Is there a way to tell if what you are feeling is toxicity or a herx?
I am not quite sure what a babs herx really feels like but things have worsened since doing IV Zith, Malarone, and Art.
I already have the head fog(severe), spaciness, nausea, rocking boat feeling, completely out of it but now those symptoms are roaring. I feel poisioned.
Am I toxic or is this a herx?
Don't want to keep pushing more meds if I'm toxic but I have only been on this med cycle for 3 days and things are bad. Posted by lyme in Putnam (Member # 11561) on :
My llmd would be thrilled and say its a herx. I can't tell either. If you feel that bad, I know previously I got off.
Posted by jenny76 (Member # 18205) on :
Thank you for responding. I'm just coming off of a 3 week break from meds as I was trying to concentrate on detox but went downhill. Now I'm back on meds and feel like I'm being poisioned.
Not sure what to think.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Both. One theory of herxing is that your body isn't getting rid of the toxins fast enough. Maybe do more detox while you feel bad. Sounds like you're hitting something with the meds.
Posted by jenny76 (Member # 18205) on :
Thanks Six....do you have any ideas for me for detox? I don't know what more to do really. I do IV Glutathione two times a week and Colonics once a week. I also do Burbur 3 times a day and drink Lemon water. I have to do all of this away from abx though so it's hard to fit it all in.
Posted by stork (Member # 24167) on :
I consider a herx to be two things. The feeling of an active infection dying in your body (really, the release of toxins), and the resulting toxin buildup that your body cannot process quickly enough. From what I've read, it seems that the lyme bacteria produces a potent neurotoxin when it is killed. This explains why your neurosymptoms are worsening with treatment.
Can you do anerobic exercise (weightlifting, etc?) Sweating/far infared sauna will help, some say up to 30-40% with detox.
Take Milk Thistle, it's helped a lot. I've found that burbur is great for stopping a herx, but not as good for maintenance detox. For example, when I feel a herx coming on I put two drops or so under the tongue every 5 minutes. Really helps clear the crap out within a matter of 20-30 minutes. But, when I drink 10 drops in the AM in a glass of water, it doesn't seem to have that much of a protective effect.
Gluthione is pretty intense, that will probably help deal with metal binding but maybe not with lyme toxins. I wouldn't be the best person to comment on that.
Posted by stork (Member # 24167) on :
I consider a herx to be two things. The feeling of an active infection dying in your body (really, the release of toxins), and the resulting toxin buildup that your body cannot process quickly enough. From what I've read, it seems that the lyme bacteria produces a potent neurotoxin when it is killed. This might explain why your neurosymptoms are worsening with treatment.
Can you do anerobic exercise (weightlifting, etc?) Sweating/far infared sauna will help, some say up to 30-40% with detox.
Take Milk Thistle, it's helped me a lot. I've found that burbur is great for stopping a herx, but not as good for maintenance detox. For example, when I feel a herx coming on I put two drops or so under the tongue every 5 minutes. Really helps clear the crap out within a matter of 20-30 minutes. But, when I drink 10 drops in the AM in a glass of water, it doesn't seem to have that much of a protective effect.
Glutathione is pretty intense, that will probably help deal with metal binding but maybe not with lyme toxins. I wouldn't be the best person to comment on that.
Posted by stork (Member # 24167) on :
Also makes sense that new meds will be killing off ridiculous amounts of ketes and then producing many more toxins than you're used to. I would weather the storm if possible because it will eventually get better, but if your life becomes unliveable you could always take a less agressive approach for a longer period of time.
Posted by jenny76 (Member # 18205) on :
Thanks so much Stork!
I am really too sick to do much exercise at this point unfortunately. I am so incredibly weak and off balance when walking or standing...like a rocking boat.
I just want to know that I'm doing the right thing treating right now. In the past I only got a very short treatment for babs even though I tested positive via a PCR screen. I would say only like 2 months of pulsed treatment. Def not enough. So now I am back to treating it as my LLMD thinks that may be what is holding me back from getting better and only getting worse.
I was told I cannot go into a sauna because of my PICC line and I have dysautonomia so when I get too hot I black out.
Thanks for the info on the burbur. I didn't know I could do it like that.
Thanks again for responding...it helps to get support like this.
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
jenny76,
I would encourage you to take a detox bath. Recipe for this is posted on the forum. You can find it doing a search.
It consists of three ingredients; epson salt, hydrogen peroxide, grated ginger all mixed in a nice warm bath. It definitely will release toxins from you and help to make you feel much better.
You can also look up the foot detox recipe here which is also quite helpful.
Gary
Posted by kidsgotlyme (Member # 23691) on :
I'm with Gary. The detox bath, along with dry brushing, has really helped my daughter with getting the toxins moving out of her body.
She has a lot of emotional pain when she herxes, and this helps her so much.
Posted by stork (Member # 24167) on :
Sounds like I need to try the baths w/brushing myself! I keep hearing good things. Kind of hard to pull off at school though - no bathtubs Thanks for the heads up guys.
Posted by jenny76 (Member # 18205) on :
So you guys are thinking toxicity then?
I do epsom salt baths every night. 2-4 cups in the water. Is that correct?
Thanks!!
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
jenny76,
Yes, but it's better if you add hydrogen peroxide too. Put some grated ginger in a tea ball or cheese cloth so that it will help open up the pores of your skin. Dry brush first as this also helps open the pores of your skin in addition to removing toxins.
Gary
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I've been taking just artemesinin. Seems like I'm herxing too but I have different symptoms. Mine are mostly malaise, fatigue, intestinal pain & just a crappy mood.
I'm not absolutely sure I have babs but I figured I'd try the artemesia. I'm taking some other supplements & herbs but no abx.
I was just thinking the same thing - is this a herx, is it toxins, or is it a reaction to the herbs? Does this mean I'm getting better or will i just end up in the same place as when I started?
It feels yucky... I've been taking Dr Schulze's intestinal cleanse #2. It has alot of binders like charcoal, psylium, clay, pectin. That can absorb alot of the toxic junk. Also, drinking iced mint tea (it's pretty hot here).
Sometimes I cut back for a while to get back to some kind of "normal". It's not good to overdo it.
It good to hear that you are herxing, too - not that it's good to suffer but maybe we are accomplishing something...? It's always a guessing game...
FYI - CFS Dr. C is using artemesia for XMRV from what I gather.
Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
Try parsley for detox and do the epsom bath ! Posted by janice victorov (Member # 22937) on :
WC, Does the parsley really help? Have you ever heard of using burbur for helping stop a herx? Posted by jenny76 (Member # 18205) on :
Is the dry brushing necessary? It sounds like it would be but I have not been doing that.
janice I do the burbur for herxes. Doesn't seem to help me much Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Herx's are toxins
Posted by lauriemay1 (Member # 24153) on :
My daughter dry brushes, it cleans off the dead skin and helps to open your pores to detox while in the bath.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
They are one in the same, IMO. It is a result of cells dying.
Think about this:
A new motorcycle helmet for a driver has been created that on impact (an accident) suddenly COOLS the driver's head.
Reducing the inflammation that happens immediately when cells are damaged...until that person can get to a hospital and be given drugs to control the healing process.
***Inflammation IS part of the healing process,*** but too much too fast is life-threatening.
Too much inflammation (esp. the brain) is very very dangerous.
And yes..."cooling helmets" have been developed to fight AD too (as well as to protect hair loss which happens as a result of chemotherapy).
Pretty amazing.
Now maybe you see why lyme patients have lower body temperatures. It is a way to CONTROL the amt. of inflammation.
One way.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Interesting point, Marnie!
I used to go to a Korean bathhouse when I lived in NJ. They had tubs & pools with various temperatures as well as saunas, steam rooms, etc.
I usually tend towards liking heat but the cold pools made me feel better, too. You can alternate them at this bathhouse.
Dr. Schulze has an "incurables" program where he does this with alternating hot & cold showers & wrapping up in a cold sheet. Maybe there's some good in alternating the hot & cold.
It's in other cultures, as well - like Scandinavia & doing a sauna & rolling in the snow or pouring cold water on yourself...
I didn't find alot of relief from the burbur or parsley Nutramedix tinctures. Green tea was useful but if it gets really bad - I usually take a small amount of pain meds.
Yes, I do think herxes are caused by toxins (so it's the same thing unless it's a side effect of a drug or supplement). My question is whether these are productive? People feel they are an indication that we are doing something constructive but I've gone through "worse then better" & ended up the same - except that I just suffered...
It's hard to go through this & not know if it's actually accomplishing something positive.
Posted by Wolfed Out (Member # 23727) on :
Marnie,
I'm trying to figure out how your thoughts relate to me.
See, when I started having problems with skin as a teenager, and having weird symptoms that are likely attributed to Bartonella, I always found relief in the cold.
It made my skin rash/hives go away, and something about it was refreshing -- especially if I had some alcohol in me. Of course, I could tolerate lower temperatures better when I was intoxicated, or at least it changed my perception of it.
I don't believe at this point I had lower body temperatures (LBT) though. It wasn't until last year, that I noticed LBT became a chronic symptom for me.
But, I'm struggling to understand your viewpoint. From your perspective, I see that having a lower body temperature is a way for the body to combat the inflammation process. But, there are contradicting theories that Lyme thrives in cooler body temperatures.
So, is the objective to leave low body temperature where it is? Or should raising the body temperature be an objective part of treatment...?
From your perspective, Marnie.
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
quote:Originally posted by jenny76: Is the dry brushing necessary? It sounds like it would be but I have not been doing that.
janice I do the burbur for herxes. Doesn't seem to help me much
This is a quote from my wife, daisyrb that I copied and pasted from another post:
* I Dry Skin Brush twice a day. Did you know, according to Dr. J's book, that the skin organ releases up to two pounds of waste a day, waste=toxins! (Dry Skin Brushing is such a simple thing. The toxic world we live in, I personally believe everyone should do this--Lyme or not.)
Gary
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
I think we have to get the inflammation down ...bigtime(!)
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