This is topic A Look into the Mind of a Duck. in forum Medical Questions at LymeNet Flash.

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Posted by Skyler (Member # 11549) on :
I was talking to a very close friend of mine (Will) Last night. His father has been a doctor for about 40 years.

Will told me something very interesting. His father said (and he believes this) that any patient who goes to see a doctor with more than 2 symptoms is a hypochondriac.

We argued for about 3 hours about this. I think the average person, one who has never really been sick might actually think this.

His father, a doctor, truly believes that any person that came into his office complaining of more than two symptoms has convinces him/herself that they are sick and in fact they are not!

Seriously, what kind of logic is that?!?! [Eek!]

It makes me wonder how many other doctors think like this. Is this why Ducks are the way they are?

This might be great insight into the minds of these silly creatures (ignorant doctors).

I explained to my friend how that mind set was the reason people suffering from Lyme Disease do not get diagnosed.

He explained to me the in depth conversation he had with his father about this, why he and his father believes this to be true. His father said 'you can not believe or go on what the patient has to say' .
[Eek!] (which is a shocking thing for a doctor to think, considering that the only thing a doctor can go on is what the patient tells them.)

His father's experience with patients lead him to believe that those who came to him with more than 2 symptoms are just the people who looked up diseases and their symptoms and have convinced themselves they have that disease.

All diseases and illnesses have more than 2 symptoms. At some point in history, enough people experienced these symptoms to develop the list, so his logic is completely flawed and its very easy to see that... but apparently not for him.

This caused me to think back on the 30+ doctors I saw over the 17 years before I diagnosed myself. Thinking back I saw that it was clear all of them probably assumed I was crazy. No doctor ever flat out came out and said it to me, but the signs were pretty obvious.

They often acted annoyed that I was wasting their time.

They would tell me they could not help me, would not even give me a direction to go in (what type of doctor I should see)

And then they would charge me 250 on my way out, after giving me no answers or help what so ever.

If a doctor truly believed I was sick, and could not help me, I would think they would at least show some sort of remorse or not charge me. But all of them would act annoyed at my presence in their office. [dizzy]

The problem with that is, the doctor assumes you are a hypochondriac or are blowing your symptoms out of proportion and if a doctor can not help you, you do not return to them for another appointment.

This just reinforces their idea that you are in fact not sick. Because 'if you were truly sick you would not give up' and all they see is that you did not return to them and are obviously not sick.

So I will be writing all of these past doctors I have seen and letting them know what is actually the problem, and what was making me sick, and I encourage anyone else who went from doctor to doctor being misdiagnosed or less to do the same.

There is a serious problem with medicine today, as all of you know. Doctors are not looking at all of a patient's symptoms.

They look at the most severe symptom and treat that. This leave sick people only having their symptoms treated and not addressing the cause of the symptoms.

Outside of that, sick people are told to see specialists, and in this nation there are all sorts of specialists that focus on one of your problems which leave no one to look at the big picture and see all of your symptoms.

While listening to NPR, I heard about a study that was done on doctors and how well they listened to patients. They found that doctors generally interrupt a patient around 5 seconds after they start talking.

So this is the mind of a duck. Its a little scary.
Does anyone have any thoughts to add?
How many of you have experienced a duck's disbelief and what was your experience like?

We need to analyze this so we can try to put a stop to this. This thought process is too dangerous to let it continue.
Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
That is scary... what an awful doctor to say that someone with two symptoms is a hypochondriac!!!!

I agree with you. I could always tell the doctors I would see growing up thought I was crazy too. I would dread going to see them because I knew they thought I was crazy and yet, I had to see them because I always had something going on with my health (this was before I was diagnosed).

It's sad because later after I moved away and asked for my records to be sent to me, I read through the doctor's notes and at one point he had written that I was increasingly anxious and having trouble coping!!!!!! I couldn't believe it... though it made sense because I always knew he must have thought I was crazy the number of times I'd be coming into his office.

A lot of doctors write their patients off as crazy... they do this especially when they can't find the cause of their symptoms.
Posted by MayberryNut (Member # 16589) on :
Being a doctor doesn't always mean you are intelligent, does it...
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Originally posted by MayberryNut:
Being a doctor doesn't always mean you are intelligent, does it...

Those two men are a$$e$$!!!

What arrogance!! What happened to the old adage, "Listen to the patient. He will tell you what is wrong."

I'm SO grateful for my LLMD and GP. Both think outside the box and I am doing well because of it.


GRRRRR!! That makes me so angry!! [cussing]
Posted by coltman (Member # 21272) on :
Originally posted by MayberryNut:
Being a doctor doesn't always mean you are intelligent, does it...

I do think on average doctors are more intelligent , regarldess of how helpfull they are.

Many of them just are not there to help patients. Sometimes its burnout and they just don't give a sh1t, sometimes practice is just a burdensome necessity they have to do. With age they become less flexible and cling to whatever views they acquired earlier.

Many professionals actually suck in their chosen field. For various reasons (and while stupidity is one of them I think its not the main one , ignorance and arrogance imho play much bigger role). Doctors are no different
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
100% right, Skyler !

The real truth, as you and a few others have revealed, is that ducks DO NOT HAVE a mind. Or heart. Or soul.

These were all left out when the first duck was cloned. Many people are scared of new ideas and information. Since clones can not process, it does not scare them.

Clones then have teachers at med clone school who greatly discourage them from doing anything different.

Those who step out of the cloning process are sought out by clones and state regulatory boards that try to and often do yank their licenses and patients.

This a lot like that novel, "1984". We are turning into a world of clones and finally the ducks think they ARE the leaders. And they are ! No one can beat them at that !

I was taught that 85% of diagnoses can be made from a good history, but today people do not shut up, listen appropriately and then ask appropriate questions. Many seem to be in clone training without even knowing it !
Posted by Rumigirl (Member # 15091) on :

You MIGHT get lucky, and find a duck who cares and could take in new info, if you sent them a letter about what is really going on with your health---that they did not find.

But most likely, none of them would care or take it in. Once, when I had horrible GI pain and problems, I went to a GI doctor, who told me that it was all emotional problems!!

When I found out that I had parasites (from living in India!), and felt 1,000 times better after a couple of days on abx, I called the doctor to tell him. Naively, I thought he would like to know. He

said, "Don't expect that to solve your problems!" Can you believe the arrogance! Unbelievable.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Originally posted by coltman:

I do think on average doctors are more intelligent , regarldess of how helpfull they are.

I disagree! SOME are smarter than the rest of us... many are NOT. They may have training we don't have, but in many cases it ends there.
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
Don't get me started on this. Every doctor I've gone to in the past couple of years has basically concluded that I'm a hypochondriac or a worry wart.

Once you tell them you have Lyme, you might as well turn around and walk out the door. They don't believe you when you tell them about your pain. And if you ask them questions they feel as if you are challenging them.

Doctors might be smart people, but many of them lack common sense. The ones I've been to have poor listening skills and rarely show a genuine interest in what my problem is.

I'm still looking for a primary care doctor, but I seriously doubt I'm going to find one who will take me seriously. Pretty sad that that's the way it is for many of us with lyme disease isn't it?

Posted by LuluBellesMama (Member # 22583) on :
I have a whole lot of d's who i will be writing. None of them figured it out. Too bad, really. I have been to so many dr's, i didnt even know anything was wrong with me
Posted by Amanda (Member # 14107) on :
You know, whenever I get the line of, "you are just depressed, anxious, hypochondriac etc".

I always ask the MD. "Excuse me, are you a Psychiatrist? Because if your not, aren't you out of your field of expertise and training? Do you know the specifics test to conduct in order to evaluate someone for depression, hypochondriac etc? And have you done those evaluations on me? If you have not followed the specific guidelines for phychiatric evaluation, and you are not a Psychiatrist, then you are giving me a diagnosis without the credentials or medical evidence. Which, is akin to a Psychiatrist telling me I have brain cancer, without conducting any medical tests. MRIs or other nescessary evaluations".

You just have to throw their logic back at them.

Incidently, some of this is the result of their medical training. Some MDS are taught specifically not to listen to the patient, and to intereupt them as soon as possible so the MD can get down to business. Their medical worldview is very cold and hard (treat the illness to be solved, not the patient to be healed).

This tends to attract a certain kind of person to the profession. When I taught college biology, I use to have students that were headed to medical school. It was very disheartening because they would say things like, "I'm going to be an anestigeologist so I don't have to ever talk to the patients", or, "I have to get all A's , so I can go to the most prestigous medical school...blah, blah...". Sorry to say it wasn't as common to have students tell me they wanted to be MDs because they wanted to help sick poeple.

But, there ARE some very good MDs out there, and I am grateful to the LLMD I have
Posted by Skyler (Member # 11549) on :
I am glad this thread has sparked some interest. This really needs to be dealt with. Our Doctors are broken. I am scared to read any of my medical files from some of the doctors cause I know they must have written "nut job" all over them, despite the fact that I really played down my symptoms.

It's just like Amanda said, the field tends to attract a certain kind of person that just does not care about people in general. They feel like they know everything.

This was something that always confused me. The Idea that humans have now figured out everything there is to know about disease and the human body. I could never understand why it was that I was crazy because they could not figure out what was wrong with me.

No doctor once thought that perhaps it might be a new disease that had never been diagnosed before, or simply that maybe they just did not know everything, and perhaps there was a ddisease somewhere in the medical books that I had.

Thinking we know everything there is to know is a VERY dangerous thought process.

I do not think at all that doctors are more intelligent, what so ever. at all. They clearly are capable of getting through school, but that does not mean much. So many of these doctors can not use common sense.
They are not thinking, they are just regurgitating basic, most common information and dismiss anyone who does not fall into place with the people they generally see. Outliers are dismissed as crazy.

These ducks need to be taught a lesson.

Please, please, please, contact your past ducks and let them know where your health is right now and what they missed by dismissing you as being crazy.

When we don't go back to these doctors, it is just reaffirming their ridiculous thought possesses that make them think we are crazy. Something needs to be done.

I have 30 something doctors to send letters to... hopefully the letter will reach some of them.

All I know is something needs to change. Something needs to be done about this problem, for it effects not just those suffering from Lyme Disease, but also from other illnesses.

The Only education Doctors get once they graduate is that which the pharmaceutical companies provide with seminars (+rewards to get the doctors there). This too is a major problem. Anything new that develops in the medical world might not be getting to these doctors, and if it is, most likely it has a pharmaceutical spin on it.

Disturbedme, I can't believe a doctor would put that down in your file. How silly of you to have trouble coping with the fact your doctor is to ignorant to figure out what is wrong with you! [Wink] That really is bad. [bonk]
Posted by Skyler (Member # 11549) on :
oh and gwb, I am still looking for a general practitioner myself. Any GP doctor I have seen still dismisses me as crazy becasue they completely dismisses the Lyme entirely. (and I am very sane. With all my friends, I am known as the most easygoing, mentally stable person they know).

It is SO hard to find a general practitioner that accepts Lyme Disease. I have just given up looking.

My old LLMD was demanding I have a general practitioner, but I simply could not find one. My new LLMD wants me to have one, but recognizes that its so hard to find one and I just don't have the money or the time to go general practitioner shopping.
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
It is possible to find sterling doctors - I have one - and he obviously went into medicine for the right reason - to really listen to people, research their issues and come up with suggested solutions to try.

These other folks did not go into medicine with the right motives and will flunk in helping anyone with their health. Or if they did initially, it was probably beaten out of them in medical school.

So what to do? Good question. Who here feels they have ever gotten through to someone who is not in the first category but the second one?

[ 11-05-2009, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
NEVER assume intelligence = common sense. Two totally different ideas. I learned many years ago.
Posted by 22dreams (Member # 17846) on :
Many doctors are intellectuals.
Intellectuals (book-learned, highly educated) people aren't necessarily Intelligent.

Intelligence involves the use of both sides of the brain, includes emotional intelligence and common sense as well. Open-mindedness.....
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
oh don't get me started please!!!

i suppose this idiot, and i use the term loosely, would have said that after i fell out of the camper, broke two ribs and was black and blue all over. huge bruises the size of a man's hand and blacker than pitch.

what would he have told me? that my husband beat me? what a jerk....

i believe they are nothing more than overpaid technicians...there i said it.

i admire those doctors who do reconstructive work and are leaders in their field. adn they show this leadership by volunteering, writing, doing community service, etc, none of the doctors i see have ever done this. ok, they say they're too busy, fine.

but some i've seen and one in particular didn't have the common sense to turn a doorknob!! and his lack of social skills was appalling. that man did more harm to lyme patients than the disease.

so yeah, they've got feathers on the brain!!!
Posted by Skyler (Member # 11549) on :
Can we turn all this doctor hatred into something positive and educate them on what they don't know?
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I hope people here will do that!

I did! I wrote six letters when I was finally dxd with lyme .. 42 yrs after the bite(s).
Posted by Amanda (Member # 14107) on :

I am in same boat as you, looking for a GP.

I am having some luck now finding a few GPs to "interview". Here is what I did.

First, find the closest Lyme support group to you. Ask members in teh group which local MDs they see. There are MDs out there that may be reluctant to prescribe long term abx, but at the same time will support your treatmetn with your LLMD. They just don't want the risk of long term abx on their hands.

Second, if no one in your local lyme group knows of anyone, or you don't have a local lyme group nearby, try calling around the MD offices and ask if they regularly treat patients with fibromyalgia, CFS. These MDs tend to be more sympathetic, and are used to patients presenting with a bunch of symptoms. They still may not like the abx, but they will at least treat you and your symptoms respectfully.

Finally, try a pain management MD. They also, are used to patients with a lot of symptoms.

Actually, I recently had the pain management MD tell me that we had tried so many things that didn't work, that clearly I was ill and he was worried about me, and if I thought abx were helping me, he would presribe them. Because I have an LLMD, I don;t need that, but it was nice to see an MD that was willing to be flexible.

Anyway, I hope I have provided you with a few ideas.
Posted by 22dreams (Member # 17846) on :
I think this quote applies to the doctor above.
It's a reality within the medical community, unfortunately.

"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and higher education positively fortifies it."

~ Stephen Vizinczey

Originally posted by Skyler:
Can we turn all this doctor hatred into something positive and educate them on what they don't know?

Posted by farraday (Member # 21494) on :
I, too, have a pain doctor who looks out for me. I cannot find a GP who is willing to take me on. One even asked my husband to wheel me out of the waiting room because it upset other patients! That was when I was in my wheelchair, falling out of it, etc.

Looking over old medical records from the 80's I found an interesting reference to an unexplained rash! My pain doc wants me to reapply for disability.

She said that the PCR that found the Lyme was unavailable then, the doctors' notes confirm my symptoms. She said they owe me 20 years of payments and she will testify for me.

I have thought of sending a letter to the hundred or so doctors I saw. But I doubt it will do much good.

I think most of them are invested in what my husband and I call "Plan A" and then if that doesn't work, "Plan A". Few have the imagination or interest in coming up with Plan B, let alone Lyme Disease!

BTW, we found my pain doc in an interesting way. My husband asked at the hospital pharmacy who wrote scrips for triplicets (serious pain meds). I was on methadone at the time and needed a local doc since I could no longer travel.

We found a wonderful lady who has been helping me for years. She reads everything I find for her on Lyme and has successfully diagnosed other patients. So maybe I am helping someone else. That cheers me immensely! [woohoo]
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
In my experience, to find a doctor who will really listen to you and take your symptoms seriously, go to one who does NOT take insurance.

These are the doctors that have an upscale clientelle. They only have enough patients if they treat them properly. So, these are the docs who will treat people respectfully.

I was finally diagnosed after 10 years of going from doctor to doctor by going to an endocrinologist who did not take insurance.

This man listened to my every symptom, took me seriously, examined me, and said at the end, "You either have lyme disease or fibromyalgia." My diagnosis up to that time was menopause. He said, "This is not menopause."

It was wonderful. He tested me for lyme disease, and the rest is history.

I and my hubby have found that the docs who do not take insurance are really a cut above the rest. They are out of the rat race, spending sufficient time with each patient to really practice medicine like a good doctor wants to practice it.

If you want a good primary care doc, find an internist who doesn't take insurance. He may be a 45 minute drive away, but you will love going to him.

I also think Amanda's suggestions are great.

The reason they are is because most docs have been brainwashed by the IDSA and their continuing education program regarding lyme disease. As my internist told me recently (he just mentioned to me that he had gotten lyme disease since the last time I saw him), "Lyme disease is self-limiting. If you were sick for 10 years, its because of the other diseases you had--the babesiosis and bartonella."

So, just remember that most docs will accept what they are taught from the authority. Those treating fibro or CFS are the ones who are open to patients with many, many varied symptoms.

The rest truly believe lyme is rare and easily cured. One doc told my friend that if she really had lyme disease (he had just given her the results of her lyme test, and it was positive) that "you would have gotten rid of it over the years with the various antibiotics you took for different illnesses."

So, that is what we are facing with lyme. You can write letters to these docs, but since they believe lyme disease is self-limiting and easily cured, they will not believe that you have lyme disease. They will not accept that they have made a mistake. The one giving you the lyme diagnosis is the one they will say is making the mistake, even with a positive lyme test.

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