i just wanted to ask u, which bug causes these petechial "rashes"... small red dots. i have these on my chest, about 10 pieces... on my back there are 20-30 pieces. i didnt have them before i got sick... can someone tell me, which bug is causing it?
im positive for borrelia and bartonella.. but after 14 months of constant treating, the last 1/2 year especially bartonella/blo (with tavanic/bactrimDS/doxy 3mos and then Rifampicin/Bactrim 3mos), im still suffering with brain fog. its hard to describe.. somewhere i have the feeling.. wohoo.. there isnt much left to be healthy again.. but on the other side there are still my cognitive symptoms:
- headaches, frontal, but often too like someone would squeeze my head on both sides - emotional lability - confusion - vivid confused dreams (every night) - memory loss - concentration problems
other symptoms include:
- strange skin color pale/sometimes yellowish (i have no trouble with my liver, all results are fine!!) - anorexia - weight loss (actually gaining due sports and much food (im eating, even when im not hungry)) - sweating (is better now, was very extreme at the beginning) - sometimes hot flashes - i have NO musclepain (only after workout), no joint pain - my cd57 is at 250-400 (range: 60-360)
word finding etc is a lot better now then on the beginning!!
these small dots are really RED.. it doesnt look very red on the pictures.. bad camera (mobile phone)
greetz
Posted by Florence1 (Member # 22960) on :
bartonella i think......ive had a few LLMD told me its bart making itself known............
Posted by cleo (Member # 6646) on :
I have always heard that they were caused by chlamydia pneumonia because it is a vascular illness. I have them as well as my husband and we are both positive for cpn.
Posted by daniel (Member # 22201) on :
i was tested for chlamydia pneumonia three times, always negative... i have read that the small red dots are caused due bartonella or babesia.. but i couldnt figure out which bug its really causing.. Posted by julielynne4 (Member # 20336) on :
I have heard bartonella as well. My husband has these and although he has not been tested and he does not see an LLMD, I believe he has bart because of all of his other "bart marks" and the fact that I have bartonella.
Posted by elizzza811 (Member # 24713) on :
Have you considered the possibility that which bug it is might not be as important as what it is that is causing this bug to misbehave and burst blood vessels and avoid being clobbered by the immune system to begin with?
Your cell phone might be the culprit. Microwaves open up the blood-brain barrier. In my opinion, Lyme, bart, babs...none of these would be seriously debilitating bugs if we weren't giving them the advantage by bombarding our bodies with microwaves 24/7. Even those who don't use a cell phone (I'm one of them - I never owned a cell phone, and I gave up my cordless phone several years ago) are being bombarded due to area cell phone masts.
And then there is the most personal evidence of all: ``My home in Cobourg is clean. I went for a walk outside, in a clean environment; no towers nearby. I took a sample of my blood -- a pinprick -- and put a drop on a slide. The red blood cells were all spaced out evenly.
``Then I got a cell phone and made a call. I kept the phone on for five minutes, and tested myself again.''
This time, the red blood cells were lined up in a more orderly fashion; this is known as the Rouleau formation, a non-specific indicator of disease, often present during chronic inflammation or physical stress.
Posted by jwall (Member # 22999) on :
LLMD said bartonella. I have the same red dots on my abdomen (they are really noticeable as I am fair and have no other marks), lots on my shoulder blades, and am noticing more on the inside of arms. I develop more and more everyday.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
I agree that it is bartonella. You are treating it so hopefully something will begin to work for you. I think some of these skin "things" let us know we are still infected even when we feel pretty good otherwise.
Posted by daniel (Member # 22201) on :
mhh strange, i have none real bartonella-strech marks.. nowhere.. only these small dots.. some ppl here describe them with babesia, some with bartonella.. the thing is, that i treatet bartonella with the following protocol(s):
that are 10 Months!!!!!! of Bartonella/BLO Treatment.. but improvement always was very slow! now i am at a point, where i can say.. that there is no more improvement anymore.. it doesnt go on. so im searching for new options/bugs.
Posted by daniel (Member # 22201) on :
they doesnt hurt, they are only there
Posted by Dekrator48 (Member # 18239) on :
daniel,
I have the same small red dots...maybe 10 of them on my abdomen and chest.
My husband also has some on his abdomen and chest.
I do not know the offending pathogen.
I have lyme and was IgG pos for Bart and neg for Babs.
Posted by Marrit (Member # 25454) on :
Those look like cherry angiomas. Lots of people have them, and the older you get, the more you tend to have. One doctor told me if you have A LOT of them, it COULD be a sign of liver damage. They can be lasered.
Posted by zil (Member # 12048) on :
Bartonella is what my LLMD said. I have a couple hundred of the pinpoint red - abdomen, upper thighs and inner arms. I have 2 on my chest that are a bit bigger like a tiny red mole.
Posted by daniel (Member # 22201) on :
@dekrator48 what symptoms do u have???
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Bleeding under the skin (Petechiae) can be associated with babesia too.
My non-LLMD said she associates it with edema. I suppose a number of things could cause it.
Terry I'm not a doctor
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
i have a ton and i mean a ton of these. mostly on my legs, a couple of larger ones on my stomach.
i hate wearing shorts or anything because i have soooo many.
and yep, my doc said older people get this. ha!!!!
Posted by mjbucuk (Member # 843) on :
here is what I have learned: if they are small bruises under the skin (petechiae) then they will not fade when you push on them... petechaie are babesia. . On the other hand at our house we do not have petechiae, instead we all have small red dots which fade when pushed on... they are from bartonella creating a new capillary. Ours are at the center of a small white circle.
[ 08-01-2010, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: mjbucuk ]
Posted by karenl (Member # 17753) on :
randibear, please read cpnhelp.org. You also have other symptoms of chlamydia pneumonia ...
Also you reported something about your mother having the bigger red dots - cpn is congenital. And you are not getting better - you need the cpn protocol ( as complicated as lyme). It has nothing to do with age, they all go away with treatment. No reason you suffer, the initial cpn treatment works fast.
Posted by kidsgotlyme (Member # 23691) on :
My daughter has these little red dots on her legs. They itch her really bad sometimes.
Does anybody else have them where they itch? I don't think a 14 year old can get shingles. Plus, they don't hurt, they just itch.
Posted by daniel (Member # 22201) on :
@mjbucuk i dont understand your post, first you say that petechiae are from babesia.. then u say they are from bartonella?! mine dont fade if i push on them.
if u get older u get these?? ok.. but im only 25 years "old" .. i didnt have anyone until got sick
look @kidsgotlyme ... 14 year old daughter and have these too..
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
I have some, and I have just Lyme, no babs or bart. Someone above said it might be linked to liver. Could it also have nothing to do with any infection at all? Guess we don't know enough about what causes them to tell.
Posted by Tammy N. (Member # 26835) on :
Thank you Daniel for this post, and everyone else who has replied. I have quite a few of these spots myself and have been wondering what the heck they are. I am going to take it up with my LLMD. There shouldn't be any danger in having them removed at some point, right?
Posted by Marrit (Member # 25454) on :
If they're bright red, stick up, and are smooth in appearance, they are MOST likely cherry angiomas. Here's some pictures:
It seems the control group featured some subjects with cherry angiomas but none of these individuals tested positive for Bart. However, PG does seem to have some correlation to Bart infection.
To me, yours seem to be cherry angiomas. However, no one really knows what causes them so could be an infection...maybe BLO, Babs, etc....
Posted by been (Member # 23127) on :
I have them too. I mentioned this to you in this thread:
daniel, I edited my post above. Hopefully my post is easier to understand now.
Posted by Katrina (Member # 15236) on :
Daniel,
I also had these small bright red dots on my skin. I went to see Dr. S. and he did not think they were related to bartonella. He did a complete skin exam. I did test positive for babesia duncani however. Then I went out to California and saw Dr. H. who noted that they were a result of babesia. He said it was a classic babesia marking.
If you have treated the other coinfections and are not yet fully recovered you might want to consider babesia as a coinfection.
Katrina
Posted by Amelia (Member # 17677) on :
Hi Everyone: I have these too. And, I have wondered what they were. Mine lay flat down - not raised at all and are the size of a pin prick for the most part.
They are mostly around the bite area and my abdomen. So babs... Thanks Katrina for your feedback-- this is very helpful.
Posted by lightparfait (Member # 22022) on :
Babesia,your pictures are clasic babs. Pinhead red raised bumps, under skin, that do not itch, are just present individually on the turnk and thighs mostly and feel very raised against our touch. Not flat. Not blood blister type. Not itchy in clusters.
Other types of red bumps indicate other issues...
Thanks for posting your pictures so others know the difference.
Posted by IckyTicky (Member # 21466) on :
Those look like "red moles". My dermatologist told me mine were just normal... but my last LLMD visit he asked me about them (I have them mostly on my chest) and he told me that if you biopsy one of those and look at it under darkfield microscopy you'll find spirochetes every time. He told me it's a number 1 significant indicator of Lyme in his opinion.
Posted by 17hens (Member # 23747) on :
Katrina said
"I also had these small bright red dots on my skin. I went to see Dr. S. and he did not think they were related to bartonella. He did a complete skin exam. I did test positive for babesia duncani however. Then I went out to California and saw Dr. H. who noted that they were a result of babesia. He said it was a classic babesia marking."
----------------------------------
Katrina,
were the red spots like a flat pin prick or a raised red bump? I believe Daniel shows both in his pics so I wasn't sure which one you were referring to.
I have the flat red dots, like pin pricks, on my upper arms and chest, so you've got my attention.
Posted by daniel (Member # 22201) on :
thanks so much everyone 4 response! my babesia test always was negative.. but i have a few symptoms which could be from babs.. now i really think that i have a babesia infection because of your responses. i will talk to my llmd and start babesia treatment in 1 week. thx to all! Posted by applewine (Member # 26220) on :
Daniel,
I believe that petechia are a side effect of either Bactrim or Refampin. I was looking up side effects and those are both listed as causing petechia.
I started to get petechia several weeks into taking the antibiotics. At the time I thought it was the infection like you and my doctor said, but now year later I've looked up the side effects.
What antibiotics were you taking when you developed the petechia?
Posted by Judie (Member # 38323) on :
If they're itchy, I'd say allergic reaction (could be to fleas, med or something else).
Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever causes red dots. It's one of my many coinfections with Lyme. You can have a little or a lot of dots.
You don't need to be in the Rocky Mountains to get infected with it.
[ 04-04-2014, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Judie ]
Posted by jupiter76 (Member # 37697) on :
bartonella stimulates the growth of small blood vessels by increasing VEGF. So i.m.o. the raised and blood filled looking "dots" are caused by some sort of bart that stimulates blood vessel growth.
Babesia does not stimulate VEGF as far as I know. but babesia or similar protozoa causes bledings under the skin and i.m.o. the red dots which are not raised and much smaller looking like needle pricks filled with brightly coloured blood and seems to be in but not rally on the skin,
I believe that this is some protozoa. I tested positive for significant biofilm by frylab and as well antibiotics from the "floxacin class" lik factive, avalox and so on did not so much.
what helped was lovenox and from tome to time azi+plaquenil, praziquantel, rizol oils, tinidazole oral and flagyl i.v. Clindamycin helped as well significantly. Artemisin helped as well, Coartem I think so but actually treating (2. round)
I would do the biofilm frylab test and if there is much then treat against protozoa and biofilm agressive with lovenox, rechtsregulat (a german product)....
I you have signficant allergies and histamine intolerance this is a sign of parasitic infection more than just bacteria.
hope this may help a bit.
try sida acuta from woodlandessence. makes me really herx.
[ 04-22-2014, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
Daniels post is 4 years old. Hopefully he got over whatever was causing it but this is a lot of good information Jupiter, in case someone else is wondering which infection causes it.
Posted by Nancy L (Member # 42733) on :
I have noticed these red spots (not the pin-prick, but slightly larger) on my stomach.
Then I saw a picture of my type spots on an internet entry and the girl said that they were a definite sign of babesia, and that they are mostly on the stomach/chest and back.
Senile angiomas are different. I have a few elsewhere pre-lyme and they are age-related.
These are more in a group on one side.
Mine are not allergy-related as I have not been taking antibiotics or prescription drugs.
Hope from something besides this babesia (or other co-infection) and that the internet entry was wrong.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
looks like you have a lot of responses here, but just came across this while searching for Bartonella symptoms:
"Petechiae (puh-TEE-key-e) — tiny purple or red spots on the skin, whites of your eyes or inside your mouth "
and these symptoms were listed for Endocarditis which I found after searching for bart symptoms.
Anyone with pin prick dots who also has mast cell activation syndrome or histamine intolerance?
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by jupiter76: Anyone with pin prick dots who also has mast cell activation syndrome or histamine intolerance?
- That may be me. I don't have very many. They don't bother me at all.
Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
I have a bunch of the red dots spread apart from one another. I have a friend who has Grave's Disease, but not Lyme Disease. She has a bunch, too, and thinks it is a combo of aging and autoimmune problems--not just Lyme and co-infections.
You would not know she has any illness.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I read recently that aging can be part of it.
Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
Also, Stephen Buhner mentioned in his book that mycoplasma can cause these as well.
I also heard that aging may be a reason, too.
I think all the above, bartonella, lyme, CPN, and babesia may cause them as well.
Conclusion: you cannot diagnose yourself on the presence of these blood blisters alone.
Posted by Jamers (Member # 28016) on :
Does anyone know if the presence of the small red dots and blotchy skin are related to Bart? My skin looks purple and is blotched with paler spots. Also, I have an increase in wrinkles, moles, freckles, and stretch marks (not like a bart rash).
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
Jamers, is that cigarette Paper Skin?
I have this, but is going away with treatment
Posted by Jamers (Member # 28016) on :
Lisa, I have never heard of that term...how would you describe it? What treatment is helping?
Posted by bla (Member # 42361) on :
Has anyone considered this might be just another symptom of Lyme, it's self? I've had petechial type rash since I was bit by the tic that gave me LD. Over time, I have developed what is now being termed "morgellons disease," (a skin disorder where skin lesions develop and are slow to heal). I think the petechial rash developed into morgellons, which was recently discovered to be a result of the Lyme bacteria, bb.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
ACA is a manifestation of late stage chronic European Lyme from B. afzelii. It is usually only found in Europe, and rarely in people with European heritage in the US.
I found this on MEdscape- you can see link for more::
"ACA is the only form of Lyme borreliosis in which no spontaneous remission occurs. Its pathophysiology is not yet fully understood. ACA appears to be associated with long-term persistence of Borrelia organisms in the skin; several nonspecific reactions, together with a specific immune response, may contribute to its manifestations.
The persistence of the spirochetes despite a marked cutaneous T-cell infiltration and high serum antibody titers may be connected with the following factors:
Resistance of the pathogen to the complement system The pathogen’s ability to escape to immunologically protected sites (eg, endothelial cells, fibroblasts) The pathogen’s ability to change antigens, which may lead to an inappropriate immune response
Lack of protective antibodies, with a narrow antibody spectrum and a weak cellular response characterized by downregulation of major histocompatibility system (MHC) class II molecules on Langerhans cells, has been observed in patients with Lyme borreliosis.
A restricted pattern of cytokine expression in ACA, including lack of interferon gamma, may contribute to its chronicity. Cross-reactive antibody responses could take part in autoimmune damage, but whether autoimmune reactions play any role in the pathogenesis of the disease is unclear. The pathogenic mechanism of atrophic skin changes also has not been clarified. Perhaps periarticular regions are favored sites because of reduced acral skin temperatures or reduced oxygen pressure.
Lack of adequate or appropriate treatment of early Lyme borreliosis facilitates the development of ACA.
There is all kinds of info there. I personally suspect that this is more common in the USA than they realize.
I was told dr after dr to use more skin lotion. of course nothing like that helped.
My mom has it but she is in total denial about lyme even though she lives in a heavily lymed area in Virginia and has had some 30 KNOWN ticks since moving there 20 years ago. Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
I found this about BART- pin point red spots particularity on legs:
Easy or excessive bruising (purpura) — your skin naturally bruises and bleeds more easily as you age, but this shouldn't be confused with ITP
Superficial bleeding into your skin that appears as a rash of pinpoint-sized reddish-purple spots (petechiae), usually on your legs
Prolonged bleeding from cuts Spontaneous bleeding from nose Bleeding gums, especially after dental work Blood in urine or stools Unusually heavy menstrual flow Fatigue
Also mentioned here: "Do Bartonella Infections Cause Agitation, Panic Disorder, and Treatment-Resistant Depression?"::
I realize I'm late to the party, but gonna weigh in anyway. I also developed petechiae along with my illness (Lyme pos., doc suspecting Bartonella now as well), and these ones are not related to age. Extra wear and tear or rubbing/pinching of the skin can cause them once in a while in otherwise healthy people (you'll see them near your eyelids if you rub your eyes extra hard), but what most of the people on the board are referring to are spontaneously bursting capillaries in the skin. I'm not sure which organism causes them, but my guess is that's it a result more of inflammation and toxin release than a specific disease. This would explain the correlation with antibiotic use as well- inability of the body to detox quickly after the immune cascade caused by the meds leads it to try to expel toxins in any way possible, and sometimes by breaking capillaries near the skin surface. I noted that I got them more often when I otherwise could tell that my toxin load was high, and epsom salt baths seemed to draw out an especially large number of them as toxins close to the skin surface came through- it would always feel like a little pinch and then one of these would appear. Contrary to the age hypothesis, mine have grown fewer in number as time has gone on, primarily because I've learned to detox in other ways so that my body doesn't have to resort to such extreme measures. ***I will note that large numbers of petechiae are a clear sign of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, which can be fatal if not addressed quickly, likely because the toxin load in the body rises too quickly for the body to deal with it.
Posted by joemateo222 (Member # 47665) on :
mine definitely seem to increase as toxins are being released and my body is having trouble coping.
Posted by kms1990 (Member # 41700) on :
BARTONELLA! Galaxy Diagnosed 3 time blood draw with 21 PCR test I would recommend.
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