This is topic Is it normal to get worse with antibiotics? in forum Medical Questions at LymeNet Flash.


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Posted by luke'smom (Member # 26341) on :
 
Our LLMD started my son on Zythromax 250 mg and Augmentin 500. Zyth for 3 days then Aug. for 4 days alternating. His symptoms seem to be getting worse. Is this normal? We haven't gotten Western Blot results back yet so I don't even know if he has Lyme, but this is a little scary. What could it mean?
 
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Yes, very normal. It's called a herxheimer reaction. It's pretty much confirmation that he has Lyme if he's having one. Most illnesses only get better .... lyme gets worse first.
 
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
 
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What LIVER SUPPORT is your son taking? That is essential to managing a herx. Liver support can also help protect the ears. Milk Thistle is most common for liver support.

When spirochetes get irritated they emit toxins. And that irritation to them can be nearly anything. That is why lyme patients feel so awful so much of the time. Even a little vibration will irritate spirochetes. Too much heat, too much movement.

Still the herxheimer reaction - from "chemical assault" (even if from a strong herb) - is very real.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxheimer_reaction

Herxheimer reaction

The Herxheimer reaction (also known as Jarisch-Herxheimer or Herx) occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as bacteria (typically Spirochetal bacteria) die, due to antibiotic treatment or rapid detoxification.

Typically the death of these bacteria and the associated release of endotoxins occurs faster than the body can remove the toxins via the natural detoxification process performed by the kidneys and liver.

It is manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgia (muscle pain), and exacerbation of skin lesions.

Duration in syphilis is normally only a few hours but can be much longer, up to months or years, for other diseases, especially Lyme Disease. The intensity of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation present.

The Herxheimer reaction has shown an increase in inflammatory cytokines during the period of exacerbation, including tumor necrosis factor alpha, interleukin-6 and interleukin-8.[1][2]

The reaction is also seen in other diseases, such as borreliosis (Lyme disease[3][4] and tick-borne relapsing fever[5]), bartonellosis, brucellosis, typhoid fever, Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, and trichinellosis, Q fever, and cat scratch disease.[6][7]

. . . much more at link above.

========================

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

PubMed Search for Medical Abstracts:

Herxheimer Reaction - 233 abstracts

Especially note herxheimer abtracts with Leptospirosis, another spirochetal infection.
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Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
 
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LIVER SUPPORT LINKS are 3/4 of the way down page one:
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http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=065801

Topic: TINNITUS: Ringing Between The Ears; Vestibular, Balance, Hearing with compiled links - including HYPERACUSIS
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Posted by luke'smom (Member # 26341) on :
 
I was wondering what herx meant? Thank you so much. What can we expect next? His main symptom is tics. They are worse and last night he had a complete meltdown and it was like he couldn't stand to be in his own skin. He just laid on the floor and cried and screamed and squirmed. It was awful. He's done this before, but not for a long time.
 
Posted by luke'smom (Member # 26341) on :
 
He is not currently on any liver support. Is Milk Thistle the best to take? He had that meltdown and finally settled down enough to go to bed and today he's fine (so far). Any suggestions on how to help him through this? How long does it take for the Milk Thistle to help?
 
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Try giving him some lemon water. If it helps, then you might put him on an alkalinizing diet.
 
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
 
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Is he supplementing with magnesium? That usually helps neurological (or toxin-related) tics.

Magnesium also helps lessen the herx.

I can't comment on what a child's dose for Milk Thistle would be - or if there is a better liver support than that for a child.

I know there have been other threads recently asking about a child's dose, etc.

I have to stop. neighbors are playing with fireworks. I may be off computer for the next few days now.

I will post a full set of complementary links and you may find what you need there. Good luck.
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Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
 
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To compare and contrast the work of authors regarding some of the most common complementary or integrative paths.
=========================

http://www.lymepa.org/html/dr__j__burrascano_september_20_0.html

Burrascano's Powerpoint SLIDE presentation 9-20-08

------------

http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

Advanced Topics in Lyme Disease (Diagnostic Hints and Treatment Guidelines for Lyme and Other Tick Borne Illnesses

Dr. Burrascano's Treatment Guidelines (2008) - 37 pages

------------
As important as any supplements, sections regarding self-care:

Go to page 27 for SUPPORTIVE THERAPY & the CERTAIN ABSOLUTE RULES

and also pages 31-32 for advice on a safe, non-aerobic exercise plan and physical rehabilitation.

----------------------
This is included in Burrascano's Guidelines, but you may want to be able to refer to it separately, too:

http://www.lymepa.org/Nutritional_Supplements.pdf

** Nutritional Supplements in Disseminated Lyme Disease **

J.J. Burrascano, Jr., MD (2008) - Four pages

======================

http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/images/Lymewhat_is_it_part_3,_LIA.pdf

LYME DISEASE Considerations in Diagnosis and Management

June 26, 2008 Lyme-Autism Connection Conference

125 pages - Powerpoint presentation

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By the same author as above, Chapter 1 from the book "Insights Into Lyme Disease Treatment"

http://www.lymebook.com/steven-harris

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http://www.amazon.com/Insights-Into-Lyme-Disease-Treatment/dp/0982513801/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272566632&sr=1-1

Insights Into Lyme Disease Treatment: 13 Lyme-Literate Health Care Practitioners Share Their Healing Strategies

Connie Strasheim (Author), Maureen Mcshane M.D. (Foreword), Thirteen Lyme-Literate Doctors (Contributor)

==================

http://www.klinghardtneurobiology.com/LymeProtocolOct09.pdf
A Treatment Guide: Lyme and other Chronic Infections

by Dietrich Klinghardt, MD, PhD

October 2009 - 87 pages

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http://www.klinghardtneurobiology.com/popups/PC1.html

Online Radio Interview

===============

www.lyme-disease-research-database.com/lymenutritionfile1_files/Integrated-Approach-DAN.pdf

HEALING LYME DISEASE: An Integrated Approach to Curing Chronic Infection by Daniel A. Kinderlehrer, M.D. (2004)

============================

http://www.dancingviolets.com/media/pdf/LymeDisease.pdf

Chronic Lyme Disease and Co-infections: Clinical Overview (by Rebecca Snow, MS, RH (AHG), CNS, LDN)

================

It's very important to have this book as a reference tool for self-care and support measures. It answers so many questions in detail that is impossible here on the forum.

http://tinyurl.com/6lq3pb (through Amazon)

THE LYME DISEASE SOLUTION (2008)

- by Kenneth B. Singleton , MD; James A. Duke. Ph.D. (Foreword)

You can read more about it here and see customer reviews.

Web site: www.lymedoctor.com

========================

http://tinyurl.com/5vnsjg

Book: Healing Lyme: Natural Healing And Prevention of Lyme Borreliosis And Its Coinfections - by Stephen Harrod Buhner

website: http://planetthrive.com/2009/08/buhner-healing-lyme-program/

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http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/86857

Topic: Buhner Healing Lyme Q & A links

Familiar with Buhner's work:

http://watercourse-way.com/lyme.html

Natural Healing for Lyme Disease

================

http://tinyurl.com/5drx94

Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine - by Dr. QingCai Zhang, MD & Yale Zhang

web site: try www.sinomedresearch.org and use "clinic" and then "clinic" for the passwords or call Hepapro through www.hepapro.com

========================

http://www.steveclarknd.com/LymeDisease.htm

Your Path to Wellness - Lyme disease (by Steve Clark, ND)

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RAIN-TREE (Amazon Rain Forest focus)

(800) 780-5902; email: [email protected]

Main site: http://www.rain-tree.com

Best to also read the book: Healing Power of Rainforest Herbs -- by Leslie Taylor, ND - available at their site.

Customer reviews of this book can be read through this link over at Amazon (BOOKS): http://tinyurl.com/ye5bxqw

======================

http://www.rain-tree.com/spiro-extract.htm

SPIRO Extract (from RAIN-TREE)

A synergistic formula of 6 rainforest botanicals which are traditionally used in South America for syphilis (a type of spirochete bacteria) and other bacterial conditions.* This product was featured in an article by the Health Sciences Institute (see page 4).

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http://www.kroegerherb.com/index.php/products/combinations_product/2446

SPK Formula (Formerly Spiro Kete)

Ingredients: Nettle leaf, Yerba santa, Goldenrod, Monolaurin, Tobacco leaf. Other Ingredients: Vegetarian source capsule.

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www.townsendletter.com/FebMar2006/lyme0206.htm

February/March 2006

BIOCHEMISTRY OF LYME DISEASE: BORRELIA BURGDORFERI SPIROCHETE / CYST

============

Methods mentioned in the article above:

http://www.beatinglymedisease.blogspot.com

http://www.hansacenter.com

Book & Author's Blog: Beating Lyme Disease by David Jernigan

And, the personal link posted above by Gary:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/89968

======================

COWDEN PROTOCOL combination tinctures are not included here. That's easily found through Google.

=======================

RIFE MACHINE

http://www.lymebook.com/lyme-disease-rife-machines-bryan-rosner

Book: Lyme Disease and Rife Machines by Bryan Rosner

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http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/88778

RIFE Support Discussion Thread

-===================

See the "Secondary Porphyria" post first.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/91842?

PORPHYRIA Thread

======================

LIVER SUPPORT LINKS are 3/4 of the way down the page here:

Specific for LYME patients - lots of details about ears and what can help:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=065801

Topic: TINNITUS: Ringing Between The Ears; Vestibular, Balance, Hearing with compiled links - including HYPERACUSIS

-=======================

www.townsendletter.com/FebMar2006/lyme0206.htm

February/March 2006

BIOCHEMISTRY OF LYME DISEASE: BORRELIA BURGDORFERI SPIROCHETE / CYST

============

Methods mentioned in the article above:

http://www.beatinglymedisease.blogspot.com

http://www.hansacenter.com

Book & Author's Blog: Beating Lyme Disease by David Jernigan

And, the personal link posted above by Gary:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/89968

========================

COWDEN Protocol is also one some lyme patients use. Google for details or see past threads.

=========================

Incorporating TEASEL root:

An Overview of Lyme and Coinfections from a Treating Herbalist (by Wendy Snow)

http://tinyurl.com/yh6w892

Note -- The document is 81 pages long so it may take a couple of minutes to load.

=========================

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/pubmed

PubMed Search for Medical Abstracts (for pharmaceuticals, herbals and other nutritional supplements)

=================

ADJUNCT SITES for herbal study:

Not at all about lyme, but a good site for articles about supplements:

www.vrp.com

In their search bar, just pull down from products to articles for access to a fabulous library backed with solid research citations for every article.

=================

More specific to herbs and how they work in the body. GREAT BASIC BOOK just not about lyme (other than the page on Sarsaparilla):

The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook (Tillotson, et.al.)

http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/one-earth-herbal-sourcebook/

===================

www.itmonline.org

ITM - Chinese Medicine research site
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Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
 
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Ah, hah ! I found it. But be sure to ask your LLMD.

Just a couple results from a Google Search for : "Milk Thistle" child
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http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400648/Is-Milk-Thistle-OK-for-Children.html

From website of Andrew Weil, M.D.

Q: Is Milk Thistle OK for Children?

Excerpt:

. . . I see no reason why your son shouldn't be able to take milk thistle (Silybum marianum), . . .

. . .The correct dosage for children is 5-10 mg per kilogram of body weight per day. . . .

=========================

http://www.raysahelian.com/milkthistle.html

Milk Thistle supplement with silymarin, benefits and side effects, use for liver health, the right dosage by Ray Sahelian, M.D.

Abstract: Randomized controlled trial of silymarin treatment in patients with cirrhosis of the liver.

Hepatol. 1989 Jul;9(1):105-13.


. . . Analysis of subgroups indicated that treatment with silymarin in milk thistle was effective in patients with alcoholic cirrhosis and in patients initially rated 'Child A' . . .

====================

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/pubmed

PubMed Search for Medical Abstracts:

Milk Thistle, child - 4 abstracts

Silymarin, child - 23 abstracts

======================

A Google cross-search for this combination finds more results:

Silymarin, children, dose

The best result from that:
---------------------

http://www.nutrasanus.com/milk-thistle.html

Milk Thistle Herb

Excerpt:

Dosage Recommendations

The suggested dose of milk thistle is generally 12 to 15 grams of dried herb (200 to 400 mg silymarin) per day or silymarin-phosphatidylcholine complex 100 to 200 mg two times per day.

For liver protection, 120 mg silymarin (about 2 capsules) two times per day. For liver damage from alcohol, drugs, or chemicals, the recommended dosage of silymarin-phosphatidylcholine should be increased from two times per day to three times per day.

[CHILD] Adjust the recommended adult dose to account for the child's weight. Most herbal dosages for adults are calculated on the basis of a 150 lb (70 kg) adult. Therefore, if the child weighs 50 lb (20 to 25 kg), the appropriate dose of milk thistle for this child would be 1/3 of the adult dosage.
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Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
 
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To calm tics - in addition to magnesium whether through supplements of Mag. Glycinate/Citrate or a packet as "Natural Calm" or Epson Salts baths (WARM - not hot) . . . and calcium and maybe also taurine : consider glycerine tinctures of: Milky Oat Seed; Scullcap; and Tulsi (Holy Basil)

you can find these at www.vitacost.com or www.iherb.com

Look for a GLYCERIN tincture (alcohol free) for child.

Eclectic Institute's site also has some glycerin tinctures as does Herb Pharm's site. Both are top sources.

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From "The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook" (Tillotson, et.al):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

PubMed Search:

Scullcap - 9 abstracts

http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/important-herbs/scullcap-skullcap-scutellaria-laterifolia.html

SCULLCAP (Skullcap / Scutellaria laterifolia)

. . . Scullcap tincture is an excellent and extremely reliable nervine. It relaxes and strengthens the nervous system in a manner that can be felt within thirty minutes. . . .

. . . It is strong enough that it will calm anxiety in fairly serious situations, . . .

According to King's American Dispensatory, Scullcap "is tonic, nervine and anti-spasmodic,'' and ``it has proved especially useful in chorea, convulsions, tremors, intermittent fever, neuralgia, and many nervous affections.

In all cases of nervous excitability, restlessness, or wakefulness, attending or following acute or chronic disease, from physical or mental overwork, or from other causes, it may be drunk freely with every expectation of beneficial results.

When its soothing effects have ceased, it does not leave an excitable, irritable condition of the system, as is the case with some other nervines" (Felter and Lloyd, 1898).

Dried scullcap, commonly found in over-the-counter herbal preparations, is basically inert, and therefore useless. The related Chinese herb scute root is more anti-inflammatory and less calming in action.

click tab at link to see references

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http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/important-herbs/milky-oat-seed-avena-sativa.html

MILKY OAT SEED (Avena sativa)

. . . Milky oat seed is sweet in taste, and mildly stimulating and cooling in action. It restores strength to the nervous system when exhausted . . .

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http://herb-pharm.com/index.php?action=viewglycerites

Herb Pharm has both Milky Oat Seed and Skullcap in Glycerin tinctures. I did not see Holy Basil (Tulsi) there.

If you have a Lyme Literate ND (naturopathic doctor) or LL L.Ac. (acupuncturist) near you, that would be best for supplement help if your LLMD is not on that page. Ask your LLMD and also local lyme support group for suggestions.

You can also search your state licensing site for NDs and L. Ac.s and then inquire of each individually if they are familiar - and then - intimately knowledgeable of ILADS.

They need to be ILADS-educated or they simply won't be much good for a lyme patient as lyme just changes so much and there is so much difference from treating a regular patient than in one with lyme - even if just for support measures

Good luck.
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[ 07-04-2010, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
 


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