Wondering if there is a link comparing these protocols and the pros and cons of them in regard to Lyme and the co-infections?
Anyone here use any or all of these protocols or any others that I haven't mentioned?
What made you choose one over the other?
Did you have success with the one you chose?
Did you choose the herbal route first before antibiotics, after antibiotics, or as a supplement to antibiotics?
Did you use them on your own--using their books as reference--or did you have a practitioner versed in these protocols?
It is still too early to give up on long term antibiotics for my daughter, but I'm trying to collect as much info as possible on alternative treatments as well, just in case or to supplement and aid in her quick recovery.
Any website suggestions for alternative discussions or success stories?
Thanks!
Posted by hoot (Member # 19281) on :
Two members of my family are using Zhang alone for the first line of treatment. They both just started so it is too early to tell. Neither has been on abx to treat lyme and co's.
I will update as information comes in.
hoot
Posted by aMomWithHope (Member # 19255) on :
Oh, I wanted to add: at this point in time, we are specifically targeting Bartonella and Lyme, with Babs possibly somewhere in there too--everything on her tests was/is borderline, and so far, she hasn't responded to short term treatment for Babs with Zith and Mepron. (She is now off Mepron.)
We are currently treating with Zith and Mino for Bart.
Posted by aMomWithHope (Member # 19255) on :
Hoot,
Did you contact Zhang or are you using a book or website for guidance? Is there a website I can go to with forums and info?
Also, what made you choose Zhang versus the other protocols? (You can email me privately if you'd like.)
Good luck on its success. And please do keep me updated!
Posted by yanivnaced (Member # 13212) on :
My wife's been doing Buhner type herbs plus some other herbs since January 2008. It didn't work so she's going back to abx.
If you ever reach remission using abx, then herbs might work in keeping the bugs at bay and holding that remission. But as a first line of treatment I have my own doubts.
Posted by bugabooboo (Member # 7383) on :
It always best to have a LLMD &/or a LL ND (naturopathic doctor) guide treatment for tick-borne and other chronic stealth infections. There are a few LL NDs who are ILADS member, so they will have the necessary knowledge base.
Whatever path you now take, if for lyme, be sure to cover this for at least 30 weeks (and be sure to assess and address an co-infections, too):
She is an ILADS member and a ND (naturopathic physician), so she has knowledge of the unique nature of the spirochete and what is required but also knows all about supportive techniques.
The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook (Tilltotson, et.al.)
While the only reference to lyme is in the chapter about Sarsaparilla, this is an excellent resource book about the forms and functions of herbs. Liver and adrenal support herbs are described in detail here, too.
If you have a LL ND near you, that would be best so that you can have individualized care. Acupuncture is also very helpful as a support - it can help the herbs work better.
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While intended as support and not primary therapy, some of the supplements here are essential for lyme patients.
Alternative Treatments for Lyme Disease and Co-Infections
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Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Now, I can offer a glimpse at personal experience. Right up front, I will say that if you have the funds, I would go with Dr. Z's guidance in a heartbeat. Stick to it for 6 months to 1-2 years (with guidance, of course).
I have no access to a LLMD in my state and funds simply are not there for travel and I also have serious reactions to many of the orals my GP has offered. I just do far better with a different approach but, still, finding one that is affordable that you can stick to for a as long as needed is vital.
I did Zhang's protocol 2 or 3 times but I never had the funds to do more than 2-3 months at a time. While it is expensive for someone who has no job, it is still the best, in my opinion and quite reasonable in price for the top quality control measures and quality of the products. The allicin from Hepapro is the best I have ever found - and I've tried them all.
I felt the best when on that. The allicin smells like garlic so that is to be considered, however, there is an alternate protocol that has no smell. It's not a strong but still can be rotated for days when something special is going on.
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I've been on basic Buhner for 6 months and the fatigue is crushing. Andrographis cleared up mouth ulcers I had for four years (allicin did, too, but nothing else worked).
Andrographis is the main part of Buhner and it causes severe fatigue. I just can't break out of that. But it is far more affordable and it's all I can do now, so I'll do my best to stick to it.
Back to the allicin protocol, I had more energy on that and less brain fog. I think less pain, too.
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Both Allicin protocol (Zhang) and the Andrographis (Buhner) decreased seizures for me.
Allicin tended to raise tinnitus to unbearable levels for me (but most others don't experience that).
Andrographis calms down tinnitus about 3 notches so I've can come off the window ledge.
While both do lessen the startle-seizure connection, neither really lessens hyperacusis for me. But really, either protocol is amazing help in different ways.
I'll mention again, though, that the fatigue from andrographis can be very hard to break through. Although, it sure helps with sleep.
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I would advise consulting your LLMD about how to approach this. Even Dr Z and Buhner suggest abx at times and, in Buhner's book, he says that abx are absolutely required for one of the tick-borne infections (I can't remember which).
Many LLMDs incorporate methods from either Zhang, Bunner, or both.
Liver protection is vital. And HEARING protection, too. NAC is the best for that. See post below from the Cpn protocol about that.
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Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Whatever treatment on chooses, liver support is vital. This explains why:
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NAC (N-Acetyl-Cysteine) --------------------
This, from a protocol for Chlamydia Pneumonia (Cpn) which is a similar chronic stealth infection. This treatment protocol is also similar to that of chronic lyme.
This is what one of the protocol authors says about the power of NAC to help protet the liver:
. . . "Surprisingly, the only anti-chlamydial agent that did not cause hepatitis in some patients was NAC. In fact, NAC is recognized as being protective.
See attached references.
My conclusion is that NAC should be the first agent in an anti-chlamydial regimen and should be a constant part of the therapy for this protective effect, not to mention it's effect against elementary bodies.
. . . Individual variations in our cytochrome P40 enzymes help to demystify why there are so many variations in how we respond to drugs and herbs. . . .
- Full chapter at link above.
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There are hundreds of herbs that can help liver function. A couple dozen are discussed here:
The important thing to remember is that the liver is a hot (metabolically active) organ, and so tends to get congested and inflamed.
. . .
Protection
Turmeric root, wheat sprouts, schisandra berries, amla fruit, beet root and milk thistle seed are among the major sources of protective anti-oxidants for the liver cells, as are fruits that contain flavonoids, especially citrus fruits.
These should be used to prevent development of inflammatory disease, or for damage protection as in the case of persons taking strong chemical drugs or undergoing chemotherapy.
Deficiency
The liver can become weakened and deficient. If this is not corrected, it can lead to liver atrophy and depletion of glycogen stores, even hepatitis. Signs include fatigue, low blood pressure, hypoglycemia, dry eyes, headache, heat symptoms and irritability . . . .
Heat and Inflammation
To remove excess liver inflammation with heat signs or toxins . . . .
. . .
Pain
If there is liver inflammation with signs of pain and tension, use herbs that calm the liver and move the blood . . . .
Ben Balough, MD, Chief of Neurotology at the Naval Medical Center San Diego.
Dr. Balough stated that antioxidants such as N-Acetyl Cysteine and Acetyl-L-Carnitine are very helpful in preventing hearing loss due to noise exposure or ototoxic medications.
Liver Protection: Laying the Foundation for Optimal Hepatic Health - By Kathy E. Acquistapace, DC, NHP, CNC
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If someone is having a hard time with certain medicines, there may be problem with metabolization. AND there are some suggestions here that will help all lyme patients better tolerate meds. Beta Carotene is just one great helper to the liver and might really help diminish herx response.
The International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) provides a forum for health science professionals to share their wealth of knowledge regarding the management of Lyme and associated diseases.
Thanks everyone for the personal experiences and links. I have a lot to research and read through.
Anyone else want to share their experience with any of these as well as any other protocols I forgot to mention, such as Klinghardt, etc.?
Posted by Tai (Member # 10022) on :
I used Dr. Zhang's protocol following a long course of abx. I believe the abx took me from about 40 symptoms down to about 15, and Zhang took me from there down to about 5. So yes, it definitely helped. Now I'm doing colloidal silver, which helps keep me down near zero. At this point I only take it when symptoms re-emerge. My few remaining symptoms include leg cramping (not your garden variety, but a sensation that all muscles and connective tissue are shortening until they feel as if they might snap), double vision, morning tingling, and I'm probably forgetting one or two others. All are minimal compared to pre-diagnosis. I plan to try the meso silver form next. I also take tonic water when I have a hot, searing pain in my right leg. It works. I've had Lyme over 30 years.
Posted by Tai (Member # 10022) on :
Me again. What is a junior member? I thought I was too old to be a junior anywhere. Did I fill something out incorrectly?
Posted by aMomWithHope (Member # 19255) on :
Hi Tai,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I appreciate the input.
Regarding Junior Member status, I'm not sure what that is, but maybe it has to due with how often you post? I'm still just a plain, run-of-the-mill member!
Posted by Amanda (Member # 14107) on :
I tried all three, and none of them worked for me, at all.
In fact, I continued to slowly decline, even though I was taking abx, along with the herbal protocols.
I tried each for almost 6 months each.
I recommend you choose the least exspensive option. Since not everyone are helped by teh protocols. Although it is true that this can also be the case for abx, at least we have tracked thousands of patients with abx, and have a better idea of what will be effective, and to what extent.