If anybody can share some information with me please. Is it possible to be tested negative for Lyme and positive for a co-infection of Lyme? Thank you
Posted by 17hens (Member # 23747) on :
Yes, absolutely.
Posted by LymeMom Kellye (Member # 24807) on :
My dh tested negative for Lyme, but positive for Bartonella and Erlichea.
I wouldn't trust any tests other than IGenix though, and even they come back negative you may have Lyme specific bands.
Many people don't test CDC positive for years if ever, but that doesn't mean they don't have Lyme.
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Yes, this is possible. However, since the tests are not very reliable, assume the person has lyme disease since they have a lyme coinfection.
When you begin to treat the lyme, you will likely notice a reaction to the medication, and that will be your proof of the lyme infection.
It would be highly, highly unusual for a person to have a lyme coinfection and not have lyme itself.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by TF: [QB] Yes, this is possible. However, since the tests are not very reliable, assume the person has lyme disease since they have a lyme coinfection.
When you begin to treat the lyme, you will likely notice a reaction to the medication, and that will be your proof of the lyme infection.
It would be highly, highly unusual for a person to have a lyme coinfection and not have lyme itself.
I agree for the reasons stated by TF.
Posted by comet 28 (Member # 27705) on :
I feel since there was no initial symptoms six years ago, I have investigated co-infections since seeing symptoms indictive of a co-infection listed on the site. Co-infections can be a result of Lyme but I feel there is a distinction between having Lyme and a co-infection, or is it one in the same? This is what the LLD needs to explain to me.
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Coinfections are diseases that frequently accompany lyme. So frequently, in fact, that Burrascano called all of these diseases together "lyme disease" or "the lyme disease complex" because that's how it is seen in patients in the real world. They don't just have one disease. Instead, they have many. And, these many diseases cause many other physical problems as well.
The most common coinfections are babesiosis, bartonella, and ehrlichia.
But, when people say Lyme disease, they are nearly always speaking of the one disease technically known as Borrelia burgdorferi.
From Burrascano Lyme Treatment Guidelines, page 3:
"WHAT IS LYME DISEASE? I take a broad view of what Lyme Disease actually is. Traditionally, Lyme is defined an infectious illness caused by the spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb). While this is certainly technically correct, clinically the illness often is much more than that, especially in the disseminated and chronic forms.
Instead, I think of Lyme as the illness that results from the bite of an infected tick. This includes infection not only with B. burgdorferi, but the many co-infections that may also result. Furthermore, in the chronic form of Lyme, other factors can take on an ever more significant role- immune dysfunction, opportunistic infections, coinfections, biological toxins, metabolic and hormonal imbalances, deconditioning, etc. I will refer to infection with B. burgdorferi as ``Lyme Borreliosis'' (LB), and use the designation ``Lyme'' and ``Lyme Disease'' to refer to the more broad definition I described above."
Lyme by itself, or a coinfection by itself, is rare.
Posted by comet 28 (Member # 27705) on :
I understand that some have been tested and are negative for Lyme but positive for co-infections. I can't be sure unless the test is done. That's what my intentions are to be tested, but in Canada long term antibiotics are not prescribed leaving me the option of homeopathy or US treatments...depending on the outcome of the tests.
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
You said, "I can't be sure unless the test is done."
You can never be sure of lyme and coinfections based on tests. That is the clear message of Burrascano. The tests are not that good for any of these diseases, so the doctor must make the diagnosis based on the patient's symptoms.
Here are some quotes for you:
"In Lyme Borreliosis, western blot is the preferred serologic test. Antigen detection tests (antigen capture and PCR), although insensitive, are very specific and are especially helpful in evaluating the seronegative patient and those still ill or relapsing after therapy. Often, these antigen detection tests are the only positive markers of Bb infection, as seronegativity [meaning a negative blood test] has been reported to occur in as many as 30% to 50% of cases. Nevertheless, active LB can be present even if all of these tests are non-reactive! Clinical diagnosis is therefore required." (page 5)
From page 7:
"DIAGNOSTIC HINTS Lyme Borreliosis (LB) is diagnosed clinically, as no currently available test, no matter the source or type, is definitive in ruling in or ruling out infection with these pathogens, or whether these infections are responsible for the patient's symptoms."
From page 4:
"An unfortunate corollary is that serologic tests can become less sensitive as the infections progress, obviously because of the decreased immune response upon which these tests are based. In addition, immune complexes form, trapping Bb antibodies. These complexed antibodies are not detected by serologic [blood] testing. Not surprisingly the seronegative patient will convert to seropositive 36% of the time after antibiotic treatment has begun and a recovery is underway."
You must realize that the Western Blot is going to miss up to half the cases of lyme disease. This is for many reasons such as: Western Blot is a test for lyme antibodies; if your immune system is fooled by the lyme hiding inside of your cells, you will not make any lyme antibodies. Therefore, you will test negative for lyme disease, even though you have it.
Also, the longer your are ill with this disease, the more weakened your immune system. Therefore, as time goes on, you make fewer and fewer antibodies to the disease. Therefore, you chances of testing positive get less and less even though you have lyme.
And, as Burrascano states above, the lyme antibodies you are producing can get trapped by immune complexes so that they do not show up in the lyme tests.
Finally, if your blood is not tested right away, it can clump and no lyme antibodies can be detected due to the clumping.
So, with this disease, the only way to be sure is to treat for all the diseases and see how you react to treatment. A good U.S. lyme doctor does NOT rely on the tests for these diseases. They will treat you if they determine you have lyme disease considering your history, symptoms, and reaction to treatment.
Because the tests are all so unreliable, many lyme doctors don't even bother with the tests. They just treat the patient for lyme, babesiosis, and bartonella based on experience with thousands of patients.