Hi in addition to mepron and bactrim, I added Zhangs art 3 x day.
Can others comment on experiences with this drug? I have been pulsing 3 days on and am completely bed bound and barely functioning on days off.
My sx are mainly headaches, depression, and brain feeling seizure like! I'm wondering if this is a safe drug...I've already tried cryptolepsis and had similiar but less harsh side effects.
If this means it's killing, I'll push through but if it's permanently damaging my brain I want to stop.
Any feedback on your experience, whether it helped and sx are much appreciated!
Mandy
Posted by peacemama (Member # 17666) on :
I'm not taking Zhang's yet. . just using up artemisia I had in my drawer and yes, I had a similar response. Couldn't walk, lots of sweats, lots of crying jags.
Artemisia, like many herbal remedies hit my system harder than the abx, with fewer side effects.
I hope you can stick it out, but I know it is very, very hard.
Posted by Jane2904 (Member # 15917) on :
Hi, My daughter took this last summer for about two weeks.
Her dizziness was worse after starting this and chest pain and heart flutters began. we stopped after two weeks.
Hope things improve for you.
Posted by CD57 (Member # 11749) on :
What is the brain feeling seizure like?
Posted by mandy614 (Member # 16524) on :
Thxs peacemama and jane for your input!
It's hard to know what to do when you feel so bad...I wanted to follow Dr B's guidelines.
CD57,the seizure like feeling hard to explain...like I have clouded vision/awareness, a feeling of almost unconsciousness as I pull myself out of a nap, crushing fatigue, brain feels like bing-boing firing off explosions :-)
Have I scared you??? :-) I know E has the opposite effect, on the days she takes it she's wired (go figure :-) and then off days shes a zombie so she was considering low dose non pulsing.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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While many do have difficultly with artemisinin, this is a very safe supplement but the instructions intended for this do not include pulsing - unless your LLMD has advised that.
Three x a day is the normal timing - to me "pulsing" usually means high doses. So, I'm assuming you mean high doses? Or do you mean you are taking some days off?
But, even normal dosing can still be very rough.
If a new addition to your protocol is too much, back off. Slow down or stop it. Then slowly try again. I don't know what else you are taking either Rx or supplement wise and that makes a difference.
You MUST have liver support if you take any artemisinin as it uses the Cytochrome P-450 liver detox pathway and that, for many lyme patients, is overwhelmed.
The pulsing of this product concerns me as that is not the intended use and can really be much too harsh if dosage is increased.
Have you had the same effects when you followed the instructions on the bottle and as part of the overall protocol for which it is intended?
If not as part of the main protocol, did your LLMD recommend this? And - did the LLMD recommend the higher pulsed dose?
Many here don't tolerate any artemisinin very well.
However, together with the other formulas that this is intended to be part of, I did much better with this brand than others I tried. It is not an easy treatment at all but, if you can get it to a level you can tolerate (with whatever support measures help) it can be a very helpful addition to treatment.
Still, if something causes such effects, something has to be changed. My guess is that the liver support may not be enough.
What are you liver support supplements?
How much magnesium are you taking?
And - most importantly - are you also taking the AI#3 ? That is intended to go along with this to help ease herx reactions.
Even then, when I was on this, I just had to push through - with liver support - but also cutting out everything that took much effort. I was too dizzy to go out at all so I just didn't. The treatment was top priority and I did 40 days, twice. I was so glad to stop.
Now, I think a longer time is suggested.
Still, you might just have to stop this and ask your doctor for other choices. If all the support is in place and it's still too much, this is just not the right one for you.
But, whatever treatment is chosen, it's not a walk in the park so I hope you have support of family and friends to help you out and cheer you on.
Good luck. I hope this gets better.
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[ 05-25-2009, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by CD57 (Member # 11749) on :
Mandy, sounds like my exp. with Art exactly!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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If the harsh reactions are due to the Cytochrome P-450 response, there are some things here that can help:
Beta Carotene is one. Always being sure to keep blood sugar stable (don't skip meals) . . . having enough carbs in the form of veggies and non-gluten whole grains to carry you through . . . .
Sarsaparilla (Smilax) may not be mentioned in this tread, but that is an excellent help as it can reduce herx and help address the endotoxins.
My son is on artemisia 7 a day since long time. He is not cured. But if he takes only 6 a day his bowel symptoms worsen a lot. It helps him to survive, but he has very low energy.
Posted by mandy614 (Member # 16524) on :
Thxs keebler,
I am pulsing meaning 3 days 3 pills a day and 4 days off. I do take milk thistle despite being on mepron and drink lots of green tea.
In addition, I take Sam E. I think I will push through it as it feels as if it is doing something...one very noticeable difference is that my constant neck pain is improved since in this herb.
I'm not currently taking magnesium as I've heard conflicting things about magnesium "feeding the bugs" and do not have muscle pain or jerks.
Thank you for your recommendations Keebler. I think I'll go take my Liver Extend right now!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Mandy,
Thanks for clarifying your definition of pulsing, since it can be interpreted various ways. That is the recommended dose on the days that you take it so I'm not too concerned.
Are you being guided by a LLMD in your use of artemisinin? I'm concerned that at the normal dose, the on and off schedule may not adequately address the infection. But, I'm not up on the latest techniques with this. Just be sure you have expert advice.
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You need magnesium.
Bb uses magnesium, yes . . . but then our cells are left without any and that, alone, is very damaging. So, we have to supplement MORE so that our cells don't suffer.
It's impossible to starve out borrelia. If they take some of the nutrients we need, we have to give our bodies more. We will suffer far more from lack of magnesium than will borrelia.
Magnesium is REQUIRED, according to one of the top lyme doctors/researchers.
You can research all the symptoms of low magnesium. It can be very serious, indeed.
All of what you describe (headaches, depression, and brain feeling seizure like) can all be from low magnesium. Seizures, especially, require magnesium, sometimes at 1,000 + mg a day.
B-vitamins are also necessary.
SAMe was too much for me, so if you feel too energized from that, back down a bit. It can be over stimulating in someone who is very depleted. And that can contribute to a seizure-like sensation in the brain. SAMe can also be stressful if adrenal function is overwhelmed, so don't try to get energy boost just form SAMe.
If you have more depression on SAMe, I'm thinking that it may be overwhelming for your adrenals. When adrenals hit the wall, depression follows, so to speak.
Be sure to also take adrenal support such as Cordyceps. That is gentle but solid.
Nutritional Supplements in Disseminated Lyme Disease
J.J. Burrascano, Jr., MD (2008)
Four pages
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Posted by tdtid (Member # 10276) on :
I was on Zhang artemisiae as well as Zhang allison, Circulation P and AI#3 while taking antibiotics for 7 months when I was first diagnosed.
It's really hard to say what knocked me over so hard when you are taking so many at once. My doctor didn't even have me pulsing it and I was on another planet.
BUT with that said, I do think it packs a powerful punch and was the start of getting my brain back. Good luck.
Cathy
Posted by mandy614 (Member # 16524) on :
Thxs Keebler and kathy :-)
Keebler I'll start back magnesium and see if that helps. I have a huge bottle of maitake mushroom but no cordeyceps. Do they have the same action? I've heard maitake boost NK cell count but does it help with adrenals and energy as well?
I take rhodiola and dsf which has bovine sources for adrenals. Also, cortef but have been on and off of it and I know this isn't good.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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maitake is nice but not sure if it is as much of an adrenal nutrient but most medicinal mushrooms are good, in general.
Rhodiola is especially good for adrenals, however, if the HPA axis is damaged, it is not enough as it will not work exactly the same as in some one whose HPA axis fine.
HPA axis - hypothalamus/pituitary/adrenal axis - they all rely on each other.
I don't know what dsf but if the bovine adrenals work for you, great. They've always been too stimulating for me but many do very well with them.
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Posted by mandy614 (Member # 16524) on :
thank you!
Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
Mandy, you mentioned headaches and depression -
That can be from the mepron, not only the art. Depression is a common side effect of mepron. Some people get it, and some do not.
Posted by mandy614 (Member # 16524) on :
Hi Vermont
Yes, It was much worse in the beginning with mepron (the depression) but after 7 months it's leveled off IF I don't add another babs med like alinia, cryptolepsis, or art.
Then it feels like back at the beginning with crazy thoughts and crying spells.
Thxs Posted by diana (Member # 7466) on :
I have been taking Zhang's art for 2 weeks. Tough stuff! I am only taking one pill (400mg) a day and have had to take a couple of days off recently.
It does some really crazy thing to my cranial bones. After the first 5 days, my cranial bones on the right side of my head locked up so bad, the very skilled chiro I saw said it felt almost like a subdural hematoma. Crazy.
Posted by mandy614 (Member # 16524) on :
Diana
that is crazy, scary. hope you are better soon!
Posted by lyme2health (Member # 19981) on :
In addition to the info on liver pathways, here is something else to consider about Artemesia: It is a very strong pro-oxidate. That's why it works killing so well. However you can build up too much of that. Dr. Schaller in his Babesia book compares it to having stray bullets running around in your brain and doing damage.
Anti oxidate support is highly reccommended. Take several hours away from artemesia. Grape seed extract is one of the best antioxidant to break the blood brain barrier.
I take it and my drug side effects have lessened dramatically without losing the killing babs effect.
Posted by keltyl (Member # 14050) on :
I'm on my 2nd round of Zhangs. I don't find it does anything to me, but then nothing I have taken has.
My LLMD says you need to take a break and not continually take it for a long period of time.
Posted by mandy614 (Member # 16524) on :
thank you!
lyme 2 health, I haven't read the schaller book, does he not advocate using art? GSE is tough I've found too, but will try this method and see if it works,after all it gets at the cyst form too!
Posted by lyme2health (Member # 19981) on :
Mandy614, I didn't mean to lead you astray. Schaller does highly advocate art, but does talk about how to take it effectively so you kill the bugs and not your brain.
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