I just started the KPU protocol and I had read previous posts and people kept saying that it was hard and symptoms developed from it. I was wondering how long did it take to notice you were feeling worse and what did you feel?
I'm at 3/4 the full dose of everything and I don't feel any different. I've been on it for three days now, but I thought maybe it slowly gets worse over time or people run into a wall of symptoms at some point. Any thoughts?
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
First, I started detoxing heavily. I felt toxic ... did a lot of coffee enemas and took binders.
After that ended, I felt great, then I'd feel like I caught a bug. That kept cycling - feel great, then sick. Once I got through that, I felt great all the time and have ever since.
A more detailed account is in my blog. Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
Hi pyorka- I'm on my second day of the KPU protocol. I'm only on 1/4 of the dose my doctor wants me on. I'm not sure if I feel anything yet. If anything, I might've even felt a little better today in terms of my autonomic/neurological symptoms, but possibly had an increase in fatigue.
Anyone want to share what types of symptoms worsened? Was it pain and fatigue mostly, or did heart symptoms, autonomic symptoms, etc worsen too? I'm hoping that mine don't worsen with detox (or my lack of).
Six, I love reading about your experiences Definitely gives me hope that you not only made it through this, but you made it through with flying colors...and you're now doing pilates and eating and cooking oodles of yummy food
Six, did you ever try a colonic while you were on the protocol? My biggest hurdle in detox is my GI tract and its lack of motion...I'm wondering how much motion is necessary to keep up...lol...wish there was a handbook on these things...
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
I only added zinc in the beginning, and only sometimes a month. The detox that follows is not immediate, or if it is, it can last many days, in my experience.
With Depyrrol, one capsule could cause me symptoms for many many days. The worst are pain, but there are all other herx-like symptoms like liver gets blocked, you feel toxic, tired, etc.
Now I'm taking almost one Depyrrol a day, but it took me many months to reach this. My daughter is on about 2 Depyrrol kids a week though. We're trying to build up slowly since about March or April...
The effect of Depyrrol is not immediate, but sort of cummulative, in my feeling. I am ONLY taking the KPU supplements, NOTHING else for the last months, so I know that my reactions come from the protocol.
My daughter too. She's now fighting some painful muscles in her neck, due to lack of magnesium (lost to zinc).
Good luck! Keep us posted, I'm also interested to see how people react to it.
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Terry
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Terry, I also take taurine, biotin, and oil of evening primrose with the Depyrrol.
Little, I did lots of coffee enemas during the initial part of the treatment, but never had a colonic. You do want to keep things moving. Maybe adding some magnesium would help with that? Fiber?
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Make sure you are clear that the desired dose of ELEMENTAL zinc is about 50mg at the top end. The protocol refers to 200-250mg of Zinc Picolinate, Gluconate, etc. That is the amount of zinc salt, not the amount of ELEMENTAL zinc. If you get Zinc Picolinate 30mg or 50mg, etc., that is generally still the ELEMENTAL amount, not the amount of zinc salt. So, most products that I have seen, we'd still not want to take more than about 50mg of zinc since that is likely the elemental amount listed on the bottle. Make sure you understand salt vs. elemental as you could otherwise take too much zinc which could results in other problems.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
The few people I've talked with started feeling worse as early as a week into the protocol and some several weeks. The waves of feeling bad continued for many months for me and it was always related to a need for more detox support.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I felt worse with first dose of low protocol that I slowly ramped up on.The feeling bad was pretty extreme for months for me.I did start having 2-3 days of most symptoms lifting at 8 mo and then would get slammed again. I saw my doc last night and he reduced my dose after reading Scotts new info on his site. Be sure u understand this as Scott said.Too much zink can be toxic.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
Forgot to say I have done many binders all along.Also coffee enemas,baking soda and epson salt baths.
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
Scott you're right about the salt vs elemental zinc measurement, but I was under the impression that the dosage for the protocol was 250mg of elemental zinc, just that Dr. K's protocol suggests taking the zinc as zinc picolinate, gluconate, or sulfate since those absorb the best. I checked the Tamaro protocol and some of those German sites and they all just say 250mg zinc. I think mineral dosages are always given based on elemental amount. Because really if we looked at Dr. K's protocol he couldn't say 250mg of any of those salts because those salts are all different weights and provide different amounts of elemental zinc. Know what I'm saying?? So 250mg of elemental zinc sounds right.
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
To see if we are taking enough elemental zinc maybe we should monitor our white blood cell zinc levels via the Lymphocyte zinc test.
Reportedly, the Lymphocyte zinc test is a better indicator of the body's zinc status when compared to other blood tests.
****They will send you a testing kit if you call and ask for one.
.
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
I know I usually have a BM when I drink coffee in the morning with a cigarette...LOL!
Butt I don't quite get how one appreciates coffee up the poop tube?
Last time I looked it does'nt have taste buds there...although...mine are'nt working too well lately even where they're supposed to be
your buddy Scotty the one and only zman
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
i felt sick immediately after the first dose of the Core pill from biopure, but after that didn't notice anything until five weeks in (and i'm only on 1/2 dr. k's recommended dose). last week i experienced a huge increase in fatigue, brain fog, headaches, dizziness, head pressure - lots of awful neuro symptoms flooding in all at once. i lowered my dose even further and upped the binders but didn't get much relief. i'm taking a break for a couple days (and i see my practitioner next week) because i need to be able to function at least marginally.
pryorka - nope, 250 mg of elemental zinc is wayyy too much. dr k clarifies this on the back of the Core bottle. one should only be taking 25-50 mg of elemental zinc at most during this protocol.
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
here's what it says on the back of the Core bottle:
Supplement Facts Serving Size: 4 Vegetarian Capsules daily Amount Per Serving DV Vitamin B-6 .................................................................75 mg (as Pyridoxine HCl and Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate) Biotin...................................................................10,000 mcg Zinc..............................................................................27 mg ( from 80 mg Zinc Picolinate and 80 mg Zinc Gluconate) Manganese (as Manganese Citrate)...............................20 mg Chromium (as Chromium Chelate).............................500 mcg Molybdenum ( as Molybdenum Krebs�)....................500 mcg
Other Ingredients: Silica, Cellulose
�Krebs= Citrate, Fumarate, Malate, Glutarate and Succinate Complex.
Please note that the Zinc is elemental: Elemental refers to the actual amount of the mineral in the product. Minerals ( eg. Zinc ) must be bound to something else (eg. Picolinate) in order to be utilized by the body. This is why you will see Zinc chelated to something else, ( eg. Picolinate) on a label. Therefore, Zinc Picolinate in its entirety refers to the source which provides the actual or elemental amount of Zinc. For example, Zinc (from 80 mg Zinc Picolinate and 80 mg Zinc Gluconate) will provide 27 mg of Zinc. Each source, Zinc Picolinate and Zinc Gluconate, provides a percentage of zinc, which is then represented on the label as 27 mg.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
The target dose is about 50mg of elemental zinc, NOT 200-250.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
Thanks Heiwalove for posting that.I will be starting Bio Pure Core next week. It should be a lot easier than all these separate supps I feel like a pill bottle. Hugs Joyce
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
Wait this is really confusing now. How come Dr. T says 250mg zinc. Dr. K also says 250mg zinc from either zinc picolinate, sulfate, or gluconate. Has anyone asked these doctors giving protocols why they say one thing but now we're all saying 50mg of zinc?
I know Scott said he thought Dr. K meant 250mg of either of those types of zinc salts. But 250mg of zinc picolinate yields a different amount of elemental zinc than 250mg of zinc gluconate. The difference is even large with zinc sulfate. So that wouldn't make sense for them to ever say that.... that's why i'm lost here.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Any concerns about molybdenum, manganese, chromium toxocity? I take chromium 200 mg and thats 167% RDA.
Would a RBC test suffice for testing levels?
Manganese can be neurotoxic.
I dont think this can be a one size fits all protocol.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
Id like to hear an answer to pryorka's question, makes sense.
Especially if staying close to zinc target dose is so important, I think it needs clarifying.
Even the explanation on the back of the core bottle does not really make sense, to me at least.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
About 1/6 of a zinc salt is ELEMENTAL zinc. It does vary by the type of salt (picolinate, gluconate, etc.). So if you look at 160mg of zinc salt and that yields 27mg of ELEMENTAL zinc, it seems to add up.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
All meds should be energetically tested before use. KPU is not a do-it-yourself program, because anyone doing the program not experienced with heavy metal toxicity will need the assistance of a doctor or practitioner who is familiar dealing with the possible fallout. And you do want the fallout!!!! That's the purpose of KPU -- to finally get the stuff out of the system that has been killing us slowly probably for years. There is nothing worse one can do than taking a mobilizing agent, such as CORE, and then when the fallout happens not knowing how to deal with it.
Biopure carries items to be available for trained practitioners, trained by Dr. K. via the Institute. Heavy metal detoxification is again - not a one-fits-all or, much less, something a layperson should be doing without guidance. It looks simple, but wait when you start to be dealing with circulating toxic metals not knowing how to handle them or get them out of the system. When metals are on the loose, such as happens all the time with any, any, any killing method, it pays to have help to deal with it in order not to make things even worse. It is not easy to get heavy metals out of the brain/brainstem. Shifting metals, when timing is not right, from the lower body into the brain happens often! and is bad news.
It's even worse if you do the KPU while still allergic to the metals. Metal detox is much, much easier after allergies have been eliminated. You still need to know how to handle the detox, but without errors in the DNA/allergies, you are no longer fighting your own immune system, certain negative reactions/symptoms, and it is so much easier.
The least one should learn is how to test energetically. It is easy to learn. I cannot imagine dealing with this disease without this tool (tensor, pendulum, o-ring testing, arm-length testing) or having someone available when needed who does good muscle testing. I know many of you call it snake oil and woodoo - so be it. We have choices.
My husband is doing KPU. I learned to use a tensor and it works like a charm. I can help him when the kidney gets blocked, when some infection popps up (metals and bugs live together). And decide what works best at the moment when he is not his usual self. The neck may hurt temporarily, test mag for muscle cramps, or cilantro rubbed onto the area to move the stuck metal; or kidney is blocked - rub cilantro. Or up the microsilica.
You probably need some help to do it right. It is not a good idea to throw darts - our body is too precious.
Take care.
P.S. Some people don't need more than 1-2 CORE. Some need more than 4. That is why testing or experience is necessary. And the amount to take may change for different people.
Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
I am doing KPU with no biotensor, etc., and taking the Allergie-Immun drops at the same time.
I came to the KPU supplements via the article on nutritional handling of seizures, that was posted here at Lymenet. So, I was already taking zinc, B-6, B-Complex, magnesium, taurine, selenium, alpha-lipoic acid, borrage oil, etc.
I didn't experience any serious effects from the KPU supplements--quite the reverse.
When KPU was brought up here, I added manganese and copper--the only things I wasn't taking!
I have had days of symptom increase, possibly from these and possibly from the Allergie-Immun drops.
I have been taking chlorella most days, and zeolite some nights. This all would probably be going more smoothly if I were taking more binders.
Before being diagnosed with Lyme, I did a long round of EDTA chelation, had my amalgam fillings replaced, and did some intense sauna-based detox.
Best,
Cass A
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
thanks GiGi. i think it's quite possible that i'll have to back down to 1/2 Core per day and then work up from there. it's amazing how the heavy metal fallout hit me so suddenly, like a deluge, after coasting along pretty fallout-free for over a month. even loads of chlorella, which has always helped in the past with lyme & coinfection herxes, didn't do much for the KPU die-off. this is a really hard protocol -- in my limited experience with it so far, even more difficult than treating the bugs (and that's saying A LOT, i know).
i learned how to pendulum test recently but it zaps a lot of my inner strength, so i can't do it very frequently. wish i could test every little thing, but at this stage in the game it's just too exhausting.
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
It appears that the elemental zinc dosage required to control KPU can vary from person to person.
I say this because apparently, Dr. Pfeiffer had used up to 160 mg of elemental zinc to treat KPU in some people. You can read more about that on the link down bellow. ***Note: Sometimes KPU is referred to as "The Mauve Factor".
"Initially, Pfeiffer tended to use high doses of vitamin B6 (400-3000 mg daily) and relatively modest (``dietary'') doses of zinc. Later, some patients were noted to respond optimally to B6 and as much as 160 mg daily of elemental zinc."
On Page 5 under FIGURE 4
It says:
"Leukodynia Implies Zinc Deficit. In this high-Mauve subject, white flecks in nails resolved after institution of 100 mg of elemental zinc daily, reoccurred after dosage was lowered to 40 mg, and again abated on higher dosage."
.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
Thanks for the explanation Scott, I understand the data on the bottle now.
Derek
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
I did the H6 method for awhile and then got sidetracked, but in theory, it should be helpful.
I've done foot detox baths. They can be helpful, but I see them on the lower side of benefit relative to other things like FIR sauna, binders, etc.
I think KPU without binders will be very difficult and may result in a failed treatment - or at least a very difficult one for most. Looking larger that KPU, binders seem to be important for most of us recovering from chronic Lyme.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I don't know of anyone doing KPU that has not had a hard time with it,even with practioners guidance,energy testing,all binders etc etc.Actually 2 peeps. I am wondering if they even have KPU as they were not tested. I also believe one size does not fit all.I also believe that the info put out about elemental and non elemental should have been known before we were all put on it. Lots of people have suffered do to this.Please every one be careful.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I have done foot baths and they shift things a bit. Will be doing the H6 method eventually.I also got side tracked like Scott. Far saunas also help but if ur taking the wrong dose of zink I am not sure that any of this helps.Its called Zink toxic.People might want to check symptoms of being zink toxic.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Its also not a do it with your practioner protocol, either, depending on the practioner and their ability to rely on their own testing and judgement and to accept your own intuition and knowledge as well in that process.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
The info on elemental zinc should be made very clear.
I am not sure if this is not reflective of a difference in European dosing or not. Looking at the Depryyol supplement, I see BOTH are listed. I dont see this on my supps from the US, which seem to list the source, but the content is measured as elemental.
I also think not every practioner overseeing this protocol is as heavy metal toxic aware as some of us are who spend more time reseaching. Unfortnuately.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
You will see it on some. Douglas Labs 50mg Zinc Picolinate has some details like "from x mg of amino acid complex" but they don't state that the 50mg is elemental. I agree it is very confusing. If you look at the government sites, it states that they are all elemental, but it is an easy mistake to make.
I agree with R62 and I personally would not want to do KPU without having a doctor well-versed in detox and heavy metals.
Posted by aliyalex (Member # 6976) on :
So since binders are so extremely important, please clearly list them here. Chlorella, cilantro, zeolite,...
And detox techniques: ionic foot bath, far infrared saunas, ...
Thanks for the clarity and sorry if it is repetitive. The symptoms are, too. Aliyah
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
As I tried to state above, the CORE was designed after years of experience in this field. Dr. K. talked to me about KPU and Drs. Hoffer and Pfeiffer in the early 2000. We even did a test then.
Since it is Dr. K's brainchild, for better or worse, CORE is made available through Biopure. Biopure carries products and testing material for the medical professionals who attend Dr. K's Institute of Neurobiology teachings. They, if the take the time, are fully informed about the concept.
KPU is not a do-it-yourself therapy, and it is clearly stated that one should seek the advice of a medical professional. KPU is certainly not a ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL project.
Often during KPU, as is the case with any heavy metal detox, infections may flare and both have to be addressed at the same time: help with the fallout of metals and help with possible infection-fungi-viral-parasite flare.
Neither does the content of CORE fit everyone. That's when energetic testing - frequently - is necessary.
The same goes for any binders. They are a very individual thing and should be tested before using them. And they should be tested with a dependable form of energetic testing frequently. The body may like something today, but starts to reject it tomorrow.
I didn't realize how often the body rejects, blocks, asks for different remedies/support/ etc. until I finally learned to test myself. I would highly recommend learning some form of it.
Heiwalove, I never worked well with the pendulum because it takes too long to swing its way around == that made it very tiresome, especially when more than one substance is involved. Unblocking blocked regulation is very easy with the tensor, close to ART. We will talk about it soon.
I am so glad there is an Allergie Immun and a KPU/HPU. www.hputest.nl and best of all the teachings of energetic testing.
Take care.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
I agree with GiGi 100%. In fact, I worry very much about people trying this without proper medical support. I had that support and it was still the most difficult treatment I have done. Doing it without a doctor to guide is an unnecessary risk and may make people worse.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I have medical support from a source that is quite tied into Dr. K, and I was told to work my son up to 125mg and me that 50mg was OK but dont go higher..since my test was not positive.
My test, btw, which was negative, sat at UPS for 5 days supposedly in a refrigerator.. the UPS rep supposedly took it out of the box and put in fridge. I was not allowed to question this for long and told my sample was just fine. Both my kids who are not manifesting lyme symptoms tested positive. I do not like this lab at all. Terrible experience.
I think I may be in heavy metal crisis. I was leary of these high doses and kept my kids at 15mg creeping up to 30 for a short time before the info came out. I am quite livid about that and grateful the info came out and that they have not gone into any HM crisis.
I think anyone who has KPU will possibly hit a crisis at doses your average person would not ging by what I am reading and practioners need to be aware of that.
Since I think I might very well be in HM crisis and dont know what the heck to take that will work in this case, will someone give me some ideas..
I know microsilica has to be taken apart from minerals.. does biosil? I dont think horsetail has to be. I need to look into the nutramedix zeolites as well. My legs feel like they did when I was eliminating 9 metals as per yasko and the methylation protocol. But this is beyond that. I have been having shaking attacks that come and go for weeks now, tachtycardia.
I thought is was a lyme flare or babesia, but since I am on full zinc I am wondering if this is actualy from the KPU protocol which I did not know I was on.
[ 12-18-2009, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: R62 ]
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
BioSil is not a heavy metal binder. It is for biofilms and that will likely only make things worse if you are already in a crisis. I don't think BioSil has to be taken away from minerals.
Same options - Detoxamin, Zeolites, Chlorella, Fibers, Charcoals, drainage remedies, PectaSol-C, etc.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Thanks, Scott.. I thought biosil was like horsetail for alumninum.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I am taking chlorella and modifilan and some oral EDTA. Have detoxamin and was tested for that. Should use, just afraid of it for some reason.
Have quite a few drainage remedies here. Need to get more confident with testing, which is hard to do when in crisis anyway.
I have been drinking tons on water when attacks come and taking charcoal because I wasnt sure if it was not porphyria. My sister tested pos for this at some point in her illness. Its not genetic. She can tolerate sulfa drugs now and is well.
I also wonder if porphyria can be at play here for some of us.
I was treated for allergy to metals before having amalgams out with AET.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Dr. K uses BioSil as part of a biofilm protocol, not for metal detox. I am unaware of it being used for metal removal.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Aluminum: Silicon protects against aluminum toxicity. Aluminum is widely suspected of playing a role in certain age-related reductions in mental functioning. Orthosilicic acid has been shown to increase the urinary excretion of aluminum.
I understand some are using it to replace horsetail in the yasko protocol. Not sure aluminum is a metal of interest in KPU. I think it is tied to bacteria and that would mean biofilm I suppose?
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Good to know it has other benefits, but in the DK world it is more of a biofilm breaker. Breaking biofilms release organisms, metals, etc. So if someone is already toxic, adding Biosil likely just adds to the problem and makes you feel worse.
Drainage remedies, homeopathics, etc. are certainly good support.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I am taking Bio sil. It seems to really stir things up.Releases critters and metals that r in the biofilm if I am understanding it right. Is anyone angry about the new info on zink?
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
I don't think there is any new info on zinc; just more understanding now. Dr K is still saying 200-250 mg of Zinc picolinate, gluconate, etc. which is a zinc salt. Sadly, the supplement companies seem to be unclear in some cases - or maybe we as consumers did not understand that they actually mean elemental zinc. It was a revelation to me as well and one I am glad I understand better now.
That said, even on the higher dose of zinc, I was still energetically testing well for it. I think the important thing is that we have clarified this now and are not on too much for several years, etc.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Read page 47 and 48 to which clearly tells that the zinc should be in the form of picolinate or gluconate, etc.
Pg 48 gives an indication that the body has to be supplied with the supporting procucts to handle the fallout.
This was in 2008. Now we have the CORE. Dr. K. has since made some changes, as the experience warrants. He never follows the crowd and he is always a few steps ahead in his thinking. That comes with the Klinghardt territory. But the individual testing is always the final decisionmaker.
If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. Possibly learn or find someone to test.
Take care.
This KPU protocol appears here and there on the internet with different words added or changes made.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
It is new info to my ND and others. Its a new understanding. Energetic testing can be effected by perspective. My ND does not energetically test. She goes by the protocol as she understands and age, weight.
Yes, I am angry that I almost put my kids on this and grateful that the info was share with me by a friend.
I am angry that I have been on the protocol and did not know it.
There should have been more clarification. That is taking nothing away from Dr. K. It is just a fact.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
The protocol is not clear.
I dont think all practioners are fully getting all this info either.
I was told to give my son 125mg of zinc.
I was told that it is OK to take up to 50 mg of zinc. That put me on KPU without knowing it.
So, yes, anger is appropriate as is not seeking to not crucify folks. And I am not seeing that. Just normal healthy anger.
[ 12-18-2009, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: R62 ]
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
You are correct, Scott. A bottle of zinc may say zinc picolinate and then be measuring elemental zinc not the salt.
I have a bottle of sublingual B6 here that differentiates between the elemental (?) and the substance it is made from. I have seen this with some magnesium products as well.
That said, this should have been clear from the get go, whether from the protocol info itself or from the practioners who were advising us.
We cannot rely on supplement companies to be consistant with this info and assume that they are.
But, I called Thorne to find out and they are measuring elemental... and I suspect most companies are using elemental in their measurements because (I think) the RDA is based on that ( even though they also show which form is being used.)If RDA % is shown, I am thinking the measurement is based on elemental.
This needs to be clarifued from the top down to all practioners who were trained.
Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
Thanks, Bob. Seems I as well as others are getting our lesson in this including some practioners, I hope.
If I share this with my practioners, they will likely refer to the protocol, which is not clear. The term (clarification) "elemental" is not mentioned in the protocol linked above... not that I can find.
There should be more clarity in the protocol because that is what practioners are following.
A blog post from Scott is not enough. It possibly wont convince my practioners who do not know who Scott is or his access to Dr. K. (I asked them months ago when I wanted to share other info from Scott.)
More people have been confused than are speaking up, and that includes practioners.
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
I just wouldn't think Dr. K and Dr. T would both list the dosage as a salt dosage in their protocol when elemental dosage is the standard way of doing things(and they list elemental dosages for everything else). Like I also said before I can't see Dr. K making the mistake of saying 250mg of any of those salts when that would vary the amount of elemental zinc drastically depending on which salt you choose to use. That just doesn't make any sense. Here's what I'm talking about. 250mg zinc sulfate yields 170mg zinc 250mg zinc gluconate yields 42mg zinc 250mg zinc picolinate yields 66mg zinc So it makes no sense to interpret that 250mg of zinc on the protocol as being a zinc salt, because that would drastically change you're actual zinc dosage depending on which type you buy.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
This is the wording/description of the CORE mineral supplement clearly describing its content of all mineral ingredients from the Biopureus website:
The Core Mineral Supplement. Essential Vitamins and Minerals. 240 Veggie Capsules. Adult serving size: 4 capsules daily. Bottle contains a two month supply. Supplement Facts: Serving Size 4 Vegetarian Capsules Vitamin B-6 75 mg (3,750% DV) (as Pyridoxine HCl and Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate. Biotin 10,000 mcg (3,333% DV. Elemental Zinc 27 mg (180% DV) ( from 80 mg Zinc Picolinate and 80 mg Zinc Gluconate). Manganese (as Manganese Citrate) 20 mg (1,000% DV). Chromium (as Chromium Chelate) 500 mcg (417% DV). Molybdenum ( as Molybdenum Krebst) 500 mcg (667% DV). Daily Value not established. Other Ingredients: Silica, Cellulose. �Krebs= Citrate, Fumarate, Malate, Glutarate and Succinate Complex. Dosages, indications and any other information contained herein is suggested use only and not to be considered treatment recommendations. Please consult with a healthcare provider for treatment of any illness or condition, especially if you are pregnant, breast-feeding or considering treating a child. We suggest that you consult a licensed physician if you have any health problems and you require a medical diagnosis or medical advice or treatment. Our products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. For all matters that relate to your health, please contact your physician.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Yes the Core does make sense if you need the high dosages of moly, manganese and chromium, and no it was not out until recently, though the Europeon supplement also lists elemental and has been out since the beginning.
The protocol says 250 mg and thats what some practioners have been prescribing in elemental form.
And yes, listing a one size fits all 250 mg of the salts makes no sense.
[ 12-18-2009, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: R62 ]
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
What symptoms are you all having? Repeating for those not reading the entire thread: I didnt know I was on the protocol in full with the zinc until Scott's blog post came out explaining the difference between elemental and salt zinc.
I thought 25-60 mg, which I have been on was low and there was no problem. My practioners, I gather, have had the same conclusion.
I was on 25 mg for at least two months and recently upped from 47.5 to 60. During the last month or so, I have had the strangest and scariest symptoms. I thought it was a lyme or babs flare or possibly porphyria.. and it still could be.. but.. given I have been on the KPU protocol long enough for a detox reaction to occur and given my symptoms are very similar to those listed above and to someone else I know on the protocol, I am wondering...
Here are my symptoms that tend to come in attacks:
vibrations, tachtycardia, anxiety, shaking as if I am in shock, blurry vision, feeling I will just lose consciousness.. not the same as feeling will pass out.. different and cant explain, instability physically, weakness, ringing in ears.. some numbness around mouth.
Thats all I can remember now. If I remember more I will edit.
I have been taking 6000mg of chlorella a day. Sometimes rotating last dose (3X 2000mg) with 3 modifilan pills, EDTA chelation complex at times (1/2 to one pill.. do this because I read on yasko site to take enough to bind whats out there but not so much to pull out more), charcoal sometimes and probaby not enough.. 2-3 pills.
I am upping the detox to the 6000mg chlorella and adding (not substituting) either modifilan or the EDTA Chelation Complex at 1 pill. I am also taking 1 scoop of microsilica.
I have a call out to my practioners, but have not heard from them yet regarding HM dumping crisis.
(I tested neg as per VD test. My kids tests were positive. I was not to be on the protocol. I was told 50 mg of zinc is highest I should go as a non KPU-er. I was to be ART tested next visit.)
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Hi all,
Please note my comments on EDTA in an earlier post here.
KPU is mainly directed at heavy metals release. i.e. mobilizing them. From that point on, you need to bring certain helpers on board to help the metals out.
When metals are finally mobilizing, pathogens may flare, and you will have to pay attention to that. That is the reason for doing KPU only under guidance. Unless, of course, you have the answers yourself, can test yourself, safely. I don't and I have to consult knowledgable people, so that I don't add to the damage that had already been done over the years. There is always something new that works better. A lot of people are working on the sidelines to make it easier.
Again, KPU should only be done under the supervision of a doctor or practitioner v e r y familiar with heavy metal toxicity.
Screaming, shouting and complaining ain't going to get us anywhere. The people that can help will flee!
Take care.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I dont see anyone screaming, shouting or even complaining. I see healthy processing.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I can't test myself well and am seeing "knowledgable people" and seemingly its slow going getting anywhere with a response.
I was not supposed to be in KPU. It happened by mistake because the knowledgable people didn't realize that the elemental dose is 25-50. I am trying to inform them.
Meanwhile, I have told them that I may be in HM crisis and I have not heard back.
So, I ask my friends for help because the symptoms are pretty scary and I want all the advice I can get until my people get back to me.
I can see other pathogens coming out. That makes sense. I hope we are addressing those correctly as well.
I dont think all practioners are aware of the pandoras box this protocol can be and they need to be informed.
I dont see your info on EDTA. I do see where several people are using correctly or not.. ?? I do also know that some practioners overseeing this protocol are also advising the use of detoxamin. Perhaps the oral form is all wrong?
And really, if you don't want to answer my posts, that's fine.
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
I still don't know that the elemental dose is 50mg. I have two doctors, one llmd and one chelation doctor that works with Dr. K and Dr. T as well, and they both say it's 250mg BUT that's just for the first 4 months. They said the core and depyrol are formulated for maintenance doses after that first 4 months so you can just take one pill. And the core is formulated at the lower end of a KPU patients' zinc intake, because you can always add more to it if you need to but you can't split the pill in half to get less zinc or then you don't get enough of the B vitamins.
But I've been on the protocol for 5 days now and i'm noticing a much worse headache, and I always use a sauna, but now after I use it i'm really weak and shaky. My gums around where I had a mercury filling are hurting like heck too.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I also see no one screaming,yelling or complaining.I did post I felt angry and thats the truth.Truth needs to be spoken.I have a great Md who energy tests,gets the detox crises thing and much more and it has still has been frustrating for me and many others including Docs.The protocol is extremely hard to go through even knowing all the things to do that can make it easier.People need to have compassion for what others r going through and not judge and point fingers.There is still much confusion going on about all this,and I am hoping Dr K will address it soon. Again I am grateful to Scott for shining the light on the zink confusion.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I also want to say I have been on the protocol for 8 mo.I am very disappointed that I was doing the wrong toxic dosages of zink. My Md dropped my dose to where it should be the other night and squeezed me in to do so after reading Scotts message and hellish symptoms have stopped.I had been doing all the support listed here and more.Please everyone be very careful. Wait to do the protocol until u can find an Md to help that totally understands the process and does not mind u asking questions and is open to u sharing what u know. Blessings to all the confusion lifting so people can feel safe doing the protocol.
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
Hey healingin santa cruz what symptoms were you having? Because we will get heavy metal redistribution symptoms especially if we aren't chelating along with it. But zinc overdose symptoms are things like nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, stomach cramps.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
Hi Pryorka, I have kept notes on all symptoms to share with my md.I know well the symptoms of metal redistribtion as I have dealt with it from the very beginning for 8 mo.I had extreme exhaustion,felt like something was being ripped out of my bones,neck down, hands,fingers feet,buzzing vibration in my body,muscle pain,brain fog got heavier,really bad headaches.Had nausea in beginning but it got better as did tremors,hair stopped falling and every once in a while would have 2-3 days where everything lifted.Felt balanced in mind body spirit emotions. Will add more later.
[ 12-18-2009, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Healing in Santa Cruz ]
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
pyorka, it looks like you trust your practioners or you trust Scott. Until Dr. K makes a statement, I think that's about where we are with this.
My practioners also believe that the 250 is the dosage and are using elemental. I am backing down to 15 mg and took my kids down to 7mg.
I have no support in place with practioners for detox, and I believe Scott is right. I see that people are doing the protocol using Core and Depyrrol and do not think it is at all for maintenance.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Depyrrol has 30 mg elemental zinc.
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
Nah I don't distrust or trust my doctor or Scott. I know enough chemistry to know when things don't make sense that's all. But for that 250mg to be wrong multiple doctors including Dr. K and the first doctors that treated KPU back in the 80's would've had to know nothing about chemistry, which just can't be the case.
If any of you are that worried, remember that too much zinc will usually cause diarrhea much like magnesium does. Also remember Scott has been on the protocol for over 4 months so he should be at a lower dose at this point, so the confusion could have happened there.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
The written KPU Protocol from Dr. K's office which I received states:
"Zinc Picolinate 150-200 mg per day."
There is no doubt about it. I went and purchased zinc picolinate.
The variations come in as people get energetically tested that some people need less and some need more. I won't list the rest of the protocol.
Detox support is shown as: Test to determine which is best -- Detoxamin, DMSA, DMPS, OSR, MicroSilica -- often a combination of these is used. Only after energetic (ART) testing.
I am not listing the complete protocol, since you all were debating the zinc portion of it.
I am certain that CORE is ART tested for each patient and if the combination does not fit, other protocols are established to fit the patient's needs.
If someone -- patient - doctor - is unable to energetically test, they have to decide which is the best way to proceed.
With regard to KPU, the zinc can also be taken in the form of gluconate, i.e. 150-200 mg of Zinc gluconate.
This is an article talking about HPU aka KPU/
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Yes it does say that and Scott did say 25-50 mg elemental for the protocol, which is why we now need clarification from Dr. K.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I believe its all in these links. Thriiive videos also contain information. Unfortunately, I think there are problems with access to the Thriiive video site.
He recommends the sulfur based detox agents last in line. First start with the binders which will mop up the gut and matrix, then edta, then sulfur based.
He emphasizes supporting kidneys, body for KPU with electrolytes and minerals, baking soda, phosporus which is contained the biopure electrolyte drink. He has borrowed some information from the Vitamin K protocol as well. In the Thriiive videos, there was more emphasis on preparing for KPU.
Core should be energetically tested or one should go by mineral tests, which ones are most accurate for which mineral, I would like to know: hair, urine, RBC, lymphocyte (zinc).
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
Continuing what I was writing.About 3 week ago I started having more severe symptoms of all I have listed. Then more were added. Hair started falling again, I started dropping things,balance got off,nausea, dry heaves,on and off loose bowels,itching all over,my brain fog got extreme and confusion got very scary,tremors again,irritable and more. I had been doing all binders and they were energy tested.Baking soda baths had helped when things got bad before but they did not help with these out of hand symptoms.Scott wrote the new article and my Md got me right in and we lowered my dose of zink. He also read me a list of symptoms of being toxic zink and I had many.He is a homeopath besides being an Md and had a great list which is lots more than someone listed here for being zink toxic.I was on 90 mg and now on 45mg Of Thorne Zink Picolinate and happy to say symptoms are lifting.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I was doing all the things that R62 posted and still got into trouble.I felt at times like I was dying. My Md never put any of his patients on the 250 and we slowly ramped up. I feel Pyrroluria is a whole different ballgame when one has Lyme and co. The people that I know that are doing Core and the other all in one pill are not on maintenance.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I sent an email to Dr. K asking for clarification and that the clarification be sent out to all practioners concerned.
There is an obvious confusion over this that needs to be officially clarified.
I hope others will also contact Dr. K.
I am not suggesting a deluge, but I doubt this will even come close to that.
Dr. K needs to hear the extent of the confusion and the fact that this confusion extends to the practioner administering the protocol.
(Moderators, I think this post comment is OK but if this is inappropriate, I apologize.)
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
R62 Good idea,I don't see why it should be a problem.I would think Doc's and other professionals would have written him by now.Unless they think they understand it.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I think so. I hope so. My concern is for practioners who are not aware this is even an issue. They do not all follow Scott's blog. My practioners had never heard of Scott and when I talked with the medical coordinator, I had to impress upon her that Scott does not post this kind of info unless he is certain in his mind and that he is very credible. Of course, that would mean they would have to take my word on that.
Posted by zombie (Member # 23294) on :
I would imagine that, if one was taking a supplement designed for KPU (Depyrrol or CORE) at the correct dosage, that all this confusion over zinc would be a non-issue, correct?
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Yes. If Scott is correct. The confusion also seems to lie in whether Scott is correct or not. I am assuming he is based on other sources I have run across.. most just forum posts and one in a book I have that mentions KPU and dosages.. it says 50 mg for zinc.
Some are under the impression that either of these 2 are for maintenance only.
Other than that, the CORE and Depyrrol are very specific in the supplements they contain. Not every one will test for them and will need to take each supp they do test for separately.
For example, those with CBS upregulations may have problems with B6 others may have problems with 5P5 form.
Not everyone needs the high doses of manganese, chromium, moly that is in the CORE product.
So it seems the some/many (?) people who are supplementing separately even as per practioner advice are using the salt doses when the zinc supplement is measuring elemental form.
The Depyrrol product is more basic than the CORE but still contains both forms of B6.
Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
I agree with what zombie posted.
I'm on 1/2 capsule of depyrrol.
I'm wondering, since the dose of zinc is within the adequate range, if it'll be as difficult for me as it was for you guys? Maybe it's a little easier on the body when you aren't taking high high amounts of zinc?
I'm hoping that this is the case. I'm hoping that I'll only see a mild worsening of symptoms and won't feel like I'm dying all over again. Healing in Santa Cruz, I'm sorry to hear that you felt like that on the protocol.
I still have high hopes for the protocol. It's just really nice to be able to talk to people who are going through it too.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
Thanks Little Lymie I appreciate your thoughtfulness. The thing is many of us have been on the separate KPU supps.I kept asking on different sites what peoples symptoms were and all they would say is its rough or hard. My body also did not test yes for all the supps like biotin and I forget what else.Now its seeming to want it and others. Just know that all the supps r not in the Core and the other one and if testing yes more needs to be added.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I also have high hopes for KPU as I feel its a big part fo the problem for many of us. Be sure to have binders on board when your body starts dumping metals and toxins.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Both of my kids test postive, and I want to make sure I address this correctly for them.
It horrifies me to think children especially may be overdosing on zinc.
I don't trust all energetic testing by all practioners all the time for zinc supplementation, or anything else for that matter. I think we have to use common sense as a barometer as was well as the proper blood, hair, urine testing.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Been away a couple days. Here's some thoughts:
1) The target for elemental zinc as I understand the protocol is between 25 and 50mg per day of elemental zinc. There are variances in the salt->elemental amounts, but the 200-250mg zinc salts is an approximate to yield the proper amount of elemental zinc.
2) Many have said that this protocol should only be done with a doctor so anyone doing otherwise is taking some risks that may end up making them feel worse and taking more time to correct. It is not an easy protocol and I would never have done it without my doctors; even with, it was still not easy.
3) To avoid confusion in this area, there are products like Depyrrol from Europe and now Core from the US that, under the guidance of a practitioner, may be good choices for some of us. I am on Depyrrol now and when that runs out will move to Core.
4) As Gudrun noted, the information that is provided on klinghardtneurobiology.com and the products through BioPure are to be used with practitioner guidance. They are not intended to be used by the average person that is not working closely with their doctor on these protocols.
5) Everything that I have seen from Dr. K has suggested 250mg of a zinc salt, not elemental zinc. So if there is a confusion here, it is more about how the supplement companies label their products - that is what I found to be very confusing but with research and discussion with a couple of them, I came to understand this better.
6) Simply because a practitioner puts you on zinc does not mean you are on KPU - there are many aspects to KPU beyond zinc - though zinc is a very key part of it.
7) The details here on elemental vs. salt do not have anything to do with where I am in the protocol as I understand. If anything, you'd likely want to be more careful about too much zinc at the start as it will mobilize toxins and metals. So to say that 250mg elemental might good for the first few months and then you would drop back is not resonating with me.
8) If you buy 50mg Zinc Picolinate, that is the ELEMENTAL mg, not the picolinate mg. At least, that's my current understanding and what I was able to confirm with one of the companies of one of the products I was using.
9) The most recent Explore! states "Zinc 250mg per day (as Picolinate, Gluconate or Sulfate; liquid is more effective - equals about 1/6th of this as elemental zinc) for 3-4 months. Approximately 3-4mg/kg body weight. Less zinc may be needed later in treatment for maintenance. Nausea after zinc supplementation may be a sign of hypochlorhydria or low stomach acid. This tends to resolve after 2-4 months on the protocol." This seems clear that the elemental amount required is about 1/6th of the 250mg of zinc salt depending on which salt is being used. I think this seems clear so I am not sure what clarification beyond the above is needed.
10) Agree with zombie that now there is Core, it seems like there are options that will avoid much of this confusion and you will note Core has 27mg of elemental zinc from 160mg of zinc salts.
11) In general, KPU has been great for me - really helped to push along detoxification and improve things with my immune function, WBC count, etc. I just think that doing it with a doctor is critical. Keep in mind that though the general protocol may be up to around 50mg of elemental zinc, some may require more or less.
12) Tools besides energetic testing should be used along the way to monitor progress - hair tests, blood tests, etc. - all why this is NOT a do-it-yourself protocol.
Hope that helps. Be well
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Thank you for the detailed clarification, Scott.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I also thank you for the clarification and hope the practioners who are prescribing children up to 125 mg elemental zinc and adults up to 250 mg elemental zinc take your info seriously or that Dr. K addresses them personally, preferably the latter.
But you left one thing out:
PRACTIONERS ARE NOT ALL AWARE OF THIS INFORMATION. THEY DONT UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE IN THE PROTOCOL.
My practioner did not put me on zinc. I asked how high I could go with a negative test but suspecting I have KPU (without being on KPU protocol) and she said I could take up to 50 mg. THAT along with B6 (which I have been on), but that alone as well, could be considered to be on the KPU protocol if the zinc causes a HM detox and one has KPU even if they do not test positive.
I was on the KPU protocol without knowing it or being PREPARED because my practioner (who is Dr. K trained) does not understand the dosing of zinc for KPU. And because I am most likely positive even though my test was negative.
I was also told to ramp my son up to 125 mg elemental zinc.
I dont know how many times I have to say this for people to ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a PROBLEM.
I also do not understand why Dr. K would not want this clear as a bell, and Scott, it is not. The fact that people here have misunderstood as well as practioners is a sign there is a problem and need for more clarity from the source of the protocol.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I dont want to blame or crucify anyone.
I want this cleared up the way it needs to be cleared up.
How is this not perfectly clear?
I emailed your blog post, Scott, to my practioners representative. It is sitting on the desk of two practioners at the clinic I go to for review. They dont know you from Adam and I hope they take the info seriously and contact Dr. K for clarification, because they are confused.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
I hope they get the clarify they need as well. The latest writing on this in Explore! is quite clear though I acknowledge that some practitioners are not clear on this issue.
Onward and upward...
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Dr. K should contact all practioners trained in this to make sure they are clear, Scott. It is not my job to try to convince mine and I am very concerned for others.
I am not the only one this is happening to.
The Explore! article does not mention elemental zinc or does it? NO matter.. my practioners do not read these articles. The protocol comes from Dr. K. They dont have time to read blog posts or articles.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Yes, the Explore article quote I pasted above and it states:
Zinc 250mg per day (as Picolinate, Gluconate or Sulfate; liquid is more effective - equals about 1/6th of this as elemental zinc) for 3-4 months
Clarity is always a good thing. If these practitioners are Dr. K trained, then I would suggest they contact Dr. K for more details.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Again... how the heck can and will they contact him IF THEY DONT KNOW THEY ARE WRONG? Shame on my practioners if they dont. But what about the ones WHO DONT HAVE A CLUE?
I found the notes from a well known doctor online regarding this protocol by accident.. googled and there it was and he lists 250 mg of ZINC. PERIOD.
DO YOU GET THIS OR NOT? Dr. K needs to put out a STATEMENT.
The only reason I am even begging you is that I think you have personal contact with the man.
Im sick of this. I had another attack tonight and cannot tolerate keeping this up.
DONE.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
R62, I'm not continuing to debate this with you.
I've shared what I understand and hope that will help some to better understand this issue if they did not previously.
Other discussions on this matter are likely best directed to your own doctors.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Scott, I said I am done, then you say this. I dont want to debate. Never did.
I know you have more respect and influence in the lyme community, that honestly I dont care to have. Its not my goal or intent. I dont want to win a battle. I only want to be heard.
I cannot physically handle this back and forth and need to be done.
I already told you that I am concerned about the doctors who are not aware and their patients.
Can you identify with that or not?
Make sense Dr. K should contact them to make sure they understand his protocol or not?
Really I need to be done. I tried to talk with you not debate you and I dont hear you really listening.
I respect you alot, but this is really too much.
I cant physically handle it.
Best to you and your endeavors. I dont plan to communicate with you again. Thank you for the heads up on the elemental zinc. You have helped my family tremendously and I will be forever grateful for that.
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
scott, what blood tests should be done while on KPU?
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
Okay see this explore article is what Scott is referencing and I see where he's getting his thoughts from. "Zinc 250mg per day (as Picolinate, Gluconate or Sulfate; liquid is more effective - equals about 1/6th of this as elemental zinc) for 3-4 months "
it says the salts in parentheses because those are the best absorbed forms. And like I said before no knowledgeable doctor would say take 250mg of any of those salts because they all yield completely different amounts of elemental zinc. The 1/6th of this as elemental zinc is referring to the liquid zinc. Liquid minerals are already in electrolyte form and nearly all absorb right into your system.
I'm not saying 50mg of zinc is wrong... I'm just saying if it's right, then whoever wrote that Explore article and Dr. K's KPU protocol must have been extremely drunk.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I had to get off the computer last night as the confusion and R62 not being heard really overwhelmed me. I totally get where she is coming from. I am grateful Scott brought this info to many peoples attention but not everyone will be seeing it.I am hoping Dr K will address this and send info to people that attended the seminars back to when KPU first cam out. I thought everyone was understanding about the elemental part of this now,but from the pm's I am getting people still are not understanding it. They and there Docs are following the original info given out at the seminars and in written articles and r on to high of doses.Like R62 docs they do not have a clue.
Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
Is it possible to only feel better on depyrrol or core (more specifically depyrrol) and not have a massive die off or detox reaction? I'm wondering if it's possible to just boost detox a little and not actually shift a bunch of metals around. Maybe the massive doses of zinc are what shifted metals so significantly for you guys? Maybe on super low doses, like a capsule of depyrrol, you won't have such a huge healing crisis?
I completely agree with you Scott; I don't think it's necessarily wise to start with super high doses of zinc and then taper off. To me, it makes more sense to actually start with low doses to just start gently pushing things along, then build up to a higher dose so you don't shift the whole load too quickly. Maybe that's just our logic though. Every body is different.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Littlelymie, Ive heard of folks having to split the depyrrol pill the HM movement was so significant. That would be about 15 mg elemental zinc, which is the RDA. Strange that that little zinc could do that.
I dont know if the full dose started something they needed to slow down and the full dose was needed for that to happen or if they needed to start at a lower dose and that lower dose would have caused a milder detox that they could work up from.
From what I understand, the zinc builds up in the system. The body loses in through the heme in the urine and I think sweat and once you have more in than out, the process begins.. not sure if it is that black and white or not.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Little, I felt a little worse first with toxic symptoms. Then I felt better. Then I felt like I caught every bug that went around once my immune system kicked in.
I did not have the severe symptoms many talk about. Just ups and downs.
Now I don't have any symptoms at all from it.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Some of us have HM issues prior to any chelation that might happen with this protocol. We have it in gut and roaming around. I think this is true for me. When you add any little bit of detox on top of that, it could make it look like more HM were released than realy were.
Dr. K does talk about this in the Thriiive videos. He mentions I think taking a month or so to prepare for the detox by using mild binders that act in the gut and matrix like chlorella, microsilica and I think clay. I think he may have said to move on to detoxamin prior to the protocol as well, not sure. This info may be in the links above. The Thriiive videos are down.
Anyway, that could explain some severe reactions. Allergy to the HM and autoimmune response could as well. ??
Maybe some people just have more HM in their body. I cant remember if this protocol acts to push out environmental toxins as well.??
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I was on extremely low doses,and ramped up slowly.My Md was cautious from the beginning. I have done all types of binders,plus coffee enemas,baking soda baths and more. I also know people on Depyrrol that have had a hard time even cutting the pill in half. I had the biggest herpes outbreak 2 weeks ago that lasted till we dropped my dose. Article by Mercola and K say high zink and I think merc can cause this.Many lymies also have herpes.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
"Many Lyme patients suffer from Pyrroluria, a metabolic illness where abnormal porphyrins carry out significant amounts of needed zinc and vitamin B6. Diagnosis is made with the appropriate test at Vitamin Diagnostics in New Jersey. Even though it is assumed that this illness is hereditary, I have my doubts, since most Lyme sufferers have a degree of it. I suspect that the appearance of kryptopyrroles in the urine is induced by the illness.
However, I am careful with excessive substitution of zinc. Zinc has a synergistic effect with mercury in the brain and also promotes the growth of the herpes viruses."
So you may also have been dealing with the effect of the zinc mercury combo...
I dont want to imagine the consequences of practioners who are prescribing up to 125 mg of zinc in elemental form for a child.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
I think that under the care of a doctor, it may make sense in some cases to do a higher dose. That said, it is very important to monitor it closely and will likely release metals that the doctor needs to be ready for. So, though in some cases, 200mg of elemental zinc might be used, it would be for only a few months and only under close observation.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I can see that ( possibly in some cases) but only not if the practioners are blindly prescribing 125 mg of zinc in elemental form for a child and 250 for an adult while thinking they are following the KPU protocol.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I have a book written in 99 called Depression Free Naturally by Joan Mathews Larson This is before it was connected with chronic illness,lyme etc. The dose there is 25 mg of zink picolinate 3 X a day.I feel there is lots of good info in the book although not all about Pyrroluria but has the best symptom list I have seen and whole list of supps.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I have that book, Healing. You mentioned it on another thread and I purchased it.
She does list as you say up to 75 mg zinc. She also has really high numbers for B6 .. 250 mg or until dream occurs. 50 mg for p5p. She has the manganese at 10 mg X2 a day.
I am concerned about B6 (just to be aware) because according to Dr. AY it produces (somehow) the same toxin that Bb does.. quinolinic acid. Also those of us with the CBS upregulations may not handle B6 well in large doses. My daugher also has a cbs upregulation so we have to be aware of that for her as well.
I see where Dr. K also says that some cannot handle the B6 and some cannot handle the p5p.
Dr. AY also has an interesting perspective on manganese.. I had never heard.. it can accumulate in some tissues with lymies.. it can also be depleted b/c Bb uses it and it feeds it (as Dr. K has said in the past)and it is also neurotoxic (read that elsewhere and also found it listed as a heavy metal). She mentioned getting manganese from black walnut and deal with parasites at the same time. I guess that would work for some people.. not sure there is enough manganese there for folks who need higher amounts. But a good idea.
I read somewhere that zinc can bring out a virus (not sure if it was a herpes virus..) that causes nerve problems. I wonder if that happened in your case.
Too little zinc and copper for parkinsons and too much for parkinsons.
one way to scare oneself out of a protocol.:-)
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
I am doing way smaller dose's of all the other supps she lists in the book and down to 45 Zink. My friend a non lymie was on the protocol by this book and at first she felt really good,the best in her life and then took a nose dive emotionally and physically. She then quit. She never did the test and did it on her own. Hard to know what is happening in my case.I know more than on virus has lifted its head.All I know is the last 2 weeks have been not fun.Time will tell.
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
So, if my bottle says this (Twinlab chelated zinc):
... there really isn't any way to be sure if the 50 mg refers to `elemental zinc' without asking the company directly, right?
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Truthfinder, it is likely ELEMENTAL. It seems that in the US that is the way it is done - though that does not seem to be the international standard.
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Thanks, Scott. I dropped an email to Twinlab and asked. No response yet.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I think the RDA goes by elemental dosage. 15 mg of elemental zinc is 100% RDA, so any supplement listing mg by RDA % would be measuring elemental. So 50 would be... I cant do the math right now.. 333% (?) on the bottle and would be measuring the elemental amount. My Thorne zinc picolinate 30 mg is 200% RDA. 15 is 100% RDA..
The CORE supplement is 27 mg elemental and lists that as 180% of RDA if memory serves me there.
I have seen bottles list the mg of the source of the elemental but will also then list the elemental as RDA %. The source is usually in parenthesis.
(trying to clarify.. list the source as zinc picolinate for esample but list the mg as elemental. if they list the source (salt for zinc) in mg, it is usually in parenthesis and right under or next to the source name of the supplement. The elemental is listed with the RDA %)
I think Scott is right. Most if not all US supps go by RDA, so elemental.
I think this may be different in Europe and could explain the confusion..
[ 12-21-2009, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: R62 ]
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
Truthfinder,glad you popped in here.Keep us posted what they say.Thanks Scott and R for hanging in here with this and working on getting it figured out.And Scott I need to say again I am very grateful that you put this out to the lyme community.
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
It appears that Scott and R62 are correct.
Twinlab said that their labels on minerals will always list the ELEMENTAL amount in milligrams.
Yes, Healing, I'm grateful that this was clarified here for those of us interested!
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
littlelymie (hi!) -- i was on a low dose of Core for quite a long time - about five weeks - before i experienced noticeable heavy metal dumping. and it was BAD. of course i'm not saying that will be everyone's experience, but it could take awhile for the metals to start moving. i thought i felt better on the Core at first, too. little did i know. :/
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
That's the expected course - the metals will come - they will dump. This protocol is not easy - be ready. Doing it without a doctor is an unnecessary risk that may lead to problems.
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
Shoot I just talked to my doctor and they said my KPU test results were only at 6.7 They are confused as well because my other tests seem to make them think I would have it. Like low alkaline phosphatase, high MCV and MCH, low taurine.
Does anyone know how reliable that test is? I had it done at vitamin diagnostics.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Heiwalove, doing KPU without first doing AI is not something I would do. You are starting to mobilize a mountain of metals that have no place to go because most likely, like everyone with Lyme who has done the AI test, has metal and some serious chemical allergies, plus a bunch of others. What will the body do with these toxic substances if the immune system does not recognize them as toxic because your body reacts allergic to them?
My husband is on KPU now and it is a breeze to do. Metals are moving, but with little symptomatic and certainly not a protocol that I would call difficult. All that because we made AI the priority. We are at bottle #10, so major problems have been cleared, i.e. wheat, soy, all foods, toxic heavy metals (mercury, lead, nickle, copper, etc.) all mucor, fungi and mold, a huge number of chemical allergies, all the emotional and inherited traumas, nightmares, inherited miasms,have been cleared. The body is able to regulate again.
You may want to give this some thought. www.allergie-immun.de (click on English). Or read the Allergie Immun Thread here on LN.
I take 2 CORE. My hairtest showed low zinc and mediocre phosphorus. All that is involved in the heme problem. I have no negative reactions to CORE. In fact, I think it makes the metal flow a lot easier. All it needs is the different grabbers to bind. I tensor test for these. Just the fact of having Lyme a number of years makes it pretty clear that KPU was and is a factor. But to me clearing the dysregulations comes before everything else. Doing biophotons for Lyme in Germany (the way it was done) was the worst thing to do because it simply ignores the metal and chemical and environmental toxicities that are at the very base of Lyme. Live and learn. Putting the cart before the horse when the horse has lost its way is wrong. I feel the same way about KPU when I hear of the
I can take DMSA, cilantro, NDF, and the different chlorella forms together, with a Kelatox suppositoriy the same evening, without any great discomfort. Before AI, these together would have blocked my system and wiped me out. Now I hardly know it's there.
Take care.
Posted by zombie (Member # 23294) on :
How large are the CORE capsules? What about Depyrrol? I have difficulty swallowing pills.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
Hi Zombie, I am waiting to get my Core. Soooo not sure the size. I have heard peeps r cutting them in half to get smaller dose. Maybe that will help you.I am feeling better since my Md dropped my zink dose. At least I don't feel like I am dying anymore.Joyce
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Not sure how you would cut Core in half as I thought it was a capsule. You might be able to open the capsules and just take the powder.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Zombie, the 00 size of a mag capsule is 7/8 "long; the Core is 5/8" long and much smaller diameter, probably veg cap size "0". A small capsule. Depyrrol Basic is the small size "0" also. Capsule can be opened and taken halfed in liquid.
At this time, I do not take CORE any longer at this point (took it about three days). The AI at the present time seems to result in enough metal/neurotoxin outflow for me personally and enough I want to deal with. Same for my husband. So please take AI effects into consideration, once you reach that point in that therapy. I definitely got a superb hair test result due to AI, without any CORE or Depyrrol.
A "normal" dose of CORE is 4 caosules. One of the reasons it was done this way, so people can take smaller amounts more easily, if they need to.
Weigh all very carefully, especially without being done with AI.
When it comes to metal detox, as far as body having to deal with the outflow, more is not better. Easy does it. Crashing is not healing.
Take care.
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
Scott,Thanks for clarifying. Joyce
Posted by zombie (Member # 23294) on :
GiGi, it sounds more and more like KPU protocol may not be needed once the full course of Allergie-Immun therapy has been completed...
I am on round #7 of AI (not sure how many more I will need, possibly many) and simply researching KPU to see if it might be an option for me down the road.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Zombi, that's a good approach. Nothing is gained by hurrying. Our body has and runs by its own clock. It will do what it needs to do when it is good and ready.
Hoping for a Healthy New Year for you, Zombie, and all who so desperately need it.
Take care.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
KPU is not *only* for detoxing. It's correcting a deficiency of nutrients. You do detox when you correct this deficiency.
I don't know much about how it fits with AI, but they are two different things. Perhaps AI might help the body correct what is causing the deficiency, but that I do not know.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Even if AI helps the body correct the reason or reasons for deficiency caused by dysregualtion even KPU. There could be nutritional holes that need filling I would think? Possibly not as much because the holes are not "leaking" or "leaking" as much. ??
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
I see AI and KPU as two different things. KPU is supplying minerals and other nutrients that the body is deficient in - and has been for years. I agree that if one has started AI and dealt with metals using AI, the KPU treatment may be less difficult when the metals start to be released. However, I'm not yet clear that AI would eliminate the need for KPU and replacement of missing nutrients. I have been doing AI for almost a year and have been doing KPU for about 9 months. I wish I had done a bit more AI first in hopes that it may have made KPU easier than it was, but I do not think AI would eliminate the need for it.
Just my opinion.
Posted by zombie (Member # 23294) on :
I don't know, it's just a theory I have at this point.
Lightparfait may provide us with an answer soon.
She tested very + for KPU but is holding off on doing the protocol until she completes AI, at which point she will retest for KPU.
Thanks for the New Year wishes, GiGi! A Happy, Healthy New Year to all!!!
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
To remedy the leaky gut situation and thereby correct absorption problems caused by a huge range of dysfunctions may take 1-2 years. Holes in the gut! Enzyme production. Myelin damage. Dentrite growth. Detoxing. Detoxing always leaves a mark in how one feels. Some may have quick results. Some will take time. With either therapy. Sticking to the rules of AI is important. Since AI can speak plain German with me, I have been told more than once "do not add more to the pile we are in the process trying to remove".
Take care.
Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
I wish I did not have to be on the KPU nutrients while on the Allergie-Immun drops!
However, one effect of Lyme or its treatment is that I now get seizures. I can tell when one is likely to occur by how my body feels.
By utilizing the supplements in an article I found here at Lymenet on treating seizures without pharmaceuticals, I'm able to keep the seizures from happening.
What are the supplements? Zinc, B-6 (200-600 mg a day!), Taurine, magnesium, copper, niacin, B complex. Sound familiar???
When I was in communication with AI about these, Herr G. wanted me to quit them. However, when I told him I needed them to prevent seizures, he emailed me back to continue if I felt they were vital, which I do.
Best,
Cass A
Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
Dear Cass, so glad to see the supps r helping u. Blessings to u getting better and better. KPU is big part of the healing for many of us.I have no worries about doing KPU and AI together.Happy 1010 to you Joyce
Posted by dan67 (Member # 20344) on :
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