I have felt them on her - like a string of pearls inside and the underside of the forearm - under the skin.
Random sizes - largest like a pea. I don't have this. Does anyone have any idea what this is? Is there any reason for concern?
-p
[ 07-09-2009, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Peedie ]
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
I get this on my feet exactly as you describe them. I also get lumps along the outer edge of my arms but they can different sizes and often larger than a pea.
I read something from a lyme doctor about this being caused by bart. Don't know if they are but seems like it would be something to consider.
Terry
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
They are Parasites. I have/had them. With treatment they have come to the surface and scab. When I pick at them they come out and you can see the shape.
Not suggesting you do this. I am not sure if it's because the salt/c is pushing them to the surface. Maybe some other treatment that wouldn't happen,
Gael
Posted by nenet (Member # 13174) on :
One possiblity could be nodules, which are sometimes known to be caused by Lyme.
I believe there are quite a few posts about these here, so lots of info for you. I am pretty sure Melanie Reber has been suffering from painful nodules for years, so you may want to ask her about them, but some people don't have pain with theirs.
I'll paste here some article abstracts that I have collected about this topic:
1. Periarticular fibrous nodules in Lyme borreliosis
Espa�a A, Torrelo A, Guerrero A, Su�rez J, Rocamora A, Ledo A.
Department of Dermatology, Hospital Ram�n y Cajal, Madrid, Spain.
"Periarticular fibrous nodules have been described in patients with late-phase acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans (ACA) in the setting of Lyme borreliosis. We report the clinical and histopathological study of two patients with periarticular fibrous nodules and with Lyme borreliosis and discuss the relationship between these nodules and ACA."
PMID: 1873208 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
2. Nodular fasciitis, erythema migrans, and oligoarthritis: manifestations of Lyme borreliosis caused by Borrelia afzelii.
Schnarr S, Wahl A, J�rgens-Saathoff B, Mengel M, Kreipe HH, Zeidler H.
Division of Rheumatology, Hannover Medical School, Hannover, Germany. [email protected]
"We describe a 35-year old patient with nodular fasciitis, erythema migrans, and gonarthritis four months after a bite of a Borrelia afzelii infected tick. The Borrelia afzelii infection was identified by a polymerase chain reaction and direct sequencing of the amplification product.
Borrelia-specific DNA was also detectable in nodular fasciitis tissue. We therefore conclude that Borrelia afzelii can be a causative agent of nodular fasciitis and Lyme arthritis in a highly endemic region of Northern Germany."
PMID: 12195636 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3. Juxta-articular fibroid nodules and acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans in late stage Lyme borreliosis
Interdisziplin�res Therapiezentrum PsoriSol GmbH, Akut- und Rehabilitationsklinik f�r Dermatologie und Allergologie, Hersbruck.
"A 60-years old female patient developed juxta-articular fibroid nodules and erythrocyanotic lesions of acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans after several tick bites. The woman was treated with ceftriaxon (Rocephin) 2 g daily parenterally without adverse reactions."
"Chronic Lyme disease is also associated with multiple and seemingly unrelated cutaneous manifestations such as acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans, sclerodermoid-like reactions, lichen sclerosus et atrophicus, subcuticular fibrous nodules, eosinophilic fasciitis-like lesions of theextremities, and, possibly, granuloma annulare.
With care, spirochetes can be recovered or demonstrated by silver staining in most of the abovelesions. Spirochetes have yet to be seen in the tissues of autonomic ganglia or peripheral nerves.''
5. Spirochetes in atrophic skin lesions accompanied by minimal host response in a child with Lyme disease.
Department of Dermatology, Pathology, Tufts University School of Medicine, Boston, MA.
"Acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans, which has rarely been observed in the United States, is a late skin manifestation of Lyme borreliosis. A 12-year-old girl who spent summers on Cape Cod presented with a 2-year history of hyperpigmentation and atrophy of the skin on the hands, wrists, and ankles.
The skin biopsy specimen of an affected area showed mild dermal fibrosis, a few inflammatory cells, and spirochetes morphologically compatible with Borrelia burgdorferi. An IgG antibody response to B. burgdorferi could be elicited by immunoblotting, but not by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay.
We conclude that this patient had chronic Lyme borreliosis manifested only by indolent infection of the skin.
PMID: 1894781 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
See here for this and many other examples of skin manifestations of Lyme Disease, with citations:
Also, Wegener's granulomatosis seems to be another syndrome that has been named for a collection of symptoms caused by undiagnosed or mistakenly-dismissed Lyme infection.
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
Peedie if you are concerned I would call your LLMD
and ask them. Lymph node swelling could
be anything. Fever? Sweats? Are they tender? Sore?
hard? immovable? Mushy? I would list everything and
give them a call. Some can be felt as small as a BB
and some can be very large.
Posted by nenet (Member # 13174) on :
It would be unlikely that they are lymph nodes if they are "inside and the underside of the forearm" as mentioned.
Here is an image of the lymph nodes and vessels (vein-like structures that would not become lumpy, as far as I know) in the arm:
In the diagram above, the lymph nodes in the arm are apparently located inside the elbow, and in the arm pit, not in the forearm.
Here is the site the diagram came from, along with other images of lymph ndes in the rest of the body:
It sounds like something that I have, on the outer part of the heels on both feet, on my forearms and upper arms. It is like a bunch a smaller than a marble hard lumps. They are more apparent when if pressure is put on surrounding areas. Not painful and are white where as the rest of the area is not so white. They look like if they were scooped out (ewwww), they would be a ball shaped white thing. Interested to know what they area as well.
Posted by Peedie (Member # 15355) on :
Thank you all for the relies. Basaed on nenet's (beautiful) illustration - I don't think it is nodes.
I had a Lymie moment when I said they were only in her forearm - they are in the upper arm - both sides. (like Peperspeck) They are buried deep and can be felt from the inside of the arm with the finger tips. They move somewhat and have a definate round BB or pea shape. Can not tell if they have color - such as white. There is no pain or tenderness to them. She tested neg. for Bart.(?) with Igenix.
We have an appt. with our LLMD on the 14th. I guess we will wait until then to see what he says.
It is - in an odd way - somewhat comforting to know other people have experienced this. I think we should all ask our LLMDs about this and compare notes?
Thanks again -peedie
Posted by Peedie (Member # 15355) on :
UPDATE: My daughter was refered to her Endrocrinologist concerning these "nodules". He said they follow her blood vessels and involve the Lymphatic system. He has recommended she see a Hemotologist. They are now pretty much all over her now. Can't see them - but she can palpate them with her fingers. They are in her legs and breasts, as well as her arms.
Does this sound familar to anyone?
We see our LLMD on Tuesday - hope to get a better analysis then. -p
[ 07-09-2009, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Peedie ]
Posted by nenet (Member # 13174) on :
Peedie, thank you so much for the update. I hope that she gets in to see a specialist very soon!
Good luck to you both, and please keep us updated, ok?
Bumping this back up to page 1 in case someone might have an idea (or experience with) what this could be.
Posted by Melanie Reber (Member # 3707) on :
Good morning Peedie,
I'm so sorry to know that your daughter is experiencing this very odd manifestation... but am pleased that they are not painful to her.
As Nenet mentioned, I have had these nodules that feel like bubble wrap under the skin for a few years now. I have done exhaustive research on what this could be, and have found several others wih the same condition.
Some are experiencing pain, and some are not.
Mine too have very rapidly spread in recent months. They are basically all over my trunk and in my arms and legs now as well.
The difference, is that if I press on any one of them, it is quite painful.
My LLMD and I both believe this condition to be Stage III Dercum's Disease or Adiposis Dolorosa.
Of course, there is a stage I and II, and those present differently than Stage III.
I can't be certain that this is what your daughter is experiencing, but it may be something worth looking into? Or perhaps the info in the above link may provide another avenue to travel?
Posted by Melanie Reber (Member # 3707) on :
Nenet,
You have been uncovering some really interesting things! May I copy a few to the other posts on ACA and Dercum's? I would really love to keep all this information together, if possible. M
Posted by nenet (Member # 13174) on :
Absolutely, Melanie - that's the best thing to do, so I appreciate you offering to do so.
Now we can have double the chances someone will find the info.
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
Soft and gentle all over massage will help. Especially of the belly (largest) and sides of chest.
Posted by Peedie (Member # 15355) on :
Thanks so much for all the help. Melanie, I read the entire post link to Dercum's Disease.
It is not a fit, or at least not at this point, but there were other things mentioned to consider.
It certainly couldn't hurt to put her on a strong antioxidant like the Noni Juice and grapeseed extract twice a day. She craves grapes lately.
This -could- be as a result of her body unable to detoxify. We have been on Ceftin and Flagyl and herxing pretty hard.
Probably a lot of toxins released. One more week for her on this mix. Our LLMD is also internal medicine. Hope he can shed some light on this.
I thought Lymphatic Massage might help. I am afraid if she goes to a hemotologist - he'll want to put her on steriods - like Prednisone, which was mentioned in one of the sited articles. I'll warn her.
To add to her profile. No pain when pressing on them. Not in any specific area as in a place where she might have injured herself.
Rather like a string of pearls - apparently following her vascular system. Largest is like a pea size. Appear to be multiplying day by day - which is alarming.
She is slender, 25 years old, has no visable "lumping" or distended stomach. Was dx'd Lupus years ago (doesn't have Lupus) and then dx'd with fibro. before testing positive for Lyme.
After starting treatment a year ago, Ceftin has been the first abx she has been able to tolerate well. The Flagyl added to the mix 7 weeks ago has been well tolerated.
She has only been on a consistant abx treatment for about 12 weeks. She had developed an ulcer from abx prior. (suspect caused by doxy)
I'll get back to you all after we see our LLMD on Tuesday.
Thanks -p
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
Grapes can help reverse alkaline. Whatever she craves she probably needs.
Posted by psano2 (Member # 11711) on :
Peedie, I had this same thing on the front of my shin. In my opinion it's Lyme. I massaged bee venom ointment (Venex ointment) into it (as well as the rest of me) and the little bumps eventually went away. I think it took a few months.
If your daughter isn't allergic to bee stings, I would try it. She can expect to herx pretty strongly to it, so she shouldn't use it everywhere until she determines how she'll respond to it. Bee venom ointment helped me a lot.
I would be worried if it's spreading that quickly. I was worried, and I didn't have it as extensively as what you describe.
I don't know your/your daughter's medical history, but I think she needs more aggressive treatment. If you/she don't want to increase her meds, try adding GSE, grapefruitseed extract, by Nutribiotics. I think you should do it asap, just my opinion. By the way, I'm not an MD.
psano - I am using the GSE off and on - just finished 8 weeks on Flagyl so I'll get with the GSE and maybe get my daughter to try it. I don't know if we are allergic to bee stings. Should I have an Epi pen on hand before trying it? How often did you apply the Venex Ointment? -p
Posted by psano2 (Member # 11711) on :
It's probably best if you have an Epi pen on hand if you don't know if you're allergic. I see you're in So Cal. I am too. Was your daughter bit here?
Since it made me herx rather strongly, I usually applied the Venex once a day at night before bed, so I'd sleep through the worst of the herx, but starting out, I think you should try it during the day to gauge the reaction. I'd apply it more often to the worst areas sometimes.
Who is your LLMD? SH?
Posted by psano2 (Member # 11711) on :
By the way, have you discussed this with any of her Drs or LLMDs?
