quote:

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Originally posted by SForsgren:
According to information presented at the ILADS conferece in Boston by Dr. R. H., the Cowden Protocol was moderately effective in about 70% of people and he promotes it as a very good option for people coming off of antibiotics to prevent a relapse.

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This is true .... he told me this himself. For this reason, I have started on the Cowden herbs as many of my symptoms are gone and at some point we are switching over entirely.

He has seen many people who were previously unable to get off abx without relapsing do very well on Cowden. Some are feeling the best they have ever felt.
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
I started on cumanda and burbur last July working with a naturopath doctor I met online while ordering cumanda. I was diagnosed with remitting/relapsing CFS for the last 7 years, and my CFS doc told me it was viral. I was looking for a viral killer.

Well, the naturopath was a lyme survivor, and got me thinking about Lyme. I started the cumanda and herxed on it. It took me 3 months to reach a therapeutic dose of 15 drops/twice daily taking burbur which helped somewhat. Scott F, our better health guy, and Derek Clontz were also very helpful in sharing their experiences. I spoke with Linda Lobes from the Michigan Lyme Assn., and ordered a western blot for Lyme from Igenex. I made an appt. with a Midwest Lyme specialist. My test came back positive for Lyme!

Dr. C put me on different abx with mixed results. Doxycycline is the only one I could tolerate, and I gained 10% in a month. I still have a ways to go. I'm still on cumanda and burbur which I think are helpful with antifungal issues and detoxing.

I now think that those who use both ABX and Cowden's protocol have the best success. Maybe it's possible to have remissions with either one. I had two previous remissions without either. But this disease is progressive and each relapse hits harder. I need more help for my immune system to fight the infections now.

Now functioning at 70% on my best days.

CherylSue
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Thanks for your replies, guys!

I'm about to start with a limited Cowden protocol. I'm going to pick up the supplements tomorrow. I'm going along with my doctor - so, I'm not doing it as standard package from Nutrimedix. I don't think my doctor will be doing the "energetic" part such as muscle testing, etc. He's a good doctor & I like him, though.

I haven't ruled out abx but after doing them for about 8 months I didn't have any improvement. I know some people say it takes time but I just felt it wasn't right for me. I don't like the idea of endless abx. I think it can cause damage to the immune system & the gut. Not everyone who does long, continuous abx gets well, either. They get relapses, too.

I've been constantly in pain for about 10 years. I didn't have periods of time where I felt better & worse even though I didn't know I had Lyme. I see some people go through ups & downs when they don't know that have Lyme but that didn't happen with me.

I'm not against going back to "pulse" the abx but I just don't want to do a continuous run with them. It seems we are all different & we all handle the remedies differently. I know herbs are powerful - that's why I feel they can be curative (as best as possible) with this awful illness.

I'm not sure if anyone with a long term exposure can get back to being 100%. I would settle for 70% (or higher if it's possible). I'm sure if you asked some of the "alternative" doctors out there they would have had some good results with their therapies. I'm sure it's possible to get better without abx - especially, since so many people don't do all that well with them.

There was a long period of time where people thought it was healthy to smoke cigarettes. Doctor's actually recommended them to people with no bad "side effects". So, it takes some time to see if things can be dangerous or just not all that healthy. It's a big experiment with the abx since there are so many conflicting studies. And I don't only mean ILADS vs. Steere, et al.

I guess I'll find out. I'll let you know of my progress.
 

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Posted by Aniek (Member # 5374) on :
 
I'm probably starting Cowden soon. I've had to stop abx because of a problem with either my pancreas or liver. Possibly caused by Ketek.

I've learned my lesson from Ketek to be cautious with both new medications and new alternative protocols.

I've chosen Cowden because many of the herbs have had safety studies done, while a more aggressive alternative treatment my LLMD recommended has not been studied.
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
Any more people trying at least a modified Cowden protocol?
 

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Posted by savebabe (Member # 9847) on :
 
I have been on the limited C protocol since October and I feel that it helps, but it does not cure.
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
Sarah, perhaps you don't see those cases because they don't come to the support groups. Those who are using energy medicine, herbs, homeopathy, probably never end up at your support group.

I told you Marc Halperin, head of the California College of Ayurvedic Medicine, completely cured his lyme through energy medicine and ayurveda. You were going to invite him to speak at your group weren't you?

You're not looking for those cases. They're also not coming to you. Yes most people can tolerate and do well with abx but then again look at the recent thread where each person says a different abx helped them really get better. What kind of bug is it then? Who knows what the heck is going on if such a wide range of abx, most don't help one person, then one does--but there's no consistency in the reports. And then are those who (sadly) like cave76 reports relapsing now. There are those who can't get off abx.

I'm lurking on a big homeopathy yahoo group. I went through with a search on "lyme" and also "syphilinum" a remedy. Several on there cured their own lyme with homeopathy. They almost say it in passing, since it's just a piece of a bigger picture for them.

Also, Sarah, you must consider that though you want to be supportive to all, when you use the opportunity on any thread to post so emphatically about your eight years in a support group and never having seen a remission without longterm abx (casting doubt by implication on remissions you might not have seen) you discourage anybody who can't take longterm abx, and there are some of us on here. You may protest, "But that's the truth." But again you aren't looking for the others. They do exist. They are fewer in number. I believe you could temper what you say and still help people.
 

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Posted by minoucat (Member # 5175) on :
 
duplicate

[ 07. January 2008, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: minoucat ]
 

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Posted by minoucat (Member # 5175) on :
 
I dunno how well it's going for me yet - time will tell -- but I started on Cowden 4 months ago after long, long term tx for LD/Co.

With abx I seem to have definitely gotten rid of babs and probably bart, and I still have LD but with vastly reduced sx. Main continuing problems are extreme fatigue (mental and physical).

I had an extremely hard time with Cowden for the first 3 months, which my LLMD says is typical in his experience. I became extremely weak and brainfogged.

After quitting the Adrenal support and making some minor changes in the protocol I started improving somewhat after the 3rd month. Dunno at this point if I'm actually getting healthier than I was before I started Cowden or just regaining lost ground.

The Adrenal Support was a very big problem for me, because of the wild yam (an estrogenic). I substituted dry herbs (same as in AS) and liquid ginseng. Samento made me extremely sore and cranky, so I switch it off every 2 weeks with banderol and quina.

I experienced a lot of irritability on Cowden -- anyone else?

I have a couple of friends who had epic crashes on Cowden within the first month, apparently from adrenal exhaustion. I know one woman doing the full Cowden, laser detox and all, and if that turns out well I'll let y'all know. So far -- not so good.

I expect LD will always be with me, so I'm looking for ways to manage it effectively, affordably, and on my own. I'm really hopeful that Cowden will be part of that -- my LLMD said he's seen some very good things after 6 months of Cowden for some of his patients. I also just started using Rife.

OBabe, what yahoo group for homeopathy?

[ 08. January 2008, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: minoucat ]
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
Before I knew for sure I had Lyme, I started on Cumanda/burbur in July. I also tried Pinella, parsley, and adrenal support at times. I didn't think they were helpful for me, but stuck with the cumanda and burbur.

It took me 3 months, herxing all the way, to build up to 15 drops of cumanda/twice daily. I have gone up to twenty drops, but dropped to 17/2x daily because it is the most comfortable.

I think the cumanda helps with yeast and UTI's. I don't seem to have those problems, knock on wood. It kept me in a steady state without relapsing. I've been on the therapeutic dose of cumanda for 3 months.

However, 3 months ago I started amoxicillin, but backed down because of the herxing. I've been on doxycycline for a month and that has helped me move forward 10%.

Right now I'm on cumanda/burbur and doxycycline. I find both give me a temporary boost an hour after I take them. I look forward to taking my "meds" now.

Just my experience,
CherylSue
 

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Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :
 
Since you asked....and some will not like my opinion on this...

Yes I did cowden for over a month while on abx. I even doubled the dose of some of the lyme specific herbs (cumanda and samento) (PS. samento has had published accounts that say in vitro it PROMOTES lyme replication). Even with double dose right from the beginning no reaction or effect what so ever. The periodic flare ups are/were as bad as ever.

In a quest for practicle knwledge I talked to some older pharmasists about the whole herbal thing. They commonly used herbs years ago when the new drugs where not around, in fact that had rooms full of tinctures that they could use and mix as needed. Their take on the "herx" reaction thing is that the herbs cause an unwanted side effect and that slowly ramping the dose aclimitizes the person to the herb. This was apparently a very common problem years ago and the ramp up is how the problem was dealt with. In other words, the herbs did not create the symtoms due to killing of the bacteria, rahter it was the herb its self that caused the reaction independant of desirable effects of the herb.

I have also talked to several people with active lyme (refractory, regularly recurrent flare ups) for which the cowden herbs did nothing. Maybe these are the "30%" that do not see a moderate effect.

As you can tell I am scepticle about the efficacy of herbs, still I tried it because it was said to work. I woudl suggest that anything that has the potential to work be tried but I have doubt's about the glowing reports from some.

In all of this herbal stuff what concerns me is that if it works so well, why doesn't someone find out exactly what it is in the herbs that works, purify it and/or synthesize it so as to gain maximum potency and rfemover teh siode effects. There are certainly enough people for a reasonable market for such a product???

It was done with wormwoood for malaria, why not the other stuff for lyme???

I also recognize that the cowden protocoal is being promoted as a long term solution to staying off of abx. I question this concept since there are a number of infections that require lifelong abx in order to keep them in check. Lyme and its co-infectiosn may be no different. The long term effect of some abx are well known and documented whereas the long term effect of herbs is not. There are pubished accounts of herbs causing various long term complications as well as symdromes (even CFS like disease) and in general these are not well studied or understood. It is not even known if these side effects come from the compounds in the herbs themselves or some virus or other contamination acquired during processing.

I would say try it but beware that just because it is "natural" that it does not mean that it is safe or effective. (lyme bacteria is a "natural" organism as are all the other infectious diseases... even ebola!)

On a slightly different note, here is something to think about.
In dealing with lyme, one needs to remeber that the bateria becomes entrenched as a result of slow adaptation to its environment. It basically tunes its self to co-exist in the host along with the host defenses. (sort of like cancer). If the biochemical environment is modified for any length of time, the organism might see this change and continue adpatation to this abnormal environment. A good example is the effect that some Dr's have seen with exercise, weightloss and lyme. To loose weight you need to burn fat. When you burn fat ketones are produced. If you do this for a while (several lyme replication cycles) the bacteria may very well see the ketones in the blood environment and have different plasmids activated as a result. These changes could conceivably make the bacteria more visible to the immune system resulting in additional clearing of the bug above and beyond what was accomplished by the abx.

I mention this becuase it might explain the reason that the salt C or vit C infusion sometimes has a benificial effect. The doses are high enough to cause the blood chemistry to change....


Of course all of this is fantasy as it is by no means proven, but it is something to think about.
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
Minou: it is a yahoo group called "minitus".

I have to say...I didn't think much of homeopathy at all until I did high potency tissue sarcodes last May-about mid-late July. He had an unusual regimen, with extremely high ie dilute potencies (10MM) of various tissues. I was sure I was taking expensive water when I brought them home. Well, they were far more than that. One drop would go through my whole system like a bad bad flu, within about 30 seconds of taking it. He'd have me taking them every hour or even half hour for a few days. Supposedly every organ in your body would then dump its toxins and as long as you took the next tissue sarcode in time, that organ would dump so nothing would get backed up and it would all leave the system.

Nice thought and I know people he has helped but that wasn't the case with me, I just got really weakened, felt horrible, couldn't get out of bed sometimes, and felt like a bad flu. So I finally stopped them.

However, it was kind of like someone had bonked me over the head from on high. It was like: You didn't believe in homeopathy, eh? Well do you now?

So, yes I do, I studied a bit, I think I can see a mechanism whereby it might work. Yes, I do. They call it "ultradilution physics." There has also been interesting research on water recently and its properties.

So now I really think homeopathy could work, I've been reading up a bit. However, for classical homeopathy to work, you have to find the right remedy and there you have the proverbial needle in the haystack, where you really have to get the right practitioner for YOU, to take your case properly.

So I haven't found anybody who, in reading about them, seems to be right for me. I did make an appt with one but cancelled it and sure I did the right thing.

I did buy this cool book by Philip Bailey, on constitutional remedies and their types. This is when I became interested in syphilinum----that's a "nosode" or constiutional remedy made from syphilis. Bailey's description resonated with me, and I could see how, if I inherited a syphilitic miasm that, by the time I got lyme, which is not unrelated, I would have a much worse case.

And how do you inherit a miasm? I can see a mechanism for that too. They talk about the "spirit of the gametes" changing. Well I've been doing some research into epigenetic changes produced by hormone exposure in the womb. And yes, if the mom is exposed to excess hormones (as in plastics or pesticides) while pregnant, the baby not only is permanently shifted, its own eggs and sperm are changed, and mutations occur more often in them. So the child of the child of the mom will be affected.

So there are places science and "woo woo" converge.

Sorry for this rambling post.

All I really mean by it, is, I think homeopathy could cure lyme IF its the right remedies, but that might be like falling in love . You might meet him, you might not. You might find your remedy or you might end up hanging out with a bunch of useless remedies, or you might get one that's close, but just not quite right.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Hi David1097 -

you wrote - "The long term effect of some abx are well known and documented whereas the long term effect of herbs is not."

Is this really the case? Do we really know what large quantities of combinations of abx will do over a long period of time?

I'm about to start the Cowden protocol. If what you say is true about the body becoming acclamated to Lyme... then, why not just switch to another protocol? There's the Bruner's protocol & the Zhang... I'm sure they are plenty to choose from. Maybe we just have to keep switching things up? At least with the herbs we can modify the dosage without seemingly causing something to mutate. Isn't that what happens when you stop abx before they actually work? Maybe I'm not wording it accurately - I'm not a scientist. I just don't think long term abx are safe for a number of reasons - especially if they don't really work in the first place.

It could be due to the fact that (I believe) Lyme is a bio-engineered organism & there are many strains as to why very few things actually work on chronic Lyme.

If I'm going to be on something for a long time, I'd prefer to be on herbal remedies rather than drugs. Just my preference. From what I can see (just from the postings here on this message board) - the abx just don't work.

(Please don't take this as a personal attack - it's just my own opinion. We all have to find out what works on an individual basis.)
 

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Posted by Rianna (Member # 11038) on :
 
Perhaps take a look at the numerous articles on the samento Science library

http://www.samento.com.ec/sciencelib/sammain.html

Science library Burbur Detox
http://www.bionatus.com/nutramedix/pages/moreinfo_burbur.html


Science library for Cumanda

http://www.bionatus.com/nutramedix/pages/moreinfo_cumanda.html

Rianna

[ 08. January 2008, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Rianna ]
 

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Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :
 
Hi,
A bit of history on where I am coming from(since I have no friggin idea where I am going to end up, all I can do is look back) ....

I have been dealing with the problem of why don't abx provide a solution for a long time. For me they do work but not 100% and only while I take them. Relapse has occured several times.

If you do a search for leporosy, whipples disease and TB these are but a few examples of infectiosn that sometimes need very long term ABX, sometimes for life. A lot of effort has been expended in trying to find lower cost (ie herbal) alternative to the abx but none have been found.

Part of the problem with the ineffectiveness of abx may be due to co-infections. There are a large number of other infections that can cause lyme like symptoms, indeed there are many conditions that look like lyme that are not even infectious in nature. On top of that there are viruses (which are very difficult to treat) as well as parasites (micro filia as well as ptotozoans etc) that are extremely hard to detect and may also be residing in the body as either a asymtomatic or symtomatic-latent infection. These, when combined with lyme can cause all sorts of problems that normally, with out lyme being present would not even be noticable.

One also needs to realize that some of the other "self limiting" infections are carried by things other than ticks... mosquitoes carrying microfilia for example. As a result of all of this, the more difficult cases of "lyme" could very well be the result of a combination of infections that normally go unseen. Some of these do not respond to antibiotics or only respond to certain ones... odd ones that never get used. It is also interesting that many difficult to treat infections are now adays responding to the very old antibiotics like penicillan. This would tend to make one think that if multiple infections are present, they have evoloved after being exposed to the newer antibiotics that are in everyday use withthe diseases being acquired from person to person by some insect vector (ie louse, bed bugs, biting flies etc).

One needs to rememebr that abx will not kill every bad bacteria in the body. It will only knock them down to a level at which the immune system, can take over. The problem with lyme is of course that the lyme adjusts its self to be minimnally detectable by the immune system, thus the likelyhood of relapse.

It is also interesting that bacteria will take on different forms dependant on which host they have been in. This is seen quite clearly in bartonella, for which different strains are found in different animals, and the strns switch ater entering the host. Lyme is the same and in many ways even more prone to change due tot he large number of plasmids that are avaialble. In this regard, it has been reported that in-vitro grown lyme changes with slightly different growth media as well as incubation temperature. It is noteworthy that most of the lyme research is done on "fresh" lyme... lyme that has not had a chance to modify itself to any significant degree... even the reagents for testing are made with thie fresh culture drown stuff. This might be one of the reasons that the tests are so crappy for long term infections.

On the bio-engineered theory... a couple of comments as this is one area that I am a bit familar with. I would only hope that someone was smart enough to build a bacteria like lyme. As far as I know, it is many decades ahead of even current technology, let alone being able to be developed back in the 60's and 70's. I do think that it is quite possible that it escaped from a lab facility that was studying it as an import from someplace but I really have my doubts about it being man made. Still anything is possible.

These aren't fighting words,I'm just making some comments for discussion.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
I guess for me the situation is - is that I tried the abx for 8 months in different combos. I didn't get any better. I went through some herxing but with no particular improvement. Some may say that I didn't stick with it long enough but I just didn't feel like it was going to be effective for me.

I just started the limited Cowden protocol today. I took 1 drop of the Cumunda & I can feel it. That's some strong stuff! I asked my doctor when I went to pick up the herbs & he said that he didn't feel it was necessary to continue with the abx if I was doing the Cowden herbs.

I feel it's just a question of what one feels more comfortable with. There is evidence that the herbs produce an improvement. There have been studies done with the Cowden protocol. My doctor even saw the data - that's why he feels comfortable going along with the protocol. Abx don't really have alot of data that they are effective for the long haul. If it's a situation of herbs vs. abx... I'll go with the herbs for now. I'll let everyone know how it's going for me.

Here's a good article on the Cowden protocol -
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_285/ai_n19170373
 

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Posted by lucy96734 (Member # 8372) on :
 
I was sick for over 5 years before I found out I had Lyme. I was told Fibro, degenerative disc disease, possible MS, possible Lupus or RA but just bounced around collecting prescriptions and symptoms.

I did 22 months of various oral abx + 7 months of Mepron before starting Cowden.

When I started Cowden I was about 90-95%. I felt really good all but 3-5 days out of the month.

I did not notice any herx reaction and was able to follow the protocol as written.

I never had a herx with abx except with Bicillin injections so lack of herx didn't really mean much for me. I've just gotten better over time for the most part.

I am now in the 4th month of Cowden and am off all abx.

I feel great. I have some pain but it is occasional and seems more situational/reactionary rather than just out of the blue. If I overdo it, if I sleep on an airplane, etc I know my back will act up.

I doubt that my back will ever be normal, I've seen the MRIs and there are many blown or black dics.

I am planning to finish the next 2 months and then try to just live my life.

Lucy
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
That sounds good Lucy! So, do you attribute the most success to the abx or Cowden? It seems like you were pretty much better from the abx alone without doing the Cowden protocol.
 

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Posted by lucy96734 (Member # 8372) on :
 
Good question. I was pretty much better before starting Cowden )although I kept having a few bad days each month. The month before starting Cowden I had a few of the worst since before I started treatment, that was so frustrating) and I continued abx (omnicef, zith and bicillin) for the first 2 months of Cowden. It has only been the last month that I have been on herbs alone.

I've been pleased that if anything I am doing better and better since stopping abx. The real test for me was my last menstrual cycle because my flares of symptoms have always been during that time. I was fine, it was really amazing to not need to spend at least a day or two in bed.

It is hard for me to point to one thing in this whole process that has been "it" other than my LLMD. I am forever thanful that I found a LLMD who I could put my trust in.

I have my life back.

2 years ago (my anniversary was 12/28) I was considering disability. I was on heavy narcotics as well as 5-6 other medications just to try to manage symptoms. I was going downhill and miserable.

Today I did a Firm (kick butt exercise dvd), went to work for a full day, and entertained visitors from out of town with my family. I feel great.

This is after flying home from CA yesterday and unpacking and getting the house back in order after being away for 2 weeks.

None of the above would have been possible for me before treatment.

I think the herbs are helping "mop up" or at least build up my immune system. My LLMD said that he has found Cowden to be very helpful for people coming off abx, it seems to prevent relapse.

It sure would be nice if there were a one size fits all answer out there :-)
 

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Posted by Squeegee (Member # 7219) on :
 
My experience with getting better has been that the abx regimens took about two and a half years to get to the point of even trying the Cowden protocol.

Just getting off abx made me feel better but not great. I still lacked energy.

I had two weeks (5x a week) of vitamin B12 (methylcobalamin) shots before starting the Cowden and they helped. Not that much with my energy level but they got rid of the neuropathy. I had a total of 9 weeks of the shots.

It took 6 weeks of being on the Cowden before I really felt a difference. And now, 4 months into it, I have a lot more energy and feel more clear headed than I have in years.

I don't think I could have gotten to this point without the abx. And I don't think I could have gotten to this point without the Cowden.

I am not totally symptom free and I doubt I ever will be due to the many years (at least 30) of undiagnosed Lyme & co.

But I am able to have an almost "normal" life and I am so greatful to my LLMD & online support groups like Lymenet (and everyone here for their input.)
 

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Posted by marcelle (Member # 13815) on :
 
I am on my fifth day of the complete Cowden Protocol; I am hopeful.

I also am incorporating some supplements, blood type diet, detox, etc. Eliminating table sugar, dextrose, corn syrup, etc. has helped a lot.

Interested in hearing more from others who have had positive experiences with Cowden Protocol. And will try to post my progress.

Appreciate all of the supportive suggestions/comments.

I am follwing my gut, the inner-voice, God, or whatever one might choose to call it.

Cowden Protocol feels right at this moment in time for me - and hope is always good.
 

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Posted by marcelle (Member # 13815) on :
 
I am on my fifth day of the complete Cowden Protocol; I am hopeful.

I also am incorporating some supplements, blood type diet, detox, etc. Eliminating table sugar, dextrose, corn syrup, etc. has helped a lot.

Interested in hearing more from others who have had positive experiences with Cowden Protocol. And will try to post my progress.

Appreciate all of the supportive suggestions/comments.

I am follwing my gut, the inner-voice, God, or whatever one might choose to call it.

Cowden Protocol feels right at this moment in time for me - and hope is always good.
 

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Posted by Chia Pet (Member # 12399) on :
 
I've been on Cowden going on my 8th month now.

In addition to the Cowden I have been on Malarone for 4 months, some plaquenil for about a month.(which my LLMD stopped) 2 weeks ago, I added Zhangs artemisian.

I've been using the whole Cowden with the exception of algas due to possible iodine allergy. I also started with the full dose of samento for 2 months, then had to cut to half, 10 drops and work up. I have never gotten higher than 13 drops since.

For some reason sometimes the Quina would help me more than Cumanda probably because it may target Babs?

My LLMD decided to try something new. he told me to take the Quina for a full month vs. the 14 days on the protocol, and try Banderol for 30 days.
I am not sure what happened, but after 18 days of Banderol at 60 drops per protocol, my symptoms had exacerbated gradually so badly to the point of intolerable. I stopped and resumed the Quina for 15 days and the symptoms did not get any better.
I just resumed Cumanda again after my 36 hr reprieve.

I did read somewhere that Banderol targets Bartonella, so now I am confused as to what actually is going on. My symptoms are so severe and mainly neuro I believe. My whole chest is so tight and my whole face is stiff. Burning pain and joint pain all over that just comes and goes quickly like a stab. My lymph nodes are always working and I can feel the pain in them.

I have an appointment with LLMD in a week. I am wondering if the Banderol stirred something up or I just plain ole got worse or is it the Art?

During the time on Banderol, I had to ramp up significantly on Burbur and amantilla to calm down. There have been times when I felt toxic and took Burbur and it helped.

The Pinella also helps significantly. I haven't been on any trace minerals for a couple of months, but I do think they may have helped. My LLMD says he doesn't see any siggy benefit to them.

I do have a prescription for Mepron and Zith in my possession should I wish to try it since I had a really horrible babs herx that landed me in the ER. extremely low blood pressure, fever, woke up soaking wet.

I also do not test POS for Babs or Bart. I have tested POS for Babs 7 years ago, was treated and thought I was rid of. Apparently not.

As for antibiotics vs. the herbs, I do have to say that I think the herbs pack a punch. It's nice to have gotten rid of yeast that for some reason with my relapse has been a real nuisance vs. before relapse.

I do have concerns that long term use of these herbs have not been studied in more depth, but I do feel that they are probably less harmful than long term antibiotics.
 

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Posted by Areneli (Member # 6740) on :
 
Can anyone describe Cowden protocol or provide a link to such a description?
 

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Posted by ldfighter (Member # 9405) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Areneli:
Can anyone describe Cowden protocol or provide a link to such a description?

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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_285/ai_n19170373/pg_1

(keep scrolling past ad, there are additional pages)
 

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Posted by Areneli (Member # 6740) on :
 
Righ, I have seen it.

I was rather looking for a more specific description and doses, if available.
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
Good thread. Keep it going.
 

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Posted by lucy96734 (Member # 8372) on :
 
This is the description I started with
http://www.bionatus.com/nutramedix/pdfs/L-Protocol-cowden.pdf

I then got a dose by dose calendar with my herbs, that really helped!
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
The Feb 1 issue of the PHA will have a several page article written about Dr. C and the protocol and his approaches. It will also be available as a preview article at the Lyme event in FL next week.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Good news! I was taken off most abx/meds and switched to full-Cowden!!! Dr. said that because I had been in the 90-95% range for a couple months, that we could switch over.

I'm on Mino (100 2X per day), Plaquenil, and Lariam plus Full Cowden. I think the idea is to later drop the rest of the meds, but I was on so many we didn't drop them all.

He added in some thyroid support and adrenal support. Most of my remaining symptoms could be from being in the low normal range of those.

Also, he's using grapefruit seed extract now for cyst busting to eliminate how bad I feel on Tindamax.

He has me taking daily saunas as well. He said I could use glutathione cream during the flare-ups. We're focusing on detox.

Full-Cowden also includes diet -- no dairy, corn, soy or peanuts.

I'll keep you posted on how it goes. He said that though ILADS says two months symptom-free, that with Cowden available, it doesn't make sense to keep up the big attack with heavy abx once the bulk of the bacteria is gone, that is why he's switching people over.

I'll keep you posted. We're observing my reaction for a month, then we're reevaluate whether this was the right move.
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
The full Cowden protocol involves a lot of herbs being mixed that have never been tested together for safety. He has renamed some of the Amazon herbs and I have always wondered why he did that unless it was for marketing purposes.

I guess one could also worry like that about Buhner protocol (mixing herbs) although some of those have a known tradition for spirochetes (such as andrographis). Cowden is affiliated with nutrimedix which markets the herbs and so it makes the whole thing murkier than Buhner who is totally uninvolved with the sourcing of the herbs and does not rename them or make money off them.

Does anyone know anything about the safety profile of Cowden herbs, esp when mixed together, and what they were used for originally? I remember researching a little before, for instance, he calls his brand of cat's claw "samento" and everyone talks about it like it's something new. TOA free cat's claw is likely just a marketing ploy. Not to say samento doesn't help some ie cat's claw. The other herbs are renamed also.

It has made me reluctant to try it although I heard good results from some who have.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
My LLMD did a study on it with 400 of his patients. It's not a published study as far as I know, but he was telling me about it yesterday. He found that people on full-Cowden did better than people on limited, but people on both protocols did great.

I know 400 people isn't a long history, but it sure seems promising.

Cowden also lists which herbs can be taken together and which can't. I don't know how they determined this.

Also, my LLMD did not mention anything about people having adverse reactions .... don't know if that means no one did, but he seems to consider it safer to go after the remaining bacteria with herbs than to keep bombing them with high-dose abx.
 

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Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
 
All I really mean by it, is, I think homeopathy could cure lyme IF its the right remedies, but that might be like falling in love . You might meet him, you might not. You might find your remedy or you might end up hanging out with a bunch of useless remedies, or you might get one that's close, but just not quite right.

Kind of like antibiotics.

Luvs
 

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Posted by ctlyme (Member # 9022) on :
 
i read somewhere that there is a double bling study w/ Cowden herbs going on in the Netherlands i think.The results were to be complete in February'08
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
I am not saying it is so and please don't take this wrong but, not knowing who your LLMD is, that he put 400 patients on it makes me wonder if he is getting a kickback. More of this goes on in mainstream and alt med than you can imagine. Also an unpublished "survey" of 400 patients seems so unverifiable to me what can I do about it. I know you mean well with your info and as I said I have heard of a few people doing well on the protocol. I just don't like that the herbs were renamed, as if for proprietary use and to make $ and for marketing, and that there is no explanation of safety info for them etc.

Why would he put 400 patients on it, that is far from standard of care for an M.D...I'm not saying he's wrong, he may be perfectly sincere and getting no kickback at all, but it just seems questionable to me.

Whereas at least from my perspective Buhner is a lifetime herbalist, treated his own hep C with herbs, and makes no money off the herbs and they have a long history in Chinese med, many of them.

However there are side effects from any herb for some folks.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Maybe just maybe he put 400 people on it because it worked. I find Dr. H to be very upstanding and I actually don't think that he does make any singificant money. I know he sells the herbs to his own patients at a cost low enough that it probably doesn't pay for the staff time to deal with it.
 

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Posted by minoucat (Member # 5175) on :
 
Obabe, although I'm trying the protocol I share your concerns.

But since I'm not downhill skiing any more, I need SOME risk in my life...

I dislike the lack of available research and the gratuitous name changing ("amantilla" for valerian and "babuna" for chamomile) -- aside from this appearing to be an attempt to charge high prices for commonly, cheaply available herbs, anyone with allergies to these herbs would have a nasty surprise if they didn't read the label very, very carefully.

And I'll say again -- I think incorporating Wild Yam into the Adrenal Support formula for general use is a bad, even irresponsible, idea given the estrogeic effects of wild yam and the hormonal upset LD causes.

Nutramedix has a "research" page but it doesn't go anywhere. Everything I know about the Cowden protocol herbs I've found out from other sources. I've emailed them asking for info and am awaiting a reply.

They were very prompt in providing me with the exact formulation of the Trace Minerals, so I have hopes.

My LLMD said he is also getting good results from the protocol, although he's approaching it very cautiously and has had at least 2 patients that I know of do really badly on it.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
My LLMD sells the Cowden herbs, so you might think that he's making money off it .... however, he is open that he sells them at 10% above his cost, so it's cheaper than buying them directly from Nutramedix. He does that to make it more affordable for his patients.

My LLMD is genuinely into caring for my health .... he's not trying to make me a "lifetime" patient, he's trying to get rid of me! He even told me I probably won't have to travel up there anymore since I'm off hard-core abx. He's not trying to milk me for every penny I have .... you can tell when someone is.

I went from bedridden to back to normal in ONE YEAR. I don't doubt the integrity of my LLMD. If he were in it for the money, he certainly would NOT be treating Lyme!

You are free to be a skeptic, but just because someone is making money off this does not mean it is not a good protocol. My LLMD almost lost his license for treating Lyme as he thinks it should be treated ... I respect him and hope he is making a few dollars off me ... I literally owe him my life.

I LIKE that I can buy all the Cowden herbs in one place from one supplier. I LIKE that it's a Lyme doc actively treating Lyme patients who has come up with the protocol. I HOPE he's making some money off it because he deserves to!

I would never use the Buhner herbs because it just seems so complicated looking for all the various herbs from various suppliers. I'd rather think that Cowden (and my LLMD) are just trying to make things easier for us, not that they are just in it for a buck ... not that they aren't making any money, after all, isn't that why we work.

The money argument just isn't going to persuade me at all. Everything we do to treat Lyme is experimental, whether it be Cowden, Buhner, long-term abx, HBOT, sauna, etc. And, none of the LLMD's are free.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SForsgren:
Maybe just maybe he put 400 people on it because it worked.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by minoucat:
Obabe, although I'm trying the protocol I share your concerns.

But since I'm not downhill skiing any more, I need SOME risk in my life...

I dislike the lack of available research and the gratuitous name changing ("amantilla" for valerian and "babuna" for chamomile) -- aside from this appearing to be an attempt to charge high prices for commonly, cheaply available herbs, anyone with allergies to these herbs would have a nasty surprise if they didn't read the label very, very carefully.

And I'll say again -- I think incorporating Wild Yam into the Adrenal Support formula for general use is a bad, even irresponsible, idea given the estrogeic effects of wild yam and the hormonal upset LD causes.

Nutramedix has a "research" page but it doesn't go anywhere. Everything I know about the Cowden protocol herbs I've found out from other sources. I've emailed them asking for info and am awaiting a reply.

They were very prompt in providing me with the exact formulation of the Trace Minerals, so I have hopes.

My LLMD said he is also getting good results from the protocol, although he's approaching it very cautiously and has had at least 2 patients that I know of do really badly on it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oxygenbabe:

Goofy, please don't be so defensive. I'm not trying to "convince you" anyway. I'm raising legit questions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SForsgren:
Maybe just maybe he put 400 people on it because it worked. I find Dr. H to be very upstanding and I actually don't think that he does make any singificant money. I know he sells the herbs to his own patients at a cost low enough that it probably doesn't pay for the staff time to deal with it.

---

I agree. I have been a long time patient of Dr. H and he took my health insurance as long as he could. I don't believe Dr. H makes any profit from the herbs.

As far as Cowden herbs are concerned they are from the Amazon basin. They have been used a long time by the indigenous people there the same as Chinese herbals.

The pharmaceutical companies have been scouring these rain forests for years looking for extracts to replicate for drug manufacturing.

I will make a statment though that I have read Buhners protocol and have not tried it.

My lyme head had a hard time figuring out where to get what. I know he details it, but then I came on here and was even more confused where people were buying each herb.

The Cowden is simpler in that respect.

I do understand though the issue one may have with a company like Nutramedix selling the protocol as Cowden though.

I like the Cowden in the respect that I can lower or increase my dosage with just drops as opposed to the capsule form of other herbs.

While on the subject, Cowden, especially the full protocol could be a minor nusiance with traveling.

here's some tips:
1) Show the security peeps your package of herbs. They do consider herbs to be medicine.

In airports like Pensacola with military installations, I was once stopped and held up because the herbs were in my suitcase. They tested them with some machine to see if they had a caustic substance.

Otherwise I have had no problems with air travel.

2) I purchased a small tote for them, filled it with some bubble wrap to protect them and wrapped some of the herbs with bubble wrap too.

3) If you are going out, and are on limited protocol, you could pre-mix your herbs and put in one clean glass bottle. I used the large trace minerals bottle from the full protocol.

4) if traveling to a warm or cold climate, I have for a warm climate used a very small thermal bag (the kind you put sodas in) to house my herbs while I go about my business. This is to keep it out of the sun. I have used the thermal cooling inserts to keep them from getting too hot, but not directly on the herb, the coolant was in side pocket.

I also bring a small bottle of water and keep a small glass with me. If it's terribly hot in the car, I put the water in the cooler and it stays room temp.

Nutramedix says that as long as the herb doesn't boil or freeze, potency stays in tact.

I tend to err on the side of caution.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
I did not have the same experience traveling. You cannot carry the herbs on the airplane, they are considered supplements. They have to be in your suitcase. I told the lady they were medicinal herbs from my doctor, and she said, "No, they are supplements." Ugh.

I had to find a box and package my bottles because my luggage was already checked.
 

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Posted by Radha (Member # 8464) on :
 
are any of you taking the enov extract for emotional issues? did it help? can you take it without taking the rest of the herbs in the protocol? i want something to deal with the emotional issues if there are any and this looked interesting, but its expensive! thanks for any info
radha
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
For the record, the name of that homeopathy Yahoo Group is ``minutus''. I think Oxy accidentally spelled it `minitus'. It does appear to be a good site - thanks, Oxy.

I found the best prices (online) for the Cowden extracts are from:
myherbs.net
http://www.myherbs.net/index.asp

Anybody found a cheaper online source?

Great discussion, by the way. There is great input from both sides of the isle on this one.
 

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Posted by Aniek (Member # 5374) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sixgoofykids:
I did not have the same experience traveling. You cannot carry the herbs on the airplane, they are considered supplements. They have to be in your suitcase. I told the lady they were medicinal herbs from my doctor, and she said, "No, they are supplements." Ugh.

I had to find a box and package my bottles because my luggage was already checked.

---

When I travelled with liquid supplements during the complete ban on carry on liquids, I had a doctors note and never had a problem. I told security before going through about it. I did this with glutathione and a liquid folic acid.

You are allowed to bring liquids on in under 3 oz containers if they can fit in a 1 quart bag. If the entire protocol doesn't fit, you could always premix what you need for the flight and then check the rest.

Just make sure that what you premix is in a labeled bottle under 3 oz. You are not allowed to carry liquids on in unmarked bottles. But they never open the bottle to make sure what is in it matches the label (how will they know?). So you can get a small carry on mouthwash bottle or something.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Aniek, good advice. My problem was we had already checked out of the hotel before the doctor's appt, so were trying to go through with the whole month's supply ... dumb idea.

I've been on it three days now ... so far, so good! I even beat hubby at racquetball yesterday!
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Radha - Ezov is an extract of Hyssop flowers.

I don't see any reason why you can't take it alone without doing the Cowden protocol.

The herbs are for many ailments other than Lyme.

The Cowden protocol is just a part of their inventory.

---

Jeez... I don't know how you guys have the energy to travel & do stuff with Lyme. I've been really debilitated for at least 7 years. I hope I'll get to the point where I'll be worrying how to travel with the herbs. It's been so disappointing giving up so many things that I used to love to do when I was well.
 

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Posted by lucy96734 (Member # 8372) on :
 
When I flew I put the bottles back in the little box with the dividers that it was sent to me in, then put that in an insulated lunch box type thing and put it in my suitcase with my pillows.

It is easier to do at home than when you travel.

I think those are the best prices. When I called they helped me figure out what I needed (I cut out the lunch dose) and still had extra of some. They also gave me an extra $20 off. Who knows why. And free shipping, which to Hawaii is amazing.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Sparkle, I have to fly to see my LLMD.

I have gotten pretty much back to normal though, so hopefully some fun travel will be in my future, but so far, it's just been to NY.
 

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Posted by lucy96734 (Member # 8372) on :
 
Oh... I've flown to a neighbor island for fun and to CA for fun and to see my LLMD. I am pretty much better so traveling is fine now.

In April I will be flying to Boston for work- that will be a TRIP. CA is a 5 hr flight but Boston will be a LONG day.

You'll get there!
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Thanks guys!

The http://www.myherbs.net seems like a good site. I remember looking at it since she has a few herbal protocols going for Lyme. Someone gave me the info awhile back.

Sometimes Nutramedix gives discounts for doctors who try it for the first time. I asked my doctor to find out about it but he forgot. He's a good guy but kind of an absent minded professor type. I'll check into re-orders from myherbs.net...

The Burbur & Parsley really help with the herxing! I don't know why people don't use them with the abx? I'm not sure you can do it but if I were doing the abx now - I'd give it a try. I guess one could call the company to find out if that's OK.

One day at a time...
 

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Posted by minoucat (Member # 5175) on :
 
Nutramedix give a major discount to any licensed medical professional (nurses, LMPs, PTs, etc.) who buy at least 12 bottles (can be assorted) of their product, and reduced/free shipping for larger orders.

Proof of licensing is required. Their site gives the terms.

So if you have a medical professional in your family or among your friends, find out if they will buy your stuff for you.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Thanks Minoucat!

I knew I saw that somewhere. I'm going to have to bug my doctor about it. The herbs aren't exactly cheap...
 

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Posted by Radha (Member # 8464) on :
 
there are many cheaper brands of hyssop extract which is what the enzov extract is i guess and i see that hyssop is used for alot of respiratory issues so i wonder if it another brand would still do the same thing regarding the emotional issues? thanks sparkle 7 for replying,
Radha
 

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Posted by Aniek (Member # 5374) on :
 
Sparkle,

People do use Burbur without the whole protocol. I haven't done the whole protocol, just Cumanda for yeast and Burbur for detoxing. But I couldn't tolerate the Burbur. It caused diarhea.

I'm probably going to do Cowden in a few months. Right now, I'm detoxing so I can start moving metals.
 

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Posted by grapekoolaid (Member # 14371) on :
 
scott--in one of your posts u said a 2-1 issue of PHA will hace article on dr. cowden's protocol. what is pha? thanks!
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
www.publichealthalert.org - a Lyme publication. Dr. C. will be the cover story in the March issue which will be up on the site the first week of Feb.
 

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Posted by CD57 (Member # 11749) on :
 
Does the Cowden protocol cover bart or babesia, or just Lyme? Anyone know?
 

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Posted by lucy96734 (Member # 8372) on :
 
The reading I've done indicates it just covers Lyme. I know he has many protocols so there may be others that cover co-infections.

My LLMD has me on Cowden and Zhangs Art because I had tested pos for Babs way back when. I did 7 months of Mepron but an occasional symptom seemed to indicate Babs. Of course I only have an occasional symptom so...

I could be wrong.
 

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Posted by grapekoolaid (Member # 14371) on :
 
thanks, scott, i will definately watch for that article!
 

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Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
 
i went to the nutramedix site, but man, is that expensive. i can't afford that.

can a person go out and just buy the liquid and do it themselves or must you buy all those other things also?

i have a friend who started with just the liquid samento and that helped her and then she started adding other things.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
I think Nutramedix has a proprietary way of extracting the herbs. I think their products are very good. I'm not sure if you would get as good results from another brand.

I definitely understand about the cost. You don't have to order the whole protocol - you could do it gradually, over time. That's what is known as the "limited" protocol. The instructions are on the site.

The first 3 herbs you need are Cumanda, Burbur & Parsley. You basicly take those for the first 17 days. So, you can put off getting the other products for a week or 2. I like to use something to absorb the toxins like Welchol or Nanotek Chitosan. They have zeolites on the Nutramedix site.

From the results I'm getting in a short space of time - it's worth it!

I don't think I have the co-infections but I was thinking of doing the Zhang protocol after I get through the Cowden herbs. The tests are not accurate for the co-infections so my doctor said I didn't need them based on my symptoms. I guess I'll see how it goes.
 

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Posted by Chia Pet (Member # 12399) on :
 
Before I started Cowden, I bought a large bottle of Cat's Claw from my LLMD that was the same price as the Samento from Nutramedix.

I used it and I herxed like a banchee.

When I asked if I could use that in lieu of Cowden, they told me to stick with Cowden's Samento so they monitor my progress.

Honestly, I do not think there is a difference. The whole TOA controversy is discussed in Buhners book.

I did not see a difference in the Cats Claw vs. the TOA free Samento from Nutramedix. The bottle I bought from my LLMD was about 10X larger than Cowdens Samento.

I can understand their hesitantcy in not wanting to stray from the same products line in a protocol, but financially if I had a choice of not taking it, or taking it due to costs, I would try and get the most for my money.

Just make sure it is a reputable brand.

Perhaps someone else will chime in on this.
 

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Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
 
According to my former LLMD, now retired, Cat's Claw can cause kidney damage or even failure. As far as the TOA-free goes, he wasn't sure, but advised me to stop it.

On the other hand, my current LLMD recommends it.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
My LLMD said that Nutramedix/Cowden are coming out with a babesia treatment soon!!!

The cost is high .... but honestly, it's cheaper than one trip to NY!!!
 

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Posted by ctlyme (Member # 9022) on :
 
With regard to Cowden treating co-infections.

I spoke w/ a Naturapath who is on the protocol and she said she e-mailed Cowden a punch of questions regarding its effectiveness on co-infections and his response was that it does treat them w/ the exception of the most resistant types of Babs.
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
The Cowden Nutramedix products can be purchased cheaper online from these sites:

Renewal Enterprises
The Green Pharmacy
Susan Ambrosino's Herbs (myherbs)

You don't have to purchase them directly from Nutramedix, although I think you do for the zeolite.

I've been taking cumanda and burbur since July. I didn't make too much progress until I tried the doxycyline in December.

CherylSue
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Nutramedix is releasing a new product next month that is potentially useful for the difficult Babesia issues as well as other parasites, microfilarial worms, etc. The product will be announced soon and the Dr. C article that will be in the next PHA on 2/1 or that week will have some details as well.
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
Nutramedix also introduced serrapeptase (replaces carnivora in the protocol, reduces fibrin)

and zeolite (chelates heavy metals)

I'm counting the days to see this new product. Either it is one of the above or a brand new one altogether.

CherylSue
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
It is a brand new product, not Serrapeptase or Zeolite. I just did an interview of Dr. C. that mentions it. The interview will be available this weekend at the Florida Lyme conference I believe and then officially in the PHA first week of Feb. The product should be available in Feb as well.
 

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Posted by maryland (Member # 10345) on :
 
Some days are good on the protocol and some days are terrible. I did not start experiencing night sweats until the 60th day on the cowden. I have no idea if this stuff is working or not?????
 

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Posted by grapekoolaid (Member # 14371) on :
 
gm--i m very new to this board, but not new to chronic illness. was dx w/ ms early 1987. october 2006 added holistic doc and his phys asst (debbie) to my med team. stopped taking several 'traditional' meds late 2006 and started low does naltrexone (ldn--not fda approved www.lowdosenaltrexone.org) and large variety of supplements based on the different lab results debbie analyzed. by march 2007 i felt great! told husband i had no idea how poorly i felt until i started feeling better!

june 2007 debbie had recently returned from a lymes conference and it was suggested that the participants test all their ms patients for lymes. she did and test showed several positive bands. hmmmm....do i have ms or lymes? could i have both? got me---the symptoms r incredibly similar in many instances.

when i added debbie to 'my team', i made the decision to avoid as many traditional meds as possible. so, i chose to start cowdens protocol rather than antibiotics. i started his entire protocol in july 2007 and am still following it--i m in the 6th month.

i experienced 'noticeable' die off for the first 2-3 weeks----headaches, rash on thighs, some lethargy. it did pass and i really notice very little discomfort anymore. i m taking cowden's recommended number of drops of everything.

october 2007, one of debbies other ms patients who also has lymes made it out of her wheelchair after an 18 month daily iv of rocephin. debbie spoke w/ her llmd and we decided to do another lymes test on me to see how the cowden protocol was impacting me. some bands that were - are now either IND or +; however, i do still have several - bands. i can tell you that since october 2006 (ldn), january 2007 (supplements)that i have had zero debilitating progression whereas prior to oct 2006, i was steadily deteriorating.

debbie and i have decided to hold off on the antibiotics and to continue cowden for 3 more months and then we will have another discussion re: use of abx.

i still have some symptoms (balance left side stiffness, vision, bladder control and burning issues) and i m still in a w/c, but i sincerely feel the use of ldn, supplements and cowden have improved my overall health. husband recently had a bad cold and i did not get it! yae!

cowden protocol is expesive so i am thankful i read a post on this forum that shared another provider of nutramedix products at a lower price.

i dont know what my future decision will be regarding abx, but i will keep reading and learning so that i will know what to do when/if the time comes.

thanks for all your sharing---i find it to be very helpful!
 

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Posted by Chia Pet (Member # 12399) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ctlyme:
With regard to Cowden treating co-infections.

I spoke w/ a Naturapath who is on the protocol and she said she e-mailed Cowden a punch of questions regarding its effectiveness on co-infections and his response was that it does treat them w/ the exception of the most resistant types of Babs.

---

I was told that yesterday. Maybe I misunderstood, but my LLMD said it doesn't treat Babs.
I think Quina may help. I now am now going back on Mepron, Zith, Septra and art because my Babs?Lyme is worst.
Have been on cowden going on 8 months, malarone, and just started Art about 3 weeks ago.

I think the ART is drawing out the bugs because symptoms are coming out I haven't had in a year. Not this bad anyway. or I relapsed. Basically can't do much of anything.

LLMD thinks went downhill and have to do the regime.

On a positive note, Cowden is working on a Babs resistant protocol.
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
How does he know he's found herbs that work on babs? And if so why didnt anybody else find them until now? What studies has he done, for instance double blind in laboratory mice. Lots of claims but who knows what the evidence is or the safety of the herbs.
 

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Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
 
After reading your posts, I guess I must be wrong, but back when I was on one of the earlier versions of Cowden's Protocol, I was given to understand that Quina, which comes from quinine, kills Babs.

Also, Samento itself is supposed to kill a couple of strains of Babs, but not all. Any dosage of Samento over 3 drops daily can stop my chills within 2 days, so I think I must have one of the Babs strains that Samento works against. My two Babs tests were negative, but we all know that does not mean much.

It did not matter for me that Quina kills Babs, since all quinine derivitives make me stop breathing, and are therefore off limits.

Both Samento and Cumanda made me herx, though I eventually stopped herxing on Cumanda. I now take only a small daily dose of Samento (2 drops), because I will still herx on higher doses after 4 yrs. of taking it, and my spouse refuses to put up with the resulting Lyme rages.

I failed to find any research showing kidney damage from Samento, but would love to have citations to such research, anyone? I ask because recently my BUN/Creatanine ratios have been off in my labs, which is a sign of kidney function. If the Samento is causing that, I want to know ASAP.

Klutzo
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
Hey, Scott Forsgren's article about the new Cowden protocol is now on his betterhealthguy website. The article is titled, "Expanded Treatment Focus Markedly Improves Lyme Disease Patient Outcomes."

Thanks, Scott!

P.S. Have you been using Dr. C's new suggested products? What has been your experience? Can it be taken with antibiotics (doxycycline)?

CherylSue

[ 19. January 2008, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: CherylSue ]
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I was going to post it, but I can't post the link since it is currently only available on my site and soon to be on the PHA site. I can't post my site links here without breaking the rules.

I have used Serrapeptase so far and am likely to try Enula. I have used the Zeolite that Dr. C suggested in the past and likely will change to the NM Zeolite. I have already purchased it but not yet started.
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
The article is also posted on the Nutramedix Ecuador website.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Grapecoolade - Thanks for the info about Naltrexone. I'm going to look into it.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
http://www.bionatus.com/nutramedix/pdfs/publichealthalert_cowden.pdf

[ 20. January 2008, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: SForsgren ]
 

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Posted by grapekoolaid (Member # 14371) on :
 
thank you, scott--m printing the article now! looking forward to reading it! i saw a post where serrapatase (misspelled) is now taken in lieu of carnivora?? is this correct? i also just purchased the aeolite hp---is that the product dr. c still recommends? this may all be spelled out ion your article, but i thought i would ask b-4 i log off---i have dial up and it is sloooooow. thanks
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
He still does energetic testing with the Asyra or other tools as mentioned in the article to determine what the patient may need for his own patients, but for the NutraMedix protocol, Zeolite now replaces Algas and Serrapeptase replaces Carnivora. Make sure you read and understand the difference between Zeolite and Zeolite HP. For most people, Zeolite is the one to start with first and then later progress to the HP. Also mentioned in the article. Be well
 

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Posted by grapekoolaid (Member # 14371) on :
 
truly loved your article, scott---very CLEAR!i m learning alot!

i did understand the difference between zeolite and zeolite hp. since i m in month 6 of the full protocol, i have previously used the algas , chorella and physasst also had me take dmsa. only doing algas at this time. it seems as if it is appropriate for me to go with the zelite hp at this time. i also will start the serrapeptase and return the unopened carnivora! i have sent all of this to phys asst and will touch base w/ her before i make these adjustments. i will also point out the 'free' offer of 6 months of the protocol to each physician's office (hoping i read that correctly!) i forget the name of the 'new' herb, but i need to get me some of that too! i m excited!

do u have any thoughts on how i find out if i have truly had lyme all these years rather than ms? or, does it even matter? i had 6mos follow up w/ neuro thursday and it truly was a regular NON appointment if u get my drift! i made him aware of the 2 lyme nests, ldn, cowden protocol, etc and received the typical verbiage re: scientific studies, blah, blah, blah...take care!
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Very nice article, Scott.

I'm really doing well on the herbs so far.

My LLMD also has adjusted my thyroid meds, so in conjunction with the adrenal support of the Cowden protocol and the additional adrenal support I am taking (I believe it's Xymogen Adrenal Essense), I am feeling SO much better!

I had more energy this weekend than any other member of my family, LOL. And that was after spending two days cleaning and organizing hubby's new office building!

I am still on one abx and one babs med. I'll be switching over to the new babs herb next month.

I'm really liking this as a follow-up to abx ... I was not better by ILADS standards, but Dr. H feels that this is the way to get the rest of it out. He also has me doing lots more detox as mentioned in the article.
 

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Posted by savebabe (Member # 9847) on :
 
Does anybody know how long the new babs herbs treatment will take?

Do you continue taking this new supplement along with other herbs?

Thanks
 

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Posted by maryland (Member # 10345) on :
 
Why on earth would Dr. Cowden (and other LLMD's) advise patients to include samento as part of our treatment regimine if Samento causes renal failure?????????
 

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Posted by Chia Pet (Member # 12399) on :
 
OK, I am not a newbie to Lyme, just not an avid poster, sorry.

I have done the Cowden for 7 months now. Just stopped a couple of days ago and supposed to go back to antibiotics. We'll be treating for Babs/bart with Mepron, zith, septra and art.

The art will be 5 days on and 3 off.

I have no clue what these herbs are targeting, only can say that I sometimes felt better on Quina, and sometimes Cumanda during rotation.

Maybe because Babs may have been cycling itself at certain points, I believe the Quina may have helped. I was also on malarone for the past 4 months which helped.

I have always done the full 30 drops of Quina and Cumanda. Samento had to drop back to 10 after 2 months.

LLMD told me to try Banderol for 30 days, then 30 days Quina. It's not something he has done before or often I understand.

Banderol got me so sick and it did not abate at all when I switched to Quina. Matter of fact, I have regressed so badly with what i think are Bart symptoms. I didn't tolerate banderol longer than 18 days.

I felt like I was poisoned on Banderol. The Burbur or the parsley did not help me during this time significantly enough, and for a few days I took Burbur practically every hour with some help.

Saw LLMD on Friday the 18th and he thinks I slipped, hence antibiotics and also feels chronic Babs. (I did wake up with sweats very bad one night, loooow blood pressure, my whole body felt inflamed, have chills quite a bit (can't get warm)

Forgot to show him what I think is a Bart papule which came out during Banderol. (my lyme brain)

Today after a shower and having worn lose clothing for 3 days since I have been homebound, I noticed what looked like a stretch mark rash.

I am going to be calling LLMD regarding this tomorrow, but also will be contacting Cowden via fax to ask if he has seen Banderol draw out Bart symptoms. None of the other herbs did this to me.
The tightening in ribs got sooo bad, I thought someone had a belt wrapped around me. Have had thi symptom before, but it was pronounced with Banderol.

Wearing a bra was next to impossible and believe me I need one, so I tucked them in my pants.
(kidding)

As far as chronic Babs, apparently he is coming to NY in March to meet with a subset of patients. I've been added to the list, but not sure if chronic Babs is really my main issue right now.

I had been treated for Bart 2 years ago. Had 3 Babs test and 3 Bart- all NEG. But my symtoms of anxiety, bone pain, suicidal, nodes enlarged suggested treating Bart. I NEVER had any of this prior to treatment and even in the 17 years of treating Lyme.

I did test POS for Babs 7 yrs ago.

I tell you this because this because of my past history and extended time on Cowden that I feel I can speak of my experience and my hypotheses what is occuring with these herbs.

I am not convinced my sweats episode was babs.
I believe Bart can do this as well which obviously can complicate diagnosis.

Buhner's Book on Bart mentions this very same thing, page 198
" In all cases they (Bart) move into endothelial tissue. However, once adapted to a new species, they periodically move from that location into red blood cells. This creates a periodically recurring malarial like (or babesiosis like) disease"

I am very interested to hear what Cowden has to say and I will post my responses when/if I receive them.

But my suspician is Banderol will draw out the Bart. Could be I brought down the Babs and Bart reared it's ugly head? Not sure. I could be wrong.

But I don't think it kills Bart IMHO. I think it upset it enough to move around.

You can call me nuts if you like.
You wouldn't be the first..... LOL

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it important to explain history to justify my rationale.

If you take anything away from this it should be to go slow on Banderol. I assumed because I could tolerate the full dose of Quina and Cumanda that I would do the same on Banderol.

That was a mistake for me.

[ 22. January 2008, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Chia Pet ]
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Into your pants ...

I'm using Cowden after knocking down the Lyme and being symptom-free of coinfections. I hope it works better for you after getting these coinfections!

Most of my sweats went away with babs treatment .... but I still had a version of the sweats until bart was treated. They weren't quite as drenching as the babs sweats, but they were still pretty drenching.

It does sound like bart is a problem for you. I hope the abx treatment goes well and quickly.
 

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Posted by maryland (Member # 10345) on :
 
I beginning to see the that the symptoms of babs and bartonella are similar. My LLMD believes I may have bartonella (night stickyness but not drenching sweats, and slight soreness & pain underneath my feet). Over the past 6 years I've had all (-) Igenx tests. Thoughts??
 

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Posted by Chia Pet (Member # 12399) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by SForsgren:
He still does energetic testing with the Asyra or other tools as mentioned in the article to determine what the patient may need for his own patients, but for the NutraMedix protocol, Zeolite now replaces Algas and Serrapeptase replaces Carnivora. Make sure you read and understand the difference between Zeolite and Zeolite HP. For most people, Zeolite is the one to start with first and then later progress to the HP. Also mentioned in the article. Be well

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quote:

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Does he explain the reason for the change from Carnivora to Serrapeptase? You mean I took that meat eating plant for naught? LOL
The carnivora was used briefly in the beginning of the protocol. Is the Serrapetase being used through the entire protocol now?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Flyinpiker:
Anyone know the answer to this? Is it because Nutramedix is not able to manufacture Carnivora themselves for patent reasons or is Serrapeptase more effective?

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