___Joint pain and stiffness (often both Left and Right sides as opposed to Lyme which is often on one side only with pain and stiffness that changes locations)
___Muscle pains especially the calves; may be twitching and cramping also
___Foot pain, more in the morning involving the heels or soles of the feet (sometimes misdiagnosed as plantar fasciitis)
___Nerve irritation symptoms which can be described as burning, vibrating, numb, shooting, etc.
___Tremors and/or muscle twitching
___Heart palpitations and strange chest pains
___Episodes of breathlessness
___Strange rashes recurring on the body often, red stretch marks, and peculiar tender lumps and nodules along the sides of the legs or arms, spider veins
___Gastrointestinal symptoms, abdominal pain and acid reflux
___Shin bone pain and tenderness
Bartonella is a bacterium that causes illness, the most commonly known of which is a disease called "Cat Scratch Fever." Thousands of known cases of Bartonella occur in the U.S. each Year, with the vast majority of known cases due to bites from fleas that infest cats or infected dogs (may also occur directly from bites and scratches from infected dogs or cats). Bartonella can also be transmitted by ticks that transmit Lyme Disease. In fact, in a study published recently, deer ticks from New Jersey had a higher prevalence of Bartonella organisms than of Lyme organisms.
It is unclear whether the organism that we see transmitted along with Lyme disease is actually a Bartonella species (such as B. henselae or B. quintana) or is "Bartonella-Like Organism" (BLO) that is yet to be fully identified. While BLO has features similar to organisms in the Bartonella family, it also has features slimiar to the Mycoplasma and the Francisella (causes tularemia) families.
_________________
Babesiosis
As with other co-infections, there is a lot of overlap of symptoms between Lyme disease and Babesiosis. An accumulation of the following signs and symptoms probably warrant testing and/or treatment of Babesiosis:
___Chills
___Fatigue and often excessive sleepiness
___High fever at onset of illness
___Night sweats that are often drenching and profuse
___Severe muscle pains, especially the large muscles of the legs (quads, buttocks, etc.)
___Neurological symptoms often described as "dizzy, tipsy, and spaciness," similar to a sensation of "floating" or "walking off the top of a mountain onto a cloud"
___Depression
___Episodes of breathlessness, "air hunger", and/or cough
___Decreased appetite and/or nausea
___Spleen and/or liver enlargement
___Abnormal labs (low white blood count, low platelet counts, mild elevation of liver enzymes, and elevated sed rate)
___Headaches (migraine-like, persistent, and especially involving the back of the head and upper neck areas)
___Joint pain (more common with Lyme and Bartonella)
___anxiety/panic (more common with Bartonella)
___Lymph gland swelling (more common with Bartonella and Lyme)
Posted by johnnyb (Member # 7645) on :
Good post, Fuzzy.
Maybe worth "stickying?"
- JB
Posted by Nori (Member # 8983) on :
excellent post
I can vouch for the Bart list!!
Posted by ByronSBell 2007 (Member # 11496) on :
hmmmm... I must have babs and bart
Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
Thanks so much for posting this, Fuzzy!
I can print this off now and take it to our LLMD. He's going to wonder how I got ahold of his lists without him giving it to me though! hahaha.
That's strange: for Babs it said, "Abnormal labs (low white blood count, etc.)"
I definitely have that problem. Thought only Ehrlichia could do that, but have been taking Doxy for so long, if it was Ehrlichia you'd think it would have cleared up or at least helped my WBC rise some, but it hasn't budged.
I am definitely going to talk this over with my LLMD. I have lots of symptoms of Babs and we already know I have Bart.
Posted by ByronSBell 2007 (Member # 11496) on :
I have slightly low white count too. Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
quote:Originally posted by ByronSBell 2007: I have slightly low white count too.
Sadly, mine isn't slightly low, mine's pretty bad. Like 2.4 when it should be 4.0 - 10. It's so annoying and scary all at the same time. It's been this way for me since high school though, which is around the time I think I was bit.
Posted by Chia Pet (Member # 12399) on :
Thanks so much for this.
Confirms what I always believed to be Bart for me even though I tested POS many years ago for babs, I do not think I have Babs any longer or at least it's not the main source of my angst.
Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
fuzzy,
thanks so much for this; i'll add it to my newbie package,
and will send LOU BACHMAN A PM asking him to make this list a STICKY FEATURE...that stays at top for newbies/oldies to use as needed!
Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
fuzzy, did you notice; lou put you RIGHT ON TOP! do you feel high and mighty now? lol Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
lol, betty, no I didn't notice at first that lou had put a sticky on this thread. Anyway, I hope it's helpful to some folks.
Fuzzy
Posted by lymebytes (Member # 11830) on :
How many "yes" answers indicate you have that particular co-infection?
Posted by Amanda (Member # 14107) on :
FYI all you West Coasters - According to one of the good Lyme docs out here in California, Babesia here is a little different than back east.
Patients tend not to have the anemia, air hunger and tiredness as much. I also understand that Babesia infections out here tend to show up less on blood tests (although there are plenty of people back east that told me they had negative tests too)
Also, I didn't see mention of neck and upper back pain and stiffness with Babesia, and this is a common symptom.
My white blood cell counts have been hoovering around 2.5. Started Babesia meds (mepron/zithromyacin plus artemesia). Will see if WBC go back up.
Amanda
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Fuzzy, I can't say thank you enough for this post. I've been thinking about my sx lately and more importantly my soon to be 7 oldest grandson.
We both are looking more and more likely to be bartonella victims. Makes sense, both of us were together much of the summer, since I was his day care provider. We both had embeddedd ticks on us early June 07.
We had been to a state park together and also to his t-ball field in a surrounded by woods and wildlife area together just two-three days before.
Pam
Posted by The Rose (Member # 13993) on :
I have been having so many serious health issues as of late with a new problem now of acute Rhabdomyolysis has anyone had this from their treatment for Lyme?
Posted by lymebytes (Member # 11830) on :
HI AGAIN EVERYONE!! This is my 2nd try!! How many Yes answers to these lists indicate you have that co-infection?
The Rose - you should probably post that question under a New Topic in main forum area so it can be seen.
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
hi lymebytes,
I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your question. The doc used these questionnaires to aid in making a clinical diagnosis. It's not the only diagnostic criteria that was used either. I happened to have all of the symptoms except for one on the bart questionnaire. I also tested positive for bart via Fry labs. Tested negative for babs but I do have all but about 3-4 of the symptoms on the questionnaire for babs. So babs has not been ruled out yet in my case.
I don't believe these questionnaires are meant to be all-inclusive. That is, they don't list all the symptoms associated with Babs or Bart. And, as is stated in the Babs questionnaire, there can be a LOT of overlap of symptoms between Lyme and the co-infections.
I think it's helpful to consider that we, as patients, do not have to present with every symptom on a diagnostic questionnaire. Nor do we have to have every symptom listed in a textbook or in a guideline in order to have a particular disease. People can present with only a few symptoms or they can present with all symptoms.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Fuzzy
Posted by Health (Member # 6034) on :
Light sensitivity was a symptom of Babesia for myself as well as EMF sensitivity.
I also had to treat lyme again once I treated babesia, and then back to babesia treatment, then back to lyme treatment.
Some hints that may help others.
Trish
Posted by capebite (Member # 9789) on :
I have so many of these symptoms of bartonella but so tremendously exhausted all the time with tremendous head fog...terrible shin pain in my right leg, one sided sweats, shaking, twitching. pain so bad at times that if I had an ax I would have cut it off. Fry test antibodies negative but bart showed in pictures according to lab. I already knew that I had it but noone would treat it so I switched Doctors at the beginning of the week. She is just starting me on Zith oral 250 mgs. BID. Will this help?? She is doing echo as she thinks it is also in my heart. I am so very very sick. Lisa
Posted by HamDune (Member # 14139) on :
capebite,
Bartonella can beget fatigue and decreased cognition as well. According to my research and my LLMD's affirmation, Bartonella causes vasculitis through its action on the red blood cells.
This can greatly reduce blood flow to the head, legs, etc. Which could explain a lot of the poor circulatory function for many as well as the reduction in clear thought.
If you haven't already, look into a Fry blood smear test for Lyme co-infections.
Hope this helps! Hang in there. Better days are on the way.
Posted by IMHisda (Member # 6998) on :
Thank you fuzzy for this. I had two strains of Bart (I'm pretty sure it was from my cat since I had the red puffiness from his scratches (which he hardly ever did) Was treated a long time (2 strains) but still have the shin pain and some of the other symptoms. Wondering sometimes if my cat gave it to my hubbie and he's giving it back to me. I hated this disease more than the Lyme. It made me sooo sick!
Posted by minimonkey (Member # 8693) on :
I don't know how true this is, but I've heard that red puffiness from cat scratches also happens when someone is even slightly allergic to cats. I know I certainly had it from cats I've had over the years and assumed it was from an allergy, but then again, I'm symptomatic for bart, so I'm a bad example...
Posted by Hot socks (Member # 14557) on :
Hi! everyone,and thank you fuzzy slippers for posting this. I am new to this disease and need lots of help. so any info you can send my way would help. I am still learning just how to use the computor! I tried to post a subject but not sure it posted.
Posted by inwitari (Member # 14559) on :
I am new on this site as well, and would like to thank you for posting this list. It's much more clear than trying to read through a bunch of medical articles on it, while suffering with Lyme fog...
Posted by sunshinyday (Member # 14337) on :
Great post Fuzzyslippers.
Thanks again for posting it.
Posted by leogrl54 (Member # 10770) on :
haven't been on in a long time. nothing to earth shattering, just sometimes you get tired of talking about Lyme. BBBUUUTTT- the bartonella/babesia symptom questionaire is right on. Again this sight never makes me feel alone. it describes me to a tee-especially the sweats/cognitive dysfunction/gi symptoms-well basically everything fits. thanks, i have a new primary care. can you believe this(lol), just met him the other day. he wasn't aware there was Lyme in Montana!!! it never ends
Posted by BJK (Member # 13251) on :
Hi All,
Below is a link to a page that has a table comparing the various LD infections and symptom overlap.
If you veteran lymies could take a look. I will welcome any PM's to add anything I have missed, this is very easy to edit (it only took about 12 hours to figure that out).
I've been playing with this for a while and filling it in as I learn more, this post was great!
My intent was to isolate symptoms that stood out for specific infections to help in figuring out where focus is needed.
Thanks
BJK
Posted by aw3sk3r (Member # 14791) on :
I had never known that there were such things as coinfections untill a friend of mine with LD informed me.
Posted by CraigC (Member # 13732) on :
Does Bart/Babs treatment usually require the same timeframe as that of Lyme treatment? Or by some miracle, is it less? I ask this, because obviously I don't want to be on high dosages of abx, for any longer than is necessary.
And please, don't come back with the patented answer..."as long as it takes". Posted by 1tickedlady (Member # 14907) on :
Thanks for the list. I am new to bart and just starting treatment. Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :
Interestig list -- several of the Bart symptoms you list I had always associated with Babesia and not Bartonella.
Craig,
Theoretically Babs and/or Bart should only require 4 - 6 months continuous treatment -- red blood cells have a life span of approximately 120 days. In reality, don't think I know of anyone who got rid of either infection that quickly. Many people end up treating with every known med it seems like and still have a lingering infection even years down the road.
One of the problems is that each infection requires a different set of meds and since the symptoms overlap you are never 100% sure you are even treating the right infection.
Big debate over whether to treat infections one at a time or all at the same time.
Bea Seibert
[ 12. April 2008, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: seibertneurolyme ]
Posted by babesiamom (Member # 14182) on :
thought you might find the following helpful. There are some major pieces of data that are missing and are available in major journal articles, publications and in books... some out and two new ones ready to be released on Bartonella and another on why treatment fails...
NEW BABESIA, BARTONELLA and LYME TREATMENT OPTIONS Reasons Why Past Treatment FAILED
I recently was sent this collection of serious new research by a doctor, who is in the middle of about 5 books related to tick-borne infections. In this link: http://www.personalconsult.com/bartonella/
he offers some stunning material which I have pasted below:
1) Why routine Babesia treatment like Mepron and Artemisinin/Artemisia fail due to such low dosing.
2) He explains why routine lab testing at even the elite tick infection labs fail to find co-infections such as Babesia and Bartonella fail.
3) This research clinician explains why Bartonella treatment is required for Lyme to also be cured.
4) New research that ALL routine Bartonella infection treatments usually fail.
Sample New Articles * Ignore Bartonella and Die * Bartonella is Becoming the Most Important Issue in Treatment of Lyme * Do Bartonella Infections Cause Agitation, Panic Disorder, and Treatment-Resistant Depression? * The Bartonella Plague Ignored: A Common Reason Lyme Treatment Fails FREE indoor mold book chapters. * Indoor mold is present in 30% of structures and makes Lyme cure hard. * An article listing three mold toxins and their effects with references Download Article ( * Here are some chapters from the clearest, simplest and probably the most-useful mold book on the market. PDF of the first 4 chapters of another easy to read indoor mold book. Download Chapters
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
Babesiamom,
Thank you for the information. As I have previously mentioned on this thread, the above questionnaire on Babesia and Bartonella is not intended to include all signs and symptoms of the two illnesses.
This questionnaire is used as a diagnostic tool.
In addition to being circulated by LLMD's and Lyme patients, this list has also been published in Dr. K. S.'s recent book, "The Lyme Disease Solution Book."
I think your post was misleading in indicating that the above Babesia/Bartonella Symptom Questionnaire was missing "major pieces of data."
If you have a particular issue with the above lists and any information they might be lacking, or if you have suggestions on the inclusion of further symptoms, perhaps you can approach the Lyme Literate doctors who have comprised and are sharing this information.
I reiterate, the above list is not intended to include all signs and symptoms of the diseases (and it was never presented as such). It is to be used as a diagnostic aid.
Fuzzy
[ 05-29-2010, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: FuzzySlippers ]
Posted by irislove23 (Member # 15416) on :
how do you get tested for Bart/Babs?
I am sorry for my ignorance, but I am newly diagnosed and trying to get as much information together as possible before I go see an LLMD
Posted by Rianna (Member # 11038) on :
This seems to have been removed from the 'Old Hot' fixed information at the top of Medical questions?????
Its is So useful and important-How does one have it as a fixed item again??
Rianna
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
Hi iris,
Hope I'm not too late in responding to your question. There are a variety of tests that your LLMD can do for co-infections. Co-Infection testing still, though, has it difficulties because even the best tests out there are not testing for all of the strains of bartonella and babesia that are infecting people.
My docs did the FISH test through Igenex for Babesia and the Fry test through Fry Labs for Bartonella.
Hope this helps.
Fuzzy
Posted by Beverly (Member # 1271) on :
up..
Posted by mojo (Member # 9309) on :
Babs and Bart - what a nice couple (not!)
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
up for Brainspud and other new members who are interested.
Posted by Rianna (Member # 11038) on :
Can you herx with babesia
I started malarone 3 weeks ago and felt the best I have in ages - exactly 3 weeks on treatment and wallop symptoms have come back very bad - I assume its a herx
Rianna
Posted by tosho (Member # 10191) on :
up
Posted by dharmacleaning (Member # 2114) on :
Hallucinations with Babs....6 years later, still having, though not as bad. Just weird:)
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Hey sweetie, Maybe you can post these on www.lymefriends.com in the Bart and Babs group. Also in a general discussion.
That would probably help a lot of people.
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
just bumping this for new members.
Posted by swachsler (Member # 18155) on :
Hi,
It was actually that symptom q'aire, along with a post at the same site about "babesia rashes" (back of neck) that got me to finally go back to my LLD, after months of no tx, to get retested.
I found them at a different site. I just assumed Lymenet already had them cuz you guys seem to know so much.
I actually made copies of the lists a year ago and checked off all the sx I had on both, for my PCP and LLD. Don't know if either read them.
I had *more* bartonella sx than babs sx, but after retesting off abx many months, I got a poz FISH for babs and 2 poz test for Lyme, but neg for bart. (All Igenix.)
I still wonder if I might have bart. We are tx now for both Lyme and babs.
2 questions:
1. Can anyone help me try to figure out which sx belong to which disease? There is so much overlap.
2. Someone said "underdosing" for babs. I'm 225 lbs, taking 1 tsp Mepron 2xday, 600 mg zith/day, 200mg art 3xday. What do u think?
Thanks for any help.
-Sharon P.S. I'm going to look at that sx comparison chart link and hope that helps, too.
Posted by swachsler (Member # 18155) on :
BJK,
I've tried your link a couple times, and keep getting a message from Yahoo that the page was not found.
Help?
-Sharon
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
Hi Sharon,
um, I think that might have been a post I made on another forum that you read awhile ago about the back-of-the-neck rash seen in babesia.
When I was given this questionnaire by an LLMD, I posted it here and on other Lyme bulletin boards a year ago. You'll note the date this thread was originated is 1/2008.
Don't know if that answers your query about who posted the questionnaire, when, etc.
I had never heard many people mention the back of the neck rash much. I didn't even know I had it. My doc made note of it on his own during my physical exam. My LLMD's said they see it all the time in Babs. It turned out to be diagnostic for me, as well as many of the other Babs symptoms. I tested negative on two Babs tests but have responded in such way to Babs treatment that there is no doubt that I have it.
I guess I must have one of the many strains of Babs that the labs aren't able to test for.
I'm so glad that I mentioned the rash on that other post on that other forum and that it might have helped you. Golly, and I thought I was rambling on that thread and was even a little embarrassed at how verbose I thought I'd been. lol
Note: People wondering about the rash -- it can usually be seen at the back of the neck, just above the hairline. Sometimes one has to look underneath the hair to see it.
Here is a Co-infection thread that Melanie Reber has kept. It might help you in reading further on co-infection symptoms. It sure has helped me.
Also, see the Bartonella Information Thread linked below. I included the above questionnaire in that thread. But also within that thread, among the medical abstracts, is a good article by Doc B on Bartonella, links to other good articles, as well as further symptoms lists.
As to your second question on underdosing. I'm afraid I'm not sure how to answer that. I do know that many people have found that they have needed to increase the Mepron dose to 1 tsp. 3 times a day. For what it's worth, in his book on Babesia, Doc S. said that he typically doubled the Mepron dose to 2 tsp. twice a day.
BJK's post on this thread was from a year ago. I don't know whether he/she has continued to maintain that link or not.
Hope this helps and I do hope you start to feel improvement with your treatment. Stay strong!
Fuzzy
Posted by swachsler (Member # 18155) on :
Oh my goodness, Fuzzy, thank you so much for posting this and PM me! I have been searching for you (not knowing it was you), for so long!
You are the only other person I've found who has mentioned the babs rash, and none of my other docs, including 2 LLMDs, had heard of it. And it's exactly where you described!
I have spoken to my LLMD since I posted the above and listed my bart sx, which I gleaned from Lymenet, Burrascano 08, and an online search of bart/psych sx. I have almost all the bart sx.
I think she does now also think I have bart, but we are trying to treat other issues first. I will look at those links, and I want to PM you about the babs rash.
Yes, your posts were truly useful to me. I saw them in the summer or early fall of 08, I believe. I know it was before Oct., because that's when I got my Igenix tests redone.
-Sharon
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
bump for newbies.
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
bump for new members.
Posted by littlebit27 (Member # 24477) on :
This is a great list. I might print it out so I can take it with me to my next appt with my LLMD since I seem to forget all my symptoms when asked what they are, lol.
Posted by Pocono Lyme (Member # 5939) on :
Thanks for bumping this up.
Helpful for oldies too.
Posted by bcb1200 (Member # 25745) on :
My doc indicated I tested borderline for both. I suspect I have both and Bart being my most serious problem aside from Lyme. I have sweats, calf pain / twitching, GI issues / gastritis, anxiety.
It is all much better now. Was terrible in March / April.
I think I have a little babesiosis problem too, but not as bad as bart.
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
Bumping this to the top since we seem to have alot of new members at this time.
To new members:
Babesia and Bartonella are two infections that are commonly seen in people with Lyme Disease. These infections are often referred to as "co-infections."
There are many other infections(i.e, "co-infections") that are seen with Lyme Disease as well.
To see more detailed lists of symptoms for Lyme Disease as well as co-infections, there is a thread on Lymenet that is kept permanently at the top of the Medical Forum, under a post called "Quick Links To Popular Topics":
Hope this helps.
Posted by bcb1200 (Member # 25745) on :
I like these lists. It makes it seem like Bart is my main co-infection rather than BAbs. I have a lot on the Bart list.
Question...why isn't this list published elsewhere? It seems as if most docs want my feet to be sore or for me to have a bart rash before they agree it is bart.
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
bcb1200,
Actually, this specific list has been published by at least one Lyme Literate Medical Doctor. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment to give you page number references, but it is published in "The Lyme Disease Solution," book by Dr. S.
Dr. B also has included many of these symptoms on his co-infection symptoms lists in his Lyme Disease Treatment Guidelines.
Also, these symptoms are included in many other detailed symptom lists. See the Lymenet thread I posted above for examples.
And many medical articles on Bartonella contain many of the symptoms on the questionnaire.
I guess it's important for us to remember that we don't have to have all of the symptoms mentioned on a particular symptom check list. That is, we can still have Lyme Disease and/or Bartonella and/or Babesia and not experience all of the symptoms associated with those diseases.
As you inferred, the medical doctors need to keep this in mind as well!
There is a Bartonella Information Thread here on Lymenet that I'll bump to the top of the forum for you, in case it might help. It contains more details, including symptoms lists, links, articles, etc.
Fuzzy
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
Just bumping this to the top for any new people that might be interested.
Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :
^^
Posted by 17hens (Member # 23747) on :
quote:Originally posted by FuzzySlippers: Hi Sharon,
um, I think that might have been a post I made on another forum that you read awhile ago about the back-of-the-neck rash seen in babesia.
When I was given this questionnaire by an LLMD, I posted it here and on other Lyme bulletin boards a year ago. You'll note the date this thread was originated is 1/2008.
Don't know if that answers your query about who posted the questionnaire, when, etc.
I had never heard many people mention the back of the neck rash much. I didn't even know I had it. My doc made note of it on his own during my physical exam. My LLMD's said they see it all the time in Babs. It turned out to be diagnostic for me, as well as many of the other Babs symptoms. I tested negative on two Babs tests but have responded in such way to Babs treatment that there is no doubt that I have it.
I guess I must have one of the many strains of Babs that the labs aren't able to test for.
I'm so glad that I mentioned the rash on that other post on that other forum and that it might have helped you. Golly, and I thought I was rambling on that thread and was even a little embarrassed at how verbose I thought I'd been. lol
Note: People wondering about the rash -- it can usually be seen at the back of the neck, just above the hairline. Sometimes one has to look underneath the hair to see it.
Fuzzy
Can anyone tell me more about the Babesia rash Fuzzy is talking about? Is it raised or flat? Might it look like a strawberry rash? (Hope not. If it does, don't tell me! No, go ahead.)
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Like 2.4 when it should be 4.0 - 10. It's so annoying and scary all at the same time. It's been this way for me since high school though, which is around the time I think I was bit.
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