All Lyme serology results must be interpreted in conjunction with the clinical presentationof the patient since antibodies to a variety of microorganisms are know to cross react
IgG - all bands tested were Absent
p18 p23 p28 p30 p39 p41 p45 p58 p56 p93
then paragraph below says:
Interprative criteria for LYME IgG: LYME IgG is condidered as POSITIVE by CDC/ASTPHLD if any FIVE of the following bands are Present: 18 23 39 41 45 58 66 or 93 kd Collected 8/30/07 Lyme Western Blot Lyme WB IgM B. Bergdorferi IgM Abs +Positive+
p23 Present p39 Present p41 Present
Initial criteria for Lyme IgM: Lyme IgM is considered POSITIVE if any TWO of the folowing Bands are present: 23 39 41kd Referred to Specialty Laboratories, Valentia CA
No Incomplete work for Patient The top of the test gives reference ranges of negative, equivical, and positive but the do not give the numbers of the lab results anywhere in the results just and absent, or present (positive)
Thanks for any help in reading this - I did talk with pediatrician yesterday and she said that she does not feel comfortable treating my daughter because this is way out of her league.
I thanked her for being honest and she is sending us to an ID doctor at the other hospital in the city that studied in PA - hoping to find out what he says next week.
Keep your fingers crossed that he follows ILADS!
must run but will check in this afternoon.
Thanks much and I have grown to love this site for all the information it has given and the special things you all say and do for this newbie.
Posted by NP40 (Member # 6711) on :
I doubt this is a speciality lab so the testing may be very inaccurate. It does mention the prescence of band 39 which is the most definitive for lyme. It'd be a miracle if an ID doc would ever interpret lyme from these readings.
They barely diagnose lyme even with 5 bands being positive. I see your in South Dakota and may very well have to go to Missouri to find adequate help or MN. or WI.
Support Groups could steer you in the right direction and you'll find that button on the left of the page. What are the symptoms being experienced that lead you to believe it may be lyme ?
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Lyme Western Blot Lyme WB IgM B. Bergdorferi IgM Abs +Positive+
p23 Present p39 Present p41 Present
Initial criteria for Lyme IgM: Lyme IgM is considered POSITIVE if any TWO of the folowing Bands are present: 23 39 41kd
================ This is a positive test....PERIOD! Band 39 is extremely lyme-specific ... as is band 23. NO question.
I would NOT waste time with an ID duck, but you can if you want to. Don't just "hope" he follows ILADS, call and ASK if he does!!!
If he doesn't, it is doubtful he will treat past 4 wks.
The dr in Missouri is awesome and does treat children.
"Band 39: Unknown what this antigen is, but based on research at the National Institute of Health (NIH), other Borrelia (such as Borrelia recurrentis that causes relapsing fever), do not even have the genetics to code for the 39 kDa antigen, much less produce it. It is the most specific antibody for borreliosis of all." Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Hey Pam...
Sorry to hear you are having trouble getting help for your little one.
From what I see on the test... as does tutu...
The result is a positive test for exposure to Lyme disease.
Since it is an IgM.. that often indicates a more recent infection.. and to me that is a good sign as you'd rather deal with it sooner than later. (Not always is the IgM indicitive of just a CURRENT infection.. but most of the time that is the case... rule of thumb.)
As for the IDiot duck you are being sent to...
If this were MY little one.. I would call the original doctor back and tell them the appropriate treatment is blah blah blah.... and determine that by reading Dr. Burrascano's guidelines... and have it ready to show her.
Ask that your daughter be started on treatment immediately... as that is VERY important. Then.. follow up with the ID duck if you need more meds.. AFTER you make an appointment with a LLMD (there may be a wait to get seen).
WARNING- Do NOT let the ID duck take any more blood tests for anything. You have a positive test.. and that's that. Your goal is to get treatment.. not to go "fishing" at your daughters expense.
If they do "their own test".. or try to "confimr it".. it may be negative.. and that would indicate to them (idiots) that no treatment is necessary and you are stuck.
You are really in bad shape if they get a negative test if you have insurance.. because if the idiot duck puts it in the chart that there is no Lyme or she has been treated adequately... no one else.. other than a LLMD .. will help her if she needs it.
So a negative is not just a negative. It can be MUCH worse.
Hope that helps. This is MY opinion and I am NOT a doctor.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Tincup....my dearest friend!.. The IgM is NOT indicative of an early infection in Lyme disease, according to Dr C of MO.
Quote:
"With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.
Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.
But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies.
Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result."
Posted by Geneal (Member # 10375) on :
Please take your child to a Lyme Literate Medical Doctor.
Band 23 and 39 are basically Lyme specific as others have said. There is no other way
For these bands to show up. No other infection.
Both of my children had Lyme specific bands without meeting CDC reporting criteria.
They are both receiving treatment.
Both of my children were symptomatic.
Hang in there.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Oh tutu.. you silly girl.
Pull your pants up and we will chat for a spell.
You said.. "Tincup....my dearest friend!.. The IgM is NOT indicative of an early infection in Lyme disease, according to Dr C of MO."
TuTu.. I'm sorry to have to tell you this.. but he is just plain old, every day, ordinary ... wrong.
JUST KIDDING!!!
Actually... he is right.. but so am I.
But I didn't go into depth in the post as I thought it would be too confusing... and it was supper time and I don't get paid enough to miss too many suppers.
And he didn't go into more depth at the time for whatever reason. Possibly because what he explained was accurate and adequate for the "normal person".. which of course leaves you riding high and dry.. doesn't it?
HA!
Now that you've complicated the picture.. too much puppy chow today dear... maybe I can explain why we all are correct here? Anyhow..
Yes.. Dr. C is correct. In his first paragraph you will see that I am too.. and we are both saying about the same thing.
He said.. "With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies."
What he didn't say.. which is cool.. just wanting to be sure we are all on the same page....
In Lyme.. your IgM's are the first to show positive... true. They can remain positive for up to a year or more before the IgG becomes positive.. I've seen different times listed for this situation.. so do note that.
Now.. if a person has been sick for a long while.. and their first test is a positive IgG... and negative IgM... we can assume they infection has been there a while.
BUT.. as he stated... each time a replication occurs... or you are treated and relapse.. and /or other factors are present...
Sometimes you will get a peaking IgM.. with or without an IgG. If/when that happens... it can indicate you've had Lyme a good while and you are still actively infected.
Also.. an IgM may show up.. as he has noted.. in many people without the IgG.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..
I think the patients personal history has to be in place before there is a more hard and fast rule applied.. IF one can be applied at all.
Plus.. repeated Western Blots... adjusted to fit treatment phases and replication cycles... must be considered in the big picture and should bring forth a better insite into what is going on.
Dr. C said.. "In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years."
Absolutely right. And the ducks often use that tidbit to "dismiss" our chronic infections. Just because they are stupid and because they can. But if they knew what they were doing... they would repeat the WB and see that an IgM may show positive too on another date.
That peaking IgM wouldn't happen if there were NO infection present. I'm sure you've noticed duck literature that states NOT to test repeatedly. They claim it can show false positives. Hogwash.
A positive IgM after their "adequate (so-called) treatment will prove them wrong and they know it.
```````````````````````````````````````````````
Dr. C said... "Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots."
That is true. You would think that if Lyme were a "normal" bacterial infection.
`````````````````````````````````````````````
Dr. C said... " But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG."
BINGO! That proves we are still actively infected. EXACTLY what the ducks don't want to admit.
````````````````````````````````````````````
Dr. C said.. "Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies."
Yes... and that is a good indicator you are still "actively" infected.
```````````````````````````````````````````````
Dr. C said.. "Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result."
RIGHT!!!
Sooooooooo.. it looks like all of us are correct.
BUT.. if it is still confusing and you or someone else feels I am wrong.. please let me know. This is MY interpretation of the Western Blots and I COULD be wrong.
I'd love to hear feed back and I love to be put to the test.. so thanks.
Now go pull up yer britches and leave me alone.
It is ice cream night and I don't have any!!!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by sometimesdilly (Member # 9982) on :
sorry to crash the party, especially since i come equipped with plenty of ice cream but precious few brain cells.
is this relevant? my 5 year old son has congenital Lyme. for sure.
By any definition, his Igenex was positive for IGM bands. the only IGG band he had was 41, not necessarily relevant for Lyme,and overall, a negative result.
he for sure did NOT have a recent exposure.
what the great and dear Dr. J told us was some kids NEVER have ANY positive IGG bnads- they simply do not produce any of those antibodies, ever.
sorry again for interrupting, especially if i missed the point entirely.
dilly
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Well, TC...I agree with everything you said in the second post, but not the first.....So I guess what you're saying in the first one is confusing to me.
As dilly says....maybe it doesn't make any difference. Just TREAT the Lyme!
***I pulled my drawers up, but they keep falling down without good reason!*** Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
When I read TC's first post, I thought the same thing as tutu so she saved me the trouble of having to go through an explanation.
TC - your second post looks right to me.
My first IgM IgeneX WB had a number of IND's. IgG was one band short of CDC positive. After a month of treatment, IgM turned IgeneX positive. I've been infected for decades.
Terry
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
OK nit not...
What part of this don't you like? I'll change it but don't see what the big flap is about it?
ho ho ho...
I said.. and regret doing it now cause tutu is making me NUTS.. as usual. HA!
"Since it is an IgM.. that often indicates a more recent infection.. and to me that is a good sign as you'd rather deal with it sooner than later. (Not always is the IgM indicitive of just a CURRENT infection.. but most of the time that is the case... rule of thumb.)"
Now what is wrong there? Keep in mind Einstein wasn't asking for a detailed answer.. it was Pam who wanted our impressions.
(NO OFFENSE PAM!!- And please don't come back on here and tell me your last name happens to be Einstein!!! I'm trying to make a point.. ok? hehehe)
``````````````````````````````````````````````
And I am researching for an insurance deal gone wrong... and just came across this from Donta.. which happened to be interesting. Dilly might want to read it too?
Especially the 41 band info?
```````````````````````````````````````````````
Here is the link. Look for the ELISA and WB info... and the other good info. Nice report.
Pam.. I really didn't mean to insult you by saying you weren't Einstein. My guess is you are actually MUCH smarter than he ever was.. and much prettier too!
Is that enough sucking up for you to forgive me for that comment? I hope so!!!
And tutu...
Check your mail box Monday. You MAY find a new pair of suspenders to help keep your pants up.
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Oh GEEZE!!!
Terry!!!
You were posting when I was and I didn't see your answer before I hit send.
Just so you know.. I wasn't calling YOU a nit not!!!!
That was suppose to be addressing tutu.
I think I am digging myself in deep here. Anyone have a life jacket to throw at me?
HELP!
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
TC - I'm not sure what a nit not is. Is it a Nit wit NOT! ??
We ARE your lifejacket. Posted by Pam S (Member # 13144) on :
boy - tin cup, don't worry, i dont take things too personaly these days - life is too short(and I kinda had to laugh while I was reading this..cuz if I dont find humor in something I think I just might fo crazy!)
I really do wish that I could have scanned the test results by pc wouldnt let me for some reason -
As I have explained before - My daughter has experienced weird symptoms since June 04.
Numbness/tingling sensation in her legs - more like pins and needles. That is where it started.
After we had her tested for everything in the book (MS, Diabetes, Guillain-Barre, FM, Rhenounds (sp) disease, west nile, drug use, pregnancy, metal tox.) and all came back negative in 04. but still had symptoms (which she hid from me because she was afraid to have another spinal tap - Bad headache after that on!)
Now - tests positive for lyme 3+ years later.
The pediatritian put her on 3 weeks doxy - she took them for a few days and started throwing up and now wont take them until i asked her if she wants to be in a wheel chair or bed ridden from this thing. NO was her answer and now we are back to throwing up.
we seen an id duck last week who told us that she did NOT have lyme and that since her IgG and her IgM were neg. that the tests never should have went any farther. @$$ hole - made her feel like it was all in her head and made her think that he was thinking that she was trying to get attention from me and her dad and her step dad - BS and I walked out - After I told him what I thought.
So the other day when Peds called and said that this was out of her league and she wanted us to see another id doc from the other hosp in town and that she chose him because he trained in Pittsburg - she thought that he might have a bettergrip then any other doc in town -
They called and left me a message friday at 5 and said that they were returning my phone call and they CAN help me -
I plan on asking to talk with him personally to ask what guidlines he follows before I even make the appointment.
OH, thx for the info - I never thought about a second blood test and insurance - (which btw she is covered under our great state of South Dakota since Dear Old Dad wont take care of his own like he was suppose to.) So I dont know if this is going to pose more problems or help.
All I know is that I want her to get better and I know she wants to get better and I will do my darndest to get her the help that she needs.
Sorry for such a long post - but I thought that I had better explain myself since I have nothing but time on these sleepless nights.
Thank you all again for all of your help, support and advise - it is greatly appreciated and I hope that someday I can help one of you or someone that is in as much need as I am today.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Hey Terry....Thanks for taking the heat off of me!! Whew!! That TC can really call names, can't she? Of course, my fav name for her is Conehead...
TC, I'm ready for those suspenders! I'll give 'em to my hubby!!
TC....This part:
""Since it is an IgM.. that often indicates a more recent infection."
But hey, we don't want to give Pam a headache with all of this "arguing"... She might get the idea that we're ALL a bunch of nit nots!!
![[group hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[lol]](graemlins/lol.gif)