Dear Dr. Donohue: Your Lyme article was dreadfully inaccurate. Syphilis is known to cause congenital infection, and Lyme disease and syphilis are spirochetal diseases. The bull's-eye rash of Lyme does not occur in everyone, and it disappears on its own. Symptoms can be missed in the early stages, when cure is possible. There should be a retraction for this article. -- F.J.
Dear Dr. Donohue: Your information on Lyme disease leads people to believe they are hysteric over this disease. That's like telling them it's in their heads. You imply that after taking antibiotics, a person no longer has Lyme disease. Wrong. Lyme is a bacterium, and once you get bitten you do not get rid of the disease. You are better off not writing about Lyme, and our newspaper can help by not putting that information out to the public. -- M.M.
Dear M.M.: I appreciate both your points of view. However, I stand by what I wrote.
The bacterium causing Lyme disease is Borrelia burgdorferi; the one causing syphilis is Treponema pallidum. Both are in the same order of bacteria, but they are different genera and cause different illnesses. Congenital infection with Borrelia has not been demonstrated. Infection during pregnancy may cause stillbirth or miscarriage, but that "may" should be capitalized. Treatment of Lyme disease results in cure in most cases.
The bull's-eye rash of Lyme does not occur in all cases, but it occurs in enough to be considered a criterion for the illness.
The original letter writer is the mother of an adult daughter who suffered many years from many symptoms. The daughter consulted a practitioner who, upon laying eyes on her, told her she suffered from Lyme disease, as did her son. That is the hysteria I referred to. Surely you don't want people wrongly thought to have an illness without any evidence of it.
Not that it matters very much, but I have spent a great deal of my adult life studying infectious diseases and am board-certified in infectious diseases. I have a master's degree in public health and tropical medicine. I do understand Lyme disease.
Posted by ItCantBeTrue (Member # 17151) on :
I think he should read ALL the info on Lyme- not just the studies pushed by IDSA.
Where did he get that Lyme isn't congenital? There are studies to prove it is.
Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
Give me his e-mail so I can send him the studies on Lyme Disease that demonstrate persistent infection. All 100 + of them.
Posted by fatigued15 (Member # 6437) on :
He only shows a mailing address.
Dr. Paul Donohue PO box 536475 Orlando, FL 32853-6475
Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
Is someone willing to print out what I give them and send it? I'll e-mail to you if you're serious.
I'll send the studies on persistent infection.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I would do it, but my printer is on the blink too. This guy is doing a lot of damage to people.
Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
Anyone else? I just added 5 more studies today alone, indicating persistence of the infection. I also found notes on "Persistent Co-infections." That was the first I've seen of that, but then again I wasn't looking, and the interesting thing is that it came from someone who supports Feder. He denied chronic Lyme, but vehemently supported co-infections as a possibiliy for why patients treated for Lyme Disease, do not recover once there is no longer a presence of borrelia.
At any rate, that's more data.
Posted by njlymemom (Member # 15088) on :
you can send it to me and I will mail it for you
I just now put the paper down - this dr has written about lyme before and never gets it right
I will pm you with my email address
Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
I've sent you the studies. This guy is going to eat crow. I hope it will open his eyes to the situation.
Posted by njlymemom (Member # 15088) on :
thanks - I recvd the email
I am having a little trouble reading it. I will print it out and have another go at it.
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
I just want to say thank you to Metallic Blue for working so hard for all of us, by keeping track of so much Lyme information.
Thank you!!! You ROCK!!!
Posted by sunshinyday (Member # 14337) on :
Ditto...
Thank you Mike!
Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
I have some suggestions for you to make, whoever decides to write this. Keep it concise. Short is best. Don't recommend he investigate, he won't. The information must be "spoon fed" -- when you send the studies, choose just one or two convincing studies, and send the remaining studies as a separate e-mail.
Let me break down his letter step by step, to counter him. Then whoever writes the letter can take just a few bits and pieces, and reformulate a "professional" response. Mine is a little cynical, and that's reflected in my mocking tone. Mocking him in a paper would not be appropriate.
quote: The bacterium causing Lyme disease is Borrelia burgdorferi; the one causing syphilis is Treponema pallidum. Both are in the same order of bacteria, but they are different genera and cause different illnesses.
Correct, both are in-fact in the same order, and different genus, however both illnesses share much in common as spirochettal infections. Both cause multisystemic infections of the entire body, including the heart, vascular system, nervous system (including cognitive and psychiatric), eyes, joints, muscles, digestive system, and skin. Both causes what are known as Jarish-Herxheimer reactions when treated, which can cause serious -- even life threatening problems when handled inappropriately. The Tuskegee Syphilis Study, Pelkola Syphilis Study, Public Health Service Syphilis Study certainly demonstrated that when some individuals were finally treated late into their illness. Treatment alone, could kill these patients.
1: Dermatol Ther. 2008 May-Jun;21(3):205-9.Syphilis and borreliosis during pregnancy. Hercogova J, Vanousova D.
Dermatology Department, Charles University Prague, Czech Republic. [email protected]
Syphilis and lyme borreliosis have similar etiologic, clinical, and epidemiologic characteristics. Both are multisystem infectious disorders spread worldwide. Their clinical course can be divided into three stages and as to spirochetal origin, antibiotic therapy is similar too. Taxonomical relationship of Treponema and Borrelia could explain also congenital manifestations well-known in syphilis, and suggested in borreliosis. Therapy of pregnant women with syphilis and lyme borreliosis should follow the same strategy.
-- End Study --
Both continue to be controversial in regards to persistent infection. Sequestration of spirochetes of Pallidum have been reported in the eye, the CNS, as well as the inner ear despite adequate antibiotic therapy. CSF parameters are expected to normalize within 2 years. Failure to normalize may warrant retreatment. Sound familiar? A number of studies have found that same problem with borrelia burgorferi. As you can see, those studies have been provided in the follow up attachment.
quote: Congenital infection with Borrelia has not been demonstrated.
False: "In 1985, researchers published the first proof of maternal-fetal transmission of Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb): A baby died shortly after birth and Bb spirochetes were found in the infant's spleen, kidney, and bone marrow. (Schlesinger P, Duray P, Burke B, Steere A, Stillman A. Maternal-fetal transmission of the Lyme disease spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi. Annals of Internal Med. 1985:(Vol 103) 67-68.)" - CAL
quote: Infection during pregnancy may cause stillbirth or miscarriage, but that "may" should be capitalized.
The medical literature is littered with descriptions of cases of miscarriage, stillbirth, neonatal deaths, and congenital Lyme disease.
Study: "We report a culture positive neonatal death occurring in California, a low endemic region. The boy was born by C-section because of fetal distress. He initially appeared normal. He was readmitted at age 8 days with profound lethargy leading to unresponsiveness. Marked peripheral cyanosis, systemic hypertension, metabolic acidosis, myocardial dysfunction, & abdominal aortic thrombosis were found. Death ensued. JAMA. 1986 Jun 27;255(24):3394-6.
quote: Treatment of Lyme disease results in cure in most cases.
Interesting statement to make given the disease is so controversial. Are you sure that's not just your opinion? Perhaps "Most" should be capitalized? The CDC reports 20,000 new cases of Lyme per year, but as a consequence of under reporting and difficulty in diagnostics, the the CDC believes that number to be as much as 200,000 cases per year. Proponents of Lyme Disease being cured easily cite a 95% success rate. If we take 20,000, and generate a 5% percentage of cases that aren't cured, we end up with 1000 people still ill. Now, let's speculate (since it's only fair to reciprocate) that the number is closer to 200,000 cases, or somewhere between 100K to 200K. That's 5000 people, respectively, and 10,000 people respectively, who remain infected, inspite of adequate treatment. And if we consider the fact that this is only "one year" we're viewing, how many actual cases of difficult to cure Lyme Disease infections are we looking at? Since the diseases confirmation as a bacterial infection in 1982 by Dr. Burgdorferi, and an average estimate of 100K cases per year, over 26 years thats 2 million 600 hundred thousand people who have been infected. What is 5% of that you ask? 130 thousand people walking around with "uncured" Lyme Disease that you claim should be cured.
quote: The bull's-eye rash of Lyme does not occur in all cases, but it occurs in enough to be considered a criterion for the illness.
Interesting opinion, but the reality is that a multitude of studies have demonstrated that the rash takes on a wide variety of manifestations beyond a bulls-eye rash, which is easily overlooked. I won't even discuss the numerous studies indicating the lack of a rash all together.
quote: The original letter writer is the mother of an adult daughter who suffered many years from many symptoms. The daughter consulted a practitioner who, upon laying eyes on her, told her she suffered from Lyme disease, as did her son.
Interesting, you minimize the practitioners competence as though you were actually present during the diagnostic process. You weren't there, therefore you don't know.
quote: That is the hysteria I referred to. Surely you don't want people wrongly thought to have an illness without any evidence of it.
Interesting euphemism you use there, manipulating the letter writers intent by suggesting his moral compass is broken if he were to question the possibility that the diagnosis of Lyme Disease were actually correct as opposed to your opinion.
Hysteria is quite an unfortunate word to use, because if you had a child that was sick, surely you don't want people to wrongly accuse you of not caring by not investigating the full extent of an illness which currently has two standards of care. See what I did right there? I can be manipulative too chief.
quote: Not that it matters very much, but I have spent a great deal of my adult life studying infectious diseases and am board-certified in infectious diseases. I have a master's degree in public health and tropical medicine. I do understand Lyme disease.
You're right, it doesn't matter, because clearly if you're responding to letters, ignoring the possibilities presented, even after all of that experience and education, then clearly you have a lot to learn. You don't understand Lyme Disease, you understand your dogmatic archaic view of a disease that's continued to expand as knowledge has been accumulating.
If this were a court case, the evidence available supporting your position has not found "beyond a shadow of doubt" That Lyme Disease isn't a persistent infection in some cases warranting extended treatment.
Posted by Wimenin (Member # 15294) on :
It never ends does it. The hypocrisy, the idiocy, the sheer ego orientated blubberings of drs who really dont know, and dont care so long as they make themselves sound super human and God like.
If its not the hmo, newspaper drs, or the cdc, its the insurance companies labeling abx treatment as unnecessary. Its pathetic lunacy at its best.
Welcome to the wonderful world of lyme!!
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by njlymemom: . Info is only the opinion of those who publish the site.
HUH???
Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
What?
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I didn't know Lymenet had an official spokesperson!! Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
I couldn't help pimp slapping him. He just came off like such a douche bag. The least he could do is be professional and stick to the facts, even if those facts that he's clinging to obscure the truth. I'd rather that, than him being an arrogant jerk off.
I don't like people with IQ's lower than mine talking down to me.
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