For the past couple of days, I've been trying hard to get your attention.
It hasn't been working.
So...I will TALK you thru this (are you non-medically inclined persons smiling? I hope so!).
We KNOW for FACT that there is something in the Western Fence Lizard's blood that DESTROYS Bb.
"They" think it is a protein/enzyme = amino acids that is capable of destroying Bb. But they don't know which one.
I have found a HUGE connection...HUGE!
Within the last few days.
Apparently this lizard which hunts insects AT NIGHT (to eat) has more cones (than rods) in its eyes.
Keep in mind...it has to hunt in darkness. It has adapted to hunt in the dark by developing more cones in its eyes.
(What is the speed of dark?...Just throwing in a joke.)
Insects are very high in many amino acids. This lizard likes an acidic meal.
If this lizard gobbles up a LOT of acids all night long, it could die of "acidosis" so something has to counter this.
That counter looks to be cAMP.
This lizard makes a lot of cAMP!
(Those on this board for awhile might remember our discussion of Forskolin - supplement to INactivate PDE4 and *increase cAMP*.)
Now, what the heck is cAMP?
It is a second messenger.
What the heck is a "second messenger"?
Apparently glucagon and adrenaline cannot get thru cell membranes and require a "helper" to send the signals thru.
cAMP is a helper. It makes glucagon WORK.
cAMP (Yo...glucagon!)-> liver releases stored ALKALINIZING glucose to counter the acids. (Edited and bolded...ancora imparo)
The effect of glucagon is to make the liver release the glucose it has stored in its cells into the blood stream, with the net effect of increasing blood glucose.
Bb would RATHER stimulate gluconeogensis...using the liver to make glucose from pyruvate/lactic acid.
So...this signal (cAMP) helps to counter the "acids" the lizard is gobbling up by allowing glucagon to trigger the liver to release glucose (alkalinizing) stores.
But there is more!
cAMP's MAIN purpose is to activate protein kinases.
Don't worry about what they are...just know that Bb has a protein kinase INHIBITOR called a PKC inhibitor.
These cause cell death.
(We have a man-made a PKC inhbitor...it is called Tamoxifen...to destroy malignant breast cancer cells.)
So...Bb has this cell "death" gene...what does it do with it?
It triggers the cell destruction of the cells it invades.
That BEGINS with the epithelial cells that line our blood vessels. These are what Bb invades first.
Then...our "scouts" (on the look-out for invaders)= the Langerhans cells.. give Bb a "big hug" - envelop it - and attempt to carry it away to the lymph glands.
Along the way, these cells are supposed to begin to destroy Bb to present the antigens (proteins in Bb's cell wall) to T cells in order to make a perfect antibody "fit".
What we end up with is a lot of damaged and dying Langerhans cells infected with Bb clogging up the lymph nodes.
So...return to cAMP...IF cAMP can ACTIVATE PKC - a protein kinase, is it countering Bb's PKC INhibitor?
If so...theoretically..this would prolong the life and journey of the Langerhans cells to be able to present the RIGHT antigens to helper T cells to make the RIGHT healthy antibody.
(We know a lot of the antibodies we make are damaged - "fab" portion of the antibody.)
Another fact about cAMP is that it regulates the calcium channels...to add to the complexity of this!
Now...this gets tricky because:
Apparently LOTS of cAMP (Forskolin) as well as very little cAMP (Curcumin) BOTH INactivate NFkB...the cell call for "help!"
Now THAT is amazing!
I'm gonna let that sink in...and then I will try to continue.
How am I doing so far?
R.S.V.P.
[ 18. July 2007, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by lymemomtooo (Member # 5396) on :
Marnie, my grey matter is never what it should be but I continue to believe that you and a few others will figure this all out and save us..
And does Melatonin have any value? Think earlier you mentioned it was something that the lizard had, in large doses. lmt
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
Not sure what you concluded about forskolin before. From the other topic (curcumin) it didn't sound like forskolin was a good thing if it reduces cAMP?
(I followed the first cAMP lessons re: bioflavonoids, but I don't think I participated or read the later forskolin material -- will try to review later tonite).
Claire
[ 17. July 2007, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: clairenotes ]
Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
i'm completely lost like tutu, but thanks for your efforts! Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Hi Marnie -- I'm getting too sleepy to take this all in right now, but I do recall Bob Lane saying recently that the Western fence lizard has enzymes that end up in the tick's midgut and supposedly lyze the bacteria therein. Maybe you could contact him at UC Berkeley, if you haven't done so yet.
Posted by butchieboo (Member # 12063) on :
I'll give it a shot...
So this cAMP helps the glucagon and adrenaline stimulate the liver to produce glucose acidity in the blood.
The extra glucose acidity protects the langerhans cells by deactivating the BB PKC that would normally kill the langerhans on their way to the lymphs.
So, now we have the langerhans remaining intact and delivering the BB proteins to the T-cells.
Question: does the release of the glucose acidity that protects the langerhans also allow the langerhans to do their job..."begin killing the BB"?
Question: When the lanerhans delivers the BB to the T-cells...are the BB's sufficiently injured to that the T-cells can finish the job in the lymph node factory?
OR
Is there a resurgence of mr BB that injures the T-cells....
Hopefully they are killed....and thus killing the BB cells creating an antibody...will this in turn trigger our immune system to produce the
new and as yet never produced antibodies, in our bodies(which is being produced in the lizards body), to now go after the bb cells and
successfully kill and remove the bb cells from our system thru our own immune system???
I don't know....am I following you or not??
What does the fact that too much or too little cAMP both inactivating the NFkB have to do with the price of tea in china?
Do we have to find "just the right amount to set in motion the previous liver functions without preventing the "cell warning" system from alerting the langerhans?
...again...a question....what the heck does that have to do with more cones than rods in these nocturnal hunters eyes?
If I have any of this right...you're gonna have to buy me a shot of tequila!
BB
Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
Marnie- I do try to understand.
All I can think of are Nightcrawlers- we used to go searching for them at night with a flashlight. Let me know if there's any therapeutic value to Nightcrawlers-there the only critters I know how to catch at night.
Besides fireflies of course.
Now I have a headache because you made me try to work my brain beyond it's current capacity.
Take Care, Carol
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
You said on a previous thread:
quote: "...what is so weird is that BOTH curcumin (in tumeric - which is in curry) AND Forskolin appear to INhibit NFkB.
But they work opposite!
The former reduces cAMP and the latter increases cAMP.
I don't get that!
cAMP is a second messenger, used for intracellular signal transduction, such as
transferring the effects of hormones like
glucagon and adrenaline, which
*cannot get through the cell membrane.*
Its main purpose is the activation of protein kinases; it is also used to regulate the passage of Ca2+ through ion channels.
Low cAMP and the cell is deprived of glucagon and will die.
High cAMP and our helper (effector) T cells are given a boost...and now we have antibody protection."
I got my "formers" and "latters" confused!
Curcumin LOWERS cAMP, and forskolin INCREASES cAMP.
I don't get that either! Because curcumin/turmeric seems to really help the situation. It would seem that we would want to increase cAMP.
But I think you are simply saying that you have found a mechanism of strengthening the immune systems defense against Bb? But there are questions in how it might work...
Claire
Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
Marnie- does the European blackbird have this? I am not being smarty here- I don't know- and they are the other one that doesn't get Lyme- (Skinks only partially have effect).
Birds came from lizards re evolution so it would make sense that they share characteristics!!!
Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
SO. IN A NUTSHELL...WHAT DO WE DO??!! Posted by Skyler (Member # 11549) on :
This is awesome!!!! How exciting!!!!! This make sense! WE are moving down the right path here!
We might have a shot at an easy answer to lyme! How amazing!
wow...
my day has been made.
Who is doing this research on the lizzard?!?
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by bettyg: i'm completely lost like tutu, but thanks for your efforts!
That wasn't me, but I'm not getting it. Does this mean we have to eat lizards?? Posted by Allison Smith (Member # 11631) on :
Marnie,
You seem to know your stuff, or atleast know your research and I, myself, am grateful that you are of the mind to do such things.
But, seriously, just make it short and sweet and to the point so the rest of us can understand where you are trying to go with this.
I am an educated woman myself, but my Lyme makes it absolutely impossible to get through your posting. So let's try to sum it up please! Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
If you don't want to try to understand all of this (that's okay - I understand!), simply scroll down to the last sentence which I bolded.
Others, who are trying hard to understand...I applaud you!
Yes...some birds have more cones in their eyes too.
"In the human eye, there are many more rod cells in the retina than there are cone cells.
The number of rod cells and cone cells in animals is often related to the animal's instincts and habits.
For example, birds such as hawks have a significantly higher number of cones than do humans.
This let them to see small animals from a long distance away, allowing them to hunt for food.
Nocturnal animals (sleep during the day, awake at night), on the other hand, have
relatively higher numbers of rod cells to allow them better night vision."
Since the WFL hunts at night and has more CONES...the above doesn't make sense...until I found this:
"When all three types of cone cells are stimulated equally , the light is perceived as being achromatic or white."
This gets really complicated...I've been researching eye cones (rods and cones are in our retinas at the back of the eye)...which leads to other things...
Dopamine and the receptors for this! More in a sec.
Cones are shaped like triangles...which gets into the "delta" aspect, esp. delta glucose (dextrose) as well a d-ribose.
Do the abundance of delta shaped cones in the retina of the WFL counter Bb's PKC inhibitor
if Bb's inhibitor is PKC DELTA?
"revealed increased expression and phosphorylation of PKC delta , mu and theta in the rd1 retina at the protein level as well. PMID: 16503160 = more PKC delta in certain retina cells?
Apparently:
"The results provide in vivo evidence supporting the idea (derived on the basis of in vitro findings) that a mutually
antagonistic interaction
between melatonin and dopamine operates in retinas of living animals."
Antagonists ? ! When melatonin is up happy-go-lucky dopamine is down?
IF the cones in the retinas of the WFL are upregulating dopamine does this then force melatonin levels down?
Melatonin comes from serotonin which comes from tryptophan.
Bb needs tryptophan to survive.
It NEEDS melatonin to protect it from ROS which I believe normally could destroy it...superoxide, etc.
In other words...a LOT of free oxygen radicals (absence of melatonin) might be able to destroy Bb.
Unfortunately too many ROS...reactive oxygen species i.e., "free radicals" are really harmful to us!!!
And Bb is depleting our #1 antioxidant - glutathione via depleting cysteine and glycine.
So we have to use a back-up, #2 antioxidant...melatonin.
Sara, if interested, go to a PICTURE of the Synthesis of the catecholamines from tyrosine here:
Print it out to study it. Now we know cancer cells ( I believe infected initially!) are "undermethylated". See where SAMe is needed?
Are we making a lot of ephinephrine (adrenaline)...from dopamine - driving it lower, but epinephrine, though released
can't work, isn't effective,
because cAMP levels are too low?
And neither can glucagon work.
Since glucagon and adrenaline can NOT go thru the cells, they need the "helper signal"...cAMP to send the "message" thru.
Researchers are working on ways to detect blood glucose levels (instead of the needle picks) by measuring glucose concentration in our EYES!
Apparently,
"This led to the important discovery that the recovery of nerves, e.g.
the cones of the eye, is also
directly correlated with glucose concentration."
I do know from research a long time ago, serotonin uptake is directly related to glucose levels.
Lymemom too...melatonin helps us from excessive free radicals, but...it is helping Bb to survive too. Catch 22.
Claire:
Forskolin INCREASES cAMP.
Curcumin DECREASES cAMP.
But BOTH INhibit NFkB.
Which is weird! Pick ONE, not both.
Look at it this way. We have infected cells that are using a LOT of glucose. Use Curcumin to decrease cAMP further in those cells and the cells will die. Since Bb needs glucose too...curcumin should also impact Bb.
OR
Use Forskolin to increase cAMP in order to make a healthier defense system to do the same...destroy the pathogen via ultimately...antibodies - healthy ones.
Sounds good, right? Use either.
But if we use forskolin and we make healthier antibodies...
Antibodies are too big to cross the BBB if I remember correctly. They should work though in the rest of the body. Keep in mind, however, forskolin still reduces NFkB and lowers TNF alpha and Il 1 Beta levels...a good thing.
If we use curcumin and LOWER cAMP, remember...
Our brain cells need glucose...an ongoing supply.
Bb PKC inhibitor...protein KINASE INHIBITOR is, as I see it, the biggest problem.
This is causing our normal defensive cells to be destroyed.
Can we counter Bb's PKC inhibitor if it is PKC Delta by "flooding" the system with d-ribose AND simultaneously with d-glucose???
How much, how often and WHEN...to impact the circadian cycle?
Okay...Bb has a need for PFK...phosphofructo kinase . Remember the #1 job of cAMP is to ACTIVATE kinases. This enzyme (PFK) controls glycolysis. Bb maybe depleting that enzyme. Glucagon is the ONLY thing that activates PFK 1 and PFK2 (liver). Insulin activates only PFK1. But glucagon (to activate liver PFK2) can't enter the cells without help of cAMP.
"It was found that IL-1 beta markedly decreased beta-cell DNA synthesis, insulin secretion and cyclic AMP content.
Great...our body is blocking insulin secretion which would ACTIVATE PFK1- defensive move, but what about PFK2...only glucagon can activate both!
What does low cAMP levels do the liver?
In order to explore whether the decrease in cAMP resulted from IL-1 beta interaction with GTP-binding proteins coupled to adenylyl cyclase, islets were treated for 24 h with pertussis toxin prior to addition of cytokine.
While this treatment restored the decrease in cAMP, the reduced DNA synthesis and insulin secretion persisted.
Pertussis toxin treatment without the addition of IL-1 beta resulted in
increases in cAMP, DNA synthesis and insulin secretion ."
TNF alpha looks to trigger IL 1 beta.
Need to get BOTH down!
Want to talk about PKA...another protein kinase that increased cAMP might raise and how this kinase "flips the switch" between the Th1 and Th2 pathways?
butchieboo...
"alkalinizing effect of glucose"
Just because lemons are acidic, doesn't mean how they react in the body is to make the body more acidic.
On the contrary...lemons are alkalinizing!
I know...hard to understand!
Just try to grasp this sentence:
Apparently glucagon and adrenaline cannot get thru cell membranes
and require a "helper" (cAMP) to send the signals thru.
Thanks for listening.
We WILL find a way!
P.S. Robin, "Cholecystokinin Prkcd protein"... You don't suppose that means cholecystokinin is a Protein Kinase C delta? And Bb is lowering this enzyme? "Very low levels of cholecystokinin octapeptide activate Na-pump in the cerebral cortex of CCK2 receptor-deficient mice. Int J Dev Neurosci. 2006 Oct;24(6):395-400.
Oral contraceptives caused a suppression of basal levels of serum cholecystokinin, which was correlated to an increase in body fat ...
Counter.."beans beans the musical fruit...so eat those beans at every meal".
Chronic lyme statistics for Mexico?
[ 18. July 2007, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by 5dana8 (Member # 7935) on :
Marnie said "Apparently glucagon and adrenaline cannot get thru cell membranes
and require a "helper" (cAMP) to send the signals thru." _________________________________________________________
Maybe this is why we are so darn tired?
Thanks Marnie
Dana
Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
well I recognized the word melatonin- I tried a couple times to take it to help me sleep-but I had horrific nightmares.
Posted by hopingandpraying (Member # 9256) on :
Marnie - your posts are very informative. Have you contacted Dr. Fallon at Columbia University (Lyme Research Center) with this important information?
Perhaps we are on the verge of a breakthrough, God willing!! Thank you, thank you, thank you for your tireless work on behalf of all Lymies.
It is very, very, very much appreciated. Please don't EVER stop!!!! God bless you.
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Marnie -- I mentioned this once already, and would like to say it again: have you contacted Bob Lane at UC Berkeley to chat with him about all this? He's the lizard expert and I think you would have a good time chatting with him about all your scientific knowledge and questions. UC campus could give you his phone number.
Posted by lymemomtooo (Member # 5396) on :
Marnie, I am trying, you know I am but I am still not on the same page with you but please keep it up.
This is essentially important to me. My lymie developed type 1 diabetes at 16 and with her horrible psych issues, she is often off the meter. I keep telling the endo that it is somehow due to complications from LD.
He has always argued with me until I gave him copies of her recent brain spect scans. Now he does not comment..HE does not know anymore and doesn't want to cross the ducks at the hospital.
But the more I read about this glycogen and its use, the more I know that Lyme caused this.
She has also stopped using birth control pills. WELL talk about a mixed blessing!. ugh...She does seem to be coherent enough to know that alternatives are necessary. But she is convinced that the pills are causing weight gain..So will see if the beans will help with this..At least she is on another floor most of the day.
Now for the melatonin, she takes one nightly, so not sure with it being a mixed blessing if I should stop using it.
Some of the rest of the info is not computing well for me. I think you have found a couple of things that might work but too much may be dangerous, so will not rush to try it until you know more.
Can't figure out some of the rest of it except to know you are on to something big...Hugs..lmt
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Yes...I have contacted Fallon...no response.
Yes...I have contacted Lane and have 2 responses from him via emails. He's nice.
Yes...I have contacted Willy Burgdorferi and have a snail mail response from him (signed)in my possession. (I wrote him few years ago when I found that Romanian abstract.)
Yes...I sent files of documented research via snail mail to many of the LLMDs...Burrascano, Dr. C, etc. No response.
Yes...I sent information to Perricone and got snail mail responses (we are both interested in "healing the mitochondria"...he uses chromium + acids + low glycemic index diet).
I've also watched closely what Dr. Bruce Ames has to say about healing the mitochondria (powerhouses of our cells). In aging and in disease - oxidative stress is a HUGE problem.
Yes...I warned NB that DNP was far too dangerous from an electolyte standpoint. His email reply to me, "You could be right." Unfortunately, I was right.
I'm working hard in the background from many aspects to try to protect you WHILE trying hard to figure this all out. It is so incredibly complex.
I researched and sent info. to Tincup to help one of your LLMDs save her license. While I do not believe abx. CURE lyme, I understand how they HELP. BUT... I think it is wrong to prosecute/take away the license of a doctor who was trained (by the pharm. industry) that in order to cure an infection, we need to use abx.
I am determined to find a safe, cheap CURE for the masses.
That is, and always will be, my goal and I will NEVER take one CENT from my research. NEVER.
The ONLY benefit I receive from my research is this:
I am "exercising" my own mind. I am learning and this is ONGOING. Hopefully this will help prevent/delay the onset of senility! ;-)
Posted by butchieboo (Member # 12063) on :
Ok Marnie,
So I tried reading and understanding your long disertation and I get to the end and you tell me the sum of all that you previously had me read comes down to eating more glucons?
Do me a favor and PM me with the "punch line" next time....
I do have better things to do with my time...
Thanks for the recognition that I tried...do I get a prize?
Something nice and not TOO condescending would be swell.
See if your medi/laboratory cronies will get a kick out of this....
OH YOU KNOW! The ones' you DON'T have to talk down to....snicker snicker...
BB
Posted by BJG (Member # 4723) on :
Hi Marnie, Thank you for doing the research and sharing this with us.
First it offers us HOPE!!
I have read both posts several times. Although I have difficulty with the specifics I THINK I get the overall picture.
I am confused on the Curcumin VS Forskolm. Which one {Or Both} are we to take?
Thanks Again
Peace, B
Posted by listenswithcare (Member # 10719) on :
Honestly - I get lost in all of the medical/chemical jargon. I don't have a brain for it and it is exhausting to try to process. I need that precious energy to work and exercise and take care of myself.
So, I have to ask. Why is there never a conclusionary statement or statements in these posts. I mean, if there is something that I (or we) could do to help ourselves given this information, then what is that thing?
Or, what is it that I should take to my doctor? It needs to be succinct.
I am glad there are people on this list that have time and energy and understanding to research such things, but it does little good to me unless I have a bottom line.
So, cAMP is good. How do we get it (cucurmin)? How much is good? Can too much be bad? I take Turmeric Force. I will just keep taking it.
Robin
Posted by Aniek (Member # 5374) on :
Marnie,
I'm RSVPing to let you know how easy it was to follow your email!
For my non-scientific literary/activist/legal brain, I can't always follow your postings. But this one makes sense to me
-A
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
Marnie -- I am having a little trouble (well, more than a little trouble) following the neurotransmitter info in the beginning with the rods and cones and dopamine. I have to read it and then put it down and repeat this maybe several times.
My only question is:
quote:Forskolin INCREASES cAMP.
Curcumin DECREASES cAMP.
But BOTH INhibit NFkB.
Which is weird! Pick ONE, not both.
Look at it this way. We have infected cells that are using a LOT of glucose. Use Curcumin to decrease cAMP further in those cells and the cells will die. Since Bb needs glucose too...curcumin should also impact Bb.
OR
Use Forskolin to increase cAMP in order to make a healthier defense system to do the same...destroy the pathogen via ultimately...antibodies - healthy ones.
Sounds good, right? Use either.
But if we use forskolin and we make healthier antibodies...
Antibodies are too big to cross the BBB if I remember correctly. They should work though in the rest of the body. Keep in mind, however, forskolin still reduces NFkB and lowers TNF alpha and Il 1 Beta levels...a good thing.
If we use curcumin and LOWER cAMP, remember...
Our brain cells need glucose...an ongoing supply.
Bb PKC inhibitor...protein KINASE INHIBITOR is, as I see it, the biggest problem.
This is causing our normal defensive cells to be destroyed.
Can we counter Bb's PKC inhibitor if it is PKC Delta by "flooding" the system with d-ribose AND simultaneously with d-glucose???
How much, how often and WHEN...to impact the circadian cycle?
But if we flood ourselves with d-ribose and d-glucose will that not nullify the effects of the curcumin, which we are using to starve Bb of glucose/sugars?? Or did I miss something here again?
Does fruit help for those of us who are not dealing with strong candida issues? Doesn't it act a little differently in the body than other sugars?
Determining whether curcumin/turmeric or forskolin would be good may just require some experimentation? From an energetic point of view, my body says yes to curcumin and no to forskolin. But I understand this is very unscientific as intuition is considered unscientific. An LLMD's input could be helpful, too.
I think your brain will fare quite well into the future, Marnie. And maybe ours will too, due to all of these research challenges.
Thank you.
Claire
Posted by dguy (Member # 8979) on :
Marnie - your inductively-derived findings seem to agree with my empirically-derived ones. I'm particularly with you on the involvement of calcium, acid/base balance and PFK.
I think the challenge many here (including myself) have reading your posts come from the fact they are very theoretical. Most of us are not researchers, and therefore are simply looking for practical and specific advice on what to try. Of course, perhaps you cannot give such advice due to liability issues.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
dguy...you got it!
I try to document i.e., link medical research around the world.
If I "translate" info...it is not believed. If I document info., it is not understood.
I'm trying hard! But...
It is YOUR LIFE, YOUR DECISION. You decide whether or not you want to learn something.
I believe it is important to learn all we can to make the best decisions. Weigh everything the potential benefits against the potential harm.
Know HOW your abx. is working...like... is it destroying the pathogen's cell wall or preventing it from forming in the first place? Is it reducing inflammation? How...what cytokine is it impacting?
AND know the potential side effects of drugs - esp. re: impact on the kidneys and liver.
THEN decide if you think it is "right" for YOU.
Claire...
Knock off Bb directly (no glucose to those glucose upregulated infected cells) OR, I repeat OR, support our OWN immune system (antibodies need glucose) to do ultimately do the same...destroy Bb.
Curcumin/tumeric OR Forskolin.
ONE OR THE OTHER. Follow? I don't know which is best, but right now I am leaning toward forskolin 'cause I think our liver needs help. I suspect Bb impacts PFK 1 AND PFK2.
Either way it appears NFkB is inhibited...a good thing.
Claire...did you happen to catch that melatonin and dopamine are antagonists? Yikes.
And is cholecystokinin being downregulated? Is it a PKC delta protein?
Go to the link I provided to Sara. Print it out to refer to.
Epinephrine is adrenaline and norepinephrine is noradrenaline. They've simply changed the name...who knows why?
Anyway...when we "fight" a disease, our adrenal glands kick in to defend us. This disrupts the HPA axis. The adrenal glands signal the hypothalamus and pituitary to alter their hormone production. There is a supp. that supposedly corrects this axis. PhosphatidylSerine.
Now...online you can get the June 5, 2007 Time magazine article on How we get addicted". Read it and watch VERY closely for the word "serine"! AMAZING. It is on page 7 of the article. Is it raising dopamine levels?
Could THAT abx. work?!
That is just for starters.
Ancora Imparo!
butchieboo ...
All the glucagon and adrenaline in the world (which you likely ARE pumping out) aren't going to do anything because those can't cross INTO the cells...cAMP levels are too low and cAMP (which comes from ATP)helps the cells sorta know that glucagon and adrenaline are "there". Let's see...think of cAMP as a doorbell. Catching on?
[ 19. July 2007, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by just don (Member # 1129) on :
Marnie, I have said this before,,,and I say it again!!! I think "YOU" are going to crack the disease right open and find the cure LONG before all those so called experts get their grants all in a row!!!
CUDO's to you and all you do.
Now do I understand what it was as intelligent conversation?? Not by a darn site,,,but I sure enjoyed the journey. KEEP going,,,PLEASE,,, your only about a corner or two away from the solution of a lifetime!! AND then I vote for you for the BIG "Nobel" prize!!(to all humanity)
YOU are the best,,,,hope,,,we have,,,,today!!!!mostly --just don--
Posted by lymednva (Member # 9098) on :
It's not that I don't want to understand this, it's that I can't!
Long posts, broken up or not, just gloss over my eyes a few lines into them and I lose them completely, especially if it requires much thought to keep up with the topic.
I used to have a high IQ, had 3.8 GPA in college, in the top 1.5% of my high school class. But it doesn't work for me any more.
Maybe someday, is all I can hope for!
Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
Hi Marnie,
Just RSVPing. Thanks for all your research. I always appreciate your analysis, even when I do not have the background biochem knowledge to understand it!
OK, the lizard hunts (insects) at night. And it has more cones than rods.
What is the significance of that fact for borreliosis?
Since your turmeric post of July 10th, I have tried my own little experiment with turmeric extract VS forskolin.
Sorry to say, I do not feel well taking either of them! Could be a herx? Or I picked up a bug traveling last week? Who knows.
Everyone is different, and probably will not have the same experience that I did:
I took 1 turmeric extract capsule (New Chapters) in the morning with food and at dinner for eight days. I felt worse this week than in a long time -- as if I have COPD-heart failure. No energy, difficulty breathing.
I stopped taking the turmeric yesterday, and felt better today. Tried taking 25 mg forskolin extract with breakfast.
Forskolin has an opposite, different effect:
I had an instant energy boost from it -- for 1-2 hours. Like being shot out of a rocket. I am sure it was the forskolin since everything else was the same.
But after that first 1-2 hour drug like effect, the rest of the day has been crashing from the forskolin boost.
Seems that my cAMP does not like to be messed with. The side-effects of either turmeric or forskolin were tough for me. Perhaps I am just unusually sensitive to these supplements. I am going to leave it alone and take neither of these supplements for the time being.
However, I hope you continue to plug forward with your great research. I will be the first to dine on a Western Fence lizard if it turns out that cures lyme!
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
In the morning, when the sun comes up (if it is not cloudy out)...we convert melatonin BACK to serotonin.
When we live in areas that are cloudy all the time, we can develop SAD...seasonal affective disorder.
Too little serotonin. Melatonin isn't converting.
Melatonin is a powerful anti-oxidant.
Melatonin looks to work opposite (antagonists) that of dopamine at least in the eyes of the WFL.
Now...about the cones in that lizard's eyes...if all three types of cone cells are stimulated equally , the light is perceived as being achromatic or white.
White light is powerful.
White light may drive melatonin down thus may raise dopamine levels.
Sunshine does usually lift out spirits.
With melatonin down THAT anti-oxidant protection is no longer there.
With less of THAT anti-oxidant, Bb might be exposed to more destructive "free oxygen radicals".
Or...
If melatonin and dopamine are antagonists, it would follow...melatonin down, dopamine up.
Dopamine is a "happy go lucky" neurotransmitter as is serotonin which happens to need glucose.
When we feel that way (happy go lucky), we aren't feeling stressed, right?
Adrenaline? Does dopamine lower adrenaline - fear?
Now...get this! Apparently there is an ANTIBIOTIC that helps panic/fear attacks! (Time mag. article).
That antibiotic is D-cycloserine .
D as in delta?
Serine as in phosphadityl serine which supposedly rebalances the HPA axis?
IF I had lyme and IF I wanted to go the abx. route, I sure as heck would mention that abx. to my doctor.
A quick search:
D-cycloserine, an antibiotic, relieves chronic neuropathic pain
D-cycloserine is an antibiotic which is
used in the treatment of tuberculosis.
It is sold by Eli Lilly under the brand name Seromycin.
Apart from its antiboitic activity, the drug also has effects in the brain, and has been found to be effective in helping people to overcome phobias, and to help children with autism to improve their social
and communication skills.
A recent study in rats with neuropathic pain has shown that after taking D-cycloserine daily for two weeks, they were substantially less sensitive to touch in the painful areas.
The greater the dose, the greater the reduction in sensitivity. The drug did not appear to affect the normal pain sensations in areas of the body without neuropathic pain.
Although it's painkilling properties have so far only been tested in rats, three features of this drug are particularly encouraging:
The drug is already approved, and so can be prescribed by a doctor
The drug can be taken by mouth, and doesn't need to be injected
Papers about other uses of the drug say that it is generally well tolerated, without serious side-effects in most people.
SERINE (NON-ESSENTIAL AMINO ACID) Needed for the proper metabolism of fats and fatty acids, the growth of muscle, and the maintenance of a healthy immune system; is a component of the protective myelin sheaths that cover nerve fibers; is important in RNA & DNA function and cell formation; aids in the production of immunoglobulins and antibodies.
D-serine is an endogenous modulator of the glycine site of NMDA (glutamate - "go") receptors and fully occupies this site at some functional synapses.
Who wants to go first? D- cycloserine.
Posted by butchieboo (Member # 12063) on :
Sorry Marnie if I sounded a bit disgruntled...I am. I feel inadequate enough with this disease as it is by just not being able to do simple things, when at one time, complex things were my meat and potatos,
Unfortunately one of the hardest things for me to do is THINK ABSTRACTLY,,,which is a necessary attribute in order to follow your line of reasoning.
It pops up and down and sideways so many times that, my original thought, I may have ascertained in the first sentence, is woefully inundated and simply lost.
I rarely have this capacity any longer and trying to use this aspect of my brain may help
create new brain cells but it seems BB may be wiping them out just as fast as I make new ones.
So this exercise, is somewhat lost on me.
Had I the benefit of remedial chemistry or microbiology, I may have had half a chance at understanding your work. I also have no room in my vocabulary for "I can't".
However, trying to follow and make sense of what you project actually causes me more harm than good. I seem to be quite depleated after
having read your posts and all the mental where with all I have to conjur up from the depths of my injured, diseased mind.
So I must bow out from this class.
When you find the right doorbell that announces to the correct hormone/ BB killer chemical composition or what have you...to come on in...
Kindly spoon feed me the culmination of your work. Hopefully, it will be easy, something found in nature...like, oh, I don't know.
The natural born eliminator of BB, say Helicobactor Pyori for example...and I am not adverse to bar b queing a lizard or two either.
However, the Guinea hens, may be more palletable.
Carry on, all you scientific speaking wonders, God speed.
BB
Posted by spookydew (Member # 8432) on :
Insects are very high in many amino acids. This lizard likes an acidic meal.
If this lizard gobbles up a LOT of acids all night long, it could die of "acidosis" so something has to counter this.
That counter looks to be cAMP.
So why couldn't we follow acidic diet and supplement with some alkalinizing glucose?
Posted by trueblue (Member # 7348) on :
Couldn't we alkanize by drinking apple cider vinegar (or lemon juice)?
Am I misunderstanding that that would increase the gluco(whatever) levels? (Hey, I'm trying, really. )
ACV seems to balance quite a few things for me. I've been experimenting with it lately but it seems to help in ways I didn't expect.
`
I'd try the Seromycin... ABX that has a side effect of working on neuropathic pain? Really what would I have to lose?
Know anyone that would write for it? (Somewhere up there, or in the links, I think I saw it said it is effective in low doses.)
`
Thanks Marnie, I think I need a nap, now. Posted by northstar (Member # 7911) on :
So why couldn't we follow acidic diet and supplement with some alkalinizing glucose?
Sugar? Did someone mention sugar?
It's medicine?
What will they think of next?!
Northstar
Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
quote: So...I will TALK you thru this (are you non-medically inclined persons smiling? I hope so!).
Sorry, Marnie, that's when I tuned out. If you can give us a solution to this thesis, I wouldn't be so frustrated.
Everyone has been so nice to say they don't understand what we are now supposed to do with this breakthrough.
Although interesting about the fence lizard, I have had several "medically minded" people (and I am not so dumb), who have been in treatment for Lyme, try to decipher what the next step is in this information.
Do we eat more lemons? Do we take Xango? Ambrotose? Tang? Hershey's syrup? What do we do about the cones and rods in our eyes? Huh?
I've read it and reread it, and my brain blew up.
Posted by 5dana8 (Member # 7935) on :
Thanks marnie
I think I am beginning to understand in small incriminates:)
Hi True
What is ACV?
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
you guys are waaayyyy out of my league here........LOL
Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
I'm thinking that we could go into the Western Fence Lizzard farming business--selling the meat to Lymies--skin on, of course.
Posted by trueblue (Member # 7348) on :
quote:Originally posted by 5dana8: Thanks marnie
I think I am beginning to understand in small incriminates:)
Hi True
What is ACV?
Hi Dana I was abbreviating apple cider vinegar because I was too lazy to type it out again. Posted by Ruth Ruth (Member # 11059) on :
I'd like to add my thanks to you Marnie for typing your thoughts and latest research areas up for our personal cognitive pleasure (or torment, depending on how our brains are doing).
For anyone still following this thread ... after it "blew up your brain" (kelly ) ... I can only offer this advice: I don't try to find too much practical steps to follow when reading Marnie. And on my bad days I know better than to follow.
But, I did read about forskolin a while back and tried it. (Of course, I was using other stuff too). Anywho, the forskolin seemed to make a real and positive change in my energy levels and perhaps even the adrenal and/or immune function. I'm sorry it didn't do as well for Vermont_Lymie.
Posted by Vanilla (Member # 11155) on :
Marnie what do you think of water ionizers?
I really think drinking alkaline water is helping me on many levels. What I notice the most is I get sick much less when I am using one so I believe it might really be assisting my immune system.
Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
Yeah, I'm talkin' real MARS ATTACKS kinda blow. Posted by Vanilla (Member # 11155) on :
If anyone is interested I have a sale going on this weekend only on my website. I have organic Western Skink jerky half off and if you buy a case of skink juice you can have it for only $45 a bottle. It is listed right below the dayglo berka section. By the way berkas are the best solution to a bad herx day.
Oh and I almost forgot FREE shipping all weekend long.
You might be wondering where I found such a large supply of skink... I cut up my last romantic interest the French Chef with no integrity. He may be a Western Stinson skank (close cousin to the skink family - the white meat tastes the same) but once you marinate it in tamari and lemon long enough you will never know the difference. I would assume skank meat and skink meat would have the same properties?
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
quote:Apparently:
"The results provide in vivo evidence supporting the idea (derived on the basis of in vitro findings) that a mutually
antagonistic interaction
between melatonin and dopamine operates in retinas of living animals."
Antagonists ? ! When melatonin is up happy-go-lucky dopamine is down?
IF the cones in the retinas of the WFL are upregulating dopamine does this then force melatonin levels down?
Melatonin comes from serotonin which comes from tryptophan.
Bb needs tryptophan to survive.
It NEEDS melatonin to protect it from ROS which I believe normally could destroy it...superoxide, etc.
In other words...a LOT of free oxygen radicals (absence of melatonin) might be able to destroy Bb.
Okay, I think I am getting the rods/cones relationship with the neurotransmitters now... WFL has more dopamine and less melatonin, the 'latter' of which Bb needs to protect it from ROS, a super-oxide (not quite sure what ROS stands for)?
Anyway... does this antagonistic relationship exist in humans? The reason I ask is that my daughters dopamine levels were very high at the time things went haywire for her in 7th grade. So was PEA, which is associated with schizophrenia (!). We were able to get PEA down (based on more 'normalized' behavior), but dopamine remains high, I think (still a little over-reactive at times).
Maybe there is some other reason for this. Originally, I thought Bb CAUSED the dopamine imbalance. But there must be some other chain of events occurring, maybe starting with the malfunctioning adrenals and glucose (or more specifically, malfunctioning messenger cAMP) that caused dopamine to ultimately be high... or that the antagonistic relationship does not exist with humans, i.e., when dopamine is up melatonin is down...
And her immune system was in hyper mode!
And I am trying to remember what it means when some people take melatonin and get wakeful, not sleepy?
Anyway... thank you again, Marnie. The research from this thread is starting to make sense.
And when you find the speed of darkness, could you let us know? Might be useful .
Claire
[ 21. July 2007, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: clairenotes ]
Posted by clairenotes (Member # 10392) on :
quote:By the way berkas are the best solution to a bad herx day.
Thanks, Vanilla. I was looking for a novel solution!
Claire
Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marnie:
Now...get this! Apparently there is an ANTIBIOTIC that helps panic/fear attacks!
D-cycloserine, an antibiotic, relieves chronic neuropathic pain.
The vitamin B6 derivative pyridoxal phosphate is a cofactor in the synthesis of GABA, which is why seizures occur in Vitamin B6 deficiency.
If the blood is too acidic (pH too low), the body can break down glutamine into glutamate and ammonia to increase the pH of the blood.
GABA levels rise when the citric acid cycle activity is low (ie, when cell energy usage is low), and the resultant generalized GABA inhibitory effect on the brain neurons can be protective during hypoxia or ischemia.
GABA is an amino acid that is in itself a neurotransmitter that is a specific
inhibitor of dopamine and norepinephrine.
It metabolizes more easily if it is taken with inositol and niacinimide (B3).
L-Taurine counters the "up" effects of dopamine and norepinephrine by helping stabilize the excitability of the membranes in the nervous system.
It's both a neuroinhibitor and a neurotransmitter.
It suppresses the releases for *excitory* neurotransmitters like dopamine and norepinephrine.
It is a non-essential amino acid in that it is made in the body, but many bodies can't manufacture enough of the stuff to satisfy its own needs. Its basic function is to help get sodium, potassium, calcium and magnesium ions in and out of cells and thus stabilize electrically the cell membranes.
The powerful antioxidant glutathione is comprised of three amino acids: glutamate, cysteine, and glycine. Glutamine is described a "glutathione-sparing" agent, helping to maintain adequate levels of glutathione by providing adequate glutamate for its production. Glutathione deficiency tends to arise with glutamine decline (e.g., with muscle wasting ) and is compensated for by administering glutamine.
Complex...isn't this?! (Understatement, I know!) This pathogen is messing up so much!
Bb is depleting cysteine (in its zinc fingers) and apparently uses glycine too....leaving only glutamate. Glutathione, our major antioxidant suffers.
It is very hard to measure the neurotransmitter levels and some believe testing is inaccurate because they are always in such a state of flux.
[ 21. July 2007, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
kelmo - ditto.
marnie, obviously you've stumbled on some sort of breakthrough here. that's awesome. your translations are still way above my head. or, more accurately, like kelmo, my brain has now exploded and its contents are all over the kitchen floor. not a pretty sight.
a SIMPLE translation? minus scientific jargon? with concrete advice/solutions pretty please with your choice of confection on top?
Posted by Boomerang (Member # 7979) on :
I'm thinking that we could go into the Western Fence Lizzard farming business--selling the meat to Lymies--skin on, of course.
I'm in!!
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
I will provide information and leave it up to YOU to decide what to do about it.
Pay attention when I bold or *** information.
I am NOT going to tell you what to do or take.
I am NOT a doctor.
There ARE very smart people on this board, including lurkers.
Not everyone is effected mentally -strain of Bb, genetic, diet related???
Much of this research, I hope and pray, may reach those who DO understand and who will, in turn,
apply this knowledge
to help those who don't understand.
But I think we are MUCH CLOSER to figuring out what helps - why/how these things help.
Understanding this pathogen enables us to figure out a defense.
The key to that defense lies hidden in that ONE lizard.
Posted by sunnymalibu (Member # 9586) on :
for anyone interested in reading it. It is very technical and long. I tried to make it a tiny url but don't know if it worked.
[ 23. July 2007, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: sunnymalibu ]
Posted by Vanilla (Member # 11155) on :
I hope someone reads it and translates it. I am all tangled up in my berka and about to take a nap after an exhausting yoga class topped with 2 fish tacos with black beans and rice.
Wake me up when it has been translated and someone has translated Marnie's insights as well.
Thanks,
Melted Vanilla
Posted by BJG (Member # 4723) on :
FYI-thought this was interesting.
Cyclic AMP is perhaps the most important cell-regulating compound. Once formed it activates many other enzymes involved in diverse cellular functions. Under normal situations cAMP is formed when a stimulatory hormone (e.g., epinephrine) binds to a receptor site on the cell membrane and stimulates the activation of adenylate cyclase. This enzyme is incorporated into all cellular membranes and only the specificity of the receptor determines which hormone will activate it in a particular cell. In the case of forskolin, it can aide in a number of biological processes, explained in further detail below.
Forskolin appears to bypass this need for direct hormonal activation of adenylate cyclase via transmembrane activation. As a result of this activation of adenylate cyclase intracellular cAMP levels rise. The physiological and biochemical effects of a raised intracellular cAMP level include: inhibition of platelet activation and degranulation; inhibition of mast cell degranulation and histamine release; increased force of contraction of heart muscle; relaxation of the arteries and other smooth muscles; increased insulin secretion; increased thyroid function; and increased lipolysis (fat destruction). Recent studies have found forskolin to possess additional mechanisms of action independent of its ability to directly stimulate adenylate cyclase and cAMP dependent physiological responses. Specifically forskolin has been shown to inhibit a number of membrane transport proteins and channel proteins through a mechanism that does not involve the production of cAMP. The result is again a transmembrane signaling that results in activation of other cellular enzymes.
By raising cAMP, forskolin is responsible for:
Inhibition of mast cell degranulation and histamine release. Increased force of contraction of heart muscle. Relaxation of the arteries and other smooth muscle. Increased insulin secretion. Increased thyroid function. Increased lipolysis (breakdown of fat
Posted by sunnymalibu (Member # 9586) on :
Vanilla-you're post made me laugh out loud!
Posted by BJG (Member # 4723) on :
Marnie,
Do you know where I can buy the Forskolin in Tincture form?
thanks B
Posted by lymeHerx001 (Member # 6215) on :
Does Bb also go after mucosal epithelium in the sinus?
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Bb has zinc fingers..cysteine and histIdine bound to zinc.
Histidine -> histAmine.
Allergic reaction.
IgE.
Supposedly this means you are getting better i.e., when IgE goes up.
That is the "allergic reaction".
Which for some is obvious from the get-go...i.e., the rash.
Did some Bb's forget to put on a trenchcoat? (No salp 15 protein picked up from the tick's saliva) and thus was unable to "buy time" to infect?
Bb looks to infect the cells that line our blood vessels, the epithelial cells.
Where it "lands" ultimately is usually in the lymph nodes throughout the body.
As I understand it.
Scand J Immunol. 2007 Apr;65(4):376-82
IgE anti-Borrelia burgdorferi components (p18, p31, p34, p41, p45, p60) and increased blood CD8+CD60+ T cells in children with Lyme disease.
Immunoglobulin (Ig) E may provide immunity against Borrelia burgdorferi infection (Lyme disease) in children which lasts throughout adulthood.
These results demonstrate that specific IgE anti-B. burgdorferi Abs are generated and persist in children with Lyme disease and that CD8(+)CD60(+) T cells may play an important role in these responses.
PMID: 17386029
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
BJG...sent the link you requested.
You are aware of all the known interactions, warnings and other, right?
Warfarin, not when pregnant, maybe skin tanning...etc.
I "smile" about the melanin connection!
Old files...
Posted by Vanilla (Member # 11155) on :
I think one could drink lemon water until the cows come home and try to eat alkaline as well but what has really helped my health is drinking alkaline water all day long from my water ionizer. The body is made up of a heck of a lot of water.
Posted by Ruth Ruth (Member # 11059) on :
Vanilli: Seems like getting the skunk out of your life has been good for your health too! A sense of humor can't hurt... thanks for adding a dash of this and shake of that to our menu!
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
Do we know if the Lizzard maintains high levels of any specific antioxidants? Perhaps there is one that Bb can't use effectively to protect itself?
Bb seems to steal the things we need to make our own protection. Does this cause us to be hurt by our own defenses?
I know that artemisin works against Babesia by causing major production of ROS. That is why the antioxidants are so important when Txing with it.
I know there are things I have to read up on to really grasp this, but I keep coming back & trying. I think I'm understanding, while I'm reading, but it seems my retention is down & disorganized thinking is up.
The forskolin & the d-cycloserine definitely interest me. Thanks for that, Marnie.
I'd like to try to make an intelligent case for the d-cycloserine to my LLMD but I'm having difficulty locating studies to support an arguement to advocate for a switch.
I might be at a point in my Tx right now, where a change may be in order. I'd really like to give this a shot.
Any chance you could post links to the studies that support the d-cycloserine's benefit to neuropathy, aspergers, etc...
I just looked somewhere else & look what I found!!! Goodies in Science Direct !!(search for "d-cycloserine")
Maybe I can find something there. I may need to take a break, I just had massive wavy lights appear across my field of vision. I hope I remember to go back to this before my computer locks up or something.
Thanks again for posting this and for making such an effort to make it "Lyme-Brain" digestible.
If I'm correct in my understanding of what I have read, I need to make an effort to fully grasp the "Forskolin & curcumin combo" & "d-cycloserine". When I have a thorough enough understanding to speak intelligently, I will approach LLMD.
Thanks again, Ali
[ 29. July 2007, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: AliG ]
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
He might "justify" trying D-cycloserine for your complaint of nerve pain?
Since melatonin ALSO raises cAMP, I suspect the increased cAMP in that lizard -> less melatonin...protection.
Posted by northstar (Member # 7911) on :
Since melatonin ALSO raises cAMP, I suspect the increased cAMP in that lizard -> less melatonin...protection.
Marnie, I may be reading more into this than what is there.
I read that you suggest:
less melatonin is protection? but only if the cAMP is high?
Otherwise, all previous postings about benefits of melatonin contradict that less melatonin leads to protection?
Northstar
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Our body makes superoxide - a dangerous free radical - as well as H2O2 every split second.
These normally destroy pathogens...even some spore forms!
We are doing this constantly...fighting off pathogens. Know how many germs are on our kitchen counters?
Now, the cells can't STAY acidic or they will die, so in jumps (really fast) the antioxidant enzymes.
The most abundant is catalase. Glutathione peroxidase and superoxide dismutase are the others.
Bb could be destroyed by superoxide, H2O2, etc. if it were not for the anti-oxidant and anti-oxidant enzymes protecting.
This is why O3 saunas work.
O3 is trivalent. POWERFUL. The botulism anti-toxin is trivalent too.
Hyperbaric helps...a LOT...too expensive.
But in the works is a device coming out of Canada to attach to O2 masks to help treat CO (carbon monoxide) poisoning. Normally when people are poisoned by CO, they are given 100% O2 and/or put into a hyperbaric chamber.
This new device (cheap retrofit) apparently boost O2 delivery substantially.
Does Bb have carbon monoxide dehydrogenase? Is it using CO2->CO?
Unfortunately it appears so.
Some pathogens use CO as their sole carbon source.
Bb is not a strict anaerobe. It needs a LITTLE oxygen, not much.
The trick is...flipping the infected cellular switch back from glycolysis to oxidative phosphorylation.
Use sugar to make ATP = 2 ATP
Use sugar + O2 to make ATP = 36 ATP
When we make a LOT more ATP this will drive Mg back INTO the cells...
Clear...or clear as mud?
Posted by Vanilla (Member # 11155) on :
Marnie if one had lyme how much phosphatidyl serine would one want to take daily and how many times a day?
Thanks,
Vanilla
Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
Thanks Marnie. Make more ATP -- that is a pretty clear directive!
I will go back to taking more NADH, Co Q10, and Mg.
Anything else that encourages ATP?
Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
BJG,
WOW, what post. You sounded smart! For everyone else BJG lives near me and I know her true colors, so I have to tease her. Hiker53
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
Marnie,
You're saying we need to make more ATP. I just read something on Carnivora that states it interferes with the pathogens ATP and blocks it's protein synthesis. I bolded a couple of statements in it regarding ATP and I'm wondering if I can get your opinion. carnivora thread
Thanks, Ali
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marnie: Ali...the HPA axis is off.
My axis must be off alright! That might be a very good argument for me. Thanks. Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Venus Fly trap...
J Biol Chem. 1999 May 7;274(19):13362-9.
Mutagenesis and modeling of the GABAB receptor extracellular domain support a venus flytrap mechanism for ligand binding.
Binds to Gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) beta receptors?
Stick with me...
Melatonin looks to be upregulated to provide antioxidant support since glutathione is kapoot as Bb is depleting cysteine and glycine...leaving behind only glutamate.
"Perfusion with melatonin (for 19 consecutive hours) prevented the daytime reductions in both GLU (glutamate, stimulatory) and GABA (Gamma-aminobutyric acid, inhibitory).
Melatonin ongoing = glutamate and GABA stay too high?
The results also suggest that the day:night variations in GLU and GABA may relate to daily changes in endogenous melatonin production, while DA (dopamine) and its metabolites are minimally influenced by this secretory product."
I suspect dopamine goes up to try to pull the reigns in on melatonin since I read they work "opposite"...normally.
Is dopamine going up to lower melatonin levels, to then expose Bb to damaging free radicals which might destroy it?
If you want to "Rx" the GABAB receptors, get your mits on Acamprosate (used to treat alcoholics).
WAIT A SECOND!
This also looks to impact the NMDA receptors as well...these are the glutamate receptors!
"Thus, acamprosate may concomitantly enhance NMDA-EPSP/Cs while blocking presynaptic GABA(B) receptor-mediated inhibition of GABA release. "
Getting into the herbs:
To make a good herbal product, the manufacturing process must address the active constituents and these must be soluble using the method employed by the herbalist.
***In other words, although there are clinical studies showing that carnivora (Venus fly trap) is a potent anticancer herb, the studies were done using sterile extracts and intravenous injections.***
Nothing in the studies suggested that a capsule containing the same herb would be effective.
So, if we need to avail ourselves of the active ingredients, we need to know whether they are water or alcohol soluble and how best to administer the herbs.
That is issue number one.
Issue number two is how to make a safe product.
According to ancient herbal traditions, ***all herbs are synergistic.*** They work best in combination with other herbs. Tibetans go one step further. By clairvoyant observations dating back at least 800 years, they found that the active ingredient of all herbs is
[ 29. July 2007, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Up for Ali. See my post above.
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
Thanks Marnie,
This is really interesting! Great links too.
I had to go back & read this several times. I know I'm getting it while I read, but it's not sticking. I may have to read again on a better brain day.
I would have replied sooner, but I got bumped off the computer & couldn't get back on. Sorry.
So now I need to talk LLMD into: [LIST] [*]d-cycloserine (I was reading up on the different scientific studies earlier), [*]acamprosate (If I got the jist, this would cover the benefit of the fly-trap and better? What about the downregulation of the pathogen's ATP?) [*]forskolin [*]turmeric/curcumin
Or did I scramble this?
Here's a dilemma... I'll have to give the scientific justification on the acomprosate, I really don't think he'll buy it if I tell him I've had a drinking problem. I'm not a very good liar.
I am going back to re-read again, though I'm not very hopeful tonight.
[ 30. July 2007, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: AliG ]
Posted by aklnwlf (Member # 5960) on :
Wow Marnie,
I wish I could comprehend what you're posting here! It seems vitally important!
I was taking Tumeric for awhile but didn't stick with it. It didn't seem to do a whole lot for me.
One thing I wondered about is that I'm too alkaline and have blood sugars that bottom out from time too time.
I'm not quite understanding what we should be taking here. I've done the entire protocol for Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella which was also supposed to take care of the Mycloplasma.
Been in treatment since 2004 including 4 months of IV and 5 months straight of oral Levaquin.
Still not up to snuff.
Also have one of the Herpes virus and Epstein Barr virus.
Break out every month on Tindamax and was told recently I might also have Morgellons.
What's a person to do.
I have started walking about 4 days a week not long after arising to set my Circadian Rythym and reap all the other benefits of early morning exersize.
Drink plenty of water too and do deep breathing techniques while walking to increase my blood oxygen level.
Watch my diet too. Am a vegetarian but eat fish, eggs and some cheese.
Take Envira liquid vitamins and a couple of other things too.
Have low hormones, cortisol and HGH and am using plant derived creams and exersize to increase those levels, (hopefully).
Anymore advice Marnie would be so much appreciated.
Also how to tone down the central nervous system? Am drinking a Tanquerey and Tonic with Lemon and take muscle relaxers and Ambien CR and am still up at 3:48 am.
What would you suggest?? Posted by valbeth (Member # 12715) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marnie:
Anyway...when we "fight" a disease, our adrenal glands kick in to defend us. This disrupts the HPA axis. The adrenal glands signal the hypothalamus and pituitary to alter their hormone production. There is a supp. that supposedly corrects this axis. PhosphatidylSerine.
Marnie, I am new to this list, but unfortunately not at all new to Lyme and its coinfections. I am still wading through this info and trying to digest it, but I was struck by point about PhosphatidylSerine. It is one of the "core supplements" used in Amy Lasko's protocol. Here is a cut and paste from an article written by Richard Van Konynenburg who is a researcher who has been working on a simplified version of Lasko's protocol for CFS/ME: "1/4 tablet (200 micrograms) Folapro (Folapro is 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, an active form of folate, which is sold by Metagenics with a license from Merck, which holds the patent on synthesis).
1/4 tablet Intrinsic B12/folate (This includes 200 micrograms of folate as a combination of folic acid, 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, and 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate, aka folinic acid or leucovorin (another active form of folate), 125 micrograms of vitamin B12 as cyanocobalamin, 22.5 milligrams of calcium, 17.25 milligrams of phosphorus, and 5 milligrams of intrinsic factor)
(up to) 2 tablets (It's best to start with 1/4 tablet and work up as tolerated) Complete vitamin and ultra-antioxidant from Holistic Health Consultants (This is a multivitamin, multimineral supplement with some additional ingredients. It does not contain iron or copper, and it has a high ratio of magnesium to calcium. It contains antioxidants, some trimethylglycine, some nucleotides, and several supplements to support the sulfur metabolism.)
1 softgel capsule Phosphatidyl Serine Complex (This includes the phospholipids and some fatty acids)
1 sublingual lozenge Perque B12 (2,000 micrograms hydroxocobalamin with some mannitol, sucanat, magnesium and cherry extract) [ Optional:] 1 capsule SAMe (200 mg S-adenosylmethionine)
1/3 dropper, 2X/day Methylation Support Nutriswitch Formula (This is an RNA mixture designed to help the methylation cycle. It is not essential, but is reported to be helpful.)
January 25, 2007
Suggestions for Treatment of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) based on the Glutathione Depletion--Methylation Cycle Block Hypothesis for the Pathogenesis of CFS
Richard A. Van Konynenburg, Ph.D.
(Independent Researcher and Consultant"
The Phosphatidyl Serine is marketd under the name "Seriphos". THIS IS NOT A PROTOCOL YOU SHOULD TRY ON YOUR OWN as there have been some severe reactions. This protocol is directed towards breaking a block in the methylation cycle of NO synthesis. In my (very limited!) understanding I believe this is mostly closely linked to the function of macrophages in the immune system, and I was wondering if you could direct me to any information on their (dis)function in lyme patients. I belive Rivka here is considering this protocol, but I wondered what you thought of it, how much you knew about it because in some ways it seems to be in congruence with your own thoughts.
Posted by SuZ-Q (Member # 5903) on :
Marnie,
Do you know if the Seromycin is considered to have any effect on Bb? We are going to LLMD in about a week and will ask her about it.
Dd has been on IV abx for 19 months with limited success. She has severe anxiety attacks and also has had past tb exposure. Seems like a dream come true to us if it is an option for fighting Bb. Any additional info you could share would be most appreciated!
Thanks, Suzy
Posted by motownlyme (Member # 11485) on :
Marnie, My LLMD did a vitamin/amino acid study and I was extremely deficient in Vitamin D and Serine. Do these low levels fit in with your theory?
He wants me to take 5000 mg a day of Vit D but didn't say anything about how to address the Serine issue.
I too am really trying to understand, it's just a little above my lyme brain right now.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
See my post today (Pellegra) and watch closely as to WHY serine might be low.
Posted by on :
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This is awesome!!!! How exciting!!!!! This make sense! WE are moving down the right path here!![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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one {Or Both} are we to take?![[dizzy]](graemlins/dizzy.gif)
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I hope I remember to go back to this before my computer locks up or something.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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