take Lypospheric C. Seem to help my Vit C level is high in my blood. It costs about $1.00 per 1,000 mg dose but it is highly absorbable, in single doses packs, LLMD recommended.......... no needles.
I am glad WildCondor brought up the herx thing ........ we really do over use it.
Found this in the archives:
Lyme Disease What is a Herxheimer Reaction? By Donna Herrell Founder, Lyme Disease Information Resource
Overview:
The herxheimer reaction, nicknamed "herx", otherwise referred to as Jarisch-Herxheimer (J-H) is a phenomenon originally observed in the treatment of Syphilis, but later found in other illness [1]. In general terms, it is described as a temporary increase of symptoms when anti-syphilitic drugs (antibiotics) are administered.
What is known or speculated about Lyme disease herxheimers are based heavily on the reactions seen in Syphilis. [2-3] This is due to the fact both diseases are caused by a bacteria known as a spirochete, the former being Treponema pallidum, the latter Borrelia burgdoferi (B.b). However, the herxheimer reactions in Lyme disease are not identical to those seen in Syphilis, especially in terms of timing, frequency and duration as noted below. [1-5]
In Lyme disease it is thought that the cause of herxheimers are the result of endotoxin release. [2,5] That is toxin(s) within the spirochete that are released as the B.b are killed or broken down. This may be a result of the toxin(s) itself or the body's immune response to such.
Symptoms:
As mentioned, the general description is a temporary increase in symptoms, but also included is the development of new ones. More specifically the most common events include: increased joint or muscle pain, headaches, chills, fever (usually low grade), hypotension, uticaria (hives) and rash. [1-5] A multitude of other symptoms have been described.
Worth noting is that hives and rash are sometimes mistaken for an allergic reaction. [2] It is up to one's physician to determine this. However, with close observation and proper treatment (see Treatment) may prevent unnecessary cessation of therapy.
In more severe cases of J-H, a reduction of the dosage or temporarily cessation of the treatment has been recommended [5].
Timing, Frequency and Duration:
This is individualistic and herxheimers can occur within days to weeks after the institution of antibiotic therapy. In some patients they occur only once or twice (if at all) and with others continue throughout the course of treatment, usually lessening in severity.
They can occur and are more often described in cycles (example: every 4 weeks) and have been reported to last from days to weeks. It can be very beneficial to document any exacerbation. Some physicians use this as a guideline for treatment. Further, it may help differentiate herxheimers from the normal symptoms or progression of Lyme disease.
Treatment:
Herxheimer reactions can be very difficult on patients and affect compliance with therapy so supportive measures should be sought or utilized to lessen discomfort if needed. The use of aspirin, NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs), pain medication, muscle relaxers, hot baths or others remedies can be appropriate. Of note, some have found Benadryl helpful even in the absence of rash or hives.
The good news is that the herxheimer is thought to indicate that the antibiotics are indeed working and that following each worsening may bring about more improvement. Though the lack of a herxheimer reaction should not cause anxiety if symptoms are improving.
Other considerations:
Something often overlooked but can present with similar symptoms is Candida (yeast) infection. Treatment with acidophilus and if needed prescription medications such as Nystatin or Diflucan can be utilized.
Sources of Information:
Lyme Disease 1991 - Patient/Physician Perspectives from the U.S. and Canada The Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction James H. Katzel M.D. Managing Lyme Disease 1996 Joseph J Burrascano M.D. Principles and Practice of Infectious Diseases 4th Ed. Mandell, Douglas and Bennett Seronegative chronic relapsing neuroborreliosis. Lawrence C, Lipton RB, Lowy FD, Coyle PK Eur Neurol 1995;35(2):113-117 The New Lyme Disease 1998 Joseph J Burrascano M.D. See Jarisch-Herxheimer / Jarisch-Herxheimer-like Reactions Lyme disease, Tick-borne Relapsing Fever and Allergy Document and reference collection (in progress) November 15, 1999 http://www.x-l.net/Lyme/abstracts/herx/herx.collection.html
This document is for informational purpose only and not written by a medical professional. This article may be copied for personal use. For republication in any format please contact the author at [email protected]
Herxheimer reaction From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search
Both Adolph Jarisch, an Australian dermatologist, and Karl Herxheimer, a German dermatologist, are credited with the discovery of the Herxheimer reaction.
The Herxheimer reaction (also known as Jarisch-Herxheimer or herx) occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as bacteria (typically Spirochetal bacteria) die, often due to antibiotic treatment and rarely due to the use of colloidal silver. Typically the death of these bacteria and the associated release of endotoxins occurs faster than the body can remove the toxins via the natural detoxification process performed by the kidneys and liver.
Symptoms are typically influenza-like, with musculoskeletal pain and inflammation, nausea and gastrointestinal complaints and heavy perspiration, night sweats and fevers.
The Herxheimer reaction was first noted in the treatment of syphilis, as a response to antibiotic treatment killing off large numbers of organisms. It is also well documented in Lyme disease[1][2] and tick-borne relapsing fever[3], infections which, like syphilis, are both caused by spirochetal bacteria.
[edit] References
1. ^ Maloy A, Black R, Segurola R. "Lyme disease complicated by the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction.". J Emerg Med 16 (3): 437-8. PMID 9610974. 2. ^ Lawrence C, Lipton R, Lowy F, Coyle P (1995). "Seronegative chronic relapsing neuroborreliosis.". Eur Neurol 35 (2): 113-7. PMID 7796837. 3. ^ Dworkin M, Anderson D, Schwan T, Shoemaker P, Banerjee S, Kassen B, Burgdorfer W (1998). "Tick-borne relapsing fever in the northwestern United States and southwestern Canada.". Clin Infect Dis 26 (1): 122-31. PMID 9455520.