What if we could get regional Lymie representatives, who could then collect a list from all of us of possible qualified eligible practitioners, then take a territory and contact them all with a beautifully written, heartfelt and entirely scientific powerpoint presentation accompanied by handouts and references.
This presentation would be prepared in advance collaboratively, so the reps would just approach the potential practitioners and give them the pitch. I mean, practically everything we need is already right here in Lymenet.
Then we could get all the chosen ones together for a conference in which DR W and other experts in ART and Homeopathy could teach them all they need to know to hang thier Bionic 880 shingle.
Included with the price of the conference will be all necessary equipment and treatment protocols, which will be like flow charts with lots of possible branches.
Then we can pay them to treat us. Or maybe 10 of us can sponsor each future practitioner by paying thier way to the training in exchange for being their first 10 patients treated (aka guinea pigs.)
For the practioner, it's their chance to:
1. Make a real difference in Lyme Disease treatment 2. Be on the cutting edge of ground breaking treatment 3. Get rich and maybe a little famous
For the patient, it's our chance to:
1. Get better 2. Get treatment locally and affordably 3. Be part of helping to cure the masses by coordinating this
I mean, this sounds so simple and doable, it just needs organization. This is not some five year, tons of meetings and red tape kind of thing. This is a let's-just-get-this-done kind of thing.
Why not????
I can't help, I'm too sick. But what if oxygenbabe, Gigi, and a few others formed a group and broke down these tasks? Each state or area would have an outreach person who would follow up on leads given by all of us. The presentation could be put together in a weekend and disseminated to the reps.
Roles:
1. Overall coordinator 2. State/regional reps 3. Presentation / marketing development 4. liason to Dr W 5. Arrange for other needed trainers; such as ART, homeopathy, etc 5. Facilities arranged 6. Equipment arranged 7. Hotel accomodations, etc
This is so doable. Just like any other conference or training. Only this could change life for ALL OF US.
IF 10 people going to Germany put their money and time into this instead and still got their treatment at the end, we all benefit. Sounds like Dr. W has already offered to come to the states.
What do you all think? Who is ready to volunteer?
I can give names of possible practitioners in CT and RI, and MA.
Guys, I really think it's time we take matters into our own hands.
WE CAN DO THIS.
WE CAN DO THIS!!!!
Posted by FreakShow (Member # 16200) on :
Sounds like a great idea Tracy, I am in!
[ 26. October 2008, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: FreakShow ]
Posted by nyjohn (Member # 15361) on :
it is a great idea... i *think* we were trying to get something like this together before...but it was more difficult than we expected!
i do have one nd/md interested in the INFO on the bionic...i tried with another practitioner who is well experienced with ART, Euro biomedicine, and other methods from the Klinghardt school, but he wanted nothing to do with anything outside of his already-used protocols (which is really too bad). i tried with a world reknowned homeopath as well...he said no.
so it will be some work, but i am totally into helping out in any way i can as far as contacting people goes. i have already distributed the brochure to 2 other doctors, one is an llmd, another is the nd/md i mentioned. so that is a start for the hudson valley contingency!
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
I just posted this on the other thread:
"...I am also wondering about importing a unit to Canada (the manufacturer confirmed they will ship to me) IF I could only find a MD or ND who would assist with treatment.
I have 3 small children and it would be very hard to be away from them for 3-4 weeks.
Anyone from Toronto/Southern Ontario region please PM me if they are aware of a practitioner who might be interested."
If there are other people near me who want to start a group, I'm in. I also have no problem being the one to buy the machine.
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
Are they not interested due to doubts it works, fear they'll lose their patients if they get healthy, liability concerns, or other reasons? Any feedback from this perspective?
quote:Originally posted by nyjohn: it is a great idea... i *think* we were trying to get something like this together before...but it was more difficult than we expected!
i do have one nd/md interested in the INFO on the bionic...i tried with another practitioner who is well experienced with ART, Euro biomedicine, and other methods from the Klinghardt school, but he wanted nothing to do with anything outside of his already-used protocols (which is really too bad). i tried with a world reknowned homeopath as well...he said no.
so it will be some work, but i am totally into helping out in any way i can as far as contacting people goes. i have already distributed the brochure to 2 other doctors, one is an llmd, another is the nd/md i mentioned. so that is a start for the hudson valley contingency!
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
I think what we are going to need the most are people to organize this and pull it all together, people who have some time and energy to work together on the big parts. Obviously we will need Gigi to be a key player. Nanadubo would be awesome too.
Posted by nyjohn (Member # 15361) on :
quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: Are they not interested due to doubts it works, fear they'll lose their patients if they get healthy, liability concerns, or other reasons? Any feedback from this perspective?
quote:Originally posted by nyjohn: it is a great idea... i *think* we were trying to get something like this together before...but it was more difficult than we expected!
i do have one nd/md interested in the INFO on the bionic...i tried with another practitioner who is well experienced with ART, Euro biomedicine, and other methods from the Klinghardt school, but he wanted nothing to do with anything outside of his already-used protocols (which is really too bad). i tried with a world reknowned homeopath as well...he said no.
so it will be some work, but i am totally into helping out in any way i can as far as contacting people goes. i have already distributed the brochure to 2 other doctors, one is an llmd, another is the nd/md i mentioned. so that is a start for the hudson valley contingency!
i wish i could tell you the reason... one, i think, just is not wanting to change his developed methods. the other, is a nd that practices classical homeopathy only, and wasn't interested...too bad.
the other two that accepted the info: 1 nd/md/homeopath 1 md/llmd well versed in ondamed and alt medicine
and another fellow who treats people with rife and helps people get rife machines for themselves. he is not a doctor. i cannot give out his name (just a heads up).
i wish more docs would be jumping on this!
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
One thing we would need is a list of practitioners who are eligible to perform treatment.
MD, RN, NP, Acupuncturist? Chiropractor? Physical Therapist?
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
I'm exploring this Frequency Specific Microcurrent targeted towards Lyme. I only had one treatment, but I want to pursue more aggressively. I definitely herxed after. I felt like I had a bad flu all day long and most of the next.
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
It isn't FDA approved here yet, I was just thinking about that again.
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Does it need to be?
Is the Biotenser, Lightworks, all that kind of stuff FDA approved? What are the rules around that? Where is the line drawn on what has to be approved and what doesn't????
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Are these things FDA approved:
HBOT Rife Machine Chi Machine
Here's one thing I found but it doesn't really answer my question:
About FDA Product Approval The Food and Drug Administration's regulatory approaches to marketing approval of the products it regulates are as varied as the products themselves. These differences are dictated by the laws FDA enforces and the relative risks that the products pose to consumers.
Some products -- such as new drugs and complex medical devices -- must be proven safe and effective before companies can put them on the market. The agency also must approve new food additives before they can be used in foods. Other products -- such as x-ray machines and microwave ovens -- must measure up to performance standards. And some products -- such as cosmetics and dietary supplements -- can generally be marketed with no prior approval.
At the heart of all FDA's medical product evaluation decisions is a judgment about whether a new product's benefits to users will outweigh its risks. No regulated product is totally risk-free, so these judgments are important. FDA will allow a product to present more of a risk when its potential benefit is great -- especially for products used to treat serious, life-threatening conditions.
FDA reviews the results of laboratory, animal and human clinical testing done by companies to determine if the product they want to put on the market is safe and effective. FDA does not develop or test products itself. The Agency does this pre-market review for new human drugs and biologics (such as vaccines, blood products, biotechnology products and gene therapy), complex medical devices, food and color additives, infant formulas, and animal drugs.
FDA has streamlined its review process for medical products in recent years to help speed important new treatments to patients. For example, the average review time for an innovative new drug is now only 6 months, and some have been approved even faster.
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Here's More FDA stuff:
The Medical Device Amendments of 1976 to the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act established three regulatory classes for medical devices. The three classes are based on the degree of control necessary to assure the various types of devices are safe and effective.
Class I - These devices present minimal potential for harm to the user and are often simpler in design than Class II or Class III devices. Examples include enema kits and elastic bandages. 47% of medical devices fall under this category and 95% of these are exempt from the regulatory process.
Class II - Most medical devices are considered Class II devices. Examples of Class II devices include powered wheelchairs and some pregnancy test kits. 43% of medical devices fall under this category.
Class III - These devices usually sustain or support life, are implanted, or present potential unreasonable risk of illness or injury. Examples of Class III devices include implantable pacemakers and breast implants. 10% of medical devices fall under this category.
Exempt - If a device falls into a generic category of exempted Class I devices, a premarket notification application and FDA clearance is not required before marketing the device in the U.S. However, the manufacturer is required to register their establishment and list their generic product with FDA. Examples of exempt devices are manual stethoscopes, mercury thermometers and bedpans.
Section 510(k) of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act requires those device manufacturers who must register to notify FDA their intent to market a medical device. This is known as Premarket Notification (PMN) or 510(k). Under 510(k), before a manufacturer can market a medical device in the United States, they must demonstrate to FDA's satisfaction that it is substantially equivalent (as safe and effective) to a device already on the market. If FDA rules the device is "substantially equivalent," the manufacturer can market the device. If the device you are researching has been in commercial distribution before 1976 or is substantially equivalent to a device already on the market, you should search FDA's 510(k) releasable database.
A primary safeguard in the way FDA regulates medical devices is the requirement that manufacturers must submit to FDA a Premarket Approval (PMA) application if they wish to market any new products that contain new materials or differ in design from products already on the market. A PMA submission must provide valid scientific evidence collected from human clinical trials showing the device is safe and effective for its intended use. If the device you are researching is life sustaining or presents a potential, unreasonable risk of illness or injury, you should search FDA's Premarket Approval (PMA) releasable database.
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Does it just apply if you are marketing the product?
"Recently Approved Devices
Why does FDA approve medical devices before they can be sold?
Before granting approval to manufacturers to sell their new devices, FDA science experts review the manufacturer's data from investigational studies to see if:
the product does what it claims to do effectively, and does not present any unreasonable risks to the patient."
I use EMDR equipment when I do therapy, including a TAK device, others use a lightbar; I don't know if these are FDA approved but they are widely used.
My husband does BioFeedback; don't know if that is FDA approved either.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
i would like to get in on this in some role.
too tired right now long shift
let me know what role u want me to have
i can do basically anything
derek
im in NE pa and i have a chiro who would do it
Posted by Ocean (Member # 3496) on :
Tracy, Sounds like a fabulous idea! I had no idea that Dr. W was willing to possibly come to the states. I know of a DC and MD in OH who may be interested in learning. I'm an RN and would certainly help if possible. I told hubby the other day that if I get well, I'm going to become a Lyme Literate Nurse Practitioner.
Let me know if there is anything that I can do. I can write letters or whatever, my husband and family would also be willing to I am sure.
Take care, Ocean
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Yes HBOT is fda approved for various indications. You can use a treatment "off label" once it is approved, generally.
It would limit which practitioners would feel comfortable using it. I was just remembering that. Some might do it on the Q.T. (very quietly).
Posted by jl123 (Member # 15594) on :
Isn't Dr. Cowden already using a light device? Wouldn't he be best placed/most open to take on a new one? thanks, JL
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
quote:Originally posted by jl123: Isn't Dr. Cowden already using a light device? Wouldn't he be best placed/most open to take on a new one?
He might not be interested in something that could possibly make "The Cowden Protocol" obsolete. Who will buy all those pricey tinctures then?
Best bet might someone without deep financial ties to the "Lyme World".
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
this is not something that i think can be accomplished efficiently on a thread here on LN.
i think what we need is to access who is truly interested in being a part of seriously setting something like this up and then go from there.
something of this magnitude could potentially revolutionize a great deal of mainstream treatment.
similar to hbot treatment centers or ondamed, ect, only this you do not need to have a liscense for i believe.
dr w is kind for offering to come here, and i think if this is the real deal, which is too early to tell if it is or not, potentially many people will become interested for right and wrong reasons.
i think it wold behoove us lymies to keep the therapy and the drs who will use it within grasp as it could easily **** into a financially emphasized campaign which i do not think any of us want it to become.
i personally am seriously interested in helping to set such a thing up, but i dont know if i am willing to put my name on the machine and therapy as well as my drs until i have tried it myself.
we can all go about this one of two ways.
we can go to someone's house who has the machine such as six, gigi, nano, ect, and see what it does, or, wait and go to germany next year.
from all the positive reports it does seem like a wonderful therpay but again, i dont see advocating it blindly until i see what it can really do.
so i guess my questions are this:
tracy-
is this something that can wait until next year?
do you agree we should assemble a group of people who are SERIOUSLY interested in helping set this up and THEN go from there?
thanks for listening.
tracy and others you can email me if you like
this has the potential like i said to become a pretty big therapy. we do not want it to get in the wrong hand for the wrong motives, ect
cheers
derek
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
another idea, and probably FAR more feasible, is just getting ONE unit shipped here, (NE USA) training ONE or two practicioners, and giving access to whoever paid for the unit.
if 5 or 10 of us in the NE (up and down the E coast) got one, and picked a central location for it, found a practicioner at this location willing to operate it for a fee, it would totally work.
so heres the questions
tracy, ect, are there more people in the NE who would mlike to throw down for this?
i know for a fact my chiro who is near phila, pa would gladly volunteer to run the machine. if not him anyone we all would select would be fine.
i dont think driving 1-8 hours for most of us would be an issue since its much less expensive than a trip to germany...
who is interested???
i can throw down 1k tomorrow to make this happen.
we need 4 or 5 more, a practicioner which i can offer, and the rest will come to fruition...
derek
Posted by CD57 (Member # 11749) on :
Pardon my ignorance, just jumpping in here...but...what is the Bionic 880 and nosodes supposed to do....does it kill, or let the immune system do the kill? Does it increase detox, etc? I am unclear on what it does, and how it affects the other infections in your body.
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
ny john,
sent you a pm on a question about a potential practitioner.
i'm in the ny area myself. i like the idea of getting new englanders/east coasters together to find a seasoned md/nd, art, homeopath or other practitioner, and pitching in for one machine.
however, i also think derek and o-babe's comments must be considered seriously.
this is definitely an "on the qt" type treatment.
seriously. probably similar to successful cancer therapies. they are not widely publicized and FDA approval won't happen.
so, it has to be handled carefully, i think.
m
Posted by sunshinyday (Member # 14337) on :
I also have a chiro that is inbterested. But he is concerned about the legalities .
The safe way is to form a "CLUB" All experimental devices used at own risk. Those wishing to belong may chip in on equipment or some arrangement.
People would need to work with someone for detox and testing help.
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
come to think of it, could dr. w's training be learned by a non-licenced practitioner?
m
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
I believe you only need FDA approval if you are selling a device, not using it.
I agree 100 percent with Derek. I would be more than willing to fly to six's house if she would have us!!!....to give it a try.
My idea of getting Dr W over here and having a widespread training is that we could get a lot of people thoroughly trained in all the components, and then have the treatment accessible.
I have no doubt we can get enough money to buy a machine for the East Coast; I can pitch in a thousand too. But I was thinking it wouldnt' be too difficult to get this more widespread.
Or we can just start it that way. I just want to be sure that the person doing it understands the totality of the treatment.
Posted by sunshinyday (Member # 14337) on :
Tracy - please PmM me, your mailbox is full!
Gail
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
quote:Originally posted by sunshinyday: I also have a chiro that is inbterested. But he is concerned about the legalities .
The safe way is to form a "CLUB" All experimental devices used at own risk. Those wishing to belong may chip in on equipment or some arrangement.
People would need to work with someone for detox and testing help.
Yes, this is what I'm thinking though, is that we need to get practitioners to do it all in one, just like Dr.W does. I am overwhelmed by trying to find multiple practitioners. So why can't people be trained to do everything he does, or at least find the right people to work with them?
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Much better than trying to pm me!
Posted by UnexpectedIlls (Member # 15144) on :
You know I'm on board!
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Do you know how much it costs to see a Dr. C.? At $600. per hour, you can take two trips to Germany and get treated by Dr. W. fo and bring a Bionic back. At $600. per hour, you have nothing yet, just talk and test and test and test, and no treatment and still the same as you were when you first walked in the door. Maybe you are still on your bicycle trying to get to his office!
Your first exam/consultation costs an average of Euro 185 in Germany. Each treatment with the Bionic is Euro 85. Biocom testing, LTT, lab. The rest depends on the patient's condition and what is needed, in form of short IV following each treatment, chiro treatments, other structural treatments, etc. all within a very sound price range.
All of you know what you had to put out to be treated by your LLMD's.
Lyme Disease is what it is - life insurance for doctors and utter misery for us. Until now. I am not naive enough to think they are about to bring their revolving door to a screeching halt. That is their first reaction, unspoken, when they hear about this treatment. I have heard everything from "sit in the sun", forward, to dead silence and a handwave - "just another one". Reaction is no different than the one I first got from a number of people when I first talked about a 'successful treatment' on this board. It really is not that simple.
Yes, you can wipe out the Lyme, but most people have other toxicities to deal with in order to rid themselves of all symptoms, if lucky.
People may call the German system "socialized medicine", which it is not. I call it medicine for the people; it is still affordable.
I think we will have to come up with a better idea. I don't have any yet.
You East Coasters have a better chance of getting a low cost flight, hopping overthere, staying a week and come back with the instrument. It will be easier on a small scale basis to find one willing practitioner who is knowledgable in all the alternative modalities and most of all understands that most the time more than Lyme has to be treated.
I am very careful whom I would offer my instrument for treatment. There are too many unstable enough to cause problems when things do not go right or perfect. That is difficult in a group setting.
Please note that even one of the few LLMD's practicing in the same city as Dr. W. (filling his patients with mostly abx) is not interested in the Bionic treatment. Dr. W. talked about it to me. It takes guts to do what he does in that type of climate.
The multiple toxicity factor is becoming more of an issue every day - and I think Dr. W. is recognizing that too. He is not a detox expert as is Dr. K. or Dr. C., but he is starting to find that it is becoming more and more of a problem.
I immediately raised the question of metal toxicity. Yes, the photons are of tremendous help to mobilize heavy metals, which is very difficult by other means. Most people who think they got rid of it all would be surprised if they knew how much is still in their body. Let's face it, we are very toxic and therefore we are sick.
Today l in 25 has cancer - the number ten years ago was a lot more pleasant. l in 90 kids have autism - very few people talked about it ten years ago. And maybe the critters are becoming more resistant. They are outsmarting us and getting the upper hand.
From the other thread - talking about training doctors:
"The training on the Bionic is most simple -- it does not take any training. All that is needed is deciding the frequency to set, timing, intensity - all that is determined with energetic testing.
It is the other "alternative" knowledge that is so needed to put it to use to get the desired results.
Energetic testing, more than "is this good for me" is necessary to be able to lead to the decision what actually is the missing factor - to find what should be a priority to treat and then how to treat it. It helps to have some understanding of homeopathics. The doctor should really be knowledgable enough to figure out whether he is dealing with a situation that is made worse by other existing conditions.
Finding these other existing conditions and having an eye for them - is the important thing. There are problems that the Bionic will not fix because others have to be addressed first. And some others need to be addressed extensively even after the Lyme infection has been dealt with.
I don't think people coming back - with symptoms remaining - is as much a problem of the Lyme as it is other existing conditions that are the root cause or one of the root causes remaining. Some can be addressed with the Bionic, some cannot.
Cleary, it eradicates the Lyme with this protocol and as far as I am concerned also the co-infections that many worry about. My husband had all of them, but does not have a single live one left that I can find.
I also check him frequently, to see that with the other treatments we are doing now for non-Lyme problems, that there is no Lyme popping up. For the same reason Dr. W. has people coming back regularly once a months for four months after the big treatment to make sure everything as far as Lyme is done with.
The doctor should also have any eye for the different levels where healing has to happen, i.e. the emotional/mental. Dr. W. addresses that if necessary. This is the case with many chronically ill and some seem to hold on to their toxins for other reasons.
All this is what I have observed over many years with Dr. K. and now with Dr. W.
These are just my thoughts re any doctor going overthere ``for training for a couple of weeks".
There are many other doctors in Germany who are using the Bionic for treatment, and any doctor interested should probably get a wider perspective of other applications for photons But some may not.
I don't think this is a training a doctor can get in a couple of weeks with Dr. W. It took some of the good Klinghardt therapists several years to develop an understanding for the different contributors to Lyme (way beyond co-infections) or for any chronic disease. It is not learned overnight, and therefore results may be varied. People hoping for a quickie should be aware of that.
It is the same old story that I have tried to convey on Lymenet for many years. We would like to hit this disease - bang bang - but for many people it does not work that way. I am finding that out every day when I treat my husband. Lyme has many legs. And I would hate to think that if a doctor is not prepared in this way that the Bionic will then, as so many other modalities, fall victim to ``it doesn't work''. All I can tell you is that it does work to get the Lyme! It helps later on for the release of other toxins, because a major load is out of the way. It definitely works best for people who have already done some of the necessary clean-up work before the treatment - .
Shifting neurotoxins, especially the heavy metals, can be very misleading and/or damaging if a doctor has no experience or awareness with that, especially when using photons.
The friend I treated here is doing fine - I cannot find any Lyme or co-infection, which I did not treat separately. I have all the nosodes. But he has done the dental work, the emotional clean-up stuff - no Mom, no Dad, no home - And now he has to help the toxic metals find their way out as well as unload fungi and mold. Maybe the photons will take care of most, in his case. We will wait until I decide with energetic testing if it is time to do it. Right now, it is not. But it will be nice when all is finally gone.
Oxy probably knows him - he was in Mexico with us.... You would not know him if you saw him today, even though he has a way to go.
Take care."
These are - very quickly - my thoughts.
Posted by Annxyz (Member # 9097) on :
I am not optimistic about a doctor's involvement in this . I sound jaded , but in the long run it might be cheaper to buy a DA-- machine yourself than depend on a doctor's "treatment " ( cha ching ) .
I would be game to go in with some other people on purchasing a machine and think we would have as good a chance of curing ourselves as we would with a doctor . So far I have had twelve years of this misery and I was ill for ten before I got the right diagnosis .
I have been wondering if maybe a cheaper version of this machine will come down the pike eventually and we can each treat ourselves . I believe sparkle mentioned a $900 light works machine . I wonder if it operates on the same concept as the bionic .
Honestly , if I was sure that this would work for me I would beg , borrow, or steal the funds to buy a bionic myself . It is just scary to think of such an enormous purchase that might not work , given how financially stressed this illness leaves a person.
I do believe it works for some, but to risk $6K for something that sdoes not make you well is scary .
Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
Just want to clear one thing up. Dr. W did not offer to come here per se. He asked if I thought he might come someday and I said "yes".
He replied that he did not think American doctors are interested in energy medicine. I told him that some are and that I thought it would be a good idea.
Nothing more was said by him about it.
I am not trying to put a damper on this, it has to start somewhere but I do have concerns similar to what gigi expressed.
If you put this in the hands of a well meaning practitioner, are they prepared to deal with everything that can be unleashed?
Even Dr. W is not an expert in detoxing. He does not see some of the things in Germans that we present. When we were kids possible playing with lead paint chips and getting our mouths filled with amalgams, those things were already outlawed there.
My naturopath is interested in the machine but even so, I have a problem with his knowledge and ability. I'm not saying that I know more than he does but I am saying he knows what he knows.
For example: his continued recommendation for me to deal with heavy metals is to do chelation therapy. This may work fine for some but I had a horrible, horrible experience with it. When I told him about it and that I did not intend to do it again, he had nothing to offer.
The bionic880 is extremely powerful. We are not sitting around using a flashlight. I would want to make sure that if I was under someones care using the bionic880, that they knew exactly how to deal with whatever comes up or out
If you have someone that can do this with or for you then certainly put them on your list. I have to agree with gigi that this is not something that can be learned in a couple of weeks.
An acupuncturist I saw had a small and not very good quality rife machine. With the desire to help those with lyme, they were allowed to use it whenever they wanted. Nice gesture but no real skill or knowledge of the device from what I could see.
There is the potential for this kind of thing to happen. Well meaning practitoner? Absolutely but I was not comfortable with it.
I do not know where to go with this. Maybe a longer commitment from a doctor or practitioner willing to go there and be his shadow for months? The machine is simple enough to use, it's knowing what to look for as the person is undergoing treatment. I'm sure there are those out there that could do it, I'm just cautious.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
I do not want to be selfish with my Bionic 880 .... HOWEVER, and this is a big however, I would be concerned to let someone use it who has not had treatment in Germany first.
The reason is, my Lyme Disease seemed to be in control. I was feeling pretty good many days, but really bad other days. I might have a day or two in bed, but I would then be active a few days.
For me, when I used the Bionic, I felt really horrible and strangely so after the first treatment.
I would be afraid to let someone who is so sick they spend most of their time in bed and not have the IV's available.
PLUS, honestly, it would be cheaper for you to come to Germany and see Dr. W than it would for you to stay in a hotel in Cincinnati for three weeks (I don't have any spare bedrooms .... six kids ya' know!).
If you don't buy a machine, it's just not that expensive compared to what we're used to. I shared a room, so it's about 23 euros per day ..... sharing a car between three of us 241 euros ..... flight $800 ..... Dr. W should be less than 2000 euro (I know someone who had ozone, scenar, and other treatments I did not have who was 2100 euro).
As far as the Lightworks (I own a Lightworks), now that I'm here, it's NOT the same. It is the same nm ... the same wavelength. Some are having good results with the Lightworks .... but it's not the same.
You would really, really need a doctor's supervision.
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
A club is an interesting idea.
There are practitioners here using energy medicine, photon therapy, etc, but working under the radar. These practitioners may be talented already and some have trained in Europe or Germany anyway.
For me, the stress of going over to Germany by plane, with chemical and mold sensitivities up the wazoo, makes Germany a last ditch option, one I would take *if* I felt enough people had gone over, gotten substantially better, and stayed better (no placebo effect) which is why I'm grateful people are trying it and blogging about it, so I can really get a sense of whether it is worthwhile for me at some point.
Anyway I'm going to put together a document from various threads on lymenet, and some I've saved, and try to make it readable and interesting, along with a few of the blogs, sometime over the next week or two when I have time. Then I will email it on to some practitioners I know. I'm keyed in to a wide network of practitioners because of the work I do.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Just wanted to add one more thing ..... there are Lyme bacteria vials Dr. W uses that we cannot buy. He is not allowed to let them out of his office. When I asked about treating my family, he said I could do it with the nosodes, but it will take longer. Just something else to consider with this type of planning. Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
i concur that going before hand may be the best solution.
that said, who is interested as i already asked in the NE area to chip in and get a machine?
if i go next spring (which as of now based upon preliminary results seems to be a good option) i will gladly bring home a machine and split it's cost with others in my area (east coast) who are interested in its use.
so...who is in? it could be 1k, or as low as 50 bucks, depending on how many people agree to it
derek
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
ok, i'm going to say what some of us may be thinking..
if any of us purchase a 10,000 dollar machine, we are going to want it on hand for ourselves and our families at all times. i know i would and would only trust or share it with close friends who came to live with me. unless it is such that, after a period of time, one clearly does not really need to use the machine that often; but noone has experienced this long enough to know if that is true.
then there's re-infection and constant toxin exposure issues, ect, ect, ect... and the point that this is a powerful therapy, and i would not want to be responsible for someone going into a detox crisis.
if some of us "go in on" a 10,000 dollar machine, i can see problems already with this, even with the best-hearted most level headed patients.
any one of us or our family members go into crisis, haven't got the treatment going just right, or run into any number of complications.. well.. you can see where that would go.
other than traveling to germany, i suspect the only next best way is to encourage or find a practioner who is willing to educate themselves on doc w's work here in the states, and that practitioner, i can pretty much guarantee, would work on the qt with this.
the best solution, of course, would be if the manufacturer of this unit or one exactly like it would come down in availability and price.
there are a great deal of us, a very great deal of us, who cannot go to germany for treatment for more reasons than one. which is upsetting.
at the same time, any and all reports from all who do go can help us understand photon therapy and it's effect on body/disease/toxins so that we may find a way to pursue any benefits there are to be had. honest open reports, with consideration that many of us do not have access to dr. w. would be most helpful.
i know if i invested in the trip to germany, i couldn't help but be swayed to emphasize the best of things, that is human nature. i appreciate mojoey's candor, and would like a balance of the same with some information that can help others understand this therapy.
i never was able to see doc k. in seattle, but i read every word every patient, including gigi, of course, and every word he has written. i was able to use this information to greatly assist in my own family's healing. but, alas, my son is very sick again, so am still in need of more answers.
i look forward to scott's blogs as well.
mo
Posted by UnexpectedIlls (Member # 15144) on :
Mo makes a really good point.
I am also worried about what Tracy just brought up in the Bionic thread... This is the very thing I think and ask questions about... There seems to be NO answer to this which is also a concern.
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
I am very confused.
On the one hand, Gigi said it's so simple to use, people don't need training.
But on the other hand, I'm hearing that practitioners will not be able to get enough training.
So if we have the machine here, are you saying it won't do us any good, because we don't have the IVs, chiro, etc that DR W does in Germany?
If that's the case, then it sounds like we HAVE to go to Germany to get treated, and bring back the machine to help keep the buggies away, right?
But how can we treat our families if they haven't gone to Germany and gotten all the necessary components?
I feel like I am hearing two opposite things and I don't know how to make sense of this. How could GiGi treat her friend without all the other stuff that Dr. W does?
I don't get it; I'm really confused. If it's so easy that GiGi's granddaughter can do it, why can't we train practitioners here to do it?
Also, I thought the total cost of going to Germany was about %7500? Plus how much for the machine? I don't get euros, so if you can say it in dollars, that would help.
It would have to be a heck of a lot cheaper to get it here, and also would solve the problem of people too sick to travel so far.
Gigi said:
"If you put this in the hands of a well meaning practitioner, are they prepared to deal with everything that can be unleashed?
Even Dr. W is not an expert in detoxing. He does not see some of the things in Germans that we present. When we were kids possible playing with lead paint chips and getting our mouths filled with amalgams, those things were already outlawed there."
If this is the case, how could any of us possibly use this on our family members? And if Dr W doesn't do anything differently with these things and isn't an expert at detoxing, why not have a practitioner here do it? What is the benefit of going to Germany if he doesn't know what to do with the things unleashed either?
Posted by UnexpectedIlls (Member # 15144) on :
I do see a lot of confusion too, and contradiction... It makes it way too confusing for all of us to get the correct picture
Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
Tracy -
Gigi said:
"If you put this in the hands of a well meaning practitioner, are they prepared to deal with everything that can be unleashed?
Even Dr. W is not an expert in detoxing. He does not see some of the things in Germans that we present. When we were kids possible playing with lead paint chips and getting our mouths filled with amalgams, those things were already outlawed there."
Gigi didn't say that - I did.
This is getting confusing I'm sure. I'm not sure I can help make it less confusing.
I can only say that my personal choice was to go there and be treated by someone who has much experience with lyme and the bionic880. I decided that if the lyme was gone I could and would deal with the rest.
I could have tried to get the machine shipped here and try to find someone who would use it.
I do not have the experience and expertise that gigi has. She is confident and comfortable treating her husband.
Yes, it is simple enough for a child to operate but my choice was to be under a doctors care.
I think it might be as simple as personal choice on how you want to proceed. Some may have total confidence in the ability of their practitioner to figure it out and be treated. Some may want to go to Germany and be treated there.
I'm really trying to help but I just don't know how to answer some of this.
Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
P S - Dr. W does not see the same metal toxicity in the Germans as he does with Americans. So it is not so much that he does not know how to deal with toxins, he is not used to seeing what he sees in us.
He told me this right away. He also said that although EMFs are starting to be a big problem in Germany, they are a much bigger problem here.
I wanted to be rid of lyme first and foremost. I have not found anyone in this country that could do that.
I'm sure I can find plenty of doctors here that can help with amalgams and the detox process.
I did not go to Germany for any other reason and to be rid of lyme and as a bonus I also got rid of yeast and my gloomy attitude.
If you check back to my post before I even left for Germany, I said if I could get rid of lyme I would be perfectly happy to come home and detox and work on any collateral damage there might be.
Posted by njgirl14 (Member # 14174) on :
Just jumping in with a thought. Maybe gigi would have a comment on this since she knows Dr K???
Doesn't Dr K's nurse come to NYC several times a year? Would she be interested/qualified to learn this treatment? If this was an option, east & west coast would be covered.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
I will now repeat again:
The Bionic 880 can be operated by a child who knows how to read numbers and has the dexterity to push tabs.
A practitioner who has the protocol can handle the machine - without any training.
But unless he is skilled in different modalities of alternative medicine, he is going to be stuck the first time he encounters a strong reaction by a patient following treatment with photons and nosodes. Sound energetic testing is a must, because we do not have much else that is always reliable.
Doesn't anybody grasp what I have been screaming on Lymenet for the last many years, that all of us are sick not only because of a Lyme infection, but because we had a toxic body before this and a weak immune system. These problems stem from different causes and probably started much earlier, way before the Lyme exposure.
Heavy metal toxicity, chemical toxicity, exposure to mold and fungi, stressful and unhappy lifestyle, living in an unhealthy environment emotionally, exposure to excessive EMF, poor dental health including wisdom teeth sites (with or without wisdom teeth) and toxic root canals. There are more.
Only one of these is enough , unless it is dealt with, to mess up any chance for a total cure from a chronic ailment. Yes, you will get rid of the Lyme infection with the Bionic when done to protocol -- that has been proven over and over, but the still remaining problems I listed in the last paragraph (incomplete list) have to be attended to. Either before or after the Bionic Lyme treatment.
There is hardly a chance that you can drop all your symptoms in 3 weeks --- . It took probably a lifetime to accumulate the toxins, and it will take longer for the body to find a balance again and to be able to get rid of all.
Any practitioner who is not experienced in alternative solutions (or even orthodox who understands the alternative approach or integrated approach to chronic disease can do this without getting trained on the Bionic, as long as the protocol for Lyme is followed. It takes no training to run that machine. But the rest of the knowledge is usually acquired over a long period of time by a practicing doctor - who is capable of thinking outside the box.
I see a lot of these detox reactions on Lymenet. Many are not a herxheimer, and not a genuince healing crisis. They are merely shifting of toxins from one body compartment to the other, and clearly not solely due to Lyme.
If I lived in an endemic area, I certainly would not go overthere and come back without the Bionic. Lyme is not getting less, and probably also becoming more resistant. Get rid of your DEET! It is backfiring.
Prices all over the world don't seem to be coming down at this time. But the Euro/dollar exchange is more beneficial for us here. So now you can get the machine for much less than what we paid.
You need a machine and a local person who understands the pitfalls of heavy metals and the rest of the most common neurotoxins, and is smart enough in energetic testing to find what is left behind that must be treated. I learn more every day, and keep detoxing one layer, layer after layer, until all symptoms are gone. The Bionic is a great tool for this, but there are many others. And only someone who has developed an interest in these modalities might be able to guide you through the jungle.
The handling of the Bionic and the protocol can be learned by reading it once or twice. It's what is left after the treatment, if any is left, which is more difficult.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
im not really worried about people acting weird and things not working out so good.
i think people who volunteer for the machine in the NE will be well intentioned and money, ect, is not the issue.
so, that being said, who is interested with the situation the way it is? forget about all the controversy, the what ifs ect, and just focus on the positive possible outcome
if anyone is still interested with the conditions as stated and understanding it is not going to go smoothly possibly, please let me know...
it is something that could possibly be a great endeavor, and if everyone would put their fears aside, it would work even better
the conlflicting info, especially from gigi, is very confusing and i really dont care to try to figure it out. i am sure we can run the machine and what ever we could not figure out we could get the info frmo dr w. that simple
derek
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Derek,
Clearly you, Shandy, and I, and maybe Gail are all willing to pitch in; I'm sure there are others. I think we should just divide the cost, and figure out how we are going to use it.
I would volunteer my home for us all to come together and get treated simultaneously once we got the machine. I have a large house.
Are you thinking we would do this on our own, or look for practitioners to help?
Maybe we can bribe Six to come here and help us out? I don't know.....
Paul is there now, and he is from MA. What if he could bring us back a machine when he comes home, which is soon?
Maybe he could help the rest of us?
Anyway, I would gladly host a little retreat for us all to treat together. There are tons of alternative practitioners around here and I'm sure we could find what we needed as adjuncts.
Posted by NeuroEcclectic (Member # 17783) on :
I am IN...
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
My 2 cents for what it's worth would be to start a non-profit organization or private club.
You would have to set up strict rules prior to getting involved in getting contributions & or donations & how to go about scheduling out the use of the device. Buying the device is the least of it...
If you set up a non-profit - you could possibly find natropathic doctors or MD who may want to be on the board of directors or advisors.
You may also be able to get tax free contributions from people, businesses, or other non-profits - like those trying to help people with Lyme. You could even just set it up as a project & use another non-profit group as an umbrella organization... That way you don't even need to go through the process of getting a non-profit status yourself...
I'm not sure about all of the details. Someone would have to look them up.
I used to buy Growth Hormone shots from a club in the west coast somewhere. The price was very low since someone created a "club".
You join the club & pay a membership fee & you could buy Growth Hormone vials at a reduced rate. You have to sign some waivers, etc.
As far as giving yourself the injections - you were on your own. It was quite easy to find needles over the internet & all of the instructions as to how to give yourself injections.
There are also places on the internet where you can order your own medical tests without a doctor. You pay the fee & they send you a requisition you can use at Quest or other labs.
The lab didn't like that I did this but they had to do the tests since I had the form & paid for it.
It's not that complicated to organize something like this. It just takes alittle time & thought.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
tracy-
sounds like a good plan. can you contact him and ask if it is possible form him to bring home the machine and all necessary things we would need for treatment?
i think having a practicioner would be a very good idea although if they are not trained in the use of it im not sure what good it would do.
it may make us feel more comfortable if nothing else though
i have no problem keeping it in Ma to begin with and going from there. depending on who goes in on it we could consider relocating it from time to time but honestly its location is not a big deal to me as much as getting one, knowing how to use it, and having access to it.
is there any way to contact dr w on the phone?
is there any sort of manual on how to use it?
another note, im not worried about not having access to Ivs while being treated.
ive almost died 3x from this illness and no Ivs were handy then. i highly doubt this machine will put me in that bad of a state.
tracy-
do you know of any practiconers near you that you have a personal relationship with you could trust to use this on us?
like i said i have a chiro near me whod do it but again, i dont care where it ends up as long as i can use it
let me know and OTHERS CHIME IN WHO ARE INTERESTED.
thanks!
derek
Posted by ctlyme (Member # 9022) on :
Along the lines of what Tracy is saying - If most people are not qualified to use the Bionic properly(due to detox methods etc. needed) than why are most people purchasing the machines when over ther.
i wanted to ask Six if Willow has trepidation about purchasing the Bionic when to this point she has not had any physical improvement.
Also did Dr W recommend she purcahase and use EBV nosodes to treat herself back in the Sates.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
i failed to mention i think the deciding factor for a trip or purchase for most of us will be if the ones who have gone and are "better" STAY better for 2, 3, 6 months down the road.
kind of an important point
cheers
derek
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Agreed, Derek; we won't be out that much if we chip in for a machine.
Yes, Luvdogs is an acupuncturist in RI and I am hoping she could treat us. I have Paul's email and will try to reach him about bringing us back a machine. I can also ask Six, she could mail it to us.
I also know Physical Therapists that would do it and be very interested. Again though, it sounds like anyone can administer the Bionic 880 from what Gigi is saying, and that it is all the adjunct things you need specialists for.
Agree with CTLyme, why would they all be bringing back the machine if they aren't qualified to use it? Especially on their families?
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
I've emailed both Paul and Sara, and Six as well. We'll see what they respond!
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
well, guys, this is kind of what i meant in my post. i'm feeling a strange vibe. hurried, and like "i'd better get on board asap!!" but catch myself as far too unclear as to how it would really work out as far as individualized treatment, potential complications, and simply access to the unit would go.
i just hope we can find ways for people to get a stream of usable information so everyone can figure out how this therapy works and decide if they wish to find access to it, and reasoned approaches as to how it can work for people interested.
if some of you decide to get a club set up fast, as it seems you are planning, please do share your experiences as well. i am considering the treatment for my very ill son. so, i would need more answers than are provided so far, both from those who have gone to doc w., and regarding any plan to work as a group with one machine. it's not fear, it's reasoned and responsible thinking, in my particular case.
i may be completely misunderstanding the process, tho, i'm just learning about this, after doing several hours of research on what's available. if it is such that each family can use the machine for one-two weeks, and then a break is prudent, and the timing was set so the family could get it again in x number of days.. like that? and each could report/share detox experiences, therapies, supports with one another, working as a team as much as possible.. i'd consider joining in.
i do greatly appreciate everyone's thoughts, experiences, information and ideas.
there are many options and many unanswered questions.
mo
[ 27. October 2008, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Willow feels like the machine is a good investment and is still buying one. She is not obligated at this point, but plans on buying it as she feels it is a good tool. She needs to treat viruses.
The machine is easy ... very simple .... anyone can use it. We just go back to the room and use it ourselves. It couldn't be easier.
I don't know how essential the IV's are .... since I never used it without the IV, I can't say how much they help or do not help.
If you know you have Lyme, all you have to do is treat it with the machine. Very simple. If you don't want the IV's, you can do it at home. BUT, if you have a reaction, that is when you might need the help of a practitioner.
If there are other issues, such as Willow's very high Epstein Barr numbers, you will need more treatment with different nosodes before you see noticeable improvement.
Or if you have a lot of damage from the Lyme, it takes time to heal, just as when a healthy person gets sick from the flu.
On your own it will take longer .... no one knows how much longer ... because you won't have the bacterial vials.
I plan on treating the six goofy kids and the goofy husband with nosodes and the Bionic when I get home.
I also know an MD in my area studying with ILADS who is interested, so if it helps her Lyme, maybe we can do more. Again, I think it would be cheaper to go to Germany for 3 weeks than Ohio ... and I don't know that the bacterial vials can be used by anyone but a lab in the US (that is what I have been told, even doctors can't get them .... you could crush up an infected tick and use it).
Just throwing ideas out there for you to think about. For me, this is working. We'll see how it works long term ....
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Goofy, what do you mean the bacterial vials can't be used by anybody in the US but a lab? They're just homeopathic nosodes, right? Why wouldn't they be usable, especially just holding them? I believe a homeopath may need to order them, that's all. And it's possible the Indian homeopathic pharmacy would make them. I had inquired about that.
This idea of sharing machines also seems somewhat unlikely to me (Mo).
And yes there's a "get it now please" feeling here, that I well understand, but I suggest patience. Like Derek says, let's wait and see how more people do, and whether in looking back 3 or 6 months from now they truly feel it made a big difference. It's hard to know at this point.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
put on thinking caps people
if we DO split a machine and it doesnt work, then thats what, 1k between 5 of us wasted. YES, 1k is a lot of money, BUT, weve all spent (at least i have) THOUSANDS already so whats 1k more?
as i said before and oxygen reiterated, lets WAIT 2-3 more months though, follow up on six, scott, nano, gigi, and all the others, see where they are 2-3 months from now without abx or anything BUT the bionic, and then make a decision non whether or not we want to buy one.
to be honest, I would actually throw down 1k NOW for paul or someone to bring one home for me and trac and whoever else chipped in because im going to spend 1k on OTHER therapies that are not as promising anyway...
nonetheless, to soothe the naysayers, we can just as well wait and see how everyone is doing 2-3 months from now.
it is a given that there will be SOMEONE from LN over there at any given time so when the time comes and we do make a deicision as to whether or not get one, all we have to do is paypal that person the moolah and presto, bionic for us!
so in summary, ill get one now, OR wait 2-3 months to satisfy the more leary patients and then chip in for one. either way i i want to be able to use one and i can spend 1k. this means we only need about 5-7 people total on the ENTIRE NE area which should not be hard.
how does everyone feel about this?
cheers!!
derek
Posted by UnexpectedIlls (Member # 15144) on :
I really wanted to chip in, but wouldn't be able to till tax time. I understand you all might not want to wait that long...
I unfortunately do not have 1k to throw down tomorrow, but I would if I did.... Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
If we purchase a unit within a group, we need to make sure those that can't afford it get treated as well. We just have to work the logistics.
Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
As far as the vial you can't get. They are not hard to culture ourselves. What do you need, the ticks of course, if you find a tick that is energetically tested for lyme you stick the tick in a vial and you have a nosode of live bacteria. It would be best to get one here anyways. To get ticks, take precautions and have premerthin on your clothes and just drag a white rag as they do in the movie "Under our Skin" and you can get ticks.
Lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill. Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
Oxygenbabe - the bacterial vials that six refers to are not the same as the nosodes. I brought home my nosodes but there were two that I used there which do not leave Dr. W office that are bacterial vials.
As far as I know you can't get these bacterial vials. There might be a way, I just don't know how.
You can get many, many nosodes - not a problem. I just don't know if the bacterial vials are crucial to the process. I have heard from someone you can probably treat without them but it might take a good deal longer. Once you have had the initial treatments with them, I believe they are no longer necessary.
Is this correct Gigi? About the bacterial vials?
The manufacturer of the machine told me that you can certainly try to get one shipped to the US and you might have good luck and you might not.
I sounds as though it's easier to get one through to Canada. Those of you with friends or family there could easily get one shipped to Canada and drive to pick it up. Those in NY, CT etc. are quite close to parts of Canada. Just a thought.
Those of you who are watching to see how we do 3 mos, 6 mos down the road - I can report that 1 month after my last treatment I am still feeling very well. I am still releasing various things and constantly working on detoxing. I do not feel the least bit lymie.
The metals start coming out of my mouth soon so I will see how that goes Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
Okay - looks like Bob answered the question while I was typing Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Derek, I heard back from Paul; he believes he can only bring back one machine, but is going to check with Dr W. today.
I am willing to throw down $1k today as well if we could get a few other people in on it, and could get the machine.
I'm hoping there is a way they can bring back more than one....and I am a little confused as to why it can't get through to the US?
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Derek,
My only other thought, as a last ditch option, is that I would be willing to go to Germany ASAP and bring back a machine to share if we all pitched in.
Only problem is that it would cost me a whole lot more....but we could definitely get the machine quickly, and if enough people pitched in it could be doable.
What do you/others think???
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Dr. W himself told me it would take longer without the bacterial vial. O2babe, no, the bacterial vial is not a homeopathic nosode.
We can only bring back machines for personal use, so that would by definition be one per person.
Dr. W can take appts. in January, but he is moving in March/April, so if you don't want the winter weather, you have to wait till May.
Posted by nyjohn (Member # 15361) on :
ok i am confused... why does he use nosodes taped to your chest as part of remedy, but those nosodes are not available in the us?
are the bacterias the same as nosodes?
and, if we know that we have been tested positive for, let's say myco ferment, can't we just buy myco ferm nosodes in the states and use them as one would the nosodes taped to your chest?
because i know we can get nosodes for babs, bart, ebv, mycos here.
can it hurt us to treat for them with the nosodes taped to us, without energetically testing for them first, since we already know we have them via our llmds??
sorry to ask so many questions that might be hard to answer but i think that it would sum up the treatment for everybody who is considering continuing treatments at home.
thanks!
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
So he actually has live, or dead, bacteria in the vial? What bacteria--borrelia? German (afzelli?). Can you find out for me it would be appreciated.
You can gather ticks by putting a bottle of seltzer in a tick endemic area. They will come for the c02.
I wouldn't do it. I don't want to get bit again. Also its a mix of infections. Seems a sloppy way to do it. Rather have a vial of my own blood.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
When we get treatment here we have 12 vials taped to our solar plexus (not chest). Two of them are bacteria and ten are nosodes of varying strengths.
He said he can't treat with blood because it would make us too sick, but that we can use blood later when our pathogen load is lowered. Judging by how the treatment affected me, I'd be very afraid to use blood until I was farther along in treatment.
The nosodes are available in the US .... as mentioned, also for the coinfections. It's a good idea IMO to bring coinfection nosodes here if you come to Germany to have them tested to see if you need to treat for a particular coinfection. I don't see what you would lose except time if you treated for something you did not have.
Posted by UnexpectedIlls (Member # 15144) on :
Where do you get nosodes from???
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
quote:Originally posted by UnexpectedIlls: Where do you get nosodes from???
Good question. I don't know ..... here I got them by prescription from the pharmacy and that is something I will be looking into when I return as I would like to get other nosodes (babesia, mold, etc.).
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
I can easily get plenty of ticks here to put in a vial.....
Ok, I am waiting to hear back from Joey to see if he will bring us a machine. He has his mom with him, so that would mean he can bring back an extra. Then he would need to mail it to us from CA.
It sounds like the machine is going to be about $7500. If Joey says yes, I need to seriously know who is interested in pitching in, like in the next day or two, to get the machine.
If not, does anyone want to pitch in if I go to Germany in January to bring us back one?
I have lots of ideas on how it could work....again, I think it would be cool if people came to my house and we did it together. Shandy is in driving distance. Paul, who is in Germany now, is only about an hour away from me and perhaps could help us with learning to use it, though if I go to Germany I guess I'd know.
I totally agree with Derek; it can't hurt, and if people like Six are coming home and treating others, why can't we do this ourselves????
Posted by UnexpectedIlls (Member # 15144) on :
Tracy
I want to pitch in, but it will not be feasible for me until Joey gets his income taxes Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
trac-
sounds like some good ideas.
i am ok with you going to germany to get the machine if someone over there now cannot bring onw home. a thought tho:
if you or one of us from the group who in interested in using the machine back here in the states is going to go to germany, why not make an appt, get therapy from dr w so we can see how to use it and then bring the machine back for all of us?
i am considering going anyway early next year so possibly i could go and get the therapy there and then bring it back? or is this what you intended to do?
any word from anyone over there if they can bring one back or not?
i totally agree it may be possible to do this ourselves, especially if everyone is bringine them home and using them on their friends and families then why nis it any different if we use it on ourselves?? contradicts itself
my ONLY concern at this point would be the nosodes, etc, and making sure we have all the ones we would need (ie co infections, etc)
thanks
derek
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Yes, if I went I would most definitely go and get the treatment; and gain all the knowledge I could to bring back.
I have not heard back from Joey regarding him being able to bring one back or not.
I dont' think the nosodes are going to be a problem, I have seen several people here post about where to get them. Sounds like we can make the borrelia one with our own ticks...????
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
We were just discussing today (at the guesthouse in Germany) about how to duplicate the IV's we are getting to help with the herx. I think detox after treatment will need to be addressed. It's hard .... yes, we're getting better, but the first week is tough.
I do plan on using it on my family, but since I will have nosodes and not the borrelia vials, the herx should be less .... but I still want a detox protocol.
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Don't ever underestimate detoxing. A herx can kill, not figure of speech, but reality.
This is just one site of cardiovascular death after herxing from syphillis. Do a search. I've read on and on about it. There are other links in lymenet about herx dangers, real dangers that may lead to death.
Anyone can do the Bionic, it seems, but detoxing is crucial. Some of you may be stronger at detoxing, but most aren't.
I'm convinced that the most difficult is finding a good detox protocol to avoid damage (or death!). Anyone who has done chelation knows what free heavy metals do to the body. It can be horrible. There will be loads being released + loads of neurotoxins from die off.
This is no play of kids, don't think you are strong enough to stand ANY herxes. Get naturopaths or whoever knows how to detox WELL and what to do in case of emergency, and who can test energetically for cleansers.
Detoxing is one of the most difficult things to master, because toxins are so different and need different 'binders'.
Homeopathy without the Bionic already can cause strong herxes. With the light, I believe on an even stronger reaction.
Deseret Biologicals in the US have the nosodes for sooo many coinfections and still for other parasites, infections, the list is enormous.
Contact Bejoy from lymenet, she can probably get the nosodes with her practioner or so. Once the source is there at Deseret, they can do whatever dilutions they want. It's easy. It's a matter only of willing to cooperate or not.
I guess there's a general rule, 'no sharing of nosodes' (or am I mistaken?). I wouldn't share my nosodes with anyone out of my family. The light flashed through nosodes may carry info to and from the treated people and imprint in the nosodes, at least, that's how it happens with LED devices.
So, no sharing of nosodes, I suppose (maybe I'm wrong and things are different with the Bionic?).
The homeopathic nosodes dr. W. uses are of lower dilutions, meaning, there is more concentration of the original substance (borrelia). I guess this will kick the butt of most of us, without the live borrelia vials.
Dr. W. though wants a treatment that works fast and is there to help on strong herxes. I wonder what is the exact function of the live vials. If these are what triggers the main healing reaction in his patients, then they are a must. But if they are just supportive for the treatment, then it is fine to do without them (my guess).
January is fully booked by dr. W.(Feb I can't go), so I will only go end of March-beg April.
I'll certainly energetically test these live vials while there, to see what they do to me (in case I need them), if he allows me to test on myself.
According to dr. K., borrelia doesn't live in the blood or doesn't like the blood to live. If one treats with own's blood, too many other things will be addressed, I suppose.
If people are having trouble to deal ONLY with borrelia, I wouldn't take the risk. There are certainly borrelia antibodies there, but too many other stuff that will be treated at once.
Also for the crushed tick, no good idea. Too many stuff inside a tick.
I took crushed tick dilutions, but only through normal homeopathic dilutions orally, without light. I wouldn't do it with light, for fear of herxes and because God knows what is inside the tick that we are forcing inside us through light!
Deseret Biologicals have the original source (so that they make dilutions from it), so why not trying to contact them off line (might be something forbidden in the US)? But as I said, I wouldn't worry much initially because I think lower diluted homeopathics do work well too as a start (my guess).
Of course, the best would be the protocol as it is done by dr. W, because it is less trial and error.
I'm sure there can be a wonderful combination between Deseret products and the Bionic for lyme.
Gigi could chime in, as she's treating her husband on her own protocols for detoxing heavy metals and other toxins, I suppose. (?)
does anyone know of other company than Deseret in the US that could produce these nosodes?
Selma
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
I believe it is imperative you take about 400mg of Mg about 1 our before these treatments.
This will allow time to raise your blood level of Mg (which ultimately will be lowered in a couple of hours by the kidneys which maintain the balance).
IF (and I belive so) this treatment increases ATP, ATP will drive Mg back into the cells where it binds with ATP as Mg-ATP which helps to transfer phosphate groups.
By virtue of Bb's PKCD inhbitor, some phosphate is not being transferred.
There are other cheaper machines available OTC here in the U.S.
I don't know if they are as effective. Nor do I know if nosodes are really necessary.
It is unlikely that the current gov. trials recruiting for patients to use the 880nM wavelength to heal are also using nododes since the underlying causes of this infections is not Bb.
Once again, here is the link to the gov. testing - see the list of the various diseases (included is HIV):
I don't know if I'm confused or what. Aren't Desert Biologicals products homeopathic nosodes that are taken orally?
I thought the nosodes we were discussing were the little vials or "ampulens" that we have taped to our solar plexus during treatment with the bionic880 in Germany.
Brussels - I was interested in the oral nosode you spoke about for using as a preventative but of course, can't get it shipped here.
All the other nosodes that at least I have been referring to are sealed glass vials.
[ 28. October 2008, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: NanaDubo ]
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Hey Nana Dubo, I've seen the nosodes you are talking with a naturopath.
You can put homeopathic dilutions wherever you want, in a glass vial, through xylit globules/ pellets(tasting like sugar), in an IV injection, on some cream to rub on, in a suppository, whatever you'd like.
Maybe the vials you are talking cannot be broken easily, but I would bet they can be ingested (if they are only D dilutions of borrelia).
Once you tap them to your body, it's like ingesting. You can either rub them or ingest, or even flash them with a laser without having direct contact with tongue nor skin, the effect is more or less the same as ingestion (dr. K. swears that flashing LED trhough homeopathic vials is the best way to take it, better than ingesting).
Deseret shall have the Urtinktur (in German), the 'original tincture', meaning, a non-diluted source from where all other homeopathic dilutions are done. At least, that is what I suppose.
If they don't have it, they know where to get it otherwise, they can't make their dilutions to sell.
You yourself could do the lowest dilutions, if you get a D3 nosode, break it and dilute for yourself to do a D4, D5 and so on. You got to succuss it right though.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
There is a diffeence between nosodes and remedies. And people should learn a bit about that before they venture into mass application of nosodes or other applications.
Learn before you leap. I am learning every day.
Energetic testing is the most important part and if you do that, you need to know how to unblock your regulation, if your AN system is blocked, because of disease or overload. Blocked regulation has to be taken account in any energetic testing, such as ART, tensor, etc. If your meridians are blocked, your body cannot give the "true" response.
And stay away from tough treatments until you know what you are doing. As Brussels says, this is not child's play.
Learn to tensor with a good tensor before you treat yourself or others. Otherwise it's like walking through electric cobwebs.
Take care.
Re nosodes used in the treatment by Dr. W.: The nosodes are NOT to be taken by mouth. They are basically manufactured for testing only. It is clearly stated on the container box. And if they are on the body, the Bionic880 should be applied right away and exactly as the protocol calls for.
Off to some important tasks.
Posted by Nobody (Member # 16041) on :
Here's a thought-
Why doesn't Doctor K in Washington start doing this stuff? He obviously has an affiliation with and recommended Dr. W to Gigi and others.
Gigi, you are closely connected to Doctor K. Why don't you suggest this to him? It would be a WHOLE lot easier than leaving the country for lots of us. Not that travelling to Washington is easy, either, but it beats being teased with an treatment that could work yet is unattainable to some.
Hmmmmm??? Posted by jl123 (Member # 15594) on :
"Why doesn't Doctor K in Washington start doing this stuff? He obviously has an affiliation with and recommended Dr. W to Gigi and others."
This has been suggested many many times on these boards. Gigi says that she is in contact with Dr. K apparently this will be something that will take a long time. Personally I am a little surprised that after all this time the two doctors have not even spoken. I hope they can. JL
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
I have been told that Dr K HAS gone to Germany and spent time with Dr.W, and that he is not quite sure of the treatment yet. He is waiting to see if it really works for people over time before he is willing to consider doing it.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tracy9: I have been told that Dr K HAS gone to Germany and spent time with Dr.W, and that he is not quite sure of the treatment yet. He is waiting to see if it really works for people over time before he is willing to consider doing it.
My understanding is they have NOT met. Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
What I posted is definitely hearsay.
Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
"Re nosodes used in the treatment by Dr. W.: The nosodes are NOT to be taken by mouth. They are basically manufactured for testing only. It is clearly stated on the container box. And if they are on the body, the Bionic880 should be applied right away and exactly as the protocol calls for. "
Thanks for clearing that up Gigi. I couldn't imagine anyone would be ingesting the vials we use with Dr. W for treatment and I thought maybe I was reading some of the posts incorrectly.
So there are homeopathic remedies and there are nosodes for treatment with the Bionic880. They definitely are not one in the same.
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Nana and Gigi,
the Propolis tincture I keep buying at dr. K.'s institute is only for COSMETIC use. That's what is writen on the bottles. Dr. K. of course, doesn't say it is for cosmetic use, nor none of his followers. It is for ingestion.
There is a problem with law here, some products can be ONLY sold by pharmacies, other by shops and so on. There's strict control about who may sell propolis and herbals or homeopathics here.
You know, on the facade they say 'for protetion of the consumer', on the reality, it is purely market control.
I buy propolis without any state control either through ebay Germany or behind the curtain, in German street markets here.
Honey producers will only sell propolis on backstage in Germany (I have to go behind the scene to get mine), but one can find propolis anywhere else in Switzerland or Belgium (in any food shop).
I find the law control on propolis in Germany ridiculous.
There is clearly some problem in Germany, with the pharma industry and law.
I could NEVER find any borrelia nosodes for ingestion in German pharmacies, but I can find them ALL OVER in Belgium and Switzerland OVER THE COUNTER, from all potencies you can imagine.
Pharmacies are NOT allowed to sell borrelia nosodes for ingestion in Germany, so no way they will be allowed to write 'for ingestion'.
I don't suggest you just open the glass vials and ingest the stuff, but if you read the contents of it and it says 'homeopathic borrelia dilutions D6' or similar, there's no reason why they can't be ingested. There is no difference with any other borrelia homeopathic dilutions we take in Belgium or Switzerland.
Of course, one has to be careful about the amount of ingestion, because of die off reactions.
If you are afraid, don't do it.
I suppose the vials work much better through the Bionic and LED than ingested, so why drinking it anyway?
Gigi, just tell me one reason these liquids wouldn't be ingestable? Maybe there's a foreign substance there besides water or alcohol?
My homeopath is categoric in saying there's nothing like expiring date for homeopathy stored in 'sugar' (xylit). Hahneman products were still consumed recently for a research and they are STILL active today!!!
But the law obliges manufacturers to write an expiry date for all homeopathic products. Are they trying to protect consumers or protect the industry?
Selma
Posted by Fordace (Member # 14874) on :
This topic has blown my mind quite a bit. I hope soon enough we will have these machines in the states, or I will be getting on that plane soon enough....I lurk here more than I post, but thank you all for enlightening me....pray for a cure for us all.......Rich
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
let me get this straight, as of now, one can only get the bionic 880 machine if they travel to germany and bring it back themselves (or have someone traveling personally with it in tow?)
mo
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Pretty much Mo. It cannot be shipped into the US. It can however be shipped to Canada.
Posted by jl123 (Member # 15594) on :
Brusells,
"This is no play of kids, don't think you are strong enough to stand ANY herxes. Get naturopaths or whoever knows how to detox WELL and what to do in case of emergency, and who can test energetically for cleansers."
I am concerned as well. Indeed this is my main issue about going to Germany for Bionic Treatment. I'm afraid the herx will be too strong. I'm especially worried because my heart sometimes has irregular beats when I use something strong like the metal chelator DMSA. I wonder if anyone who has this treatment has had such problems? thanks, JL
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Mo, if you missed my earlier ordeal: We purchased the Bionic880 and it was shipped to us. It got hung up in some depot in Ohio where DHL has a transfer station, I guess. It was sitting there and sitting there and no one at DHL could explain to us why. I finally got tired and had it officially returned to Germany, back to the manufacturer. We had our appointment with Dr. W. and I wanted the machine there while we were visiting overthere.
The manufacturer delivered a replacement machine to my brother's place where we were going to stay for a couple of days before seeing Dr. W.
Nobody in the world was ever able to explain to me what was holding the original machine up in Ohio.
So nobody really knows that a machine, if properly labeled for pain treatment, etc. to a private party would not be allowed into the country. Of course customs has to be paid, possibly.
When we returned from our visit back in the US, we brought the instrument with us. Self-use for pain control. We did not have to pay any duty.
Maybe if someone has one shipped for that purpose, it may go through. I do not know. It has to be sold to someone outside the European Union; not a relative or friend in Germany, etc. Otherwise the 20% VAT tax is added - that is the law. Also I think the price is somewhat lower for people who visit Dr. W.
If I needed another instrument, I would probably try it to see what happens. But we don't.
*********************************
While doing all the diverse treatments I am doing on the machine today, all I can say is -- soooo glad we have it. I.e. treating allergies or allergic reactions to a life supporting substance is a lot easier than doing it any other way.
It took me a while to figure this out - my husband reacts to NO (Nitric Oxide) with an allergy. That explains why he gets blue fingertips every once in a while and of course this is detrimental to the whole body. I don't know if that is a collateral to Lyme or to any other toxicities, but I am certainly glad I discovered it.
I finally figured that out with my tensor and the ART testing I was taught by A.R. and Dr. K. What alerted me alos was that whenever he exercised he also got a swollen lower lip and swollen cheek. It always disappeared, but kept becoming more obvious and lasting longer. I pinned it down to NO by testing his own blood and testing a Viagra pill knowing that it contains NO. He tested allergic to the pill and to his own blood.
Now I am treating it with a homeopathic and the Bionic. I learned from other Bionic therapists that they do treat allergies of all sorts with the Bionic --- I am learning more and more. It is so simple and it beats any other allergy treatment I have done before - such as NAET and others that are a pain in the neck and take forever with all sorts of precautions and often don't last. Energetic testing to do this - is a must to determine frequencies, length of treatment, intensities, etc., with vial or without.... Tensor tells all.
I am coming more and more to the conclusion - it is never only Lyme and Co. You have to look for more, especially after a lengthy process of trying to get rid of Lyme. A number of things can go wrong in the interim. There is a viral component as well as chemical toxicities that start to surface now - none are conducive to feeling 100% well after the Lyme infection is taken care of with the Bionic. At least that is what I find in my husband. I am certain age has something to do with it - but thankfully, my husband is in better shape in all other aspects than many 30 years younger.
Any treatment with the Bionic seems to be much quicker. I think my husband has not too many metals left, and the fungi and mold is also reducing.
So we will keep plugging away at it, learning more as we go along. I am thankful that there are people around the world who are willing to share their experiences with the Bionic from whom I can learn. It is quite an experience -- that's all I can say -- to pick up the phone and tell my story of woe and getting support from people whom I have never met. They are all busy in their practice, but still have some time for others.
Take care.
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
Gigi said:
"So nobody really knows that a machine, if properly labeled for pain treatment, etc. to a private party would not be allowed into the country. Of course customs has to be paid, possibly."
When I spoke with the company yesterday that manufactures the Bionic 880, the gentleman told me that it CANNOT be shipped to the US because it is not FDA approved.
It sounds like since the time GiGi got one shipped here, they are no longer doing that.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
I do not recommend getting a machine and doing this without knowing what you are doing. The effect is very strong and it will put many people in bed for a day or more. Here, they use detox IVs that are very powerful to help with the strong effect. This cannot be easily replicated in the US and so I would be very careful about being one of the first to attempt this. You may also not know how to use the device properly and I don't think this is something that one should play around with without knowing exactly what you are doing and being under the care of a doctor that supports doing it.
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Hey Scott, I tried to post an answer in your blog, but forgot my password! It happens all the time.
It's snowing here too (Konstanz area).
I just realized the INK, the Institute of dr. K. selling loads of things, including DVDs is in Stuttgart, close to Pforzheim.
They sell green lasers and lots of testing vials. I wonder if they have a biotensor there.
Good luck in today's photon treatment! I hope you're getting used to live without your teddy bear every day!
I also suppose dr. K. is in Germany now. For thosse staying until Nov 13, Thursday, he'll be giving a lecture on lyme in Freiburg (not too far from Pforzeheim either).
Mercure Hotel, Auf der Zinnen 1, 79098 Freiburg 19.30hs, 13 Nov, 8 euro for entrance In German. I'll be there.
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