This is the kinda short version because I am tired and it is YOUR lucky day. HA! That's a joke!
You KNOW it is NEVER short when I post.
I was VERY VERY sick recently with a herx. I nearly always get the ...
"Is this a herx or am I gonna die?" herxes. REALLY bad.. and they last WAY too long, etc.
This past month I hit the herx time.. was very bad.. and had a doctors appointment to go to. I can't believe I even made it there. I had NO paper work for them.. no nothing. Just me feeling like a train wreck.
When the nurse asked how I was ... I was so sick I said... "If 100 people felt as bad as I did, none of them would be out of bed... much less here."
Run Forest, run.
Ok.. the Doc saw how bad I was. And I was really too weak to fight the doc or anything the doc said... too weak to talk, think, etc. Barely able to sit up even.
Before I knew it.. I had an IV in my arm and remembered saying in a weak voice.. "What are the side effects?" Good time to ask THAT... after I am getting it. Anyhow..
Had I felt decent at all.. I would NEVER have agreed to do what the doc wanted. I am NOT good at trying this and that new stuff nilly willy.. cause so many things make me worse... and until I am totally comfortable with something.. and until I study it myself.. I ain't doing it. Period.
But that day I was too sick to care if I died .. and too weak to argue with anyone about anything.
The doc said I might feel some mild pressure in my face as a side effect... in the sinus area... but that tomorrow I would be good.
Oh GREAT I thought.. The sinuses will get stopped up and I won't be able to breathe.
That actually didn't happen at all.. but...
Within 1 minute of getting the IV med treatment started my whole body improved. My head cleared up instantly. My eyes.. and I literally couldn't see my feet on the floor when I got to the office.. but my eyes became suddenly clear... as if I had brand new ones. Crystal clear and sharp.
My muscles suddenly felt like they calmed down and stopped the aching and burning... and my back straightened up and I was able to sit up straight. My voice became strong and I felt like breathing wasn't a dreaded chore anymore.
When I first got there.. I was so bad I decided if the doc didn't come in the office within ONE minute I was going to bolt out the door and go home because the humming noise from the computer was making me want to scream. Noise sensitivity REALLY bad.
Anyhow... I left there a new person. The treatment may have taken about 3 minutes at most? The results were instant. I didn't know anything about the stuff.... how much it cost.. how to spell it even... etc... when I left.
But I knew that I would have paid BIG bucks to have a bathtub full of it at home if I could have.
Anyhow... more to the story.. and suggestions the doc shared... but later as I am fading fast.
The name of the stuff is .. and I just did a quick search and pulled the first mention of it from the internet to put here... after the internet corrected my spelling...
Shoot. I can't remember how to spell it.. but I found some info about it here. Here it is...
I rarely get excited about meds, etc... but this.. in MY opinion.. was AMAZING!!!! I was 4-5 days into a 2 week herx.. and it stopped immediately... and it hasn't come back. NOTHING compares to this and the improvement I had.
Thought there would be side effects... NONE! Thought it might be short lived improvement.. It wasn't. Herx is gone.
Now I hear it is VERY cheap too.. according to that website info. I am thrilled about that too.
More info to share. Gotta go. Fading fast.
ANY comments from you all will be great.
This article is mentioning Parkinson's and Glutathione therapy... so I need to search for more info later.
can this be done at home because i cannot travel at all, and i would love something to help the herx! thanks so much for sharing!
Radha
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
i do this 3x week IV 2g per push.
it is a mircale as tincup says.
i wish more lymies would take it more seriously
it is a rapid blood detox.
derek
Posted by Alv (Member # 15192) on :
I used it in January 2007 when I had oral surgery and did not know that I had lyme.
Also I was taking homepathic formula at that time and artemisisn ( for parasites ) and had a BIG jerx in killing babesia.
My dentist biologist send me to have the coctail as he thought my heart could not handle it.YES it worked like a charma and kept me alive ..I still did not know that I had lyme ...was in suggestions moment ...but not sure..
I was herxing like hell on the high dosages of Enzymes that the doctor gave me.
AGAIN it works.It is just that i have to travel and drive to get it done.All I knew is helped me at that time.Now I know why was working!!!
Posted by Rianna (Member # 11038) on :
I do it every other day 2gm IV Push from Key Pharmay and yes its a miricle drug for Herx.
If you ca not do IV you can also get a nebulizer and nebulized Glutathione from Key pharmacy
Here is some info why it helps:-
Glutathione - Protecting the Nervous System from Neurotoxins
It is important to protect the peripheral and central nervous system from the toxins produced by Borrelia (lyme Disease).
Detoxifying and Excreting the Toxins of Borrelia Borrelia produce numerous toxic BLPs. These toxins are important because they trigger many harmful responses in the body including the inflammation that is damaging to healthy tissue, and cause the dysfunction of the immune system and Central Nervous System.
These toxins are fat-soluble lipoproteins and are very difficult to rid the body of. The body normally detoxifies fat-soluble substances in the liver and excretes them from the bile. Unfortunately, the toxins appear to be reabsorbed from the gut and circulate back into the body.
Treatments designed to aid the body in eliminating these toxins is a very important part of a complete and comprehensive Lyme disease therapy.
Glutathione is the most important detoxifying agent in the body to get rid of undesirable toxins such as BLPs produced by borrelia. It forms a soluble compound with the toxin that can then be excreted through the urine or the gut. The liver and kidneys contain high levels of glutathione as they have the greatest exposure to toxins.
The lungs are also rich in glutathione partly for the same reason. Glutathione is a small molecule found in almost every cell. It cannot enter most cells directly. Instead glutathione must be synthesized inside the cell from its three constituent amino acids: glycine, glutamate and cysteine.
The rate at which glutathione can be made depends on the availability of cysteine, which is relatively scarce in foodstuffs. Furthermore, the cysteine molecule has a sulfur-containing portion which gives the whole glutathione molecule its `biochemical activity', i.e. its ability to carry out its vitally important functions. Glutathione is the major antioxidant produced by the cell, protecting it from `free radicals' (`oxygen radicals', `oxyradicals'). These highly reactive substances, if left unchecked, will damage or destroy key cell components (e.g. membranes, DNA) in microseconds.
Oxyradicals are generated in the many thousand mitochondria located inside each cell, where nutrients like glucose are burnt using oxygen to make energy. (Mitochondria can be thought of as the batteries that provide the power for the cells to operate). High levels of oxyradicals are also generated from inflammation or immune dysfunctions such as in chronic Lyme Disease.
Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
Glutathione is absolutely not a joke, nor "alternative." Plenty of valid scientific studies acknowledge it simply for what it is. It's an important substance that helps the body detoxify substances we come in contact all the time in our natural environemtn (as well as unnatural in some cases.)
Taking IV Glutathione or Nebulized, is a great way to detoxify and help the liver and body remove the mess left behind as antibiotics kill the infections we're targetting.
It's not quackery, or silly. It's science, and it works.
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
My LLMD just sent me a note on Allimed. She said there is "no smell".
Stabilized Allicin has been shown to increase Glutathione (6SH)
Dr.Zhang's Allicin is actually Allitridi, which he says is the precursor to Allicin in the body. He states that it is actually the odor causing chemical that has the anti-microbial properties. (His STINKS!!!!!!)
I'm guessing that there may be some benefits to the odor-free versions, possibly just not as potent for infection fighting?
Thanks for sharing that info. I was wondering why the above statement was in bold italics in her note. Now I know. Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
So is Glutathione something you can only get from your doctor with a prescription?
How cheap is it?
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Glutathione is our #1 major anti-oxidant and it gets depeleted in lyme.
#2 steps in...melatonin...yawn! I need a nap. Serotonin converts to melatonin..down goes serotonin.
Our system is overproducing "free radicals" to oxidize the lipoproteins in Bb's cell walls. Basically it turns them rancid.
Specifically the free radicals hit linolenic and linoleic acids in the cell wall of Bb.
That makes it paramount to realize the Omega 3s and 6s (supps) are NOT GOOD.
They contain DHA, EPA *and LA* which is the *building block* of DHA and EPA...THESE ARE ARE OKAY (DHA and EPA) and are needed.
CLC is also okay (conjugated or joined LA)and is very good.
LA is the component that is NOT good. Bb is using it.
The lactobacillus that the researchers used in developing the new lyme vaccine *conjugates LA*. This is a PROBIOTIC that we all have...just not enough of that very beneficial bacteria...which we can harm via abx.
Too many free radicals (ROS) is very harmful to all of our cells.
But they are UP because they are trying to damage Bb's cell walls.
The body is trying hard to find an alternative route to destroy this pathogen.
Patches for pain, sleep, etc.
Posted by herxuk (Member # 15873) on :
Please answer this question.
I have no access to dr's , Iv's or any such.
Will NAC do the same thing ???? How can I get this on my own, without Prescription.
Not Iv's of course. I need an answer , The toxin's just hang around, and are making me very ill.
Posted by Dawnee (Member # 15089) on :
Man, even the patches are too expensive.
I don't understand why the oral capsules don't work??
Posted by herxuk (Member # 15873) on :
The Patches are a US site , I am a Brit.
PLEASE come back, with some advise and information.
Thank You.
Posted by Brainspud (Member # 16428) on :
Thanks for sharing all the info. I'm very interested in this glutathione now. Can you take it while you are on ABX treatment? Or pulse it? How much is reccomended? What is the website for the patches?
Posted by jl123 (Member # 15594) on :
I too am going through herx's and heart issues and feel my Doc does not get it.
Can anyone here send me a note about a east coast doc I could go to that is known for having the knowledge patience and time to de-tox me and look after my heart while I'm going through such hell? thank you, I know my doc would not give me any such help JL
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
Cool Lyme Too! Happy for you.
Posted by Brainspud (Member # 16428) on :
Sorry about that last post, must've been brain dead. I did find the website for patches. Thank you.
Questions: 1. Does glutathione reduce the effectiveness of ABX? I'd heard that it binds the ABX as well as the neurotoxins, so I've been avoiding it. But maybe pulsing it is okay?
2. If you can't get iv, what form is best: capsule, chewable or patch?
Posted by savebabe (Member # 9847) on :
I love glutathione!!! I have been taking it for years and it does help with herxes and pulling out all the toxins in your body.
Great Stuff!!!
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
What brand do you use, savebabe?
Posted by viva (Member # 8183) on :
It's also available as a transdermal cream (compounded). My LLMD sends prescriptions to Lee Silsby pharmacy. You use an activating cream and mix the glutathione cream with it, and apply it to specified thin-skinned areas (e.g., inner forearms, shins).
If you are sulfur-sensitive, you may have an allergic-type reaction, but there is an alternative formulation available (must be refrigerated).
Also, if you have a very high metals level, the glutathione will mobilize too much too fast. This is what happened to my husband after a 2nd application (the first dose was fabulous, though). LLMD thinks he will be able to resume after some good chelation.
If you are able to use it in one of the forms available, it is wonderful stuff!
Viva
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
1. If we destroy the pathogen, our body will stop producing ***excessive*** free radicals that are happening
in order to damage Bb's cell walls.
2. We normally make our own anti-oxidant enzymes and consume foods that supply the anti-oxidants to deal with "everyday" oxidative stress, but Bb is using up several of the "base" nutrients (amino acids) for itself. Bb is a major parasite.
2. Glutathione, is not a cure for this infection. It helps, but does not cure.
3. I believe the biggest problem is with Bb's PKCd (protein kinase C, *delta*) INHIBITOR. Kinases help to transfer phosphate groups. One amino acid that is not getting a phosphate group added to it is serine. If serine is not phosphorylated = kiss the HPA axis goodbye. Bb NEEDS this to happen.
Bb infects and disables our own defense cells. It sorta "robs" them of phosphate and uses that phosphate (2 actually) to do this:
glucose -> fructose via PFK...an enzyme called phosphofructokinase...which Bb is dependent on and is depleting.
This leaves the infected cells with not enough energy for themselves to signal the next cells to transmit/signal the RIGHT response.
The gamma-delta T cells (see delta? - remember it is being INHIBITED - serine is not being phosphorylated) are "wounded" and these are supposed to signal the alpha-beta T cells and ultimately CD4 T cells.
And about that SALP15 protein in the tick's saliva..it binds to CD4 T cells and makes them not work...
Allowing Bb to get a foot-hold.
Where is YOUR CD4 T cell count? These are the "generals" of the immune system according to Erlich.
4. How to give the infected cells more "energy" (photons which are absorbed by phosphate) PPi = delta = bisphosphate = pyrophosphate = a triangle shape - to counter Bb's PKCD inhibitor?
5.CONSIDER seriously far infrared at the 880nM wavelength.
6. And when you herx, count your respirations, pulse rate for 1 minute and check your saliva pH. If these are low, it looks to be metabolic ACIDOSIS and time to "alkalinize or die" (name of a book).
7. If you do not knock off Bb via supporting your OWN immune system cells which are needed to send the RIGHT signal to the next cells, then your need for glutathione will be ongoing to a huge degree. ROS (reactive oxygen species = free radicals) is kicking in as a back up - destructive to Bb's lipoprotein cell walls and a lot of nearby healthy cells are impacted.
Posted by jl123 (Member # 15594) on :
Marnie,
"6. And when you herx, count your respirations, pulse rate for 1 minute and check your saliva pH. If these are low, it looks to be metabolic ACIDOSIS and time to "alkalinize or die" (name of a book)."
Thats me, my doc just put me on Artimesinin and another anti-malaria herb and it brings my heart rate way down- even just a small bit. But I also have many other severe problems like severe fatigue 24/7, tachacardias- seems the co-infections have really gotten into my heart though stress and ekg are fine, indigestion, almost fainting. Any ideas? Just been to the emergency room for complete exhastion after a 10 minute walk in the heat. Now doc want to start me on anti-biotics but I think I should be in a hospital setting to guard agaist severe herx specifically breathing heart rate issues? thanks, JL
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Thanks, Marnie- Do you think those patches can really work?
Some people think that company is not quite on the level, judging from posts around the internet. I checked it once before a while back.
I have been using a product called ImmunoPro. It's a whey product... it's supposed to be a precursor to glutathione production.
It's not inexpensive but I'm not sure how much the other products cost.
Posted by micul (Member # 6314) on :
Yes, it's all true. Glutathione is a great detoxifier and it can really help you to feel better. However; it also has a down side. You have to pay a price for the benefits, and that price is that it reduces the effects of many abx. I stopped using it 2 years ago for this reason, as well as cutting out all mag supps. I believe that the heavy use of supps is what is keeping so many from getting well, or getting well quicker.
IMO it's better to detoxify through the use of exercise, saunas, and diet. These three will meet all your needs without interfering with the abx. Glutathione also helps pathogens to develope resistance to abx quicker as well. They use it too just like we do, so it's a catch 22...you will feel better temporarily, but you will pay a price for it. Here's a little cut and paste from an article on the subject:
The MICs increased 2.5-fold (from 8 g/ml to 20 g/ml) in the presence of ascorbic acid and 30- fold (from 8 g/ml to 250 g/ml) in the presence of glutathione, compared to that of the controls (Table 2), suggesting that the protective effect against streptomycin is more pronounced with glutathione than with ascorbic acid.
The enhanced protective effect seen with glutathione might be due to the dependence of the protective ability of the given antioxidant on its reducing power (6) or to the contribution of glutathione metabolism proteins involved in detoxification pathways in prokaryotes" Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Patches work?
I don't know.
The foot "detox" patches did not do anything for me or my son who tried them too as an experiment.
Re: other detox for severe herx ...personally, I would try Alka Seltzer Gold - follow directions OR activated charcoal (several capsules). Know ahead of time AC pulls nearly every drug out of the system too.
Years ago, activated charcoal was the 3rd component in the "Universal Remedy".
In an "ideal world" (which it is not), a "Meyer's" cocktail (IV) should help.
It is not just toxins released by the pathogen, but a significant increase in the inflammatory cytokines during a herx too.
Here is a similar situation:
DIAGNOSIS: Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction after IM Penicillin for secondary syphilis
DISCUSSION:
1. What is the Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction? How is it diagnosed and treated?
The Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction consists of the abrupt onset of fever, chills, myalgias, headache, tachycardia, vasodilation and mild hypotension that may occur one to two hours after the initial treatment of syphilis with antibiotics.
It is seen most frequently after the administration of penicillin. This reaction may have varying degrees of severity but is self-limited and lasts from 12 to 24 hours.
The pathogcnesis likely involves the lysis of spirochetes ***and release of inflammatory cytokines.***
Specifically, spirochete lysis has been correlated with the release of a non-endotoxin heat-stable paniculate pyrogen.
Tumor necrosis factor (TNF) levels have been shown to rise within 30 minutes of antibiotic administration, followed by rises in the concentrations of IL-6 and IL-8.
This pattern of cytokine release is similar to that in sepsis.
The Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction is a clinical diagnosis based on the characteristic constellation of symptoms in the setting of recent antibiotic treatment for an illness caused by spirochctes.
No radiologic or laboratory tests are required to make the diagnosis.
Treatment of the Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction is largely supportive; careful maintenance of fluid balance and close blood pressure monitoring are crucial. Historically, anti-inflammatory medications such as aspirin and prednisone have been used for treatment, but
***there is no evidence to suggest that they prevent or significantly modify the reaction.***
It is appropriate to resume antibiotic therapy following recovery from the Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction. Theoretically, the organism burden is lowered after the first dose, thus lessening the risk for subsequent reactions."
Herxus, NAC is a good precursor and I take 600mg daily, but it has never made me feel different. If you are hurting, an IV of the glut will pick you up exactly as TC describes.
TC, I'm glad it worked for you and you posted about it, cause it seems no one was listening to me.
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
how effective is the cream and where can one procure it?
Posted by Nutmeg (Member # 7250) on :
Is anyone using liposomal glutathione?
My new LLND put me on it and recommended I stop getting the IV pushes that another doctor had me doing. It's supposed to be more absorbable than glutathione capsules.
It's a sulfur-y liquid that does not taste very good, but I mix it with an ounce or two of pomegranate juice in cold herbal tea and add in some other powders and potions (supplements).
Just wondered if anyone has had success with it. I have only been on it a couple of weeks.
Thanks, Nutmeg
Posted by Rianna (Member # 11038) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by herxuk: [QB] The Patches are a US site, I am a Brit.
Key pharmacy deliver to the UK and if you can not do IV then they will send you a nebulizer kit ($80.00) and you glutathione for your nebulizer will work out at $80.00 a month delivered.
Rianna
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
TC, that's great that you found something that may really help! Sometimes it's like that - we're in such a state of low resistance that others treat us and we're like vegetables. I've been there.
A couple Lyme-treating physicians I saw recently said there are two consecutive liver enzyme detox pathways, and that glutathione helps the first one.
Given that little piece of info, I got liquid liposomal glutathione to try, which I just did recently, a very small amount.
And typical ole me, I had a reaction, with throat swelling and having to drink a ton of water to keep my throat open. This is common with me, which is why I always test such a tiny amount.
Upshot is that I'm going to get a full liver enzyme bloodtest soon to see what all ain't working.
So what I'd like to know, from anyone who knows, is what does it mean when someone reacts to almost everything they try with a throat-closing reaction?
And thanks, Marnie, for biochem class!
Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
Tincup,
Thanks for posting on this. Very interesting to hear.
Robin123,
Throat closing sounds like an allergic rxn, a potentially serious one.
Have you seen an allergist? Perhaps there is some additive chemical to most medicines, and could you be reacting to those, the secondary ingredients? If you have insurance, worth a trip to an allergist (they are mighty expensive w/out insurance.)
Posted by lymemomtooo (Member # 5396) on :
Another source of info might be some of Gigi's old posts. Dr.K uses this. I am not 100% sure since my memory is not great but think he also cautions that it may bring mercury out of hiding . lmt
Posted by Lymeorsomething (Member # 16359) on :
Marnie, do viruses rob our cells of phosphate like Lyme or is that a different ball game?
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
It appears each different pathogen uses different nutrients from us...whether it be a virus, fungi, or bacteria. So, obviously co-infections greatly impact us.
Notice I said nutrients not ONE nutrient/element.
For example, Bb uses P,C,O,H,N,Mn,Zn...
cysteine, histidine...the list goes on.
Wait a sec, I will pull a file.
I'm back.
Here it is:
What does CHONP stand for?
Carbon Hydrogen Oxygen Nitrogen Phosphorus
***(5 main elements of living organisms)***
Further, the acronym CHONPS may be used which is:
CHONP (Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and phosphorus)
***plus (sulfur)***,
which make up 99% of all living systems.
No anagram is possible! I tried - to help me remember.
Now about sulfur...
We know Bb uses CO2 (carbon fixation route), so there is carbon and oxygen.
We know too that one of Bb's protein locks onto (cytochrome C + NO)...so there (and many other places) is N = nitrogen.
We know Bb is using P (2) to do this:
glucose -> fructose.
Hydrogen...is used in lots of the pathways Bb takes...that gets complex.
That leaves S...sulfur.
Does Bb use sulfur???
This might be important to know:
"B. burgdorferi is one of the few pathogenic bacteria that can survive without iron, having ***replaced all of its *iron-sulfur* cluster enzymes*** with enzymes that use manganese, thus avoiding the problem many pathogenic bacteria face in acquiring iron."
Mn...manganese is bad news:
Abstract Manganese has an emerging role in the control of oxidative stress resistance in pathogens such as Staphylococcus aureus.
About sulfur...
Bb is a "happy camper" when cortisol levels go up. More sugar for one..."He" loves to stress you out.
But there is a *counter to cortisol*. It is called DHEA and it is stored as DHEAS...sulfur added.
Research DHEA...!!! See what it does, how it works, when levels drop, etc.
This should NOT be taken if someone ALREADY has cancer...breast and prostate esp!!!
So...testing YOUR level is the first step. And if it is low...get a mammogram or if a guy, get your PSA levels checked. Ideally a blood level test of these adrenal hormones (saliva is not quite as accurate)...the RATIO of DHEA/S to cortisol is important...very.
Then whether or not to supp. to increase this adrenal hormone is something you need to DISCUSS WITH YOUR DOCTOR.
There are natural, OTC things that raise this level and those would likely really stir things up (do you catch my drift?)!
There are other ways too to increase SO2 (sulfur dioxide). There are ways we halt "fermentation" when we make wine, for example.
NOT orally, but perhaps in a foot soak?
Use your search engine and research DHEAS.
Those who have a hard time handling sulfur/sulfa drugs...there might be an underlying reason?
Posted by aiden424 (Member # 7633) on :
Those who have a hard time handling sulfur/sulfa drugs...there might be an underlying reason? [/QB][/QUOTE]
I'm really allergic to Bactrim. So does that mean I can't take glutathione??
Kathy
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
No Kathy. I am allergic to sulfa drugs and I can take glutathione IVs just fine. I can't speak for the other forms of glutathione. I always read that the oral forms are not effective.
Posted by aiden424 (Member # 7633) on :
Thanks luvs2ride, I wonder if the other forms of glutathione other then IV are safe if you have an allergy to sulfa drugs. I don't really understand how they are even connected.
Kathy
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
IV 2 gram glut pushes 12$ each from infuserve america. get a rx from your dr. get some butterflys and push them in, have a friend do it.
my dr was kind enough to give me the name of the company as it is by FAR the cheapest 2g of glut you can buy in a push.
good luck all
derek
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Thanks TC. I know luvs and others have raved about it here. I'd like to try it.
Does anyone know if insurance will cover it?
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Woah... lots of replies! Good to know that folks are talking and thinking about it... and sharing their info. Thank you.
I know it was posted about here in the past. Problem is... there are so many things suggested... and so many new ones... I can't absorb it all... I don't have access to many, if any of the things (cost & travel)... and I am not into doing more "new" stuff if the antibiotics are doing their job. Plus there aren't enough hours in the day to do what I am doing AND learn about all the newer things.
Plus I have a LONG history of being told stuff will work.. and it doesn't for me... for whatever reason.. and it usually makes me worse.
Soooooooooo..
Had I not been snookered into doing this by the doc... I wouldn't have done it. Good thing the doc knew when to snooker... eh?
I can't answer any detailed information ... chemical, organ system, where to get it... etc... cause I just don't know. That is why I asked for comments. Posting will help me and others.. so please do. What you all have posted already has educated me... and I thank you.
Sorry too that I was sooooooo exhausted the other night that I couldn't finish my post. I will try to add a few things I remember in the event it can help someone.
1. Doc said not to bother with any other kind (oral, IM, etc) BUT the IV push. Doc said, I believe, it is not going to work as well... or at all... from the impression I got. Why? I didn't ask.. sorry... but my thought is they wanted me to save my money and not bother with the other forms of it.
2. Thankfully someone here shared where to get it and the cost (thank you kindly for that). Looks like it is about $12.00 ... so not bad at all. Tutu.. I think that info was just above your post.
3. I don't know if it is covered by insurance.... as I just left the office without even asking. I usually do stupid stuff like that.. then catch up on the next trip with the money. I'm NOT the brightest bulb on the tree... but they know I'll be back.
4. I was told up to once a week it could be done. But it has been over a week or two and I am still good. Plan to try it again next month... during the herx.
5. Don't know if it interferes with antibiotics, etc... but truth is.. I don't care. If I thought I had a chance at this late date to be cured by any treatment.. and this interfered... I'd think twice.
But I won't be totally cured at this point... so if this stuff can stop the horrible stuff.. and allow me to stay on the antibiotics I need... my thought is that is REAL good.. because without some relief in sight, my habit has been to stop treating till the misery clears enough so I can re-start.
Keep in mind I have ended up in the hospital as many as 7 times in one year, just from severe herxes... and I don't want to go there again.
6. If there is a problem using it with antibiotics ... I can't see how.. but don't know... then I can pulse my antibiotics 3 weeks on.. one off... which is good for me anyhow.
7. I can't say this treatment will help everyone. I can say it helped me BIG time. It is MUCH worth the money in my opinion... and since I saw no side effects and no risks (it is in the form your body makes already)... I'll try using it again.
8. I don't know if a naturopath or anyone else can administer it... but if your LLMD is far away maybe look locally for someone just for this purpose? Even getting it once a month or every 3 months while at your LLMD.. if that is your schedule.. may help.
9. Oh the tree story. I liked this.
This G stuff and how it works can be compared to a forester going into the woods to find trees that need to be cut down. Not all trees will be removed from the forest.. but some will need to go.
The forester isn't the one who cuts the trees down in this story. He/she is in charge of marking the ones to be removed with ribbons so the lumber men/women can know which ones they should take out... and which ones to leave.
This G stuff acts like the ribbons that the forester puts on the trees. It goes in your body and marks with ribbons the toxins to be removed. That is all it does.
Then ... when your body sees the ribbons... your body says, woo hoo!
Once the woo hoo is announced... the lumbermen in your body come get the trees (toxins) marked with ribbons (G stuff).
Marnie.. are you laughing at my scientific explanations yet? HA!
Anyhow.. that is the docs easy to understand version of what the stuff is and how it works.
And my bet is you thought I made up that silly story, didn't you?
Sooooooooooooo.. please keep posting and sharing. ALL information welcome. I do hope this will encourage others to try it. As sick as I get.. and as against all things new and not understood as I am... and the fact I am famous for being a whimp too...
I gotta say I give a big thumbs up here.
Will keep you advised if anything changes. In the meantime, I am slap hap happy!
Posted by Melanie Reber (Member # 3707) on :
I'm so pleased you are still feeling better. I was worried.
Hey...about the ribbons...that is what Tree-hugger does. Posted by Nutmeg (Member # 7250) on :
It's my understanding that glutathione IVs are not covered by insurance because they are not FDA-approved. I used to get the IVs from a holistic MD, and his staffers had a big rubber stamp they imprinted on the receipt that said "Not Covered By Insurance".
Just going by what my new LLND said, the liposomal glutathione is an improvement over the other oral forms because it is better absorbed. I have not looked into it a lot myself. She told me to stop the IVs and just use the liposomal, so that's what I'm doing. She has Lyme herself and said that stuff saved her.
I was happy to stop the IVs because I hated them. They often hurt because my only good vein is in the back of my hand, a sensitive area. It seemed like a good idea to save my veins for when they are really needed.
I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's results with glutathione in its various forms.
Nutmeg
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Sounds great, nutmeg! I checked into it. Looks good but I have to research it further.
It's only about $20 more than the ImmunePro RX whey.
I don't think I'd want to give myself an IV. I don't mind giving myself a shot of HGH - but you can do that into your stomach.
IVs are a bit more dangerous.
Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :
Is liposomal glutathione the 'L-glutathione'?
How do you get it administered?
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
Not covered by insurance. Not adverse to antibiotics.
Read the article I posted previously. It tells you how vital glutathione is to our life. We make it naturally, but some of us are defective in our ability to produce enough.
In fact, studies have shown that people who live long, healthy lives have high levels of glutathione and people like you and me have low levels.
Glutathione will help everyone who is toxic. It will not interact with any other medicine.
$12 a dose and doing it on my own schedule would be awesome but I'm not sticking a needle in my vein thank you. I'll just have to fork up the difference to a doctor.
I don't think every doctor will administer glut but I haven't really checked that out.
My doctor says glutathione suppositories are just as effective as IVs. They will certainly be more convenient but I have not yet tried them as she hasn't yet gotten them in.
Anyone who is toxic should get great benefit from glut.
Luvs
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
TC said:
I know it was posted about here in the past. Problem is... there are so many things suggested... and so many new ones... I can't absorb it all... I don't have access to many, if any of the things (cost & travel)... and I am not into doing more "new" stuff if the antibiotics are doing their job. Plus there aren't enough hours in the day to do what I am doing AND learn about all the newer things.
Herein lies the perfect example of why we should not be bashing others who are trying alternative means of healing.
Apparently, somewhere along the way, TC's doctor has decided to branch out beyond antibiotics in an effort to help his/her patients.
Antibiotics alone are not going to cure some of us and after awhile, they will make us very toxic in and of themselves, not to even mention the toxins from the bugs and metals, pesticides, herbicides, exhaust fumes, etc we encounter every day.
Additives to food, hair color, on and on. Our immune systems are not functioning normally and our bodies are not eliminating the toxins we ingest, inhale, absorb. The toxins are building and building.
Antibiotics will never remove the toxins. Diet, exercise, detoxing programs, vitamin therapy to replace depleted stores all contribute to our ability to detox. Glutathione is the train track upon which the train must run.
I can't state emphatically enough how sick I was in April 06 when I met my wonderful integrative doctor. He was not LLMD, but he understood toxicity.
I was swollen from head to toe with severe rheumatoid arthritis. Understand, RA is not a disease. RA didn't cause me to be sick. RA is just a title to a disorder....cause unknown. That is unknown to most rheumatologists. There are plenty of doctors and research to show a clear connection between bacterial and viral infections and RA. Plenty.
Thank God for the integrative doctor who right off the bat gave me glutathione and lipostabil injections.
Thank God he tested me for food allergies and we eliminated the foods my body was reacting too.
Thank God for alternative options and this board that brings so many of us together to share what works for us and thank God for those here who are willing and able to venture out and try new things and then report them back to us.
These pioneers have helped me focus my efforts in the right direction and avoid some other things that did not prove to work.
Keep bringing new information and results to this board and let the bashers go to lymeneteurope where they can pat each other on the back for their superiority.
Luvs
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Okay...Forest (Gump)...Why such major herxes? What abx. or treatment are you doing so agressively?
As I understand it...TNF alpha marks the tree, our own antibodies/antibiotics start to destroy, releasing toxins (lipoproteins) which ROS (free oxygen radicals)oxidize.
Lyme is like a box of very BITTER chocolate. Okay to eat just one or two, but eating the entire box all at once is NOT GOOD.
Go slow...go very slowly.
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
HA!
Marnie you are a hoot!
I am doing VERY VERY low dose antibiotics.. 1/4 the normal dose.. and still herx very badly.
BUT.. I was sick a LONG time with NO treatment and the load has to be high. Plus I am worn down after years of fighting... and there are at least 9 different infections we've detected..
So I am one bill ball of confusion and infection.
Keep up with the "Hints from Marnie"! MUCH appreciated.
Luvs to ride...
Yes. Good points. Thanks for your input.
Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :
Okay, I found the answer in Wikipedia as well as in several healthcare books.
Usually beneficial for people who smoke and /or drink. Also, good detox for the liver.
NAC (N-acetylcysteine) is helpful in that it provides the building blocks to form glutathione in your body.
Sorry if I am repeating what people have previously stated.
Bye!
Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :
So...if it is proven it doesn't absorb or benefit from oral transmission....WHY do they sell it in the stores?
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
I don't think I could tolerate being in treatment for Lyme and Co-Infections without having the I.V. glutathione.
I get a "detox drip," which is a modified Myer's Cocktail with glutathione added at the very end.
I also take precursors in supplement form that the body needs in order to make glutathione like, L-Glutamine, Cysteine, Glycine.
I tried going a number of weeks without the I.V.'s due to cost. And I did not do as well as when I have the I.V.'s.
While it doesn't completely eliminate my herxes and also does not completely eliminate the symptoms of existing infections, it is making a marked difference in how I'm feeling.
Anything I can do to bolster my body's weaknesses and help it to deal with the rigors of Lyme treatment is a good thing, IMO. So, for the moment, I'll continue with them.
Posted by Nutmeg (Member # 7250) on :
Sparkle, thank you for the Readisorb liquid liposomal glutathione link. That's the brand I'm using, which I got from my ND.
Sizzled, yes, the Readisorb glutathione is reduced l-glutathione. The good thing is that you don't have to get it administered by anyone. You just mix 1/2 to 1 teaspoon into a drink and get it down! It's not very yummy, which is why I put it in pomegranate juice mixed with cold herbal tea to help hide the taste.
Nutmeg
Posted by lymeHerx001 (Member # 6215) on :
Tincup I am very happy that the glutothione worked so well for you.
Glutothione is produced in the body to detoxify many chemicals and endotoxins in the blood.
I have been looking into this for years.
My LLMD once had some left over Glutothione and he did about 4 IV treatments for me.
Unfourtunatelly I noticed next to nothing@!@@@
I notice more from the sauna.
There must be something more going on then just that one detoxing chemical in my case.
Its very sad but it has become my duty as a living and breathing human to get well!
Get well or die. Posted by lymeHerx001 (Member # 6215) on :
Tincup I am very happy that the glutothione worked so well for you.
Glutothione is produced in the body to detoxify many chemicals and endotoxins in the blood.
I have been looking into this for years.
My LLMD once had some left over Glutothione and he did about 4 IV treatments for me.
Unfourtunatelly I noticed next to nothing@!@@@
I notice more from the sauna.
There must be something more going on then just that one detoxing chemical in my case.
Its very sad but it has become my duty as a living and breathing human to get well!
Get well or die. Posted by Anneke (Member # 7939) on :
Has anyone else out there gotten very sick with Glutathione? Can't tolerate it? Does anyone understand why?
Anneke
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Siz said.. "So...if it is proven it doesn't absorb or benefit from oral transmission....WHY do they sell it in the stores?"
Hmmmmmmmmm????????
The same reason a chicken crosses the road. Because it can?
BAD Tincup! That wasn't a decent answer.. but truth is.. I don't know why. Wish I could answer that for you Sizzzzzzz... but since I can't... hopefully others can. I'd like to know too.
Lymeherx.. Thanks. I am glad it helped me... and sorry you didn't see much benefit. I wish we could explain it.
I am so tired right now.. but did you say something about the sauna... or did someone else?
I am sorry I can't remember. BUT.. I sweat too and like it hot... but it doesn't get me feeling nearly as good as this did. Don't get me wrong... sweating helps... very much.. but this added G stuff really did me well. But without the sweats... I would be REALLY rough.
Anneke...
I don't know that either. So sorry. But I would like to hear someone take a stab at it.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
I would venture a guess that if the IVs did not have much effect then you probably are not deficient in it.
Annekke, you are the first person I have heard of having an adverse reaction. Perhaps you have adequate levels? Maybe a bad batch? How many treatments did you have and what was your reaction?
Sizzle, lots and lots are things are sold on the market that are ineffective.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
BTW, some foods that aid the body in production of glutathione are:
Quoted from the article I posted earlier in this thread
Foods that are high in glutathione include horseradish and cruciferous vegetables such as cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage, kale, and brussels sprouts. Dietary supplements that have been demonstrated to predictably raise blood glutathione levels are the glutathione precursors whey protein,5,27,28 and N-acetylcysteine (in a dose of 1,800-2,400 mg daily),12 or (as mentioned above) glutathione itself (recommended dose, 1-2 grams daily). A prudent person would probably use a combination of these modalities. Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Anneke, did you get sick from IV or oral glutathione? I had a throat-closing reaction to the oral one. Well, I usually have a throat reaction to just about anything. Except chocolate. Jus' kiddin'.
One guess: that it has something to do with liver enzyme pathway involvement? Lyme doctors told me there are two phases for clearance, and glutathione is involved with the first one. Something about a sulfated first phase.
Guess I'll learn more about it when I see them again. In the meantime, I'm glad something's helping you, TC.
Posted by Radha (Member # 8464) on :
if you cannot get the IV, do you think the cream or the capsules would help the herx too? which is better the cream or pills? thanks for any info Radha
Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :
YES!!!
"Lots and lots of things are sold on the market that don't do a thing."
Buyer beware!!
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
So sizzie
Do you have specific experience with glutathione you want to share or are you just heckling again?
TC did not use OTC glutathione so what is your point here?
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Raising Glutathione Levels Therapeutic Dosages A typical recommended dose of oral glutathione is 50 mg twice daily. However, as noted above, when glutathione is taken by mouth it is destroyed.2 Therefore, no matter what the dose, it won't make any difference.
It is possible that some glutathione may be absorbed if it is held in the mouth and allowed to dissolve, but this has not been well studied.3
A more promising method for raising glutathione levels in the body involves taking supplemental cysteine or antioxidant supplements. Evidence suggests that cysteine (often supplied in the form of whey protein, which is high in cysteine) can raise glutathione levels in people with cancer, hepatitis, or HIV.4-7
In addition, because vitamin C has overlapping functions with glutathione, vitamin C supplements may spare some of the body's glutathione from being used up, thereby increasing its levels in the body.8,9 The antioxidant supplement lipoic acid appears to raise glutathione levels as well.10-15
Other supplements that might raise glutathione levels include N-acetylcysteine,16-19 glutamine,20 methionine,21 and S-adenosyl methionine (SAMe).22
luvs2ride, I've never 'heckled again' before so I don't know what you mean.
Just asking a simple question. If you can't answer politely then just scroll on by.
Thank-you and hope for wellness.
Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :
P.S. Tincup answered politely, as always. Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :
Radha, everything I've found in books and on the internet supports the IV route.
It is stated that oral transmission has not proven effective.
I don't know about the creams or patches, though.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Thanks for the info, TC. I ...duh... missed the post above mine about the $12. Very reasonable price, so no need for ins to cover!
But I'm like someone else who posted about having puny veins. I'd run out in a flash. Maybe once a month would do the trick for me??
Posted by ByronSBell 2007 (Member # 11496) on :
I take high doses of glutathione everyday of the week IV and it's never saved me from a herx... I wish it would though
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
sorry to hear that byron, perhaps you should try other means like charcoal, csm, or chlorella.
it doesnt save me from a hrex either dude, sorry to say. just helps.
good luck
derek
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Double edge sword:
Glutathione infusion *potentiates* glucose-induced *insulin secretion* in aged patients with impaired glucose tolerance.
IL 1 Beta esp....is impacting/blocking the insulin secreting cells...you will see WHY in a sec.
Glutathione = more insulin secreted = lower glucose levels, but then...to counter lower glucose levels (we need an ongoing supply of glucose too)....
Gluconeogenesis will kick in and the glucose (stored as glycogen) and amino acids stored in fat will occur...and then Bb will have the amino acids it needs to build its cell walls and glucose...
And back up goes glucose.
Glucose -> insulin -> glucagon
Insulin and glucagon maintain/control just the "right" amt. of glucose in our blood stream. Insulin lowers the amt. of glucose and then
glucagon stops insulin (secretion)which would drop the blood glucose level too far.
Glucagon is the brakes for insulin.
***Insulin (glutathione stimulates its secretion) ACTIVATES PFK...***
But...now the "Why":
***Bb is dependent upon PFK*** to do this:
glucose -> fructose.
Need to know this:
"In vitro, cytokines like interleukin-1-beta (IL-1-B) and tumour necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-A) inhibit insulin release and can destroy islet B-cells."
Once again...Bb is infecting and damaging our own DEFENSE cells (several of them) from the get-go and disrupts the signalling between the defensive cells.
The worse thing about Bb is not the fact that it is PFK dependent, but that it has a PKCD INHIBITOR.
Protein kinase C, delta form. Kinases transfer phosphate groups. Bb is INHBITING phosphate transfer.
If serine is not phosphorylated (add phosphate) this disrupts the HPA axis.
Cortisol up...DHEA(S) down.
And Bb is a happy camper.
Cortisol raises glucose levels and impacts the enzyme in (subsequent) mast cells that converts histidine to histamine.
Bb has zinc fingers = histidine and cysteine bound by zinc.
Amino acids are building blocks of proteins. In order to "undo" Bb's lipoprotein cell walls, we have to change/alter those amino acids protein chains. ROS primarily hits LA in Bb's cell wall.
DHA, EPA and CLA are OKAY and are needed, but LA is not a good idea to supplement. Bb USES LA as a building block...and that is what ROS (free radicals) hit.
Personally, I'd rather support my own defense cells by upping their "energy".
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
I just read about acetyl-glutathione in Dr. Singleton's book. This is from a link on his site:
According to Dr. med. Gerhard Ohlenschl�ger�, Glutathione should not be taken, but rather S-AcetylGlutathione, because it is much more stable and accesses our cells, whereas Glutathione can react as early as in the stomach, with other substances.
Additionally, taking S-AcetylGlutathione leads to no negative 'reverse-connections', i.e. our own production of Glutathione is in no way negatively influenced.
In progressive aging, the regenerating enzymes of the oxidised Glutathione are increasingly excreted.
Therefore, aging people (all ages) should have their Glutathione-levels measured and if necessary take a supplement.
Side-effects:
In some cases it can lead to a lack of trace-elements (check selenium and zinc levels) accompanied with a possible lack of magnesium and potassium.
In diabetics it can alter the amount of insulin required, so that a regular blood-sugar-test is required.
How high should the doses be?
This depends on the current lab tests and indications.
In diabetics the high blood-sugar-levels (Ketone-bodies) can react with Glutathione, making higher doses of S-AcetylGlutathione necessary.
A lab-test should be carried out at regular intervals.
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
Institute for Medical Virology, Johann Wolfgang Goethe University Hospital, Paul-Ehrlich Str. 40, 60596, Frankfurt am Main, Germany. [email protected]
Intracellular glutathione (GSH) plays an important regulatory role in the host response to viral infections.
Replenishment of intracellular GSH is a desirable yet challenging goal, since systemic GSH supplementation is rather inefficient due to a short half-life of GSH in blood plasma.
Further, GSH is not taken up by cells directly, but needs to be broken down into amino acids and resynthesized to GSH intracellularly, this process often being impaired during viral infections.
These obstacles may be overcome by a novel glutathione derivative S-acetylglutathione (S-GSH), which is more stable in plasma and taken up directly by cells with subsequent conversion to GSH.
In the present study, in vitro effects of supplementation with S-GSH or GSH on intracellular GSH levels, cell survival and replication of human herpes simplex virus type 1 (HSV-1) were studied in human foreskin fibroblasts.
In addition, in vivo effects of supplementation with S-GSH or GSH on HSV-1-induced mortality were studied in hr/hr mice.
In cell culture, viral infection resulted in a significant decrease of intracellular GSH levels. S-GSH efficiently and dose-dependently (5 and 10 mM tested) restored intracellular GSH, and this replenishment was more efficient than with GSH supplementation.
In mice, S-GSH, but not GSH, significantly decreased HSV-1-induced mortality ( P less than 0.05).
The data suggest that S-GSH is a suitable antiviral agent against HSV-1 both in vitro and in vivo, indicating that this drug may be of benefit in the adjunctive therapy of HSV-1 infections.
PMID: 14624358 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :
Thank-you, Alig!
So there ARE different 'glutathiones'.
Reminds me of the discussion about 'magnesium'.
Good discussion led to revealing many, many, many types of magnesium supplements and to which ones were the most absorbable/beneficial, etc.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
TINCUP....
Would you consider putting "glutathione" somewhere in the title, please??
cj was trying to find your link and it would not come up in a search. I got lucky and found this link inside another link on glutathione.
But for future searchers it would be great if "glutathione" were in the title somewhere so the info could be easily located.
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