I am wondering if the L-form of Lyme bacteria is a result of antibiotics...as the cyst form is or if it is just another life form of Lyme that will live inside a cell and keep you ill forever more.
From my understanding, Lyme bacteria prefers to live in spirochete form and in this form can be killed by penicillins or cephalosporins.
Cysts are formed when the spirochetes sense the antibiotics and encapsulate themselves until they sense your blood is clean again or they get killed by Flagyl or Tinidazole.
I know the L-form is targeted by Doxy, Macrolides, or Ketek but is it a survival form? When you are clean of antibiotics, will it revert into a spirochete, just like a cyst.
Reason being, the cycling of high dose Ceftin or the like makes perfect sense, if the L-form will also be drawn out when you take time off antibiotics. I'm planning my future.
Thanks to anyone who can enlighten me.
Posted by David Miller (Member # 21583) on :
I think there's a lack of agreement on whether the L-form and cyst forms are really different. I'm not sure that most abx will kill the L-form - they bind to some particular protein and keep it from reproducing. Bacteriacidal abx like penicillin may have better luck with it than the bacteriostatics.
The cyst form in particular is formed as a survival mechanism as you say, but it'll do so under nutrient deprivation as well as abx attack.
Posted by bv (Member # 9578) on :
In her book, Stealth Pathogens, Lida Mattman seems to use L form & cyst form interchangably as the form assume by BB in a hostile environment.
The ability to change form is seen as an evolutionary adaptation to enhance survival in a hostile environment.
The hostile enviroment can be created by abx such as penecillin or cephalosporins (such as ceftin) which target the cell form by interfereing with celluar formation.
W/o expressly mentioning LD, Mattman seems to suggest treating these microrganisms that can change form with a cell wall abx (penecillin or ceftin) and an abx that can target the L form, such as doxy.
Posted by lymebytes (Member # 11830) on :
My understanding was that L-form occurs before cystic form, but I have also heard that doctor's now aren't sure if they are really different.
A few years back at a conference Biaxin was mentioned for L-form. Some doctor's believe that Biaxin may also prevent cystic form.
But nothing is written in stone obviously since so much more needs to be known about the disease.
Posted by migs (Member # 16496) on :
hmmm. Thanks for the replies. I also had this discussion with an LLMD who believes it is a survival form...similar to a cyst.
It sounds like it would be logical that an L-form left untreated with antibiotics would indeed take the form of a spirochete.
I am starting to understand more why the Pamela Weintraub and Burrascanno cure worked. I have contacted a couple people that have tried it but have only used 2000mg Ceftin daily. I would guess the success stories were using 3000mg or more.
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Scroll down to the heading Infection With L-form Bacteria
It's about the L-form invading macrophage white blood cells and taking over their nucleus to turn on genes that cause release of inflammatory cytokines, proteins that generate pain and/or fatigue. The cytokines include interferon gamma and TNF-alpha.
Posted by migs (Member # 16496) on :
Good article. Kind of a mindbender, being a layman, but informative.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
migs,
I'm like you... I've changed up my entire protocol with the idea of enticing them to come out and then killing for month or so.
Then take a break let some come out... then kill for month or 2.
Dr. B did this and recommends it as a cleanup-maintenance type protocol.
I think Ceftin is the drug of choice.
I might combine it with Doxy. Not sure yet.
Posted by migs (Member # 16496) on :
canefan17 - I also spoke with an LLMD in Seattle who is currently trying this with some of his patients.
It's new territory for him but he is planning on 6 weeks cycles of high dose abx targeting all 3 forms...followed by waiting to become fully symptomatic and doing it again...and repeat process.
I'd like to hear how it works for you and what your doses are. I imagine they need to be high for this kind of wave attack.
I see this LLMD in March, so if I remember, I'll get back as to how it's going for his patients.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
I have, in my arsenal
Doxy Plaquenil Ceftin Flagyl Malarone Zith
My main protocol will be Ceftin 1000mg, Doxy 400mg, Flagyl 500mg-1000mg
Treat for 4-6 weeks. Take 1-2 weeks off Repeat a couple times
Switch Abx's
[ 02-04-2010, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: canefan17 ]
Posted by Beachinit (Member # 21040) on :
I am pulsing in metronidazole low dose (500 mg/day) alternating with higher dose of same to avoid cyst forms and encourage spiral forms and then wacking those with Zithro (500-750mg/day) 5 on and 3-4 days off. So far seems promising. Only finishing first course though. Is more interesting than the 4.5 months on doxycycline which though helpful made for bad tummy aches.
Beachinit.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
beachnit,
Why the 3-4 days off with Zith? Just curious?
Posted by Haley (Member # 22008) on :
Cane fan. I'm also taking Doxy with Falgyl (pulsing). I thought that Dr. B says that Doxy will inhibit the action of the Flagyl. Any thoughts.
I'm doing it anyway as people have said it is effective. I have RMSF and Ehrlichia so that is why I'm on the IV Doxy. I need to add Flagyl some day as I want to hit the cysts.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
I just take them apart from each other (doxy and flagyl)
*shrugs shoulders*
What does Dr. S say?
Posted by Amanda (Member # 14107) on :
I don't think you are supposed to pulse Mepron or malarone, it supposidly leads to drug resistance in Babesea.
I tried pulsing, and it didn't work for me, I declined. My LLMD doesn't think it is a good idea to pulse drugs for co-infections and/or if your con-infections aren;t under control.
But maybe it will work for you!
Posted by JOLA (Member # 23498) on :
Migs I too see LLMD in Seattle. Dr R. Just finishing
off 6month of mepron and switched to flagyl/mino
but couldn't take the flagyl. Will see him in
March as well and will discuss this protocol with
him. Have tried many combos and think biaxin/
ceftin worked best for me so far.
Posted by Beachinit (Member # 21040) on :
Canefan, Want to give microbes a false sense of security and also have zithro hanging around in the tissue much longer. Tissue level is much,much much greater than serum level with zithro so it hangs around for a long time. I can avoid wasting medicine and lull the borrelia into false sense of security at the same time . . . then wham, hit it again, hopefully each time gaining more help from those T-cells gradually waking them up to those everchanging Treponemal antigens. Staying on metro at all times - to avoid cyst hideout niche and just lower dose when off Zithro due to worse nerve tingling sx at 1 gm/day dose if I take it every day.
Power to the patient,
Beachinit.
Posted by Beachinit (Member # 21040) on :
Jola,
I started on metronidazole (flagyl) by breaking the 250 mg tabs in half. I took 1/2 tab X 1 on day 1, X2 on day 2, x3 on day three etc. It is a nasty med but it does Rock. See The Brorsons research in Norway in vitro. Anyway it took me 4-5 days to finally get up to 1 gm/day and then I started the Zithro. Approach would most likely work with tetracyclines like mino. Both mino and zithro are working to stop protein synthesis at different ribosomal subunits though.
Better living thru science,
Beachinit.
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
I find this fascinating. How do you suppose we could get the results? CD57? I light of the fact
most of us try to work with what works for us- could we come up with a test to determine kill?
Say urine or bowel excretion of toxins from kill? I think they like to withhold medicine from us
because of this- If we had proof it was producing a kill they could not stop it-by saying 4 weeks is enough. Idealistically.
Posted by Beachinit (Member # 21040) on :
Some are taking cell wall inhibitor like ceftin or Amoxicillin plus protein systhesis inhibitor like tetra/doxy/mino plus cyst preventer like metronidazole. Some are taking all three at the same time. So I am wondering if anyone can comment on alterating 2 types of antibiotics in close succession versus taking all 3 together at same time. Which has worked better?
Searching for knowledge,
Beachinit.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
beachnit,
I have taken
doxy plaquenil flagyl ceftin
All at same time. Worked great for me.
I feel like a put a dent in Lyme. Now it's on to babesia.
Posted by Beachinit (Member # 21040) on :
Thank you canefan17 for the info. Did you feel the plaquenil added a good share to your response?