As I was chewing on the duck from University of Maryland tonight (Edelman).. after 200 people notified me about his HORRID Lyme "expert" article in the Baltimore Sun newspaper today....
I stumbled upon this interesting abstract by the same fool that is NOW making Lyme seem like no big deal. I almost felt sorry for him cause I thought.. No one can be THAT stupid!
Looks like he wasn't THAT stupid. I think he knows EXACTLY what he is doing.
But that is only my opinion.
Am J Trop Med Hyg. 1986 Mar;35(2):355-9. Links Experimental inoculation of Peromyscus spp. with Borrelia burgdorferi: evidence of contact transmission.
Burgess EC, Amundson TE, Davis JP, Kaslow RA, Edelman R.
In order to determine if Peromyscus spp. could become infected with the Lyme disease spirochete (Borrelia burgdorferi) by direct inoculation and to determine the duration of spirochetemia, 4 P. leucopus and 5 P. maniculatus were inoculated by the intramuscular, intraperitoneal, and subcutaneous routes with an isolate of B. burgdorferi obtained from the blood of a trapped wild P. leucopus from Camp McCoy, Wisconsin.
All of the mice developed antibodies to B. burgdorferi which reached a peak indirect immunofluorescent (IFA) geometric mean antibody titer of 10 log2 21 days post-inoculation. B burgdorferi was recovered from the blood of 1 P. maniculatus 21 days post-inoculation.
One uninfected Peromyscus of each species was housed in the same cage with the infected Peromyscus as a contact control. Both of the contact controls developed IFA B. burgdorferi antibodies by day 14, indicating contact infection.
To determine if B. burgdorferi was being transmitted by direct contact, 5 uninfected P. leucopus and 5 uninfected P. maniculatus were caged with 3 B. burgdorferi infected P. leucopus and 3 infected P. maniculatus, respectively.
Each of these contact-exposed P. leucopus and P. maniculatus developed antibodies to B. burgdorferi, and B. burgdorferi was isolated from the blood of 1 contact-exposed P. maniculatus 42 days post-initial contact.
These findings show that B. burgdorferi can be transmitted by direct contact without an arthropod vector.
PMID: 3513648 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
"These findings show that B. burgdorferi can be transmitted by direct contact without an arthropod vector" thanks TC for researching.
Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
Wow, that's some VERY significant info there! If it applies to humans, it won't be too long when every single person will have Lyme! I really hope that study is flawed.
Posted by Vanilla (Member # 11155) on :
Someone here mentioned Dr. CD57 had mentioned that study to her so it appears he gives it some weight or at least some thought.
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
GOOD GRIEF!
What are you all doing up this late?
Is there a melatonin shortage or something? HA!
I thought I was alone here tonight. But not anymore! Nice to see you all!
But I am headed to bed now.
Get some sleep!
Posted by Geneal (Member # 10375) on :
Thats frightening.
I sure hope this study was flawed in some way, or heaven help us all.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Thanks, much, Tinny!
I KNEW I had seen a study like this about a year ago, but could never find it again.....
Boy, with evidence like this lying around since 1986 (date of study), it gets harder and harder NOT to be a 'conspiracy theorist'.
Why in the world are we being lied to by the IDSA and the CDC? I just don't get it. Avoidance of mass hysteria?
Tracy
Posted by merrygirl (Member # 12041) on :
I am new to Lyme, however I can't help make a comment regarding this experiment.
I am a vet tech and the only thing I can say is that mice carry tons of lice, mites and fleas all of the time, so unless the experiment irradicated all bugs living on the mice I don't buy it. Just my opinion Melissa
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Good point merrygirl. It would be intresting to know if they removed all other insects from the animals. My guess is that they didn't. Kind of scarey to think that they might be that careless. Might be more info in the full text of the study.
In any case the study is significant because of the fact that transmission occurred at all, whether it be by mites etc. or contact.
This may explain why so many people are positive via Bowen Labs.
Terry
Posted by lymednva (Member # 9098) on :
Merrygirl,
Those were my thoughts exactly. I wondered if they watched these animals with micro lenses to observe every LITTLE thing that happened! My guess is NO!
Posted by Kendrick (Member # 10990) on :
Since 1890, everyone has it now. No point in treating anymore if this is the case.
Posted by ldfighter (Member # 9405) on :
quote:Originally posted by merrygirl: I am a vet tech and the only thing I can say is that mice carry tons of lice, mites and fleas all of the time, so unless the experiment irradicated all bugs living on the mice I don't buy it. Just my opinion Melissa
Would that be true of mice bred in the lab? The only wild mouse involvement in this study is that the Bb isolate came from the blood of a wild mouse, then the isolate was injected into the lab mice. Doesn't look like there was any contact between these mice and wild mice.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by merrygirl: I am new to Lyme, however I can't help make a comment regarding this experiment.
I am a vet tech and the only thing I can say is that mice carry tons of lice, mites and fleas all of the time, so unless the experiment irradicated all bugs living on the mice I don't buy it. Just my opinion Melissa
Iam sure they are aware of that
Posted by merrygirl (Member # 12041) on :
I have no lab experience so I have to say my thoughts are just my opinion and concern.
Often times bedding alone coming into a pets cage can be contaminated with mites when you buy it. I am hoping and I bet that scientists are smart enough to realize all of this! LOL
I still don't buy it unless they prove there are no insects of any kind in the lab. Just my opinion.
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
I have no lab experience either but mites are everwhere so I would not expect it to be any different in a lab.
A very cursory search yeilds:
http://mbp.compmed.ucdavis.edu/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=43 Disease of the month - Acariasis (Fur mites): There are multiple species of fur mites that can infest laboratory mice including Myobia musculi, Myocoptes musculinis, and Radfordia affinis. Mixed infestations of laboratory mice is common and they typically favor colonization of the head and neck region, but can be evident in all areas of the fur in severely infested mice. There is some debate about the clinical significance of fur mite infestations and it likely is the result of strain variation among mice. Clinical signs may not be apparent, or the infestation can lead to a severe ulcerative dermatitis with pruritis. The diagnosis is made by examination of the pelage under a dissecting microscope and visualizing the small mites interspersed among the fur. Fur mites are transmitted among mouse colonies by direct contact. There are many pharmacologic agents available to treat and eliminate fur mites the most popular being ivermectin and pyrethrins. Care should be used in treating for fur mites as several strains of genetically engineered mice have adverse reactions to ivermectin therapy. The prevalence among conventional colonies of mice is reported to be as high as 40%, but is isolated on the UCD campus.
: Lab Anim Sci. 1984 Aug;34(4):393-4. Related Articles, Links
House mouse mites infesting laboratory rodents.
Levine JF, Lage AL.
Liponyssoides sanguineus, principal vector of Rickettsia akari, infested mongolian gerbils (Meriones unguiculatus) mice (Mus musculus) and laboratory-reared egyptian gerbils (Meriones libycus). Only a few mites were present on each animal and no manifestations of disease were observed. Numerous mites were present in the bedding.
PMID: 6482381 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
quote: Since 1890, everyone has it now. No point in treating anymore if this is the case.
Kendrick, I'm not sure if you really feel this way or if you are joking? As you probably know, people can have this infection and be asymptomatic so even if everyone has it, doesn't mean that they would have symtpoms. This is similar to HIV in some respects and viruses that can be dormant and not cause symptoms. If nothing else, the reason to treat is to get it into remission and stop it from further damaging the body.
My LLMD told me last week my husband should be treated at the same time I am as it can be passed through even saliva - otherwise we will "ping pong" it back and forth. How's that for scary?
Take care.
Posted by merrygirl (Member # 12041) on :
That makes me nervous.
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Let's bear in mind that this study was not done by a bunch of 12-year-olds doing a Science Project. These are researchers interested in advancing their individual reputations in hopes of obtaining funding for studies in the future. It is extremely unlikely that they sort of forgot about mites and other insect possibilities.
Given that the study was specifically targeted at transmission by direct contact (rather than by inset vector), failing to eradicate all insets in the experiment would be an idiotic blunder indeed.
Sad to say, but I'd wager that these poor little mice, their cages, and their bedding were subjected to near-fatal doses of pesticides of all kinds in order to insure the validity of the experiment. After all, these little creatures were probably killed after the experiment anyway, so exposure to near-toxic levels of bug-killers would not be a consideration for them. All sad but true in the world of research.
As someone said, perhaps the full text of the study tells the full story. I would expect it to make a point of clarifying the point we are discussing.
Tracy
Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
Can mites and lice pass Lyme on?
Posted by 8man12 (Member # 7664) on :
If it were passed by contact everyone would be on this website instead of out to the beach,water sking,etc.NO wonder the IDSA,gets articles published.
Posted by Sojourner (Member # 9424) on :
Not so fast....8man. Asymptomatic and/or latent infection might just be the rule and not the exception in lyme. Soooo, lyme could spread by contact, yet would not necessarily manifest in everyone in the way you suggest.
Wow...I don't think this kind of inquiry is AT ALL the reason IDSA gets articles published. I think it is probably too things----Stupidity and money.
Posted by humanbeing (Member # 8572) on :
Some suspect the Bb is part of the normal flora like strep and staph...this would mean it's all about keeping it down
Posted by von (Member # 8333) on :
quote: Given that the study was specifically targeted at transmission by direct contact (rather than by inset vector), failing to eradicate all insets in the experiment would be an idiotic blunder indeed.
Perhaps we are giving our researchers to much credit.
Just thinking out loud... If a person moves into a new house, with a new bed, how long would it take to get mites?
Are the researchers always sterilized before they enter the lab?
Was the wild mouse in the lab when they took his blood?
Von
Posted by grace1 (Member # 10347) on :
good find. too bad it's not in some major prestigious journal... since the IDSA only considers about 400 papers on lyme disease to be worthwhile.
i was thinking there needs to be research on other modes of transmission, with mice or something. ie. contact, open wounds, bodily fluids. pretty simple experiment.
a large percentage of people do not recall a tick bite or rash in their medical history. yet they are assumed to have been bitten by a tick if they have lyme disease. Where is the evidence? How can it be said that they were bitten by a tick if there is no evidence of it?
If all cases of unknown transmission are assumed to be from a tick, then it would be impossible to find out if there are other modes of transmission even if there are other modes of transmission.
It's circular reasoning. All unknown transmissions are said to be from a tick, since the only recorded mode of transmission so far is from ticks. So all recorded transmissions are therefore made to be from a tick. Repeat.
Posted by pamoisondelune (Member # 11846) on :
My LLMD told me, in regard to mice in a cage transmitting to each other, "Urine is suspect", i.e., I assume, licking the others' urine.
Posted by ldfighter (Member # 9405) on :
quote:Originally posted by 8man12: If it were passed by contact everyone would be on this website instead of out to the beach,water sking,etc.NO wonder the IDSA,gets articles published.
I'm also skeptical. But what's interesting is that one of the authors (Robert Edelman) IS a mouthpiece of the IDSA.
There are many examples of this happening. People who now tout the restrictive IDSA guidelines, dig into their past research and you'll find them saying very different things.
Posted by northstar (Member # 7911) on :
Yeah, you can almost hear the whoooosh,as these guys duck for the nearest underbrush, when their earlier research is displayed.
No wonder they behave as if scared and intimidated, by ILADS positions and chronic lyme patients, and , by appearances, have provided evidence of subtle and overt slander and misinformation. They seem to be afraid! Of their past, their future, and of the truth.
(IMO, of course !)
Northstar
Posted by ChrisBtheLymie (Member # 8916) on :
Why are there not more studies like this>????? This is what I can't understand. If there were 10+ studies showing that Bb can be passed on without an arthropod vector, then maybe people would start listening! We don't seem to have enough studies on our side to fight the IDSA, etc. I remember last year seeing a stduy done by the CDC on mice, which showed roughly 60% of non-infected mice were infected after having blood transfusion from infected mice.
We need more studies!
Posted by trueblue (Member # 7348) on :
Am I misremembering that Dr Burgdorfer was infected himself from rabbit urine?
I'm not so good at looking for substantiation but found an old LymeNet post (pre flash) and a reference in a radio interview transcript on Wilder Network.
No arthropod in that.
[ 11. June 2007, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: trueblue ]
Posted by merrygirl (Member # 12041) on :
Never thought of the urine contamination. that is a great point!!
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Urine, saliva, sexual secretions - take your pick. It could have been any or all of those things.
I raised a bunch of white mice at one time.....
.... they have sex A LOT - I think females go into heat about every 5 days or something - even all males in a cage will mount each other.... they all sleep in a big pile so plenty of casual contact there....
Several mice together in a cage have squabbles and fight and bite each other; they all share the same food bowl and "mouth" pieces of food before choosing the pellet/nut they want to eat; they all share the same water bottle or bowl; they groom themselves and sometimes each other so saliva is abundant there, too.....
It would be really hard to figure out which body fluid was the source of infection in this study.
I certainly agree - more studies of this nature needed! I think it is very suspicious that we don't find any.... why aren't there more studies of this nature since it is such important information?
Tracy
Posted by grace1 (Member # 10347) on :
quote:Originally posted by ldfighter:
quote:Originally posted by 8man12: If it were passed by contact everyone would be on this website instead of out to the beach,water sking,etc.NO wonder the IDSA,gets articles published.
I'm also skeptical. But what's interesting is that one of the authors (Robert Edelman) IS a mouthpiece of the IDSA.
There are many examples of this happening. People who now tout the restrictive IDSA guidelines, dig into their past research and you'll find them saying very different things.
many disease are transmitted by contact, but not everyone in the world gets it, or even most people. even when someone gets poison ivy most people will not get it from the person. in reality, how much "contact" do people have with each other. between most people, extremely little or none.
even so, it is known that the severity of the disease varies a great deal among people. it could be true that in most people lyme disease is a mild illness.
Posted by grace1 (Member # 10347) on :
anybody know how do we get researchers to do more studies like this?
Posted by Michelle M (Member # 7200) on :
Great points, all. Thanks TC; I hadn't seen this.
Why isn't more research being done?? I guess they'd have to first admit that lyme is a actual problem to invest in researching contact transmission.
And they can tell from this study that they don't want to go there.
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