Symptoms of Overt B12 Deficiency Ways to Get B12 Deficiency
The two main ways people get vitamin B12 deficiency are inadequate dietary intake and inadequate absorption from loss of intrinsic factor or lack of stomach acid. Other, much less common ways are listed in Appendix: Ways to Get B12 Deficiency.
Elevated Homocysteine: No Symptoms
Please note that the symptoms listed below are found in overt vitamin B12 deficiency. You can be B12 deficient, increasing your risk of disease because of elevated homocysteine without suffering any noticeable symptoms.
Early, Noticeable Symptoms of Overt B12 Deficiency:1
unusual fatigue faulty digestion no appetite nausea loss of menstruation Other symptoms of Overt B12 Deficiency:
numbness and tingling of the hands and feet1 nervousness1 diarrhea2 mild depression1 striking behavioral changes1 paranoia1 hyperactive reflexes1 fever3 frequent upper respiratory infections4 impotence5 impaired memory5 infertility6 sore tongue2 enlargement of the mucous membranes of the mouth, vagina, and stomach117 macrocytic anemia low platelet count3,7 and increased bleeding3 neutropenia3 Neurological Symptoms
Neurological symptoms, often referred to as subacute combined degeneration (SCD), are the biggest concern regarding B12 deficiency. The damage can be irreversible if not caught early enough. SCD affects peripheral nerves and the spinal cord, and is normally different in children than adults.8 .
Theories of How B12 Deficiency Causes Nerve Damage
There are 3 main theories as to how B12 deficiency causes nerve damage:
1. B12 deficiency produces a lack of methionine for conversion into S-adenosylmethionine (SAM).9 SAM is required for the production of phosphatidylcholine10 which is part of the myelin (the fatty material that insulates many nerves).10 (See Figure: Methionine-Homocysteine-Folate-B12 Cycle.)
2. The inability to convert methylmalonyl-CoA (a 3-carbon molecule) to succinyl-CoA (a 4-carbon molecule) results in an accumulation of propionyl-CoA (a 3-carbon molecule). Fatty acids are normally made by adding 2 carbons at a time to an even numbered carbon molecule. In an overabundance of 3 carbon molecules, large amounts of unusual 15-carbon and 17-carbon fatty acids may be produced and incorporated into nerve sheets, causing altered nerve function.11
3. Nerves are damaged by different hormone-like molecules (cytokines, tumor necrosis factor, and epidermal growth factor) which become unbalanced in the nerve tissue in B12 deficiency.8
When is it Time to Call a doctor?
There are some serious diseases that have similarities to B12 deficiency, including Guillian-Barre syndrome, Lyme neuropathy, heavy metal intoxication, and lupus myelopathy.12 Anyone who develops symptoms of nerve damage should see a doctor immediately for treatment.
Notes for Symptoms of B12 Deficiency 1. Crane MG, Sample C, Pathcett S, Register UD. "Vitamin B12 studies in total vegetarians (vegans). Journal of Nutritional Medicine 1994;4:419-430. 2. Lindenbaum J, Healton EB, Savage DG, Brust JC, Garrett TJ, Podell ER, Marcell PD, Stabler SP, Allen RH. Neuropsychiatric disorders caused by cobalamin deficiency in the absence of anemia or macrocytosis. N Engl J Med. 1988 Jun 30;318(26):1720-8. 3. Sarode R, Garewal G, Marwaha N, Marwaha RK, Varma S, Ghosh K, Mohanty D, Das KC. Pancytopenia in nutritional megaloblastic anaemia. A study from north-west India. Trop Geogr Med. 1989 Oct;41(4):331-6. 4. Crane MG, Register UD, Lukens RH, Gregory R. Cobalamin (CBL) studies on two total vegetarian (vegan) families. Vegetarian Nutrition. 1998; 2(3):87-92. 5. Ho C, Kauwell GP, Bailey LB. Practitioners' guide to meeting the vitamin B-12 recommended dietary allowance for people aged 51 years and older. J Am Diet Assoc .1999 Jun;99(6):725-7. 6. Kuhne T, Bubl R, Baumgartner R. Maternal vegan diet causing a serious infantile neurological disorder due to vitamin B12 deficiency. Eur J Pediatr. 1991 Jan;150(3):205-8. 7. Refsum H, Yajnik CS, Gadkari M, Schneede J, Vollset SE, Orning L, Guttormsen AB, Joglekar A, Sayyad MG, Ulvik A, Ueland PM. Hyperhomocysteinemia and elevated methylmalonic acid indicate a high prevalence of cobalamin deficiency in Asian Indians. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Aug;74(2):233-41. 8. Scalabrino G. Subacute combined degeneration one century later. The neurotrophic action of cobalamin (vitamin B12) revisited. J Neuropathol Exp Neurol. 2001 Feb;60(2):109-20. 9. Groff J, Gropper S. Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism, 3rd ed. Wadsworth: 2000. 10. Grattan-Smith PJ, Wilcken B, Procopis PG, Wise GA. The neurological syndrome of infantile cobalamin deficiency: developmental regression and involuntary movements. Mov Disord. 1997 Jan;12(1):39-46. 11. von Schenck U, Bender-Gotze C, Koletzko B. Persistence of neurological damage induced by dietary vitamin B-12 deficiency in infancy. Arch Dis Child. 1997 Aug;77(2):137-9. 12. Licht DJ, Berry GT, Brooks DG, Younkin DP. Reversible subacute combined degeneration of the spinal cord in a 14-year-old due to a strict vegan diet. Clin Pediatr. (Phila). 2001 Jul;40(7):413-5. From
"There are some serious diseases that have similarities to B12 deficiency, including Guillian-Barre syndrome, Lyme neuropathy, heavy metal intoxication, and lupus myelopathy.12 Anyone who develops symptoms of nerve damage should see a doctor immediately for treatment."
Wow! They actually listed Lyme as a serious disease!! Is this article from Germany by any chance? [just looking at the names in the references]
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
DRUG-SUPPLEMENT INTERACTIONS IN LYME DISEASE
Leo Galland M.D.
Lyme Times, published by the California Lyme Disease Association (CALDA)
Interactions between prescription or over the counter drugs and nutritional supplements are common and often not well known. In creating the Drug-Nutrient Workshop (www.NutritionWorkshop.com), a professional database of interactions between drugs and dietary supplements, nutrients, and food or food components, I found that over 400 drugs commonly used in the U.S. deplete specific nutrients and almost 500 drugs have their efficacy or side effects influenced by various foods. I also identified about a thousand adverse interactions between drugs and dietary supplements and several hundred beneficial interactions, in which specific dietary supplements may enhance the efficacy or decrease the side effects of specific drugs.
People with Lyme and related diseases are usually administered prolonged therapy with antibiotics, often combined with Prilosec or other proton pump inhibitors (drugs that greatly reduce stomach acid), sometimes in conjunction with Plaquenyl (an immune modulator) or anti-parasitic drugs for treatment of babesiosis. Some potential interactions (negative and positive) between these drugs and dietary supplements are described below. Information on drug/food interactions is usually available from the pharmacist and included in the patient-package insert. This should be checked for each individual drug being taken, because the dosage form (sustained-release vs. regular, for example) may influence the effect of food on drug absorption. Patients with chronic tick-borne infections may also be taking antidepressants and pain relievers, each of which may have its own interactions with nutritional supplements and nutritional status.
Drugs may interact with food or supplements through the following mechanisms:
(1) The food or supplements may interfere with drug absorption. This is especially important for tetracycline or quinolone antibiotics. {Although quinolones like Levaquin are not used for Lyme disease, they are the primary drugs for treatment of bartonellosis, a common co-infection). Both groups of antibiotics form insoluble complexes with minerals, especially calcium, magnesium or iron. This process, called chelation, inhibits absorption of both the antibiotic and the mineral. Not only are most tetracyclines (with the sole exception of doxycycline) and all quinolones better absorbed away from food (especially mineral-rich foods like meat and dairy products), they must be taken several hours apart from any nutritional supplements containing minerals. Two hours of separation may not be enough. Several herbs, including fennel, dandelion, and Sanguisorba, have a high enough mineral content that their consumption has been shown to interfere with quinolone absorption.
Penicillins may have their oral absorption impaired by fiber or by food, although this is more likely for penicillin V and ampicillin that for amoxacillin. Food causes the drug to be retained in the stomach, where the presence of acid causes the drug to decompose. Psyllium has been shown to bind oral penicillin, decreasing its absorption.
(2) The drug may increase the requirement for certain nutrients, because it causes depletion of the nutrient from the body. The normal gastrointestinal bacterial flora synthesize B vitamins, biotin and vitamin K, which are absorbed and utilized by humans. Depletion of these bacteria by prolonged antibiotic therapy may produce vitamin deficits. Bleeding caused by vitamin K deficiency has occurred as a result of intravenous therapy with cephalosporin antibiotics[1], a group that includes Rocephin and Claforan. High dose penicillin therapy causes increased excretion of potassium by the kidneys[2]. When combined with antibiotic-induced diarrhea or poor appetite, this effect may cause potassium deficiency, with fatigue and muscle weakness as primary symptoms. Proton pump inhibitors like Prilosec, used to enhance antibiotic absorption and cellular penetration, decrease formation of stomach acid, permitting overgrowth of bacteria and/or yeast in the stomach and upper gastrointestinal tract. Microbial overgrowth may be associated with gastrointestinal symptoms like diarrhea and bloating[3] and may cause malabsorption of nutrients. Prolonged use of PPIs has been associated with decreased absorption of vitamin B12, zinc, and carotene and may create a need for supplementation[4].
(3) Drugs, supplements and food may interact by inhibition or stimulation of enzymes involved in drug transport or metabolism.
The cytochrome P450 (CYP) system is extensively involved in drug metabolism and may be strongly inhibited or stimulated by drugs, foods or dietary supplements. CYP enzymes are most active in the liver, intestines, lungs and kidneys. Humans have over 20 different CYP enzymes, all of which contain iron and which all use oxygen to change the structure and function of the drugs they metabolize. The most important CYP's for drug metabolism are designated CYP1A2, CYP2C9, CYP2C19, CYP2D6, CYP2E1 and CYP3A4. This classification system is not based upon biological function but upon similarity of amino acid sequences in the structure of the enzyme. CYP oxidation of drugs may produce metabolites that are less active or more active than the parent compound. The exact effect of inhibiting or stimulating any CYP enzyme will therefore depend upon the specific clinical circumstances and cannot necessarily be predicted from experiments done in a test tube.
Another important aspect of drug metabolism is transport into and out of cells. Some drugs are ejected from cells by a transport system referred to as P-glycoprotein (P-gp). In the intestine, P-gp limits the absorption of a variety of unrelated drugs, many of which are also metabolized by the intestinal form of CYP3A4. Inhibition of P-gp and/or CYP3A4 by grapefruit juice or other natural substances can increase absorption of drugs that are P-gp or CYP3A4 substrates, raising their concentration in blood. This effect is only important for drugs that are slowly absorbed in the intestine to begin with. Drugs that pass through the intestinal lining rapidly are absorbed too quickly for inhibition of CYP or P-gp enzymes in the intestine to affect drugs levels. St. John's wort is one of the few products that stimulate intestinal P-gp and CYP3A4. Taking St. John's wort can decrease the plasma concentration of those same drugs and underlies many of the adverse drug interactions reported for this herb.
Some important interaction of drugs used in treating tick-borne diseases and the CYP system are listed below:
CYP2C9 is increased by rifampin (an antibiotic sometimes used to treat Bartonella) and inhibited by fluconazole (Diflucan, an anti-fungal).
CYP2C19 is increased by rifampin and artemisin (a derivative of the herb Artemisia annua, a natural anti-malarial herb that may be used in the treatment of Babesiosis). CYP2C19 is decreased by Prilosec and ketoconazole (Nizoral, an anti-fungal).
CYP3A4 is increased by St. John's wort and rifampin and inhibited by grapefruit juice, Seville orange juice, the anti-fungal drugs ketoconazole (Nizoral) and itraconazole (Sporanox), and the macrolide antibiotics azithromycin (Zithromax), clarithromycin (Biaxin) and telithromycin (Ketek). The effect of grapefruit juice occurs only in the intestines, not in the liver, so it can--at high levels of consumption--increase absorption of some drugs without affecting their internal metabolism. Artemisinin is metabolized by intestinal CYP3A4, and its absorption appears to be enhanced by grapefruit juice[5]. The herb Echinacea, used for immune stimulation, inhibits intestinal CYP3A4 but stimulates the liver's CYP3A4, so it may increase or decrease the levels of a co-administered drug, depending upon the drug's rate of absorption and the extent to which it is metabolized by CYP3A4.
Milk thistle, an herb used to support liver function, contains a group of bioflavonoids called silymarin. Silymarin may inhibit intestinal P-gp and liver CYP3A4. Surprisingly, concomitant administration of milk thistle significantly decreased the absorption of metronidazole (a drug used to treat the spore form of Borrelia).[6] This interaction could not have been predicted from knowledge of the herb's effects on drug metabolizing enzymes. Moreover, vitamin C (500 mg/day) and vitamin E (400 units/day) decreased the effectiveness of metronidazole in treating H. pylori infection of the stomach.[7] The mechanism of this interaction is unknown but suggests that anti-oxidants should not be used with metronidazole therapy.
Quercetin, a bioflavonoid used as an anti-oxidant and for relief of allergic symptoms, competes with quinolone antibiotics for binding sites on bacteria. No interaction between quercetin and antibiotics has yet been demonstrated outside a test tube, but it would be prudent for people taking quinolone antibiotics to refrain from the use of quercetin and perhaps other bioflavonoids.
Beneficial effects of dietary supplements for people taking antibiotics have been described. The most consistent benefits have been demonstrated for probiotics (living organisms) that can counter the gastrointestinal side effects of antibiotics. The best studied are Saccharomyces boulardii (a yeast, dubbed "yeast against yeast" in France)[8], Lactobacillus rhamnosis GG[9], Lactobacillus plantarum and Lactobacillus sporogenes[10].
Proteases are enzymes that digest protein. When taken by mouth on an empty stomach some of the preparation is absorbed intact and may be active in the body. Oral proteases have been shown to relieve pain and inflammation in patients with arthritis[11], may break down circulating complexes of antigen and antibody (these have been described in so-called "post-Lyme syndrome") and may breakdown blood clots that form as a result of inflammation. Although research on proteases as adjuncts to antibiotic therapy is minimal, a study done in animals found that bromelain (a protease-containing extract of pineapple stem), increased penetration of tetracyclines into the tissues[12].
[1] Alitalo et al. Hypoprothrombinaemia and bleeding during administration of cefamandole and cefoperazone. Ann Clin res 1985; 17: 116-9. Shimada et al. Bleeding secondary to vitamin K deficiency in patients receiving parenteral cephem antibiotics. J Antimicob Chemother 1984; 14 (Suppl B): 325-330
[2] Gill et al, Hypokalemic metabolic alkalosis induced by high-dose ampicillin sodium. Am J Hosp Pharm 1977; 34: 528-31
[3] Lewis et al, Altered bowel function and duodenal bacterial overgrowth in patients treated with omeprazole. Alimentary Pharmacol Ther 1996; 10: 557-61.
[4] Bradford & Taylor, Omeprazole and vitamin B12 deficiency. Ann Pharmacother 1999; 33: 641-43. Bellou et al, Cobalamin deficiency with megaloblastic anemia in one patient under long-term omeprazole therapy. J Intern Med 1996; 240: 161-4. Marcuard et al, Omeprazole therapy causes malabsorption of cyanocobalamin. Ann Int med 1994; 120: 211-15. Tang et al, Gastric acidity influences the blood response to a beta-carotene dose in humans. Am J Clin Nutr 1996; 64: 622-26.
[5] van Agtmael et al, Grapefruit juice increases bioavailability the bioavailability of artemether. Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1999; 55: 405-410.
[6] Rajnarayana et al, Study on the influence of silymarin pretreatment on metabolism and disposition of metronidazole. Arzneimittelforschung 2004; 54: 109-13.
[7] Chuang et al, Vitamin C and E supplements to lansoprazole-amoxacillin-metronidazole triple therapy may reduce the eradication rate of metronidazole-sensitive Helicobacter pylori infection. Helicobacter 2002; 7: 310-16.
[8] Surawicz et al, Prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea by Saccharomyces boulardii: A prospective study. Gastroenterol 1989; 96: 981-88
[9] Vanderhoof et al, Lactobacillus GG in the prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea in children. J Pediatr 1999; 135: 564-48. Armuzzi et al, The effect of oral administration of Lactobacillus GG on antibiotic-associated gastrointestinal side effects during helicobacter pylori eradication therapy. Aliment Pharmacol Ther 2001; 15: 163-69.
[10] LaRosa et al, Prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea with Lactobacillus sporogens and fructo-oligosaccharides in children. A multicentre double-blind vs placebo study. Minerva Pediatr 2003; 55: 447-52.
[11] Leipner et al, Therapy with proteolytic enzymes in rheumatic disorders. BioDrugs. 2001;15(12):779-89.
[12] Luerti & Vignali, Influence of bromelain on penetration of antibiotics in uterus, salpinx and ovary. Drugs Exp Clin Res 1978, 4: 45-48.
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: "There are some serious diseases that have similarities to B12 deficiency, including Guillian-Barre syndrome, Lyme neuropathy, heavy metal intoxication, and lupus myelopathy.12 Anyone who develops symptoms of nerve damage should see a doctor immediately for treatment."
Wow! They actually listed Lyme as a serious disease!! Is this article from Germany by any chance? [just looking at the names in the references]
Its quoted from all those sources below original post
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Thanks for the info Tree. So the 3+ yrs I did abx including IV probably caused my deficiency of B-12. Makes sense. That's why my increased dosages of late have made a great improvement in energy.
Pam
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
I usually dont get to excited but iam hoping this is helping i feel so much better this afternoon its just great I know I have had good effects from Magnesium,cq10,b complex, and after time this one helped Rhodiola rosea . But ill know more Iam deffinatly going to bye some sublingual B 12 I cant imagine it being anything other than the B-12 shot in the butt my mind seems clearer and Iam not depressed today and I have had many things to be depressed over lately I feel pretty normal mentaly and I just plain feel better. Boy sure hope this is the right key to the puzzel.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Proton pump inhibitors like Prilosec, used to enhance antibiotic absorption and cellular penetration, decrease formation of stomach acid, permitting overgrowth of bacteria and/or yeast in the stomach and upper gastrointestinal tract. Microbial overgrowth may be associated with gastrointestinal symptoms like diarrhea and bloating[3] and may cause malabsorption of nutrients. Prolonged use of PPIs has been associated with decreased absorption of vitamin B12, zinc, and carotene and may create a need for supplementation[4]. Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Experience has shown that collateral conditions exist in those who have been ill a long time. Test B12 levels, and be prepared to aggressively treat with parenteral formulations of the B-vitamins: 100mg each of B1 and B6 and 1000 mcg of B12 IM at least weekly in the more ill patient. Magnesium deficiency is very often present and quite severe. Magnesium is predominantly an intracellular ion, so blood level testing is of little value. Oral preparations are acceptable for maintenance, but most need parenteral dosing: 1 gram IV or IM at least weekly until neuromuscular irritability has cleared. Because the Lyme syndrome has been associated with faulty activation of T4, measure free T3 levels by RIA and basal A.M. body temperatures. If hypothyroidism is found, treat with T3 preparations.
No, you probably were not absorbing the B's. I have found B12 shots to really affect my mood in a positive way...for sure!
You're not dreaming! Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Thanks everyone I simply can not get over one B-12 shot in the a$$ and its made such a difference. Sorry I just havent had this kinda change before its always takin a lot of time this is just freakin nuts!!
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: No, you probably were not absorbing the B's. I have found B12 shots to really affect my mood in a positive way...for sure!
You're not dreaming!
thanks!!!!!!!!
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
I still hurt but that shot helped its not as near as bad as it was before the b-12 shot shoulders feel about the same as yesterday which is deffinatly better same as the rest of me back pain is down a few notches too. !
Posted by jimmystermite (Member # 11671) on :
I just had my first B-12 shot last week, after getting a call from my PCP's office telling me that I had a very low level (150).
It did help some, I think, but now my fingers are again starting to tingle and my shoulders, back and legs are hurting so bad.
My PCP has me scheduled for another shot next Tuesday, telling me that he wants me to have them every 2 weeks for 8 wks, then 1x a month after that.
Being that my level was so low and my symptoms hitting so hard again, should I be getting them more often??
I have seen in some websites under treatment, where they recommend as much a 2-3x a week at first.
Wonder if I should bring this up to my doc??
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Maybe your lke me so wore down that we need more of it? Iam still trying to figure it out I know 3 days now and its gotten better but not completly Iam deffinately going try and get another shot at my next LLMD visitr now my wife wants one too. hahahShes seen the difference in me the last few days. Its danm remarkable deffinate immprovement. Iam going to night and by sublingual B-12 2500mcg and try 2 at a time and see what happens although Ill have to make sure its nowhere near when Iam taking my pills abx's try and do the sublingual b-12 6hrs before or after abx's. From what I read sofar.
[ 10. December 2007, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]
Posted by DG (Member # 13596) on :
TREE,
Glad to hear the B-12 is doin' the trick for you. Thanks for posting the info.
That reminded me of the fact that I used to give my wife B-12 shots and it helped w/her fatigue.
Somehow we got out of the habit of doing that and so I called her from work and reminded her of this info. and we're going to resume the shots immediately.
We still have some in the med. cabinet somewhere, amongst all of the other (seems like hundreds) of meds, vit., min, etc. Can ya relate.
I pray for you all daily.
DG
Posted by David95928 (Member # 3521) on :
DR. B's guidelines have noted the we tend to chronically depleted of B vitamins and Magnesium. This may be for a number of reasons. Having had stomach surgery may have compromized my ability to make extinsic factor. If that were the case, oral supplementation would be futile. That was my experience. I spent several months taking lots of oral B12 and B complex with no noticeable effects whatsoever. As soon as I started shots, like the next day, I slept through the night for the first time in months, the aphthous ulcers on my gums cleared compltely, the angular stomatitis in the corners of my mouth that nothng would touch began healing, people started spontaneously commenting that I looked well, plus a few other things. When I slack off, the still all come back. Currently after years of this plus antibitics, I take a shot of B complex about once a week and B12 twice a month. Dave
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by David95928: DR. B's guidelines have noted the we tend to chronically depleted of B vitamins and Magnesium. This may be for a number of reasons. Having had stomach surgery may have compromized my ability to make extinsic factor. If that were the case, oral supplementation would be futile. That was my experience. I spent several months taking lots of oral B12 and B complex with no noticeable effects whatsoever. As soon as I started shots, like the next day, I slept through the night for the first time in months, the aphthous ulcers on my gums cleared compltely, the angular stomatitis in the corners of my mouth that nothng would touch began healing, people started spontaneously commenting that I looked well, plus a few other things. When I slack off, the still all come back. Currently after years of this plus antibitics, I take a shot of B complex about once a week and B12 twice a month. Dave
Amazing I dont want to get out of bed now sleeping straight through the night and alarm hahaha I must have that problem not absorbing huh I wonder if the magnesium is having difficulty being absorbed to? I know the melatonin gets me off to sleep so thats working but before the b-12 shot i would wake up anywhere from 15 to hr before my alarm now since the shot i want to stay in bed hahaha
Intrinsic factor is a natural substance normally present in the stomach. It is essential to the digestion of vitamin B-12. Lack of intrinsic factor leads to pernicious anemia and vitamin B-12 deficiency.
Posted by David95928 (Member # 3521) on :
I inject myself with Magnesium Sulfate when I start getting little spasms or twitches. It works well. I didn't try very hard with oral supplementation because, having a history of stomach surgery and surgery for an intestinal obstruction due to adhesions, I tend to be hypervigilant to any abdominal symptotms and, when they occur, immediately start wondering if this is the day I will have to have emergency abdominal surgery. Since magnisium can irritate the GI tract, a shot now and then is much easier. My take on it is the Dr. B believes that there is an absorption issue with it too. Dave
Posted by jenin98 (Member # 12617) on :
R U guys using hydroxy b12 or methyl b12? how many mg/ml do you use per injection? 1cc? Jenin
Posted by David95928 (Member # 3521) on :
I'm using standard $7.00 per 30ml vial cyanocobalamin and B Complex 100 manufactured by Niche Pharmaceuticals. Dave
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Jenin, I don't like needles. I discovered after 3 yrs of taking B-12 of course I wasn't taking enough but live and learn, I found sublinguial B-12 methyl 3000 mcg about 8 weeks ago in my local health food store.
It really really helps me. I take under the tongue late morning and it gives me some energy to get through something useful for afternoon.
Secondary Porphyria: what you should know before starting a CAP
In general, there are many aspects of this article that may be good information as lyme/ TBD tx mirrors that of Cpn.
B-12 excerpt:
Two other suggestive indicators of porphyria which don't require the more challenging 24 hour collection of specimens is measuring B-12 deficiency both directly and also from blood elements which are affected by B12 such as serum methyl malonate levels and homocystine levels.
However Dr. Stratton notes:
Homocystine levels are elevated with B12 and folate deficiency, but can be reduced by folate alone. On the other hand, serum methyl malonate levels are elevated in B12 deficiency and are not changed by folate.
Therefore, serum methyl malonate levels are the best indicator of B12 deficiency.
- full article at link above
-
Posted by typhoon_sheri (Member # 10325) on :
Very interesting topic.
On Medical Mysteries last week a woman went to many many Dr.'s for declining health, partial blindness, muscle disorders, trouble talking etc. She was not a Lyme patient, but a Rheumatologist (sp?) discovered she had no B12........... She was put on injectable B12 and doing well.
I believe it was an 8 year journey before she found her answer. Unbelievable !!!!!!!!
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
I have to ask which b-12 shot i got ? when I go back to llmd. Just for everyones info sunday which would be counting the day i recieved the b-12 shot would have been the 6 days and sunday lastnight i ached and both shoulders hurt again I think the shot wore off now this morning not bad slightly achey and can feel shoulders trying to hurt.
I went to our CVS phatmacy they didnt have sublingual b-12 all they had was some losengers 50mcg crap. I am going to try and get to gnc to see if they have it. I want another shot badly it really helped just about everything.
Ps I hate needles too but I would get 1 shot a week if it would help.hahaha heck maybe 2 shots a week
5 a week hhaaaa
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Vitamin B12 is a little bit different from other vitamins. If you don't have a certain substance in your digestive system, you can't absorb vitamin B12!
Your stomach produces a substance called intrinsic factor. This substance has to be in the intestinal tract in pretty large amounts for your body to be able to absorb vitamin B12. If you don't have intrinsic factor in your digestive tract, you'll eventually develop a vitamin B12 deficiency called pernicious anemia.
Liver is probably the number one source for vitamin B12 -- but any and all animal foods contain this vitamin.
In fact, people who don't eat meat or animal products (like vegetarians and vegans) are some of the folks at highest risk for pernicious anemia.
But just because you eat meat doesn't mean you're safe from a vitamin B12 deficiency; some people are just born without the intrinsic factor in their digestive systems. Just because you ingest the vitamin doesn't mean you'll be able to absorb and use it. Maybe me? or lost the ability?
So what does vitamin B12 do for you? This is a vitamin that is useful in fighting all kinds of diseases at all stages of life.
Children with asthma may benefit from vitamin B12 therapy. Studies show that daily oral supplements or weekly injections can reduce the frequency episodes of breathing difficulty.
Vitamin B12 helps your body produce melatonin -- the hormone that helps you get a good night's sleep. Expains my sleeping better
Vitamin B12 can help increase sperm counts in some men.look out honey haha
People with tinnitus (ringing in the ears) are often deficient in vitamin B12. Adding a supplement can help diminish the sensation of ringing.
In laboratory tests, vitamin B12 reduces the replication of HIV (wonder if it inhibits Bb?. AIDS patients often are low in vitamin B12. Is there a connection? Studies are underway.
Older adults with declining mental function -- even the start of Alzheimer's disease -- find that vitamin B12 can help improve mental clarity. My mind deffinatley cleared some
In older adults, vitamin B12 can help work with the brain to produce serotonin -- a neurotransmitter that helps maintain a calm feeling of well-being. Iam deffinatley calmer and happier??
Iam sooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!! Freakin excited that this made such a difference now to figure out if Iam lacking the ability to produce intrinsic factor or am I just really low??
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Tree, I tried different B-12s over the years. About 6 mths ago I tried GNC liquid B-12 under the tongue sublingual and didn't feel it is as good as the latest I've discovered.
From what I have read everyone, under the tongue helps with the absorbtion that is difficult with B-12 into the stomach.
Tree, let me know if you want some ordering info on this B-12 I found. I have heard from others about the B-12 wearing off in about 5 days and they could tell the difference.
Pam
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
A high level of blood serum homocysteine is a powerful risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Unfortunately attempts to decrease the risk by lowering homocysteine have not been fruitful.[5]
Studies reported in 2006 have shown that giving vitamins [folic acid, B6 and B12] to reduce homocysteine levels may not quickly offer benefit, however a significant 25% reduction in stroke was found in the HOPE-2 study [6] even in patients mostly with existing serious arterial decline although the overall death rate was not significantly changed by the intervention in the trial. Clearly, reducing homocysteine does not quickly repair existing structural damage of the artery architecture. However, the science is strong supporting the biochemistry that homocysteine degrades and inhibits the formation of the three main structural components of the artery, collagen, elastin and the proteoglycans. Homocysteine permanently degrades cysteine [disulfide bridges] and lysine amino acid residues in proteins, gradually affecting function and structure. Simply put, homocysteine is a 'corrosive' of long-living [collagen, elastin] or life-long proteins [fibrillin].
ah ha!!! fibrillin conection need lower homocysteine thats whats happening . ]My last visit LLMD Bp higher, cholesterol up,pain up isnt this might be it? NEED More B-12 B-6 B-9
These long-term effects are difficult to establish in clinical trials focusing on groups with existing artery decline. The main role of reducing homocysteine is likely in 'prevention' but with a slow but probable role in 'cure'.
Also this I had a molar break a couple of months ago and I was cutting easily>>
Bone weakness
Elevated levels of homocysteine have been linked to increased fractures in elderly persons.[9][10] Homocysteine does not appear to have any effect on bone density. Instead, it appears that homocysteine affects collagen by interfering with the cross-linking between collagen fibers and the tissues they reinforce.
Vitamin supplements could counter the effects of homocysteine on collagen. As B12 is inefficiently absorbed from food by elderly persons, they could gain a greater benefit from taking in higher doses orally or via intramuscular injection.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by map1131: Tree, I tried different B-12s over the years. About 6 mths ago I tried GNC liquid B-12 under the tongue sublingual and didn't feel it is as good as the latest I've discovered.
From what I have read everyone, under the tongue helps with the absorbtion that is difficult with B-12 into the stomach.
Tree, let me know if you want some ordering info on this B-12 I found. I have heard from others about the B-12 wearing off in about 5 days and they could tell the difference.
Pam
pm me please.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Conclusions. The evidence derived from these limited studies suggests that 2000 �g doses of oral vitamin B12 daily and 1000 �g doses initially daily and thereafter weekly and then monthly may be as effective as intramuscular administration in obtaining short-term haematological and neurological responses in vitamin B12-deficient patients. From
I buy mine from Rainbow Blossom. This is fairly new item for them. I believe it was $10-12 and that is 50 lozenges.
One lozenge to dissolve under tongue 4 to 7 times weekly.
Warning for pregnant & nursing mothers.
I do plan to have my B-12 levels tested this month. My PCP lyme literate doctor noticed my fingernails and no half moons except thumbs (they are the last to go) 4 yrs ago when I first started taking B-12. Little did I know or my doc that I needed more than the 500 mcg I was taking then.
Half moons are better, but I believe 3000 mcg for the last 2 months is still not enough and I will be deficeint.
Hope this helps someone else as it seems to give me a lift.
Pam
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Thanks I think Ill try GNC first
Posted by Ellie K (Member # 12056) on :
This all interests me very much. A few questions:
Do you need a script for B12 shots??
If no, where do you buy it? (and injection supplies)
What kind of a test should be ordered to see if you are deficient?
Thanks for your help!
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ellie K: This all interests me very much. A few questions:
Do you need a script for B12 shots??
If no, where do you buy it? (and injection supplies)
What kind of a test should be ordered to see if you are deficient?
Thanks for your help!
Dr or nurse gives the B-12 shots.
Posted by David95928 (Member # 3521) on :
Standard B12 (Cyanocobalamin) is over the counter in Canada and sold by the online pharmacies. However, while most doctors question its effectiveness, it's my experience that they will humor me and prescribe. They carry it at most pharmacies. I get it at CostCo.
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Tree, are you wanting to use the cyanocobalamin B-12 vs. the methylcobalamin B-12? Because I noticed the GNC product is the cyanocobalamin.
Thanks, I've saved it to read when I get back from the visit to Gatlinburg, TN. A Christmas holiday visit in the Great Smokey Mountains!!!! aaahhhhh
Pam
Posted by Jellybelly (Member # 7142) on :
There is a product called "B12 Dots". A tiny little sublingual very red dot. I found them to be the next best thing to the shots.
There was also a product I tried many years ago, little tubes of B12 gel you put in your nose. The nose is a very good place for absorbing stuff. I liked it too, but it often ran down your nose a bit and you could appear as if you had a bloody nose.
The B12 shots I take are so strong that they turn your pee red. Was a real shocker the first time, doc forgot to mention this. For me, in lesser doses, if it doesn't turn my pee red, then it needs to be stronger, the weaker stuff just doesn't work as well.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Mine turned like tea for 3 days. That b-12 shot lasted got it on a tuesday11-27-07 and sunday12-2-07 night I was hurting again. Iam deffinatly discuss this with my LLMD next appt\.
[ 12. December 2007, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Missed work yesterday 12-11-07 shoulders really hurt. Apparently the b-12 by mouth ingestion isnt cutting it. I need another shot see llmd on 26th.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Thanks Jellybelly
Posted by Munch (Member # 11323) on :
I just started on compounded Methyl B12 on Wed. I'm allergic/intolerant to corn so I needed to get this compounded.
Even though I've been supplementing with 1,000 mg of oral corn free B12 per day my tongue is sore and cracked. I have constipation issues and a long history of GI issues.
My insurance covered the cost except for a $25 copay and $6 for the needles.
My instructions are to inject one ml 1-3 times per week or as needed. After just two shots, I'm noticing huge positive changes. Maybe as needed will be "everyday".
I had been doing the Methlyation protocol with Folapro and Intrinsi Factor but was not having results like this.
Doing the shot myself was super easy. I'm already injecting heparin and HGH.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by Munch: I just started on compounded Methyl B12 on Wed. I'm allergic/intolerant to corn so I needed to get this compounded.
Even though I've been supplementing with 1,000 mg of oral corn free B12 per day my tongue is sore and cracked. I have constipation issues and a long history of GI issues.
My insurance covered the cost except for a $25 copay and $6 for the needles.
My instructions are to inject one ml 1-3 times per week or as needed. After just two shots, I'm noticing huge positive changes. Maybe as needed will be "everyday".
I had been doing the Methlyation protocol with Folapro and Intrinsic Factor but was not having results like this.
Doing the shot myself was super easy. I'm already injecting heparin and HGH.
Are you taking any other b12? Iam also taking 3 full eyedropper fulls its helped quite a bit and taking complex b vitamins ,magnesium,cq10
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Got another shot b-12 it didnt feel the same as the first shot? And I seem to want to sleep more this time although my shoulders pain is still down around 2or3 so thats good. Going to get 4 more sjots b-12 one a week will see how that works out? Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Well I gave myself my first B-12 shot right in the belly fat. I hate needles but I have to say I didnt even feel it.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Today is the 1/14/08 last wed I gave myself my first b-12 injection this makes 3 now over a coarse of 2 months or so and I got up today after feeling everday a little better but today I feel iam at abou 80 to 90 percent better when it comes to aching and joint pain.
So what Iam saying is lymenetters dont over look the depleation of the B vitamins or magnesium or any mineral !
I cant wait until wed to give myself another.
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Tree, I had on my list of things to do, ask Tree how the B-12 shots are going?
Thanks for posting update.
Pam
Posted by David95928 (Member # 3521) on :
Tree, I'm glad it's helping. Injecting that stuff is a piece of cake. It's interesting how we can look forward to something we previously avoided if we find it to be effective.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by map1131: Tree, I had on my list of things to do, ask Tree how the B-12 shots are going?
Thanks for posting update.
Pam
Right now one a week.I think it was 10.0 ml?
[ 15. January 2008, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Tree, I love it. Now I'm going to study all this info. Next week when I go for my EGD, I can guide my gastro/friend on what I want him to look for.
Any biopsy suggestions anyone for stomach/small intestine? Since my colon seems to be bacteria, virus and parasite free???? There's got to some explanation for my IBS sx.
Now if lyme & company would only be considered a auto-immune disorder by all the medical establishment?????
Hats off to Tree!!!!!!!
Pam
Posted by dlp252 (Member # 10711) on :
Good going! I have just started B12 shots myself, and in fact, will be giving myself one today. I got three in the LLMDs office, then learned how to do it myself on Friday, so from now on, I'm it. I'm slightly (okay more than slightly) nervous...the one on Friday was in the doctor's office with a nurse watching what I was doing.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
3. Nerves are damaged by different hormone-like molecules (cytokines, tumor necrosis factor, and epidermal growth factor) which become unbalanced in the nerve tissue in B12 deficiency.8
8. Scalabrino G. Subacute combined degeneration one century later. The neurotrophic action of cobalamin (vitamin B12) revisited. J Neuropathol Exp Neurol. 2001 Feb;60(2):109-20.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Background on Homocysteine
Methionine is an essential amino acid obtained from protein in the diet. Some methionine is turned into homocysteine. The body turns much of this homocysteine back into methionine with the help of vitamin B12. If someone is B12-deficient, homocysteine levels will increase because this reaction cannot take place.
Homocysteine appears to be a nerve and vessel toxin, promoting mortality, cardiovascular disease (CVD), stroke, Alzheimer's Disease, birth defects, recurrent pregnancy loss, and eye disorders. These will each be discussed below.
B12 and Chronic Disease: Cancer
Summary: There is some evidence that a low B12 intake could play a role in the development of cancer.
To be confident of a link between a nutrient deficiency and cancer, numerous prospective studies should be conducted showing such an association.
As of May of 2002, there was only one prospective study performed with the purpose of examining the relation between B12 and cancer (discussed below), and it was not performed on people with especially low B12 levels.
Thus, there is not a lot of evidence one way or the other at this time. On the other hand, there is some evidence that low B12 intakes increase DNA damage which could then lead to cancer.
B12 and DNA Damage
It is thought that since B12 is needed for proper DNA production, a lack of B12 could have an effect on cancer through the incorporation of uracil into DNA.
This can cause chromosome breakage resulting in a cancerous cell.1 The same can be said of folate.1
Fenech2 studied folate and B12 levels and intake in respect to DNA damage in white blood cells (lymphocytes) which has been shown to be a good marker for future cancer. They found that serum B12 > 405 pg/ml and a supplemental intake of 7 �g of B12/day was optimal for reducing DNA damage. The subjects were not vegetarian.
The reasoning for the use of B12 and other B vitamins.
On the other hand, secreted substances could injure the neural cells. While B.b. do not possess any known endotoxin (100), cells of the host could secret neurotoxic products in response to the spirochetes. Schwann cells, for example, appear to produce nitric oxide (NO) in the rhesus monkey model of LNB (101) and the incubation of glial-enriched primary cultures of neonatal rat brain cells with B.b. leads to the accumulation of NO in the culture medium (78). In addition, macrophages incubated with B.b. can produce quinolonic acid, an agonist of NMDA synaptic function, which can be neurotoxic in higher concentrations (102). Furthermore, the spirochetes can induce cytokines like IL-6 or TNF-α in glial cells that are both neurotoxic and might provoke autoimmune reactions (99;103). Taken together, the neural dysfunction in LNB patients might also be due to secreted substances that are induced by spirochetes.
Cytokins Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 2001 Jan;71(1):60-5.
Vitamin B-12-deficiency affects immunoglobulin production and cytokine levels in mice.
Funada U, Wada M, Kawata T, Mori K, Tamai H, Isshiki T, Onoda J, Tanaka N, Tadokoro T, Maekawa A.
Faculty of Applied Bioscience, Tokyo University of Agriculture, Setagaya-ku, Tokyo 156-8502, Japan.
To clarify the role of B-12 in the immunological function, serum C3, IgM, IgG, IgE contents, splenocytes expression of CD4, CD8, and CD4 positive intracellular IFN-gamma and IL-4 were examined in B-12-deficient mice, and the effect of the administration of CH3-B-12 was also studied. Serum C3, IgM and IgG contents were lower in B-12-deficient mice than in the control mice. On the other hand, serum IgE content was significantly higher in B-12-deficient mice, and the value in CH3-B-12 administered mice, administered CH3-B-12 to B-12-deficient mice for 48 h before the end of feeding period, showed a tendency to recovery. CD4+CD8- cells and CD4+CD8-/CD4-CD8+ ratio in splenocytes were significantly higher in B-12-deficient mice than in control mice. CD4+IFN-gamma+ cells was significantly lower in B-12-deficient mice than in control mice, and CD4+IL-4+ was significantly higher in B-12-deficient mice than in control mice. These results suggest that B-12-deficiency causes CD4+CD8-T cells shift from the T helper type 1 to the T helper type 2, which participate in the IgE production and elevates CD4+CD8-/CD4-CD8+ ratio. Thus, B-12 plays a role in maintaining the immune function in mice.
PMID: 11276924 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related Links
Changes in CD4+CD8-/CD4-CD8+ ratio and humoral immune functions in vitamin B12-deficient rats. [Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 2000] PMID:10989765
Deficiency of CD26 results in a change of cytokine and immunoglobulin secretion after stimulation by pokeweed mitogen. [Eur J Immunol. 2003] PMID:12778469
The role of interleukin-10 in the generation of CD4+ and CD8+ memory T cells (expressing a CD44+, CD62L- phenotype) and their contribution to the regulation of immunoglobulin E antibody formation. [Int Arch Allergy Immunol. 2002] PMID:11979045
Eosinophilia, IgE production, and cytokine production by lung T cells in surface CD4-deficient mutant mice infected with Toxocara canis. [Immunology. 1998] PMID:9767463
Induction of the imbalance of helper T-cell functions in mice exposed to diesel exhaust. [Sci Total Environ. 2001] PMID:11327383
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Gave myself another B-12 shot 10.ml on 1-22-08 6am. Feeling good and getting stronger pain levels all pain down 1 to 2 from before a constant 8tp9to10 for months and months
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Gosh Tree, I'm glad you are doing good on the B-12 injections. I just hate needles so bad and to think about giving to myself again, makes me cringe.
I gave myself the HGH for months and I'm still cringe just thinking about it. But if I need to try it, I will do what I got to do.
I will not quit the fight of winning this war with lyme & company.
Pam
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Pam thats the way Iam about needles too hate them but it didnt hurt and it sure helping me.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Still feeling good!!! up for others!! Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
B12 DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS, SIGNS AND CO-CORRELLATES high urine MMA (specific shortage of adenosylcobalamin) high serum homocystein (specific shortage of methylcoabalmin) mouth sensitive to hot and cold sore burning tongue beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal sore mouth, no infection or apparent reason teeth sensitive to hot and cold burning bladder (no UTI) painful urgency (no UTI) burning urethra (no UTI) burning muscle pain accumulating muscle pains following exertion sore muscles lack of muscle recovery after exercise exercise does not build muscle dyspepsia - sick stomach, nausea, regurgitation, vomiting, bloating, not emptying, etc flatulence altered bowel habits abdominal pain loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs and/or dairy foods, the ONLY foods containing b12 - nutrient specific anorexia intermittent constipation intermittant diarrhea irritable bowel syndrome Crohns disease (direction of causality if any not established) Celiac disease (direction of causality if any not established) - gluten sensitivity Dairy sensitivity, lactose and/or proteins (direction of causality if any not established) Sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part reduced libido - loss of sexual desire loss of orgasmic intensity, unsatisfying orgasms inability to orgasm loss and/or change of genital sensation unable to become aroused [b]MEN erectile disfunction
WOMEN post partum depression post partum psychosis False positive pap smears menstrual symptoms paleness rapid heart rate shortness of breath heart palpitations weak pulse congestive heart failure Hypothyroid (direction of causality if any not established) psychosis, including many of the most florid psychosis seen in literature, formerly known as megoblastic madness Alzheimers (very recent research, 2007) irritable depression mania dizziness - even unable to walk delirium dementia paranoia delusions hallucinations mental slowing personality changes chronic malaise poor concentration moodiness tiredness mood swings memory loss listlessness anxiety or tension nervousness impaired connection to others mentally fuzzy, foggy mild to extremely severe fatigue continuous extremely severe fatigue easy fatiguability severe abnormal fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death weakness sleep disorders non restorative sleep alteration of touch all over body, can be unpleasant and painful alterations and loss of taste alterations and loss of smell loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically roughening and increased raspiness of voice, can smooth in mid word with methylb12 blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow, or present for life Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss optic atophy centrocecal scotomata diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return tinnitus - ringing in ears always feeling cold Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible coma may occur neural tube defect not caused by folate deficiency or child with it demyelinated areas on nerves subacute combined degeneration axonial degeneration of spinal cord unsteadiness of gait ataxic gait, particularly in dark positive Romberg positive Lhermittes Positive bilateral Babinski reflex neuropathies, many types progressive bilateral neuropathies demyelination of nerves - white spots on nerves on MRIs loss of detail and sensual aspects of touch all over body paresthesias in both feet - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc paresthesias in both legs - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc paresthesias in both hands - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc paresthesias in both arms - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness Loss of position sense is the most common abnormality (or vibration sense) Loss of vibration sense is the most common abnormality (or position sense) hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity toes turn up instead of down in reflex to sole stimulation sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement standing with eyes closed, a slight nudge or bump causes loss of balance most patients have signs of both spinal cord and peripheral nerve involvement Motor impairment may range from only mild clumsiness to a spastic paraplegia clumsiness slowed nerve impulses The effect on reflexes is quite variable decreased reflexes difficulty swallowing brisk reflexes brisk reflexes impaired white blood cell response decreased deep tendon reflex poor resistance to infections easy bruising pronounced anemia macrocytic anemia megablastic anemia pernicious anemia decreased blood clotting low hematocrit MCV > 94 first warning, MCV > 99 alert (Mean Corpuscular Volume) elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin) elevated LDH big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it, completely misinterpreting results of MCV) platelet disfunction, low count white cell changes, low count headaches inflamed epithelial tissues inflamed endothelial tissues mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash frequent infected follicles Seborrheic dermatitis dandruff eczema dermatitis skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown, or yellow if anemia occurs poor hair condition thin nails painfully tight muscles, especially legs frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body Bariatric surgery Dilantin and some other medications relative (parent, grandparant, sibling, child, grandchild, ever needing B12 shots or supplements
AS INFANT OR CHILD delayed myelination failure to thrive autism delayed speech depression frequent toncilitis frequent strep frequent pneumonia frequent longlasting supposed viral illnesses that linger and linger and linger everything goes to the lungs for extended periods headaches growing pains skin problems dandruff allergies asthma
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Great threads here, thanks treepatrol. Vitamin B-12 seems to be rather important to our ill bodies.
I hope others see how beneficial it can be. Even if you can't pay for meds thru a doctor like tree is or give yourself an injection of b-12 like tree is doing.....
sublingual B-12 is cheap, cheap compared to many other supps I take. Don't start on mega doses. Based on what I experienced I wish I would of started on 1000 mcg and worked my way up over a few months to 3000 mcg.
I took 500 mcg for over 3 yrs before I found the information that being b-12 defiecent means you need more than 500 mcg.
I've been doing the 3000 5-7 days a week for a few months. I wouldn't be without it now.
Pam
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Thanks Map or Pam Posted by Geneal (Member # 10375) on :
I took the B12 through shots the first few weeks of Lyme.
I didn't notice any increase of energy....but a decrease.
Noted that one of the side effects can be increased drowsiness.
I just got tired of my shots. Two a week.
Lucky my RN neighbor gave them to me, but they still burned like crazy.
I now take mentanx which is a Rx B12.
I tried the sublingual. Yuck and it made my tongue feel.....numb.
The only draw back is that my insurance will cover the shots, but not the pill form.
Still, it is worth 40.00 a month to not have to have any needles pointed
At my rear end.
The articles were very informative. In fact my husband has been complaining
Of his tongue being sore. He is going to get his B12 shot tomorrow.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Up for this week of 2/4/08.
Iam still giving myself b12 shots and iam holding my own every 3 or 4 days depending on how i feel ie if i start getting achey then a shot and iam good again.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
up date week 02/11/08 feeling pretty good still no aches. B12 injections work for me.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Update still doing great on b12 injections week 0f 2/18/2008.
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Geneal, that is weird that b-12 sublingual made you tongue numb? Did it just tingle and feel funny under the tongue where you place it, or did the whole tongue feel odd?
I've done different brands and different strengths and liguids under the tongue and I don't recall anything unpleasant or nasty about it for 5 years.
B-12 is very hard for the body to absorb. Especially through the stomach from what I understand and have read many places. Tell me about this pill form? What's the stength and how is your body absorbing this pill form?
Pam
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Introduction A Scarlet Pimpernel for the Resolution of Inflammation? 1 proposed that vitamin B12, cobalamin (Cbl), in all its various forms, is central to the effectiveness of the immune inflammatory response, and that its deficiency, chronic, functional or 'compartmental', may largely contribute to the aetiology of systemic inflammatory response system
(SIRS)/sepsis/septic shock, as well as autoimmune disease, central nervous system (CNS) disease, cancer, in particular haematological malignancy 2, and the progression of AIDS.
The hitherto unexplained elevation of Cbl carrier proteins, the transcobalamins (TC I, II and III), their receptors, and TC unsaturated B12 binding capacity (UBBC) in trauma, infections, chronic inflammatory conditions 3-9 and some cancers 2 9-13 was seen to signal a central need for Cbl as a principal regulator of inflammation.
The initial hypothesis proposed that Cbl might exert a pivotal effect on inflammation via regulation of the redox sensitive transcription factor, NFB 14, which determines the expression of a diversity of genes encoding mediators of the pro- and anti-inflammatory phases of the immune response: cytokines, chemokines and inducible enzymes, principally, cyclooxygenase (Cox II), inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) 15 and heme-oxygenase (HO-1) 16.
Regulated expression of such genes by NFB, a family of rel protein homo- and heterodimers (RelA/p65, RelB, cRel, p50, p52), ultimately determines cell survival or proliferation, tissue repair and apoptosis.
Evidence for five interrelated mechanisms by which Cbl might regulate NFB was put forward:
(1) hormone-like regulation of tumour necrosis factor- (TNF), through scavenging of excess nitric oxide (NO) by Cbl, as well as through the selective inhibition by Cbl, in tandem with gluthathione, of iNOS;
(2) Cbl-quenching of NO radicals (RNIS) and reactive oxygen species (ROS), enhanced by Cbl's glutathione (GSH) sparing/promotional effect;
(3) Cbl promotion of acetylcholine synthesis, central to the neuro-immune cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway;
(4) Cbl's promotion of cellular energy and respiration via the tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle and oxidative phosphorylation;
(5) a bacteriostatic role of the TCS released by neutrophil secondary granules during phagocytosis, which also appears to modulate the inflammatory response 1.
Vitamin B-12 And Lyme Disease This comes from Sue Massy, a great fighter in the Lyme Battles.
B12 is critical in the human body and lymies especially are deficient due to poor digestion (lacking the intrinsic factor in the stomach). Here is some helpful info:
Get a plentiful amount in your food. Liver or shellfish eaten at least once a week is the the best way to ensure that you are taking in adequate amounts.
Avoid overconsumption of foods that block vitamin B12 intake or increase the body’s need for the vitamin, such as soy foods and spirulina.
Avoid antacids and drugs that lower stomach acid levels: acid-suppressing drugs such as Tagamet, Zantac and Losec can lead to serious B12 deficiency (Koop H. Aliment Pharmacol Ther 1992;6:399-406 [review]; Marcaurd SP and others. Ann Intern Med 1994;120:211-215).
Avoid diabetes drugs such as Glucophage which also interfere with B12 absorption (Archives Int Med 2002 Feb 25;162:484-85.
Consume plenty of calcium. Calcium is involved in the absorption of B12 from the lower small intestine. Best sources are raw dairy products and bone broths. (Bone broths also help heal intestinal inflammation that could cause absorption problems.) Dolomite powder can also be used as a calcium source.
Take coconut oil and consume lacto-fermented foods: these help fight against pathogens such as helicobacter pylori, which is associated with B12 deficiency. Eradication of the organism often clears up B12 deficiency. (Archives of Internal Medicine, May 8, 2000 160:1349-53)
Avoid foods fortified with folic acid. Taking folic acid without B12 can mask signs of B12 deficiency in red blood cells but will not protect against deficiencies in the nervous system.
Folic acid and B12 work together and any supplementation program should include both of these nutrients (Institute of Medicine. Food and Nutrition Board. Dietary Reference Intakes: Thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6, folate, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, biotin, and choline. National Academy Press. Washington, DC 1998).
Avoid taking excess vitamin C, especially for long periods. The ability of vitamin C to destroy B12 has been observed by several researchers-although this is disputed by others.
Small amounts of natural vitamin C are a better choice than large amounts of synthetic vitamin C. (Herbert V and Das KC. Folic acid and vitamin B12. In: Shils ME, Olson JA, Shike M, eds. Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease. 8th ed. PhiladelphiaL Lea & Febiger, 1994:404.)
Dont smoke. Cigarette and cigar-smoking deplete vitamin B12 (New Eng J Med 1995 Nov 2;333(18):1176-82).
Take extra B12 before and after surgery. Nitrous oxide anesthesia during surgery can deplete B12, a fact that may explain many cases of post-operative depression (Marie RM and others. Arch Neurol 2000 Mar;57(3):380-2).
Avoid vaccinations containing thimerosol and other mercury-containing compounds. Vitamin B12 is depleted by mercury (J Molecular Psychiatry Apr 2004).
Avoid molds in the environment and your food. Mycotoxins produced by molds disrupt or interfere with the normal functions of vitamin B12 (Anyanwi EC and others. Scientific World Journal 2004 Aug;4:736-45).
Do not take oral contraceptives (the pill), which can deplete vitamin B12. (Henley S. Body Forum 1977 Jan 30;2(7):20; Sutterlin MW and others. http://isthereacure.info/?p=80 Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
H Pylori can cause an individual to have a Vitamin B12 deficiency. It is also a known contributor to gastritis, ulcers, and it can prevent to stomach from being able to absorb the Vitamin B12 you consume. According to the information on the PCC Natural Markets website, an infection of Helicobacter Pylori, especially in adults will lead to a deficiency of Vitamin B12.
One study has found that 56% of those with H Pylori are also anemic due to a lack of Vitamin B12. Taking care of the H Pylori has shown that blood levels improve and Vitamin B12 are higher for 40% of those who have been infected. Some other studies indicate that H Pylori and a Vitamin B12 deficiency are definitely linked. However, eliminating H Plyori doesn't always mean the body will be able to have a higher level of Vitamin B12. Therefore it is important to have it carefully monitored.
A study regarding the effects of H Pylori on Vitamin B12 levels can be found in the archives of Internal Medicine (Vol. 160, No. 9, May 8 of 2000). This study involved 138 individuals who were diagnosed with both anemia and a Vitamin B12 deficiency. Each individual in the study completed a Gastrointestinal Endoscopy to determine how severe the atrophic gastritis was. A biopsy was conducted for Campylobacter organisms and a complete medical history was documented. The diagnosis of H Plyori resulted in a combination treatment.
The study determined that H Pylori was found in 77 of the 138 patients (56%). They H Plylori infection and the anemia both improved with the assistance of Vitamin B12 supplements in 31 (40%) of the individuals. Therefore, it is reasonable to state that H Plylori is linked to a Vitamin B12 deficiency.
The results of various studies have shown that H Pylori damages the stomach cells which prevents it from successfully absorbing the Vitamin B12. Taking care of the H Pylori will help with the level of Vitamin B12 but not in every case. It is therefore essential that you have your Vitamin B12 levels checked at routine intervals if you have ever had H Pylori.
Tree, I printed off the medical url you posted that was written in '88. When reading it, I started getting very aggitated with my gastro doctor.
I would think a gastro doctor should know that B-12 deficiency can cause my gastritis. I'm glad I've been through the colonoscopy, endoscopy and the bowel x-rays. I know that my colon, small intestine, large intestine shown problems but at least there is nothing too serious from the lyme & company so far.
This doctor has yet to share all my test results and the literal pages that he reports to me. He doesn't know yet, but a visit soon to his office is going to be a drilling by me and a review of my own test results.
I don't know if he tested my B-12 levels or not. But after all this research I've been reading, he better have. After all he has ordered fecal tests, blood test, biopicies, etc.
Even if there is a test level that says my B-12 is in normal range, I won't believe it. I've been doing B-12 for 5 yrs. Sublingual though?
I'm going to have this gastro doc order B-12 injections for me. I will learn to do myself from home. I'm a big baby, but I will try anything (well almost) to take care of my GI problems.
Oh yeah Tree, I won't eat my feces or a cow pile. Thanks for all your posting/info on this thread.
Pam
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Wow Pam!
I jsut wanted to put this weeks update in to. 2/25/2008 doing good otherthan rifampin causing me to wake up through the night no aching at all I have started getting a floater thing in left eye which started about a week into the rifampin Iam glad allmost done with taht stuff.
I feel good sore from all the brooming and shovaling of snow this past week hahaha.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Week 3/3/2008 b12 shots doing good shovaled snow friday saturday relaxed sunday sore and today half as sore and gave myself injection this morning feel good!! what a relief after aching for so very very long.!! Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Tree, here's my update. Went to gastro today and he told me all the blood they took doesn't include doing B-12 levels. He said gastritis causes B-12 deficiency. Not lack of B-12 causes gastrisis.
Not a good day today. I'm feeling so defeated at this point. He did order an blood evaluation of my B-12 levels. Didn't have time to get blood drawn this morning. I had appt in 20 minutes with my therpists.
Thank God. I was at the end of my rope this morning. Next step is looking into surgery for hemorrhoids. Problem is nothing has been done to stop the cause of my hemorrhoids. All typical meds have failed at my GI issues that have caused this problem.
I'm glad you keep this thread coming up. I've got to figure something out. Hoorrraaaayyy for Tree. Shoveled snow? I can't shovel snow due to the other problem? lol
Pam
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
So hang in there and still take b12 shots sometimes I wonder where Drs heads are? Posted by Nicoles Mom (Member # 14408) on :
Nicole is on B-12 shots 2 x weekly. It helps. Her LLMD said she could take as often as every other day.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Starting this week 3/10/2008 feel good!! Still no aching I take one shot 10.ml or 1 cc every four days.
Had a hemmroid problem better now not completly healed though. Posted by Ann-OH (Member # 2020) on :
You can get B12 in sublingual pellets at your health food store. I take one called "No Shot" It has Folic Acid as well. It is pretty inexpensive. I get it for $15 per 90 tabs.
A study reported at a Canadian conference said sublingual was as effective as shots. I think I posted that here someplace.
If you want to see it, let me know.
Ann - OH
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ann-OH: You can get B12 in sublingual pellets at your health food store. I take one called "No Shot" It has Folic Acid as well. It is pretty inexpensive. I get it for $15 per 90 tabs.
A study reported at a Canadian conference said sublingual was as effective as shots. I think I posted that here someplace.
If you want to see it, let me know.
Ann - OH
Thanks Ann Dont know if it would work on me Iam taking 10ml every for days guess Ill need to convert it to mcg's??
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Doing good still taking b12 injections every 4th day no more aching!!! yea Date 3/17/2008
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Apparently beer flushes b12 I ache today took shot this morning 3/24/08 starting to feel better duh wont do that again.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
No more beer.
I feel great today. I thoght I better put this link in here easier to find. B 12 shots whos getting them? Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Iam feeling good no aching still week of 3/31/08!
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
Wow! How did this thread get by me for so long?
After treating H. Pylori, my doctor has me on prescription sublingual B-12. It looks and tastes like blood but I am glad to be getting it.
Especially glad after reading this thread.
Luvs
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Eyes are almost back to normal and the drops worn off almost 40hrs not the same as the eye Drs normal drops.
Anyway feeling great today took b12 shot this morning update 4/4/08
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
I love b12 shots what a difference its making !!
wish I had my intrinsic factor back though. Date 4/8/08 Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
4/15/2008 B2 injections feeling stronger each week!!! No aching at all!!
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Thanks for all the info.
I get a catalog of vitamins that is geared towards people with fibromyalgia. They sell a bunch of different B-12 supplements.
Do you think any of these are good? Can't really afford shots/doctor at this time.
THE MOST POTENT SINGLE DOSE OF B-12 ON THE MARKET!
ProHealth's founder, Rich Carson, set out to develop the most potent B-12 supplement on the market - and that he did! B-12 Extreme contains the world's most potent single dose of all four forms of B-12 on the market, including the only two biologically active forms in humans - methylcobalamin and dibencozide. Low blood levels of vitamin B-12 are frequently associated with fatigue and malaise. Hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin have also recently gained attention from leading CFS and FM researchers and doctors.
MENTAL ACUITY - Methylcobalamin 12.5 mg Methylcobalamin, perhaps the most important and potent of the essential cobalamins, plays a vital part in cell growth. Particularly important for your central nervous system, it helps promote healthy homocysteine levels and helps increase the brain's focus and clarity, and the spinal cord's function.
ENERGY - Dibencozide 12.5 mg Dibencozide metabolizes essential fatty acids to produce more energy. As a biologically active form of B-12, it reacts with cells to provide muscles and nerves with bursts of energy.
LIVER SUPPORT - Cyanocobalamin 7.5 mg Cyanocobalamin, the most common of the cobalamins, becomes active in your liver, creating enzymes to help the body with blood formation, cell reproduction, iron utilization, and tissue synthesis, while aiding the digestion and absorption of foods.
DETOXIFICATION - Hydroxocobalamin 2.5 mg Hydroxocobalamin, one of the three essential cobalamins that make up the vitamin B-12 complex, helps remove heavy metals from the system and supports overall detoxification. It also assists with methylation and energy production.
Dissolves under your tongue for maximum absorption.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by sparkle7: Thanks for all the info.
I get a catalog of vitamins that is geared towards people with fibromyalgia. They sell a bunch of different B-12 supplements.
Do you think any of these are good? Can't really afford shots/doctor at this time.
THE MOST POTENT SINGLE DOSE OF B-12 ON THE MARKET!
ProHealth's founder, Rich Carson, set out to develop the most potent B-12 supplement on the market - and that he did! B-12 Extreme contains the world's most potent single dose of all four forms of B-12 on the market, including the only two biologically active forms in humans - methylcobalamin and dibencozide. Low blood levels of vitamin B-12 are frequently associated with fatigue and malaise. Hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin have also recently gained attention from leading CFS and FM researchers and doctors.
MENTAL ACUITY - Methylcobalamin 12.5 mg Methylcobalamin, perhaps the most important and potent of the essential cobalamins, plays a vital part in cell growth. Particularly important for your central nervous system, it helps promote healthy homocysteine levels and helps increase the brain's focus and clarity, and the spinal cord's function.
ENERGY - Dibencozide 12.5 mg Dibencozide metabolizes essential fatty acids to produce more energy. As a biologically active form of B-12, it reacts with cells to provide muscles and nerves with bursts of energy.
LIVER SUPPORT - Cyanocobalamin 7.5 mg Cyanocobalamin, the most common of the cobalamins, becomes active in your liver, creating enzymes to help the body with blood formation, cell reproduction, iron utilization, and tissue synthesis, while aiding the digestion and absorption of foods.
DETOXIFICATION - Hydroxocobalamin 2.5 mg Hydroxocobalamin, one of the three essential cobalamins that make up the vitamin B-12 complex, helps remove heavy metals from the system and supports overall detoxification. It also assists with methylation and energy production.
Dissolves under your tongue for maximum absorption.
One of your posts stated that oral supplements (maybe under the tongue) are just as good as shots. I didnt say that someone posted that here but some of the literture does say sublingual is as good as injections.
All i can say is give the b12 sublingual a try and see if it helps. If not then have Dr prescribe b12 injections and give them to yourself I inject myself just between the skin and the fat on my belly at a 10 to 30 degree angle being careful not hitting a blood vessel.
The syringes cost is cheap and so is the b12 juice that you inject. I know when I tryed sublingual I took 5to10 times the dose but it didnt seem to work at there doses recomended. That got expensive. Now the sublinguals you showed me maybe more effcient?
Let me know how it turns out.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
So happens - I just got this link in an e-mail from Pro-health today (see below) !
Maybe they knew I was checking this info out on their site yesterday???
I got some B-12 at the health food store yesterday & started it right away.
I used to give myself shots of growth hormone - so shots don't freak me out.
Could a Common B-12 Deficiency Be Causing Your Symptoms?
by Dr. Dana Myatt, NMD, and Mark Ziemann, RN* ImmuneSupport.com
03-08-2008
Advertisement
Less than 20 years ago, patients complaining of fatigue were often given a "tonic shot" by their doctor. Many people claimed this worked like magic to improve their energy levels. What was this miracle tonic? A simple injection of vitamin B-12. Although the practice of administering vitamin B-12 injections has fallen out of favor, modern medical science now understands why vitamin B-12 supplementation makes people feel better, and the reasons extend far beyond just the "placebo effect" of receiving a shot.
The Far-Reaching Effects of Vitamin B-12 Deficiency
Vitamin B-12, called "cobalamin" because it contains the mineral cobalt, is required for a staggering number of physical functions and chemical reactions. Best known for its participation in the manufacture of red blood cells, B-12 is also needed for production and maintenance of the myelin sheath that surrounds nerves and for production of DNA, the genetic material of all cells. And that's just the beginning.
The serious health consequences of vitamin B-12 deficiency can adversely affect nearly every system in the body.
Energy: Even minor deficiencies of vitamin B-12 can cause anemia, fatigue, shortness of breath and weakness.
The Nervous System: Deficiencies of B-12 can cause neurological changes including numbness and tingling in the hands and feet, balance problems, depression, confusion, poor memory and Alzheimer's-like symptoms. Long-term deficiencies of B-12 can result in permanent impairment of the nervous system.
The Gastro-Intestinal System: B-12 deficiency can cause decreased appetite, constipation, diarrhea or alternating constipation/diarrhea, weight loss and abdominal pain.
The Immune System: Vitamin B-12 is necessary for normal functioning of white blood cells. Studies show that B-12 helps regulate Natural-Killer T-cells and prevents chromosome damage.
The Cardiovascular System: Vitamin B-12 participates in the conversion of homocysteine to methionine. Elevated homocysteine levels are a known independent risk factor for heart attack, stroke and thrombosis. Without adequate B-12 levels, homocysteine levels typically rise.
Special Senses: Degenerative changes in the central nervous system caused by B-12 deficiency can also affect the optic nerve, resulting in blue-yellow color blindness.
Other symptoms of vitamin B-12 deficiency include sore mouth or tongue.
With so many physical functions at risk, it is easy to understand why knowledgeable clinicians and researchers consider B-12 supplementation beneficial.
Are You At Risk for a Vitamin B-12 Deficiency?
Medical science once believed that few people were vitamin B-12 deficient. This false assumption may stem from the fact that vitamin B-12 is produced in the body by a normal, healthy population of bowel bacteria.
Secondly, unlike other water-soluble vitamins, B-12 is stored in the liver, kidneys and other tissues. Deficiencies of B-12 often appear so slowly and subtly as to go unnoticed, and blood tests for vitamin B-12 levels miss early deficiency states at least 50% of the time.
So, who is at risk for vitamin B-12 deficiency? Recent research shows that a much larger segment of the population is likely deficient than previously thought.
Because assimilation of vitamin B-12 from food requires adequate stomach acid and intrinsic factor, and because stomach acid typically declines with age, people over 50 were once thought to be the biggest ``at risk'' population for B-12 deficiency. Previous studies showed 3% - 39% of seniors to be vitamin B-12 deficient, but newer studies suggest that number may be as high as 72% - 78%.
Vegetarians and vegans are another population believed to be at high risk for B-12 deficiency, in part because of low animal food intake of vitamin B-12 and also because many vegetable sources such as seaweed must be consumed in large amounts in order to provide adequate vitamin B-12.
Other high-risk groups for B-12 deficiency include:
Those who use acid-blocking or neutralizing drugs (such as Prilosec, Prevacid, Nexium and others), or drugs which impair intestinal absorption (such as Metformin, Questron and Chloromycetin), People who have had gastric surgery, And people who have chronic illnesses such as ME/CFS and Fibromyaligia. Bacterial overgrowth of the small intestine, which occurs frequently in people with low stomach acid, is a predisposing factor for B-12 deficiency because the bacteria themselves use vitamin B-12.
The most recent and disturbing studies suggest that vitamin B-12 deficiency is more prevalent in young adults than previously thought. One study found that vitamin B-12 deficiency was similar in three age groups (26-49 years, 50-64 years, and 65 years and older), but that early symptoms were simply less apparent in the young.
This study also found that those who did not take a vitamin B-12 containing supplement were twice as likely to be deficient as supplement users, regardless of age.
Four Forms of B-12 - Which One is Best?
Cobalamin is a collective term for four closely related forms of B-12 - cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin (dibencozide).
Cyanocobalamin, the most common form of B-12 found in nutritional supplements, has the lowest biological activity and must be converted in the liver to methylcobalamin or adenosylcobalamin before it can be utilized.
Because it can be converted to other forms of B-12, cyanocobalamin can be considered the ``mother form'' of B-12. However, this conversion is inefficient and some people may not benefit from cyanocobalamin due to lack of assimilation or conversion.
Methylcobalamin is considered by many researchers to be the most active form of vitamin B-12. It protects the nervous system by regulating glutamate-induced neuronal damage (common in aging) and promoting nerve cell regeneration.
Methylcobalamin is the only form of vitamin B-12 that participates in regulating circadian rhythms (sleep/wake cycles). It has been shown to improve sleep quality and refreshment from sleep, as well as increasing feelings of well-being, concentration and alertness.
Adenosylcobalamin (dibencozide), the second highly active form of vitamin B-12, is essential for energy metabolism. It is required for normal myelin sheath formation and nucleoprotein synthesis. Deficiencies are associated with nerve and spinal cord degeneration.
Hydroxocobalamin is a unique form of B-12 that participates in detoxification, especially cyanide detoxification. Cyanide levels are often elevated in smokers, people who eat cyanide-containing food (like cassava) and those with certain metabolic defects.
Excess cyanide in the tissues blocks conversion of cyanocobalamin to methylcobalamin or adenosylcobalamin. In such instances, hydroxocobalamin may be the vitamin B-12 of choice. Hydroxycobalamin is FDA-approved as a treatment for cyanide poisoning.
Oral Vs. Injectable: Which Delivery System is Preferred?
Although many people including some physicians still believe that injectable vitamin B-12 is the preferred route of administration, it is well-known and widely accepted that oral vitamin B-12 is equally as effective as injection in treating pernicious anemia and other B-12 deficient states.
Conclusions and Recommendations
Vitamin B-12 deficiency is far more widespread than previously thought, with up to 30% of young people affected and possibly as many as 78% of the over 50 population suffering from deficiency.
Those at special risk include:
Seniors, Vegetarians and vegans, People taking acid-neutralizing drugs or various other drugs, and Patients with cognitive impairment and/or chronic illnesses. The U.S. Institute of Medicine recommends that adults over 50 obtain their vitamin B-12 from supplements.
Because symptoms of vitamin B-12 deficiency often manifest months or years before B-12 blood tests become abnormal, early deficiencies are often missed.
Symptoms and side effects of B-12 deficiency are many and varied, can mimic other diseases such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and can produce irreversible changes of the nervous system if not corrected early.
Oral vitamin B-12 supplementation is extremely safe, as effective as injections, comparatively inexpensive, and more convenient than injections.
Those at risk of vitamin B-12 deficiency or with symptoms suggestive of B-12 deficiency should consider adding this important nutrient to their supplement protocol.
[Note: See also "The Vitamin B-12 - ME/CFS/FM Connection" by Myatt and Ziemann. It explains how two biochemical abnormalities heavily involved in the ``unexplained illnesses'' (ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, Multiple Sensitivities, Gulf War Syndrome, PTSD) are both related to forms of vitamin B-12 deficiency. The article explains the role of B-12 in: 1) Dr. Martin Pall's model of a dysregulated Nitric Oxide/Peroxynitrite (``No, Oh No!'') cycle, and 2) dysregulation of the Methylation Cycle.]
____ * Dr. Dana Myatt, NMD, is a practicing naturopathic family physician, educator, author, and speaker with a special interest in nutrition. She lectures widely to medical and lay audiences, and hosts a website (http://www.drmyattswellnessclub.com). Mark Ziemann, RN, Dr. Myatt's husband and collaborator, is also an educator, author, and speaker specializing in holistic nursing practice and patient education.
A footnoted version of this article, including 78 reference citations, will be available soon on Immunesupport.com/
___ Note: This information has not been evaluated by the FDA. It is generic and is not meant to prevent, diagnose, treat, or cure any condition, illness, or disease. It is very important that you make no change in your healthcare plan or health support regimen without researching and discussing it in collaboration with your professional healthcare team.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
sparkle7 Thanks for adding good info!!
I wish I could make everyone see how very important b12 is to the body seeing for me was the very first injection then the studying came.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Up for believe3 good luck!!
Iam doing way way way better!!
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
By the way I have stopped all abx's a couple of months now today is 4/24/08. This is after I did a 16 month straight abx stint. The way I figure every cell in body is suppose to be replaced in that period 16 months. After starting b12 shots i have no aching only by the 4th day do i start to ache thats why I get b12 shot on fourth.
Some people it may take more or less b12.
Some b12 may not be the problem but if you have been on abx's a long time I woulkd bet big money your Intrinsic Factor is bad or severly reduced then I promise b12 shots will help!!!
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Whoops made mistake over past weekend since I havent had any beer for quite sometime . I had some over weekend and ate a big juicy medium rare stake before bedtime . Then woke up with Gout in right knee its right up there with lyme joint pain whewwee!
I bought some blackcherry extract concentrate and took it every 3 or 4 hrs starting saturday through today monday 5/7/08 and knee is feeling quite alot better.
Anyway this extract sure helped. Now I have been having for the last year or so trouble with higher uric acid problems which brings on gout and people on abx's might use this black cherry extract its about $15.00 at GNC.
Pain is almost all gone at 11am today. This may help you guys?
[ 06. May 2008, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
From what I gather if your taking cyanocobalamin instead of methylcobalamin then SAMe is needed because in the process of converting in the body cyanocobalamin to methylcobalamin it depletes same.
Appendix: SAMe Figure 3 shows that S-adenosylmethionine (SAM, aka SAMe) is in the homocysteine-methionine pathway. SAM has been used in the treatment of liver disease, neurological disorders, rheumatoid arthritis,1 and fibromyalgia.2,3 Houston et al.4 noted that SAM is depleted in B12 deficiency. Loehrer et al.1 reported that SAM levels are low in a significant proportion of coronary artery disease patients. Kelly suggests that SAM is involved in converting cyanocobalamin to methylcobalamin.
Loehrer et al.1 showed that 400 mg of SAM (in the form of S-adenosylcobalamin bis(sulfate)-p-toluenesulfonate) taken orally after an overnight fast (with the fast continuing for 6 more hours), caused serum SAM levels to increase substantially, indicating that SAM is absorbed when taken orally. It was well tolerated by all 14 volunteers.
Not enough research has been done to determine whether vegans who have depleted their stores of B12 can benefit from supplementing with SAM in addition to B12. Looking at the biochemical pathways, it would appear that if homocysteine levels are high (which would be expected in B12 deficiency) and folate is adequate, supplementing with B12 would be enough to replenish SAM stores. However, if supplementing with B12 does not resolve symptoms, someone might consider discussing SAM supplementation with their physician.
Notes for SAMe 1. Loehrer FM, Schwab R, Angst CP, Haefeli WE, Fowler B. Influence of oral S-adenosylmethionine on plasma 5-methyltetrahydrofolate, S-adenosylhomocysteine, homocysteine and methionine in healthy humans. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1997 Aug;282(2):845-50. 2. Jacobsen S, Danneskiold-Samsoe B, Andersen RB. Oral S-adenosylmethionine in primary fibromyalgia. Double-blind clinical evaluation. Scand J Rheumatol. 1991;20(4):294-302. 3. Leventhal LJ. Management of fibromyalgia. Ann Intern Med. 1999 Dec 7;131(11):850-8. 4. Houston DK, Johnson MA, Nozza RJ, Gunter EW, Shea KJ, Cutler GM, Edmonds JT. Age-related hearing loss, vitamin B-12, and folate in elderly women. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Mar;69(3):564-71. 5. Kelly G. The co-enzyme forms of vitamin B12: Toward an understanding of their therapeutic potential. Alt Med Rev. 1997;2(5):459-471.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
I feel good not gret yet but good!!! Date: 5/14/2008 I love my b12 shots.
Its to bad everybody thats been on abxs for any length of time do not take this seriously. What a shame. Ill see some of you at the finish line.
Ps I want to thank God and Jesus personaly and Publicly here and now!
Thank you lord and father and holy spirit for helping me see what was missing. And help me to continue to see and know that wisdom and knowledge come from you. And Love for all these people here on lymenet suffering will gain these gifts.
And thank you for the people that here and see.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
I just want to bring this up for people who have bad intrinsic factor or have knocked theres out by extended use of abx's. Get b12 shots ot try high doses of sublingual you will be amazed!!!
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Up for the lymies
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
up
Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
Due to this thread, I started taking sublingual vitamin B 12 about 2 weeks ago.
I definitely am less fatigued and have better mental processing!
Thanks for the great info!!
Best,
Cass A
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Iam glad you were helped !!! I dont understand why there are not more grasping how much the body needs and requires b12?
Glad you were helped.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
I still feel pretty good and off abxs but still on probiotics. Date 7/9/08
Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
I'm curious to know if anyone has tried the "B-12 Extreme" sublingual tablets that have been referenced in this thread.
THE MOST POTENT SINGLE DOSE OF B-12 ON THE MARKET!
ProHealth's founder, Rich Carson, set out to develop the most potent B-12 supplement on the market - and that he did!
B-12 Extreme contains the world's most potent single dose of all four forms of B-12 on the market, including the only two biologically active forms in humans - methylcobalamin and dibencozide.
Low blood levels of vitamin B-12 are frequently associated with fatigue and malaise.
Hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin have also recently gained attention from leading CFS and FM researchers and doctors.
I'd like to know if anyone has tried it. It's about $50 for a one-month supply, and the doses of each component are in the miligram range, not the microgram range of other sub-linguals.
Best,
Cass A
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Me to Cass me too I dont like poking needle in my belly every four days but Iam doing it because it works.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
up Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Get the b12 people it really really HELPS!!!!
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
hi tree,
i haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone tried the patch?
supposed to be better than sublingual and to rival injection; little patch worn behind the earlobe for 24 hr period once a week, at cost of about 25 bucks a month:
The acquisition of resistance by malaria parasites towards existing antimalarials has necessitated the development of new chemotherapeutic agents. The effect of vitamin B(12) derivatives on the formation of beta-haematin (synthetic haemozoin) was determined under conditions similar to those in the parasitic food vacuole (using chloroquine, a known inhibitor of haemozoin formation for comparison). Adenosylcobalamin (Ado-cbl), methylcobalamin (CH(3)-cbl) and aquocobalamin (H(2)O-cbl) were approximately forty times more effective inhibitors of beta-haematin formation than chloroquine, cyanocobalamin (CN-cbl) was slightly more inhibitory than chloroquine, while dicyanocobinamide had no effect.
It is proposed that the cobalamins exert their inhibitory effect on beta-haematin formation by pi-interactions of their corrin ring with the Fe(III)-protoporphyrin ring and by hydrogen-bonding using their 5,6-dimethylbenzimidazole/ribose/sugar side-chain. The antimalarial activity for the cobalamins (Ado-cbl>CH(3)-cbl>H(2)O-cbl>CN-cbl) was found to be less than that for chloroquine or quinine. Ado-cbl, CH(3)-cbl and CN-cbl do not accumulate in the parasite food vacuole by pH trapping, but H(2)O-cbl does.
Unlike humans, the malaria parasite has only one enzyme that uses cobalamin as a cofactor, namely methionine synthase, which is important for growth and metabolism. Thus cobalamins in very small amounts are necessary for Plasmodium falciparum growth but in larger amounts they display antimalarial properties.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
For people who have been on abx's for 2 or more years even 5 or 6 like me. I suggest you get some b12 shots your intrinsic factor may be shot like mine. Get a shot at your LLMDs next time and watch for changes. I know the aching dropped way down in me in a about 2 hrs. Enough that I knew this was causing alot of my problems. Give it a try please! I have been off abxs since march 08
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
up
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
I'm curious to know if anyone has tried the "B-12 Extreme" sublingual tablets that have been referenced in this thread.
THE MOST POTENT SINGLE DOSE OF B-12 ON THE MARKET!
ProHealth's founder, Rich Carson, set out to develop the most potent B-12 supplement on the market - and that he did!
B-12 Extreme contains the world's most potent single dose of all four forms of B-12 on the market, including the only two biologically active forms in humans - methylcobalamin and dibencozide.
Low blood levels of vitamin B-12 are frequently associated with fatigue and malaise.
Hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin have also recently gained attention from leading CFS and FM researchers and doctors.
I'd like to know if anyone has tried it. It's about $50 for a one-month supply, and the doses of each component are in the miligram range, not the microgram range of other sub-linguals.
Best,
Cass A
Anyone try these? Posted by Fordace (Member # 14874) on :
Bump bump........I think I'll try these B-12's....
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
OMG that's a lot of B-12! Very interesting. I'm looking forward to comments as well.
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
If you have been on abxs for any time after 3 or four months I highly recommend a b12 shot. At least once a month while treating. B12 defficiency causes a lot of symptoms that are very Lyme Like!!
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
upcy daisy
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Posted by kateaton (Member # 24871) on :
Does anyone know the significance of high serum B-12 levels?
My 4 y.o. daughter was tested recently and they came back "sky high" I had them follow-up with a urine methyl malonic acid test, but that came back normal. I still keep thinking that there is some significance to those blood results.
I had heard somewhere that high serum levels can actually mean that it's not getting into the cells. I had her tested because of the dark circles under her eyes and read somewhere of a connection. She also has celiac disease, but she doesn't have any of the other symptoms that were listed for low b12.
Posted by f13girl (Member # 23844) on :
I've been prescribed methycobalmine b12 shots-1000mg/day-does that make sense? does anyone know of a good US source with no chemicals/additives in shotss?
Posted by kateaton (Member # 24871) on :
up
Posted by Remember to Smile (Member # 25481) on :
treepatrol, this is an excellent thread. Thanks for putting together all this info! Smile
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